Diesel question

[Thumbcocker]

I have a diesel tractor that purrs like a kitten. (Ford 3000). I recently acquired an Oliver Super 55 that had been sitting for years. All the fuel lines were full of black goo and there was a ball of black goo about the size of a grape fruit in the fuel tank. The Oliver is at the mechanic for an overhaul so it is not the issue.

I have put a couple of tanks of gas station diesel through the Ford. I am now told this is a bad idea. I have access to "real diesel so I will cease using the bio stuff.

The question is what to do with the Ford? Should I siphon out the gas station diesel? Is there an additive I should put in? Any advice appreciated. Thanks

[rancher1913]

if its going to sit all winter you might want to at least put some howes diesel treat and let it run and mix otherwise I would not worry about it. by the way you do know that the ford injection system does not use the engines oil as a lube, it has its own reservoir and needs regular changing just like the engine. the bio diesel crap is more of a problem in hotter temps like summer because the bio stuff starts to grow and you end up with a situation like your oliver. even the real diesel has a percentage of bio in it.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thumbcocker, I'm not sure you are operating under good information.

Your statement, "I have put a couple of tanks of gas station diesel through the Ford. I am now told this is a bad idea. I have access to "real diesel so I will cease using the bio stuff." - leads me to believe that you think "gas station" diesel is somehow different than diesel.????

Diesel is diesel.
The term biodiesel refers to diesel substitute normally derived from vegetable oil but if you get right down to brass tacks, all diesel is "bio diesel" but some of it is 4 million year old "bio" diesel ;-)

There are some problems associated with bio diesel but most "gas station" diesel is not what is commonly called "bio diesel".
Gas station diesel, truck stop diesel, farm supply diesel, etc. is DIESEL.
And by the way, home heating oil is diesel, albeit with a higher wax content than road diesel. Marine diesel is diesel without the road tax. Off road diesel is ........wait for it........dyed diesel without the road tax.

People have a tendency to complicate this stuff. There really isn't as much mystery to diesel fuel as some claim.

So, unless the fuel in your tractor is somehow contaminated, just use it up as you see fit.

[BudRow]

I had a Case diesel backhoe for 30 years. I ran nothing but K-1 Kerosene in it. Never had a problem in any weather or all the years I owned it.

[Petrol & Powder]

When it gets cold, I'll mix some kerosene in with the diesel fuel to help it flow and prevent gelling.

The U.S.. military runs kerosene (actually JP-8) in a lot of its diesel powered equipment. This simplifies logistics but the engines run a bit hotter and the kerosene doesn't provide as much lubrication for the injector pumps. These issues are outweighed by the simpler logistics in combat zones as it reduces the need for separate fuels in the supply chain.

[rockrat]

Been using "gas station" diesel for decades. I do put diesel treatment in the barrel when I buy the diesel. No problems so far.

[Screwbolts]

The Black Goo is Black Algae, that grows in diesel Fuel. They do make an algaecide specifically to kill it. If you do not treat the Oliver's fuel system with the algeacide you will not get rid of it. Rebuilding the engine and new fuel filters will not rid you of the algea problem, you must kill it with algeacide sold by fuel suppliers.

The only difference in "gas Station diesel" and off road diesel / home heating oil is the red dye in off road fuel/heating oil to show it has been sold less road Tax.

If Gas station diesel was bad for your diesel tractor just think of all the diesel vehicles that use it. lol litterly, LOL, ROTFLOL

Ken

[rbuck351]

What screwbolts said.

[Evoken]

I run the same diesel in my tractors that I run in my truck. The "real" diesel around here is dyed and offroad use rated. It is dirty. Since I began using highway diesel in the tractors my glass bowl filters stay cleaner.
Like others have said, some treatment wont hurt either type anyway and helps clean the system up. Most of the treatments are just white kerosene I suspect anyway. Sometimes I will put a jug of cetane booster in the truck if I suspect I got dirty/weak fuel.

[Plate plinker]

Treat with a quality additive to kill algae and add cetane. Done! Higher levels of fresh biodiesel supposedly will grow algae faster.

[Tatume]

There is one important difference between current diesel and the diesel fuel older vehicles were designed to use. The sulfur content is lower. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) was introduced into United States in 2006, earlier in Europe. ULSD produces less harmful emissions. It also has reduced lubricity, and will cause some engine seals to shrink.

[Tatume]

The algaecide you need to keep your fuel system clean is available at most marinas and farm supply stores, as well as parts store such as NAPA. It is also available at Amazon and Walmart, but be careful to avoid swimming pool algaecide. When your diesel engine is in regular use algaecide is not needed. When it sits for a substantial length of time and accumulates water, then you need the algaecide. The algae grow on the water/fuel interface. They live in the water and eat the diesel fuel. The black goo is the dead bodies of the critters.

[MaryB]

Local farmer just got busted for running off road diesel in his pickup truck. He was bragging about it online in a forum and someone ratted him out to the feds... hefty fine and pay back taxes for 30 years of road use at 100,000 miles a year that he puts on his pickups, service records were pulled from the dealership and his purchase records of a new truck every 2 years showing the trade in mileage of the old one!

[WebMonkey]

gas station diesel (at least at my station) is highway 'legal' diesel and the 'other stuff' is 'for off-road use'.

an emission thing rather than a made from corn thing.

[SweetMk]

I have "some diesels",,,

https://i.imgur.com/sDxlghh.jpg

They are all for hobby use (not for making money)

My trick to keeping the fuel system clean,, is pretty simple, and I have been practicing it since 1982;

Keep the fuel tank topped off, especially in the winter.
Repeated temperature cycling (hot, cold, hot, cold,,,,,,,,,,,,) will draw moisture into the tank if there is air in the tank.

The liquid fuel can not thermally expand and contract as much as gaseous air does.

The algae needs moisture to grow,, fuel alone will not allow it to grow,,
(at least it will not grow in my moisture free fuel tanks!! :veryconfu )

Now, my system will not stop water from getting into the tank, if the water is purchased with the fuel.
For that, I have a special "filter-funnel",,

Supposedly, it works to separate the water from the fuel,,
I say supposedly, as in my case, after five years of use,
I have never seen any water left in the filter funnel after fueling a tractor.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000SOKE5E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

IT is a VERY fine screen, I can attest to that.
Even though it does not get very cold in Virginia,, the funnel "gelled" while using it on a cold day.
The fuel just stopped going through the funnel.
I waited for a slightly warmer day, and the fuel and funnel worked correctly.,,

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31lphKpbgcL._AC_.jpg

That same diesel ran perfectly in the tractor, even at a lower temperature,, so the gelling only occurred at the filter screen.

[drizler]

Local farmer just got busted for running off road diesel in his pickup truck. He was bragging about it online in a forum and someone ratted him out to the feds... hefty fine and pay back taxes for 30 years of road use at 100,000 miles a year that he puts on his pickups, service records were pulled from the dealership and his purchase records of a new truck every 2 years showing the trade in mileage of the old one!

Lesson learned DONT SAY THAT SORT OF STUFF ONLINE. I swear, people need a Miranda rights warning banner to sign onto those things[emoji849] .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bmi48219]

Thirty yrs ago off road diesel / #2 heating oil cost 70 cents per gallon delivered in July, but price doubled once the snow came. We would fill our 400 gallon in ground tank in July but needed 600 gallons to stay warm all winter. You could find K-1 at some gas stations for a buck a gallon year round. So I’d haul K-1 in 55 gallon drums to finish out the winter. Later I was given a 1,000 gallon in ground tank. That solved the home heating issue. After I purchased a JD diesel tractor I bought a 300 gallon tank on a stand to set next to the barn. Wound up putting a combo water separator-filter on it. Never had an algae problem with either tank.
I think condensation, especially in infrequently used mobile equipment, is the biggest cause of fuel algae. That’s why they recommend keeping your tank full.

[Dsltech1]

By gas station diesel I assume it was a 10-15% bio-blend? And by real diesel you mean a non blended fuel? 271024
A older fuel system probably won’t have any issues. Common rail fuel systems do not handle dropout well. With the bio-blend fuel after 30 days or so the fatty acids from the bio-diesel will begin to dropout. At first that only increases the potential for algae growth as the fatty acids absorb water like a sponge. Over longer periods that drop out will turn into a sticky red substance and smells similar to turpentine. I have yet to find a cleaner or solvent that will touch the red dropout that eventually forms. I have a couple pics. One is a gear pump on a high pressure pump. I can’t upload it. The other is a filter body from another failure. There’s some stabilizers that claim to prevent the dropout but I have no personal experience with them. Again a older fuel system probably won’t have any issues. Newer common rail system will usually see pump and injector failures once the fuel is old enough that the red dropout appears. 6 months is the earliest I‘ve seen dropout appear. Said dropout isn’t algae as some have mistaken it for. It cannot be treated with a algaecide. You will only see this with bio-blend fuels.

[leadeye]

I wonder what diesel will look like under the new green deal.

[MT Gianni]

I wonder what diesel will look like under the new green deal.

If Europe is our goal as being green we will be all diesel and no gasoline. Most cars and trucks in Europe are all diesel.

[samari46]

Power service puts out a diesel fuel supplement, cetane booster,stops fuel from gelling. Also Power service does a fuel and tank cleaner as well. And there is an additive that stops critters that live in diesel fuel called an algicide. I use all 3. Couple ounces in each 5 gallon jug of diesel I get at the local stop and rob. The algicide is most important as I live in Louisiana where my tractor may sit idle for as long as two weeks. My ship was an aircraft carrier and while making a Westpac cruise algae grew in the ships jet fuel tanks. After a few incidents all the tanks were checked and what they did we never found out. But the ship stunk like diesel and jet fuel for weeks. If I do not use the tractor for at least a month then the fuel tank gets a double dose of the three fluids previously mentioned,sounds like over killl but so far so good. My tractor is not a tier 4 where you cannot go below 1500 rpm in any gear. If you do then the exhaust system fills up with carbon and cost a grand to clean out. My Kubota L3800 regardless of gearing and speeds just keeps chugging along. mostly 2nd gear but will go through the gears just to make sure they work and lubricated. Frank

[EDG]

In WWII the US Army ran gasoline in their Sheman tanks used in Europe to simplify logistics.
The USMC in the Pacific used tanks with diesel engines because the US Navy used diesel in the smaller landing craft,


When it gets cold, I'll mix some kerosene in with the diesel fuel to help it flow and prevent gelling.

The U.S.. military runs kerosene (actually JP-8) in a lot of its diesel powered equipment. This simplifies logistics but the engines run a bit hotter and the kerosene doesn't provide as much lubrication for the injector pumps. These issues are outweighed by the simpler logistics in combat zones as it reduces the need for separate fuels in the supply chain.

[john.k]

Some diesel lasts OK without any additives......my old crane sat unused for 12 years,fuel in the tank was good enough to start it up again without cleaning the tank .....which has both rust and sediment from as long as Ive had the crane (35 years)....although a part of the injector pump was stuck from exposure to weather,I freed it up without dismantling the pump.

[metricmonkeywrench]

EDG Check your facts, most all of the USMC (and Army) equipment ran gasoline equipment up until Korea/Vietnam.

The standardized conversion from DF-2 (pump grade diesel) to the jet fuels (Jet A/JP5/JP8) happened for at least our vehicles about the time of the 1st Gulf War. Most vehicles didn't have any problem with the switch, the major difference is that the jet fuels have an anti-icing additives which is of no use to ground equipment, otherwise its nice clean kerosene. Some like the early HMMWVs and generators had some issues due to the type for fuel injector pumps they had. The short term solution was to add 10% or so of 10w oil to improve the fuel lubricity until industry was able to update the materials in the fuel pumps for the military.

[EDG]

Check your facts since you were not on Iwo Jima or some of those other islands with diesel Shermans.
The fact is there were 3 or 4 versions of the Sherman equipped with diesel engines and I have never heard of the Army using them.


EDG Check your facts, most all of the USMC (and Army) equipment ran gasoline equipment up until Korea/Vietnam.

The standardized conversion from DF-2 (pump grade diesel) to the jet fuels (Jet A/JP5/JP8) happened for at least our vehicles about the time of the 1st Gulf War. Most vehicles didn't have any problem with the switch, the major difference is that the jet fuels have an anti-icing additives which is of no use to ground equipment, otherwise its nice clean kerosene. Some like the early HMMWVs and generators had some issues due to the type for fuel injector pumps they had. The short term solution was to add 10% or so of 10w oil to improve the fuel lubricity until industry was able to update the materials in the fuel pumps for the military.

[Thumbcocker]

Lend lease Shermans going to the Soviets were diesel as well. the Soviet solution to diesel in cold weather was to add gasoline to it.

[Tatume]

The M4A2 Sherman tank was powered with a General Motors diesel engine.

271057
U.S. Marine M4A2 Sherman tanks of the 3rd Battalion advance inland from the beach on Iwo Jima, 1945.

[farmbif]

ive run my old ford 4000 diesel on bio and regular on road and also off road heating oil. no matter what fuel just add some of the additives with cetane or whatever is in them and change fuel filter every year or so. run my ford backhoe and little Yanmar on the same stuff and have yet to have a problem.

[Finster101]

Back in 80-83 once the temp hit a certain point we would add a prescribed amount of MO-GAS to the fuel on our M60A1,s. Always Ready!

[metricmonkeywrench]

EDG IO will take my thrashing appropriately... I'm an amphib guy and that bit of knowledge on the diesel Sherman's is now cataloged in my useless data repository for future use

[nicholst55]

EDG IO will take my thrashing appropriately... I'm an amphib guy and that bit of knowledge on the diesel Sherman's is now cataloged in my useless data repository for future use

My understanding is that virtually every engine that could be shoehorned into the engine compartment of a Sherman tank was utilized during the war, gas or diesel, to include some radial aircraft engines.

[Thundarstick]

Thread drift much?[smilie=l:

[Tatume]

As long as it's interesting. :-)

[Hossfly]

I keep all my tractor fuel tanks (Diesel) full to the top, just for the reason of moisture. Had one with a quart of water in bottom. Never again, it’s not easy to clean out.

[jonp]

Thumbcocker, I'm not sure you are operating under good information.

Your statement, "I have put a couple of tanks of gas station diesel through the Ford. I am now told this is a bad idea. I have access to "real diesel so I will cease using the bio stuff." - leads me to believe that you think "gas station" diesel is somehow different than diesel.????

Diesel is diesel.
The term biodiesel refers to diesel substitute normally derived from vegetable oil but if you get right down to brass tacks, all diesel is "bio diesel" but some of it is 4 million year old "bio" diesel ;-)

There are some problems associated with bio diesel but most "gas station" diesel is not what is commonly called "bio diesel".
Gas station diesel, truck stop diesel, farm supply diesel, etc. is DIESEL.
And by the way, home heating oil is diesel, albeit with a higher wax content than road diesel. Marine diesel is diesel without the road tax. Off road diesel is ........wait for it........dyed diesel without the road tax.

People have a tendency to complicate this stuff. There really isn't as much mystery to diesel fuel as some claim.

So, unless the fuel in your tractor is somehow contaminated, just use it up as you see fit.

No. On road and off road are not the same and off road is even dyed red to set it apart.

Now winter diesel is sold in the U.S. Already cut for cold weather if you are above a certain line. Here in NC we are right at it.

If you think your diesel is contaminated with water get a couple of bottles of 90% alcohol from walmart. One bottle in 100gal will drive the moisture out. I wouldn't worry about gelling of I were ypu. Water is the biggest problem in the winter. If you think the fuel is bad like algae contamination you have a problem. Drain the fuel and replace it and add an algae killer to the tanks. Have a number of fuel filters on hand as you are going to need them replaced till it's gone. Worst case is you have to remove the tanks and clean them.

Illinois should have winter diesel probably now but it doesn't get cold enough there to worry about gelling

[Tatume]

If you think your diesel is contaminated with water get a couple of bottles of 90% alcohol from walmart. One bottle in 100gal will drive the moisture out.

Sorry to disagree. Please pardon me.

Alcohol does not "drive the moisture out." It goes into solution with water. The engine must still run the water through the fuel delivery system and combustion chambers. Water is still damaging to the engine, though perhaps less so when diluted with alcohol. Also, alcohol rots fuel lines and causes gaskets to swell.

A much better solution is to install a fuel/water separator before a problem occurs.. These are usually made in combination with a fuel filter. My engines all have them. I once got a bad batch of fuel at a discount gas station. It filled the fuel water separator with water. I drained it, cranked the engine and filled it again, and repeated until the water was removed.

If a significant amount of water is already in the tank, two solutions are available. Both solutions also remove bio-sludge from bacterial growth in the tank (earlier I went along with the mistaken identity of the organisms as algae; they are in fact bacteria).

1. Call a fuel polisher. He will insert two hoses into the fuel tank. One pumps in, the other out. On his truck are large filters and fuel/water separators. He will run your fuel through them until it is cleaned.

2. Drain and remove the tank. Remove the fuel lines from the vehicle. Clean all thoroughly. Replace non-metal parts of the fuel system. Reinstall.

[rancher1913]

on road and off road are the same thing, they put the dye in the off road because no road tax has been paid on it and the dye will discolour the lines and can be used to prove a case of tax evasion. most construction and oil field companies run on road in everything because its cheaper to do the paperwork to declare that road diesel has been used off road and get a refund, than to pay the fines of a lazy worker getting them mixed up.

[Petrol & Powder]

No. On road and off road are not the same and off road is even dyed red to set it apart.

Now winter diesel is sold in the U.S. Already cut for cold weather if you are above a certain line. Here in NC we are right at it.

If you think your diesel is contaminated with water get a couple of bottles of 90% alcohol from walmart. One bottle in 100gal will drive the moisture out. I wouldn't worry about gelling of I were ypu. Water is the biggest problem in the winter. If you think the fuel is bad like algae contamination you have a problem. Drain the fuel and replace it and add an algae killer to the tanks. Have a number of fuel filters on hand as you are going to need them replaced till it's gone. Worst case is you have to remove the tanks and clean them.

Illinois should have winter diesel probably now but it doesn't get cold enough there to worry about gelling

This isn't my first rodeo with diesel equipment. Allow me to answer some of what was said:

No. On road and off road are not the same and off road is even dyed red to set it apart.
It's dyed to indicate it for TAX purposes. Off-road diesel is dyed so that it can be distinguished from On-road (taxed higher) diesel.
Although the sulfur content of Off-Road diesel may be higher than On-road diesel (and even that difference is disappearing as suppliers no longer carry high sulfur diesel), the primary difference is TAX.
Diesel is Diesel.



Now winter diesel is sold in the U.S. Already cut for cold weather if you are above a certain line. Here in NC we are right at it.

Yes, to a point. Even winter grade diesel will gell if it gets cold enough and the wax content of the fuel is high. There are a lot of variables in play and it's hard to make a sweeping accurate statement. Adding something to the diesel to help prevent gelling in extreme cold has been a common practice for about as long as we have had diesel engines. Gasoline or kerosene are commonly added by the end user. Fuel supplements are also used.

If you think your diesel is contaminated with water get a couple of bottles of 90% alcohol from walmart. One bottle in 100gal will drive the moisture out.


Tatume has already addressed this issue.
Diesel fuel does have an affinity for water and any significant amount of water in diesel will sink to the lowest point. That causes a few problems. First, water can freeze. No need to dive any deeper into that statement. Second, water isn't very good fuel for a diesel engine. In fact, it doesn't burn at all. Third, water does really bad things to injectors, injector pumps, steel lines, etc.
For all the above reasons, diesel fuel systems generally have some means to separate out any water that gets in the tank.
If you're lucky, the ambient temperature will be above freezing when you tackle that problem.

Dumping alcohol into a tank of diesel is not a good solution to removing water from diesel fuel.
In fact, since most alcohol has some water mixed with it, you can actually make the problem worse.

[Petrol & Powder]

on road and off road are the same thing, they put the dye in the off road because no road tax has been paid on it and the dye will discolour the lines and can be used to prove a case of tax evasion. most construction and oil field companies run on road in everything because its cheaper to do the paperwork to declare that road diesel has been used off road and get a refund, than to pay the fines of a lazy worker getting them mixed up.

It's also easier to fudge the paperwork and get a little more refund than you are due. :bigsmyl2:

[john.k]

As a slightly interesting aside.....BP ran a fleet of tankers on a 10% water /diesel emulsion for some years ,calling it "Green diesel".....purely a gimmick.....They were smart enough to only use the emulsion in old trucks nearing replacement.......The fuel was never allow to stand either,if the truck wasnt in continuous service ,the tank was emptied by a "vacuum sucker" ,and refilled by a special mix to purge the fuel system of water.........Using the emulsion actually was less efficient than pure diesel,as the power loss included energy lost in injecting inert (water) fuel...Just gimmick to pander to greenies.

[jonp]

Sorry to disagree. Please pardon me.

Alcohol does not "drive the moisture out." It goes into solution with water. The engine must still run the water through the fuel delivery system and combustion chambers. Water is still damaging to the engine, though perhaps less so when diluted with alcohol. Also, alcohol rots fuel lines and causes gaskets to swell.

A much better solution is to install a fuel/water separator before a problem occurs.. These are usually made in combination with a fuel filter. My engines all have them. I once got a bad batch of fuel at a discount gas station. It filled the fuel water separator with water. I drained it, cranked the engine and filled it again, and repeated until the water was removed.

If a significant amount of water is already in the tank, two solutions are available. Both solutions also remove bio-sludge from bacterial growth in the tank (earlier I went along with the mistaken identity of the organisms as algae; they are in fact bacteria).

1. Call a fuel polisher. He will insert two hoses into the fuel tank. One pumps in, the other out. On his truck are large filters and fuel/water separators. He will run your fuel through them until it is cleaned.

2. Drain and remove the tank. Remove the fuel lines from the vehicle. Clean all thoroughly. Replace non-metal parts of the fuel system. Reinstall.

Good discussion but I disagree with you but with this caveat. I didn't explain myself but truck drivers will get this. Alcohol separates the water from the fuel. The water is caught in the fuel bowl of the fuel filter where it can be easily drained off. All drivers up north know enough that when fueling, especially in the winter, to also open the petcock on the filter and drain off the water