WDWW how deep does the temper go?

[Ken O]

I picked up a H&G 130 off of Ebay a while back. Its a .45 thats suppose to drop 185gr @ .452.
It actually drops 198 @ .457, it cast a beautiful boolit, but what I want to know is... if I water drop it and run it through the .452 will it still have its temper? The .005 seems like a lot to take it down.
I just bought a S&W 625 and I get leading mostly on the forcing cone, I'm hoping the WD will help. My other .45s eat the ACWW without any leading at all. Thanks, Ken

[Ricochet]

Aside from the fact that heat treated lead alloys soften on working them, it's going to take a lot of pressure to force those things into that sizing die after they're hardened. Size them first, then oven-heat them and quench them in a batch.

[Bullshop]

There will most likely be some that will not agree but I believe the hardness is homodgenous when you properly quench WW alloy. You can proove this to be true very simply. What I do to test hardness is cut a boolit in half with bolt cutters, then file the cut end to a flat smooth surface. Then use the filed surface to make your test. It depends on the temp when the boolit hit the water. Light weight boolits give very little time to get them from the mold HOT into the water. Heavier boolits give a bit more time. Done right you should get a reading of 20 to 22 from the center of the boolit.
BIC/BS

[ddixie884]

Bullshop, Thank you for the info. I had also been wondering about this.

[Ricochet]

I think it's pretty homogeneous, too. Even .45 rifle bullets cool pretty quickly in water. The softening of annealing happens as the antimony separates out in crystals surrounded by softer lead, and it takes time for homogeneously distributed antimony atoms to migrate into the larger crystals. I don't think there's enough time for much of that to occur. When the alloy's suddenly quenched into basically a "solid solution" with the antimony evenly distributed, it's harder than lead, but the hardness increases over an aging period at room temperature. The antimony's supersaturated in this "solid solution" and crystallizes out, but to form the lowest energy state of relatively large antimony crystals surrounded by soft lead requires a good bit of movement of antimony atoms, and they're not that mobile in the alloy at low temperature. So instead of a relatively few large crystals, a huge number of very tiny crystals forms, and they "pin" together the layers of lead atoms that slide over each other in plastic deformity, making the alloy far less malleable.

[Jumptrap]

[QUOTE=Ricochet] to form the lowest energy state of relatively

Did Einstein work this out?...Oh wait a minute...that is RELATIVITY...hehehehe..LOL!

Speaking of which, Brother Ricochet, it is apparent you are a learned man. Would you mind giving a short discourse on Einstein's Theory of Relativity? Intriguing subject matter and stimulating activity for the semi solid mass of gray matter housed within one's cranial cavity. Something I find much more interesting than the constant subject of cream of wheat fillers, hollow points (and heads), and the displacement of lead molecules upon the high carbon metallic surface of interior barrel steel;).

[waksupi]

Jumptrap, I agree that would be an interesting subject. I find it fascinating, that we may be a universe, within a dust speck.

[StarMetal]

E=MC squared

Joe

[Buckshot]

.............I'm pretty sure it hardens all the way through. Probably the reason they want ya to leave'em in the oven for an hour. To make sure they reach the critical temp all the way through.

...............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Hardness is all the way through unless it is disturbed.

If you size after quenching, no matter if right away or weeks later, the sized portion will soften. This is the depth that is grabbed by the rifling. It is possible that the end hardness will be softer than if you just air cooled the bullet. Any increase in performance comes from the base of the bullets ability to handle pressure.

If you are stripping and want the best hard bullet performance, then you need to HT after sizing.

[Ken O]

Hmmm, maybe too much info for my head, lol. They do go through the sizer pretty hard, so I am probably work softening them it sounds like. I just wish this mold didnt drop so large, it would probably be perfect for the older .45LC.

[drinks]

I have tested bullets on the flat nose and on the side after filing a nice big flat, I have found less than .5BHN variations on the same bullet, water dropped, air cooled or heat treated.
I use both the Cabine Tree and the new Lee tester.

[cbrick]

Bass Ackward has it correct. Sizing, filing or any other working of the surface will work soften the alloy. This according to articles in both the Rifleman and Handloader. According to these articles lead is the opposite of steel. When steel is heat treated it is only a surface hardening. When lead is heat treated it is the same hardness througout.

Just last night I tested this myself by measuring three bullets at 11 BHN. I then filed the nose down a bit and every one of them measured 10 BHN.

Rick

[Bullshop]

cbrick
If that is true then please tell me why I get the same reading from the cast nose of a boolit as when I cut it with bolt cutters then file it flat. You say you got a 1 BHN change when you filed but you can see that much variation just from taking multiple readings from the same surface. That is why it is recamended to take several readings and take the average of those readings.
I can believe that heavy sizing can soften for a couple .000" depth but in filing I dont think so. Filing only disturbs the metal that is being removed.
You may also think that cutting with bolt cutters would upset enough metal that the area around the cut would be softened but my tester tells me no.
I have sized quenched boolits down .003 to .004" and they still perform as harder than the same alloy AC. From what I have seen what softening that takes place from sizing has little to no effect on the performance. A quenched boolit still acts like a quenched boolit weather you size it or not.
BIC/BS

[ddixie884]

Why doesn't sizing work harden lead, like aluminum, or copper? Does anyone know? I only ask, because I have no understanding of the concept.

[David R]

According to these articles lead is the opposite of steel. When steel is heat treated it is only a surface hardening.
Rick

When Steel is heat treated, it goes all the way through unless its Case Hardening. The article is wrong. Ever try to drill out a grade 8 bolt? Its just as hard in the center as outside. Springs are another example. The temper goes all the way through or they wouldn't work.
:)

David

[Bass Ackward]

I have sized quenched boolits down .003 to .004" and they still perform as harder than the same alloy AC. From what I have seen what softening that takes place from sizing has little to no effect on the performance. A quenched boolit still acts like a quenched boolit weather you size it or not.
BIC/BS


Dan,

The actual results you observe will be based on the problem you were encountering with your load. If the reason your bullet was failing was do to pressure distorting the bullet base, bore friction, or sizing down from fouling with the ACWW bullet, then the water dropped hard bullet with the sized "soft" skin will perform just like a bullet that is HT after being sized.

If the reason for poor performance was because you were stripping contact with the rifling, then you would see the best chance for an increase in performance between the two methods.

I would guestimate that 98% of the bullet failures that people encounter are because of pressure / bore friction. (fast powders) So those people will always believe that a waterdropped is as good as a HT one. And they are correct, then. I would guess that the number of people that encounter stripping running cast bullets at moderate to slow speeds is very minimal in number as a percentage of casters. The military fast twisters, low rifling height guns or plain basers stepping on it too come to mind. That is why for most people water dropping alone is a successful effort. And when it isn't, most people just assume that there is nothing more they can do and they adapt with the appropriate action to solve the pressure problem believing that they are at the pinacle of performance. At least this is what I always thought.

I discovered the difference by accident with a 14" twist, 458 bullet shooting a large diameter, 300 grainer about 2400 fps. Initial groups with ACWW were laughable in the 9" or 10" area. I assumed I needed a harder bullet. Well everything I moulded up was ACWW. So I fired up the pot just to drop enough bullets I needed for the next testing. Groups with WDWW (24BHN) and the same load went into the 12" area. I was confounded.

Not having the time to cast up more, I took the extra ACWW that I had on hand that were already sized and decided to HT them to save time. I loaded them shortly after the treatment. The next day I decided to check hardness just to know what I was using and I got upset because I had heat treated rather poorly. These bullets wound up 2 BHN softer than the water dropped bullets tested earlier. I was wanting 30 - 35. I didn't get it. But they werealready loaded so what they heck. I was still surprised when groups dropped to 4" with the same load in every way. That was when I decided to go to a taller 20" twist. There are more reasons for stripping of coarse, but this was mine in this particular case.

Bottom line is that if a water dropped bullet solves your problem and you did in fact size it, then your problem probably wasn't due to stripping. Now if you water drop and don't have to size the bullet skin, then you have the same thing as a HT anyway.

[Bass Ackward]

Why doesn't sizing work harden lead, like aluminum, or copper? Does anyone know? I only ask, because I have no understanding of the concept.


DD,

The is not easily described or at least by me. This has been explained in detail in an earlier post but I can't remember the title or the correct individual that did the good job explaining the difference. Maybe he will chime in to point you in the right direction.

[Ricochet]

Why doesn't sizing work harden lead, like aluminum, or copper? Does anyone know? I only ask, because I have no understanding of the concept.
Look back at that thing I posted earlier about the hardness being due to crystals of antimony (or other alloying metals) surrounded by soft lead. If the crystals are relatively large and few, the lead can squoosh more easily around them, and larger numbers of smaller crystals interfere more with that "flow." The most stable, lowest energy state of the atoms in the alloy is when they can agglomerate together into the few, large crystals, but atoms can't move easily through the solid metal to collect like that. When you work the metal, you momentarily open up spaces in the crystal lattices of the metal that let them move around freely and they reassemble in more stable arrangements, which happen to be softer in this case.