.45-70 brass...

[tinhorn97062]

I use several different head stamps of brass, and have settled on R-P being my favorite.

W-W stamped brass seems to always want to split the neck on me after only a couple middle of the road loadings.

FC brass has next to zero neck retention.

Starline is a premium that I generally don’t get a hold of, but the few that I have seem to be on point with R-P.


Can anybody offer some insight as to why the different brass makers seem to have different qualities to them?


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[smithnframe]

I've been shooting and handloading the 45/70 for 48 years with all brands of brass and I've never had a neck split! The only problem I've had is with W-W bulk brass having nasty dents! I'm still loading brass I bought in 1972 with Elmer's 3031 load and 70 grain of blackpowder! Never lost a case.

[tinhorn97062]

I've been shooting and handloading the 45/70 for 48 years with all brands of brass and I've never had a neck split! The only problem I've had is with W-W bulk brass having nasty dents! I'm still loading brass I bought in 1972 with Elmer's 3031 load and 70 grain of blackpowder! Never lost a case.

Wow. On my R-P brass, I have some with more than 15 warm loadings.

Yesterday, I threw away (3) W-W cases. (2) were neck split, and the third had a split about a 1/3 of the way up from the rim, right where the powder charge would sit. I’ve never seen that one before.


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[edp2k]

Sounds like overworked brass.
Possibly your chamber is a bit on the "generous" side, and/or your dies are sizing the brass down a bit on the small side of the tolerances.

Consider annealing your brass to extend its life and minimize neck cracking.

[tinhorn97062]

Sounds like overworked brass.
Possibly your chamber is a bit on the "generous" side, and/or your dies are sizing the brass down a bit on the small side of the tolerances.

Consider annealing your brass to extend its life and minimize neck cracking.

But why would I see neck splitting in just the W-W brass? I’ve never had a neck split in any other head stamps.

And I do believe you’re correct about my gun having a fat chamber. Just for fun, I’ve pushed a boolit into an unsized case, and it’s pretty easy to get it down in there with my fingers.


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[webfoot10]

Tinhorn don't size your brass if using in one gun only. Just prime, drop in your
powder and filler if you use it, then insert your lubed bullet. If they will fit, push
them to desired depth. then run up in your sizing die with the sizing pin removed
just enough to lightly taper crimp the bullet. They should chamber just fine and
should stop the split cases. Try it can't hurt. Let us know you make out.
webfoot.

[Drm50]

The amount of copper in the cartridge brass can have a lot to do with it. I bough 100 Norma 44mg brass about 64 or 65. I’m still shooting about 25 of them. Couldn’t tell you how many times they were loaded. Hot 2400 loads too. Only had 200brass +or - back then. I have 45/70 brass that is 50+ yrs and don’t remember losing any. They have been fired in Trapdoors, RBs, and Rugers 1&3
Lite cast in the originals to 458 levels in Rugers. I notice that Rem brass in belted mags has shorter life than Win or Fed. The new Win White Box pistol Ammo has a more yellow than gold color and I think they are short stroking copper content. I’ve got several boxes from non loaders but haven’t loaded any yet.

[tinhorn97062]

Tinhorn don't size your brass if using in one gun only. Just prime, drop in your
powder and filler if you use it, then insert your lubed bullet. If they will fit, push
them to desired depth. then run up in your sizing die with the sizing pin removed
just enough to lightly taper crimp the bullet. They should chamber just fine and
should stop the split cases. Try it can't hurt. Let us know you make out.
webfoot.

I’m going to try that. I only shoot .45-70 in one gun, so it makes a lot of sense to do as you advised.


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[rockrat]

Possible too that your dies are overworking the brass a bit on the WW brass. It might have a bit thicker case walls. When you expand and flare the case mouth, does it seem a bit more pressure is needed compared to the other cases?

I did have a set of 38-55 dies that would size the brass way down and ended up setting the die so the case would just fit in the rifle with enough neck tension to securely hold the boolit.

Annealing the cases sounds like it might be a step in the right direction too

[EDG]

I have about 1000 45-70 cases and about 1000 more formed into 40-65 Win.
These cases are mostly WW and RP with about 100 Federal thrown in.

Of my 45-70 cases one old box of WW brass dates back to 1972. This box of brass has been fired about 30 times in 6 or 7 different rifles. A few of these loads were very high pressure loads with jacketed bullets in a bolt gun.
My most used rifle has a little chatter in the chamber walls where the chamber reamer was ran too fast. This chatter produces shallow striations on my fired brass. Of the 20 cases in my old box 16 are still going and 4 have burned through or split in the body about midway between mouth and case head. These burn thru/body splits occurred after 25 or so firings with full length sizing between.

Most of the case splitting issues came from my old 1972 resizing die. It resized the top 1" of the case an excessive amount. The splitting occurred at the bottom of this excessive sizing. This die was sizing for deeply seated 500 grain bullets.
A later manufacture date die reduced the amount of case sizing and it reduced the depth of the sizing to match the shorter bullets I was shooting.
I have never had a case mouth or neck split.
I find that Federal cases form to make 40-65s the easiest followed by RP. WW cases are the hardest. When annealed both the RP and WW form easily too. If you have case mouth splitting you need to anneal the cases and check your FL die to see if it is sizing your cases excessively.

[tinhorn97062]

I have about 1000 45-70 cases and about 1000 more formed into 40-65 Win.
These cases are mostly WW and RP with about 100 Federal thrown in.

Of my 45-70 cases one old box of WW brass dates back to 1972. This box of brass has been fired about 30 times in 6 or 7 different rifles. A few of these loads were very high pressure loads with jacketed bullets in a bolt gun.
My most used rifle has a little chatter in the chamber walls where the chamber reamer was ran too fast. This chatter produces shallow striations on my fired brass. Of the 20 cases in my old box 16 are still going and 4 have burned through or split in the body about midway between mouth and case head. These burn thru/body splits occurred after 25 or so firings with full length sizing between.

Most of the case splitting issues came from my old 1972 resizing die. It resized the top 1" of the case an excessive amount. The splitting occurred at the bottom of this excessive sizing. This die was sizing for deeply seated 500 grain bullets.
A later manufacture date die reduced the amount of case sizing and it reduced the depth of the sizing to match the shorter bullets I was shooting.
I have never had a case mouth or neck split.
I find that Federal cases form to make 40-65s the easiest followed by RP. WW cases are the hardest. When annealed both the RP and WW form easily too. If you have case mouth splitting you need to anneal the cases and check your FL die to see if it is sizing your cases excessively.

I’ve never annealed a case before, but it sounds like a pretty straightforward process. And it also sounds like a good first step that won’t do anything but help.

Thanks for all of the info guys...I appreciate the wisdom.


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[KCSO]

I had a set of Lee dies that would over size the brass. The finished round looked like a snake swallowing a rat. This with a 458 bullet.
I changed out to a Lyman sizing die and problem solved. If you use Starline brass it does need to be annealed first. If you keep your brass annealed it should last a minimum of 10 reloads and more like 25 or more. I have reloaded FA 1887 brass with no problems.

[EDG]

Annealing is pretty easy to learn. If you have any junk cases or any berdan brass you can practice without risking damage yo your shooting brass.

[nicholst55]

I was gifted a small handful of (extremely) used .45-70 R-P brass and some 300grain JHP bullets several years ago. I noticed immediately that some of the brass was marked with Dykem, and after careful examination noted that this brass was all split in the case head area. No idea how many times, what load(s) or gun(s) this was fired in. I also noticed that all of this R-P brass was significantly shorter than nominal length. Longer than Hornady's Leverevolution brass, but still shorter than normal. Has anyone else noticed short brass from Remington, or was I just uncommonly lucky?

[EDG]

The brass you were given might diserve a chat with the giver to see what condition it is in. He should never give you dangerous brass - period.

Here is my criteria
Brass that is reloaded must never have cracks at the head end. Examine your brass with a magnifying glass if you have one.
Most of the time what you find at the head are the sizing lines left by your FL di.
45-70 pressures are usually pretty low. If you like high pressure 45-70 loads you are on your own since they produce high recoil. Any left over high pressure loads have the possibility of being accidentally fired in a low pressure or original rifle. Any smokeless load should be limited to Black powder pressures unless you do not own an original rifle.

I have a lot of RP brass that is right at the max of 2.0110 after several firings. I let it get long to fit my chambers. It is that length after FL sizing. It will be a little shorter when fired and not sized however the length after firing is meaningless since I never put it in a chamber in that condition. Any brass longer than 2.0110 had to be double checked to insure my chamber will accept it.

To check your exact chamber length you need to trim a stretched case to about 2.0150 or as bit longer. If you don't have a stretched case buy a few Starline .45-90 cases and trim them back. Then expand them until the case mouth drags in the chamber. Seat the empty case if you can. If you can't seat it then trim it back .010 at a time until the breech begins to close.
Expand the case mouth enough to keep it tight enough to drag in the chamber. Once the breech begins to close trim the case .005 at a time until the breech closes. Write down that length. Try several cases at that length to insure your chamber accepts those cases. If so you have found your exact case length. If not keep trimming cases .002 at a time until you get the exact case length. It will always be longer than 2.100.
Any modern US made SAMMI compliant rifle should have a SAAMI chamber which is a minimum of 2.1099 long.
SAAMI compliant ammo is limited to 2.105. An original rifle meaning an antique rifle might have any length since there was no SAAMI before 1926. You can check an antique the same way but you might find the chamber to be longer.
Your short cases have probably been trimmed by the owner if he was seeking a uniform trim length and had a few short cases he was trying to save. With jacketed loads and to some extent other loads you may find the case length is not critical as long as it is consistently the same. I would keep the gift cases in the same lot if you decide to use them.
If the primer pockets are still tight enough to retain a primer snugly and they do not have cracks at the head they should be safe to fire. If not they are good cases to practice learning to anneal with.


I was gifted a small handful of (extremely) used .45-70 R-P brass and some 300grain JHP bullets several years ago. I noticed immediately that some of the brass was marked with Dykem, and after careful examination noted that this brass was all split in the case head area. No idea how many times, what load(s) or gun(s) this was fired in. I also noticed that all of this R-P brass was significantly shorter than nominal length. Longer than Hornady's Leverevolution brass, but still shorter than normal. Has anyone else noticed short brass from Remington, or was I just uncommonly lucky?

[Rick Hodges]

My favorite brass for the 45-70 is R-P. The Winchesters are fine but have a markedly larger capacity. If I was shooting black powder I would use the Winchesters. Thinner brass? I don't know but the Remington brass has worked well for me with the smokeless powders I use. There is an excess of capacity in the 45-70 for most modern loads that are not trying to duplicate the 458 Winchester.

[nicholst55]

The brass you were given might diserve a chat with the giver to see what condition it is in. He should never give you dangerous brass - period.

Here is my criteria
Brass that is reloaded must never have cracks at the head end. Examine your brass with a magnifying glass if you have one.
Most of the time what you find at the head are the sizing lines left by your FL di.
45-70 pressures are usually pretty low. If you like high pressure 45-70 loads you are on your own since they produce high recoil. Any left over high pressure loads have the possibility of being accidentally fired in a low pressure or original rifle. Any smokeless load should be limited to Black powder pressures unless you do not own an original rifle.

I have a lot of RP brass that is right at the max of 2.0110 after several firings. I let it get long to fit my chambers. It is that length after FL sizing. It will be a little shorter when fired and not sized however the length after firing is meaningless since I never put it in a chamber in that condition. Any brass longer than 2.0110 had to be double checked to insure my chamber will accept it.

To check your exact chamber length you need to trim a stretched case to about 2.0150 or as bit longer. If you don't have a stretched case buy a few Starline .45-90 cases and trim them back. Then expand them until the case mouth drags in the chamber. Seat the empty case if you can. If you can't seat it then trim it back .010 at a time until the breech begins to close.
Expand the case mouth enough to keep it tight enough to drag in the chamber. Once the breech begins to close trim the case .005 at a time until the breech closes. Write down that length. Try several cases at that length to insure your chamber accepts those cases. If so you have found your exact case length. If not keep trimming cases .002 at a time until you get the exact case length. It will always be longer than 2.100.
Any modern US made SAMMI compliant rifle should have a SAAMI chamber which is a minimum of 2.1099 long.
SAAMI compliant ammo is limited to 2.105. An original rifle meaning an antique rifle might have any length since there was no SAAMI before 1926. You can check an antique the same way but you might find the chamber to be longer.
Your short cases have probably been trimmed by the owner if he was seeking a uniform trim length and had a few short cases he was trying to save. With jacketed loads and to some extent other loads you may find the case length is not critical as long as it is consistently the same. I would keep the gift cases in the same lot if you decide to use them.
If the primer pockets are still tight enough to retain a primer snugly and they do not have cracks at the head they should be safe to fire. If not they are good cases to practice learning to anneal with.

Granted, the 'gifter' should have tossed the split brass. He received it in a junk box, and stated that he didn't even look at all of it. He no longer shoots a .45-70 (or any rifle with much recoil) due to injuries and infirmities, so he passed it to me.