Primer Shortage?

[Peregrine]

A good way to do that is to read G. Frost's book. That book was written about setting up and/or running an ammo factory for a profit. Great detail in it on using plates for both load cartridges and primers.

Do you have any more detail about this book? At least the title? Maybe a good anecdote out of it, it sounds interesting.

[Bmp4510]

https://archive.org/details/AmmunitionMakingNRAByG.Frost1990


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dtknowles]

Any die available for making small and large primer cups for Lee's hand or bench press?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Reused primer cups work fine. I don't understand the desire to make some from scratch.

Tim

[Four-Sixty]

Reused primer cups work fine. I don't understand the desire to make some from scratch.

Tim

I, myself, am not interested making primers from an economic standpoint. I am curious about learning the technique. I also don't want to rebuild primers with toy caps either. I would like to explore the chemistry of priming. I am willing to spend the time to learn the process - study the chemistry for example.

Having access to new cups would avoid the potential variance introduced by deformed cups that are "reformed" to near their original shape. I'd be OK to start with cleaning and reusing the anvils. But, I'd like to explore if they are in fact deformed to, or not, after a firing. If such a project sustains my interest I'd like to later explore making anvils to. I'm sure there is some degree of hazard involved in the process, but I believe I can put in place safe practices to manage the risks.

I know there are obstacles to manufacturing primers commercially, so there is some risk the supply won't be substantially increased soon. All the problems, issues or obstacles can be laid out, and solved one at a time. Increasing the supply of primers is within our reach.

Making primers would be an interesting study. I enjoy dwelling on the idea. There are plenty of other ways I can spend my time that yield either no benefit or joy to me.

The folks that sell the 22LR reloader kit also sell cups for reloading Berdan primers. They are expensive at $15 per hundred. So, having new manufacture cups available is not much of an obstacle.

[LAH]

I realized recently that I started loading just over fifty years ago. I know, young compared to some of you. I got started after the Gun Control Act of 1968.
If you want a preview of what might be coming, read the original act - bearing in mind that it did pass, as written.
That's the act that banned the sale of home cast bullets.

Can you tell us where in the 68 Act we can find the ban of home cast bullet sales? Would save me a lot of time looking.

[Burnt Fingers]

Can you tell us where in the 68 Act we can find the ban of home cast bullet sales? Would save me a lot of time looking.

The GCA of 68 outlawed the sale of ammo and components. It wasn't till the FOPA of 86 that this changed.

Also under the GCA of 68 dealers were required to check ID and log all .22 ammo and pistol ammo into a bound book.

[reddog81]

The GCA of 68 outlawed the sale of ammo and components. It wasn't till the FOPA of 86 that this changed.

Also under the GCA of 68 dealers were required to check ID and log all .22 ammo and pistol ammo into a bound book.

Ammo sales were banned from 1968 to 1986???

[Burnt Fingers]

Ammo sales were banned from 1968 to 1986???

Sorry, mail order sales.

[perotter]

Reused primer cups work fine. I don't understand the desire to make some from scratch.

Tim

I don't think he lives in the US and maybe doesn't have real supply of used primers.

[dverna]

Can you tell us where in the 68 Act we can find the ban of home cast bullet sales? Would save me a lot of time looking.

You can sell home made cast bullets but you need an ITAR certificate (over $2000) to do it legally. I was going to set up a small side business and stopped when I learned that. Not sure if an FFL is also needed, but $2000 killed it so I never went farther.

The fines are significant so unless you know the person, be careful you do not get caught up in a sting operation if you decide to sell bullets you made. There were rumors Trump was going to repeal some of the stupid ITAR stuff but it never happened and now it will never happen...at least in my lifetime.

I suspect even bartering would be deemed a sale. Just not worth it IMHO.

[Winger Ed.]

Ammo sales were banned from 1968 to 1986???

For mail order ammo---- and components, had go between FFLs back then.

That was why I got a FFL in 1982, was to buy reloading components from distributors that shipped USPS or UPS.
You couldn't buy brass, powder, primers, or bullets without one unless you were 'face to face'.

[Finster101]

You can sell home made cast bullets but you need an ITAR certificate (over $2000) to do it legally. I was going to set up a small side business and stopped when I learned that. Not sure if an FFL is also needed, but $2000 killed it so I never went farther.

The fines are significant so unless you know the person, be careful you do not get caught up in a sting operation if you decide to sell bullets you made. There were rumors Trump was going to repeal some of the stupid ITAR stuff but it never happened and now it will never happen...at least in my lifetime.

I suspect even bartering would be deemed a sale. Just not worth it IMHO.


Not to mention the liability insurance that you would probably need to carry.

[Lloyd Smale]

heck id make someone a great deal. Id sell spent primers for a 100 bucks a thousand and even pay shipping[smilie=w:

[dverna]

Not to mention the liability insurance that you would probably need to carry.

The liability insurance was not very expensive IIRC. It is not like ammunition where there is a higher risk due to errors in manufacturing.

[Conditor22]

I don't sell cast boolits, I sell boolit shaped lead ingots :guntootsmiley::bigsmyl2:

[dverna]

Strange story.

Over the last week I sold a huge portion of my primer inventory. The buyer was an interesting young man. Lieutenant in the Army and a competitive shooter...a good one who wins often. Last weekend he picked up the first load and yesterday the second load.

Yesterday I asked him why he was buying so much....was he buying for some of his buddies too? He said, "No, it is for my personal use." He told me how much he shot and I looked at him and asked, "Why are you paying four times normal pricing for a three year supply? Are you expecting a civil war?" He gave a sly smile and said, "If there is a civil war, I will be getting all the ammunition I need from the Army"

This guy was impressive. Cool, business like, and highly intelligent. He is stocking up for a long long time. He obviously does not believe a "normal" supply/price in the next couple of years. It was a bit unsettling. Made me wish I had held back another 30k.

I have about a 4 year supply for normal shooting activity and it would last a lifetime under SHTF (70 YO so no much chance of living long...LOL). Buying some stuff we want should the SHTF, but most will be saved so we can buy back when things get back to "normal" and wait for the next cycle. I figured it would take 2 years to get to "normal"...hope I am right. Like I said, it was unsettling...wonder what he knows.

[Bazoo]

He don't know nothing you don't. I knowed a guy who was ex army. He's passed now, but he was like 24 when I knowed him a few years ago. Long story short he told me there was talk of what would happen should they receive gun confiscation orders. He said the brass would go along with it but hardly any of the soldiers would. I was told there had been talk of liberation of equipment and munitions should such ever happen.

[ameenkitekar]

I don't think he lives in the US and maybe doesn't have real supply of used primers.Yes you are correct, I am from India. Primers can be reused, and we do that. Smokeless propellant is the main issue, we use powder from Shotgun cartridges. Is there anyone who can export 5 kg powder to India legally

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[tomme boy]

He don't know nothing you don't. I knowed a guy who was ex army. He's passed now, but he was like 24 when I knowed him a few years ago. Long story short he told me there was talk of what would happen should they receive gun confiscation orders. He said the brass would go along with it but hardly any of the soldiers would. I was told there had been talk of liberation of equipment and munitions should such ever happen.

The military just like the LEO's will do whatever they are told to do.

[kerplode]

The military just like the LEO's will do whatever they are told to do.

And the few that don't follow orders will be replace by others that will.

[perotter]

Yes you are correct, I am from India. Primers can be reused, and we do that. Smokeless propellant is the main issue, we use powder from Shotgun cartridges. Is there anyone who can export 5 kg powder to India legally

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Any legal export would have to have a needed paper work of both governments. So it wouldn't be a simple process.

Personally if I lived in India, I'd make my own smokeless powder. Best done with some kind of equipment to test pressure.

Given that India isn't a backwater, what would be needed would be available there. Equipment for testing pressure is now widely used in many industrial processes. As are the chemicals needed. Biggest problem is making a pure product.

[ameenkitekar]

Brother if you guide me with chemical formulation, procedure and the names of pressure measuring equipments for making smokeless powder, I will be obliged.
Dr. Kitekar

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[farmbif]

I don't know about primers powder or loaded ammo but I got a shipment of once fired brass confiscated by customs coming from another country.
I had no idea there could be a problem till I got a letter saying I need to show up at a hearing and can bring a lawyer if I wanted to claim the shipment of about 150 pcs of used brass.
so I imagine trying to ship something that is flammable or explosive needs special permits and licenses , probably reams of legal paperwork too.
if you want to create components I guess there must be info somewhere if you know what you're doing.
I would not want to try and tell someone how to make anything that could be an explosive, I'll willing to bet there are laws about that kind of stuff.

[Bazoo]

The military just like the LEO's will do whatever they are told to do.


And the few that don't follow orders will be replace by others that will.

I fear you're right, but I hope that there will be widespread defection.

[perotter]

Brother if you guide me with chemical formulation, procedure and the names of pressure measuring equipments for making smokeless powder, I will be obliged.
Dr. Kitekar

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

That is the brand I have. The hardware and the software is designed for ammunition.

Otherwise if I had to come up with something on my own more or less, I'd start with what is called a "Crimp Force Monitor". They are made for the presses used to put on the terminals for electrical connection in the wire industry. They are really more accurate than what I gave the link for, have good software, available on the used market, etc. But them I'm very familiar with them and would be staying with the devil I know.

As for the chemicals, it depends on the desired outcome. Longevity of the powder, how easy to make, desired use, cost, etc.

Ammonium nitrate ones are the cheapest and about simplest. There are some in the A&O book available are the arradvak website that is linked in these thread. Be sure to use one that is 7-10% potassium nitrate. Also I'd recommend adding 1-5% potassium dichromate-nasty stuff and DON'T get any on your body. Nasty but the best getting the desired mass burn rate. By the way, AN based ones have always been the holy grail of smokeless powder and is still being worked one.

There are several others that can be made besides those that are nitrocellulose based. Guanine based ones fairly simple, the chemicals needed are available in a store and what I'm currently looking into again.

But for normal nitrocellulose based powder, the simplest is to see if you can get actual lacquer as that is nitrocellulose. I normally add by weight 10% potassium nitrate or sometimes AN at a greater per cent. But the lacquer you buy would likely have urea in it to stabilize it, which over time creates voids in the grains and increases the burn rate. Therefore one doesn't want to wait to long before using it. IMO for DIY, a flake powder is best because it's the easiest to change burn rate by increasing the thickness or the size using the same equipment.

For nitrocellulose powder starting with just the base chemicals, one would need to really sit down and decide if it is needed. For example a shotgun/pistol powder is much easier to do than a full powered rifle powder. Also for a start read Urbanski's volume 2 book on making the base and what Mendeleev wrote on doing it, otherwise it can get very expensive to make.

Keep me up to date and let me know what you are thinking of doing.

By the way, I've mainly worked with AN based ones and of the 100-200,000 rounds I've loaded and shot only about 2000 have been done with DIY powders. Kind of like gasoline. I can't make other fuel to run an engine, but a lot simpler to buy gasoline or diesel for may needs currently.

[Scrounge]

The military just like the LEO's will do whatever they are told to do.

And you know that because? I've been retired for nearly as long as I was in, but I think you misjudge most of the folks in the current military. Yes, there are some who will go along, both military and police. There are also some who won't. I'm betting my life there are more of the "won'ts" than "will's."

[375supermag]

And you know that because? I've been retired for nearly as long as I was in, but I think you misjudge most of the folks in the current military. Yes, there are some who will go along, both military and police. There are also some who won't. I'm betting my life there are more of the "won'ts" than "will's."

Remember Kent State???
National Guard shot down unarmed college students because they were ordered to.
They will shoot you if ordered to...they would rather live with that than spend a large part of their life in Leavenworth.
Bank on it...

[ameenkitekar]

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

That is the brand I have. The hardware and the software is designed for ammunition.

Otherwise if I had to come up with something on my own more or less, I'd start with what is called a "Crimp Force Monitor". They are made for the presses used to put on the terminals for electrical connection in the wire industry. They are really more accurate than what I gave the link for, have good software, available on the used market, etc. But them I'm very familiar with them and would be staying with the devil I know.

As for the chemicals, it depends on the desired outcome. Longevity of the powder, how easy to make, desired use, cost, etc.

Ammonium nitrate ones are the cheapest and about simplest. There are some in the A&O book available are the arradvak website that is linked in these thread. Be sure to use one that is 7-10% potassium nitrate. Also I'd recommend adding 1-5% potassium dichromate-nasty stuff and DON'T get any on your body. Nasty but the best getting the desired mass burn rate. By the way, AN based ones have always been the holy grail of smokeless powder and is still being worked one.

There are several others that can be made besides those that are nitrocellulose based. Guanine based ones fairly simple, the chemicals needed are available in a store and what I'm currently looking into again.

But for normal nitrocellulose based powder, the simplest is to see if you can get actual lacquer as that is nitrocellulose. I normally add by weight 10% potassium nitrate or sometimes AN at a greater per cent. But the lacquer you buy would likely have urea in it to stabilize it, which over time creates voids in the grains and increases the burn rate. Therefore one doesn't want to wait to long before using it. IMO for DIY, a flake powder is best because it's the easiest to change burn rate by increasing the thickness or the size using the same equipment.

For nitrocellulose powder starting with just the base chemicals, one would need to really sit down and decide if it is needed. For example a shotgun/pistol powder is much easier to do than a full powered rifle powder. Also for a start read Urbanski's volume 2 book on making the base and what Mendeleev wrote on doing it, otherwise it can get very expensive to make.

Keep me up to date and let me know what you are thinking of doing.

By the way, I've mainly worked with AN based ones and of the 100-200,000 rounds I've loaded and shot only about 2000 have been done with DIY powders. Kind of like gasoline. I can't make other fuel to run an engine, but a lot simpler to buy gasoline or diesel for may needs currently.Thanks, i will be in touch with you. Need to understand many things as I am new to all these. +919920954250 is my WhatsApp number, if you dont mind ping me on it from your WhatsApp number.


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[1eyedjack]

Just left our local Bass Pro shop - may as well gone to a convenience store - zero except for 1 box of 41 mag & a few exotics entire ammo supply could have been stocked in a single 4' section !! A year ago they kept 5 aisles of ammo!! Handguns were non existent except for a few very high end pieces!!! Once lately saw a Pentecostal grandma buying a Glock until the salesman said "sorry I don't have any ammo to shoot it with" ....probably why BPS still had their handful of 1k plus handguns!!

[Blanket]

not worried at all about shooting like normal, sucks that I will have to load for doves as I have not loaded a 12 gauge shell for 20 years

[gbrown]

I went to Dick's in Bay Brook mall (2 hrs distance) this evening for some non shooting items. While the grandson was looking at his stuff, I wandered over to shooting stuff. Low and behold, they had some good pistols in stock, no ammunition, though. They also had some reloading dies, rifle, mostly odd stuff. I was able to pick 2 5 packs of 20 guage slugs for 6 bucks each.

[alfadan]

Remember Kent State???
National Guard shot down unarmed college students because they were ordered to.
They will shoot you if ordered to...they would rather live with that than spend a large part of their life in Leavenworth.
Bank on it...

When my dad was in the army around 1970, he talked to an army medic who said he treated guardsmen at kent state for small arms wounds like from a .22 rimfire, fired from a high elevation. Don't know if its true or not and can no longer get more details, but an interesting thought.

[Winger Ed.]

Remember Kent State???..

The news coverage back then wasn't anymore honest than what we see today when it comes to 'peaceful protesters'.
We're led to believe some Guardsmen saw a few kids walking down the sidewalk, and just shot them.

There was a whole lot more than that going on there, but like riot coverage today--it didn't 'fit the narrative'.

Unlike today:
If you weren't there, all you saw of the event was what short little clips and sound bites
the three news agencies felt like showing you.

Also, back then, it was a Viet Nam war protest.
The news agencies treated the War in Viet Nam about the same way they treated President Trump.

There wasn't any of that---
everybody has a camera, and uploads their video onto social media in 2 minutes.

[Scrounge]

When my dad was in the army around 1970, he talked to an army medic who said he treated guardsmen at kent state for small arms wounds like from a .22 rimfire, fired from a high elevation. Don't know if its true or not and can no longer get more details, but an interesting thought.

I was just a kid then, but it wouldn't surprise me. I know that some of the folks there, cops, civilians, and guardsman, say they heard gunfire from a distance. I heard & in some cases read those reports many years latter, though.

[perotter]

Thanks, i will be in touch with you. Need to understand many things as I am new to all these. +919920954250 is my WhatsApp number, if you dont mind ping me on it from your WhatsApp number.


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

I don't have anything like WhatApp, etc.

But last nite I remembered that most ping pong balls are made from nitrocellulose. About 10-12 years ago I tested using them for making smokeless powder. I haven't gotten out my old notes, so that is why I didn't remember them right away.

About 100-170 of them are needed to make a pound of powder, depending what's added. The cost here would range from $24 to $45 per pound of powder. Likely cheaper than buying shotgun shells for the powder.

[Burnt Fingers]

I don't have anything like WhatApp, etc.

But last nite I remembered that most ping pong balls are made from nitrocellulose. About 10-12 years ago I tested using them for making smokeless powder. I haven't gotten out my old notes, so that is why I didn't remember them right away.

About 100-170 of them are needed to make a pound of powder, depending what's added. The cost here would range from $24 to $45 per pound of powder. Likely cheaper than buying shotgun shells for the powder.

I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about sharing the stuff you're sharing.

[ameenkitekar]

I don't have anything like WhatApp, etc.

But last nite I remembered that most ping pong balls are made from nitrocellulose. About 10-12 years ago I tested using them for making smokeless powder. I haven't gotten out my old notes, so that is why I didn't remember them right away.

About 100-170 of them are needed to make a pound of powder, depending what's added. The cost here would range from $24 to $45 per pound of powder. Likely cheaper than buying shotgun shells for the powder.Here we get shotgun cartridge for 1.5 $ which contains 1.5 gm of powder that makes anything else much cheaper than shotgun shell option.
Please share your notes if possible on ameenkitekar@yahoo.co.in
Regards

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[perotter]

I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about sharing the stuff you're sharing.

Why? I've been sharing it for over 2 decades. What's changed?

[perotter]

Here we get shotgun cartridge for 1.5 $ which contains 1.5 gm of powder that makes anything else much cheaper than shotgun shell option.
Please share your notes if possible on ameenkitekar@yahoo.co.in
Regards

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

I'll post something here about the ping pong balls in the next few days. You will need a nitrate to have good success.

[Burnt Fingers]

Sharing information about explosives with random people on the internet, especially when you know they aren't US Citizens violates several Federal laws.

[perotter]

Sharing information about explosives with random people on the internet, especially when you know they aren't US Citizens violates several Federal laws.

Which Federal laws exactly? Also, what I'm posting about isn't even an explosive. My very first posts on this forum were about making smokeless power in a thread someone else started and was posting about it.

But if you could point me to these Federal laws I certainly won't post on the topic. Thanks in advance.

[Burnt Fingers]

Which Federal laws exactly? Also, what I'm posting about isn't even an explosive. My very first posts on this forum were about making smokeless power in a thread someone else started and was posting about it.

But if you could point me to these Federal laws I certainly won't post on the topic. Thanks in advance.

It's all covered under ITAR.

Sharing of information about propellents.

[Burnt Fingers]

It's all covered under ITAR.

Sharing of information about propellents.

BTW, you also endanger this forum by using it to share this information.

[MisterStyx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

I'm fairly certain the recipe for ammonpulver is considered public domain.

[fastdadio]

Sharing information about explosives with random people on the internet, especially when you know they aren't US Citizens violates several Federal laws.
10 years and 164 pages of info on making explosive propellants.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

[farmbif]

I'm sending my firecrackers and bottle rockets back to china

[jonp]

How did a simple primer question devolve into this? LOL, thread drift is alive and well.

"I noticed primers were out of stock"
"here is a recipe for making explosives"?????

[Conditor22]

:bigsmyl2::hijack::lol:

[gbrown]

Back to the thread. Looking at GB, all of the offers apparently are from entities that are comfortable shipping hazmat. Again, smell a rat. Pawn shops, LGS doing the selling rather to local people. Who else would be able to do this? I don't see individuals doing this. Just my take. Maybe I'm wrong, not sure.

[perotter]

It's all covered under ITAR.

Sharing of information about propellents.

Doesn't meet the following under IRAR: "Propellants that can sustain a steady-state burning rate more than 38 mm/s under standard conditions".

[jonp]

Huh. Well I was just outback powder coating some boolits and messed around on the shelving while the boolits were in the oven. Found a wooden crate in the back I'd forgotten I'd put there with over 20,000 primers in it. LPP, SPP, SRP etc. How about that? Also found the crate with powder I bought from Jeff Bartlett a few years ago but never used. 48lbs of AA8700 equivalent. Guess tomorrow I'll try duplexing some rounds up that Nobade helped me out with.

[Winger Ed.]

Found a wooden crate in the back I'd forgotten I'd put there with over 20,000 primers in it. LPP, SPP, SRP etc. .

Depending on who ya talk to, this primer shortage thing may just be a isolated, and local event.:bigsmyl2:

[tinhorn97062]

Sharing information about explosives with random people on the internet, especially when you know they aren't US Citizens violates several Federal laws.

Unless I’m reading it wrong, you seem to be correct in this statement.

ATF Federal Explosives Regs, Ch 40, Sec 842, paragraph (p): to paraphrase: “it’s unlawful to share information about how to make explosives”

From having to go through ITAR and Export Compliance training several times a year, due to my work involving Aerospace and Defense, I’m under a very reasonable assumption that sharing that kind of info is a bad idea, and especially with somebody who is a non-citizen. Even if nobody listens, good job in bringing up the point.

[jonp]

Depending on who ya talk to, this primer shortage thing may just be a isolated, and local event.:bigsmyl2:

8-) Who you talking about, Willis?

[rbuck351]

I think you have to look deeper to see what is an explosive and what is a propellant according to atf. I'm not sure why they would care about sharing something like formulas for explosives when you can google just about anything you want.

[perotter]

Unless I’m reading it wrong, you seem to be correct in this statement.

ATF Federal Explosives Regs, Ch 40, Sec 842, paragraph (p): to paraphrase: “it’s unlawful to share information about how to make explosives”

From having to go through ITAR and Export Compliance training several times a year, due to my work involving Aerospace and Defense, I’m under a very reasonable assumption that sharing that kind of info is a bad idea, and especially with somebody who is a non-citizen. Even if nobody listens, good job in bringing up the point.

Yup, you read it wrong.

[perotter]

I think you have to look deeper to see what is an explosive and what is a propellant according to atf. I'm not sure why they would care about sharing something like formulas for explosives when you can google just about anything you want.

Not only not reading all of the entire law and the related ones, many don't even read the entire paragraph they quote. Which has this in it:

"with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence; or"

There isn't really anything involved in making smokeless powders that hasn't been published. In this particular area of arms, the last thing the Fed courts have ruled is if it's been published already it can be passed on with the internet. I'm at a wizard and only ever came up with one new thing and that is in the field of primer compounds. When I seen the cost of the getting a patent the most I could hope for was somebody giving about what the patent cost as it costs 10's of millions of dollars to perfect to them commercial/military specs. So it put it into the public knowledge area including here on the this forum some years back.



I'm thinking of starting a thread on making it in the Special Projects area. But I'm still trying to decide if I should divert my time to do it. I've been laid up for the last few months and I'm way behind of things. But I'm getting my ducks in a row for a such a project.