First rifle load...Varmint Grenade 50gn for AR15

[guy_with_boolits]

I am under no illusion that this will be as simple as a pistol load, but I do believe I have everything needed and pretty good idea how to do it. But I need a reality check that this makes sense.

The bullet is a 50gn Varmint Grenade (lead free frangible with copper jacket)
The rifle is 1:7 twist 5.56 AR15 with 16.5" barrel.

I have not found published data for this exact combination, however this bullet is meant for twists faster than 1:10 so I don't think this is an issue, its just doesn't have published data for this exact situation.

My equipment is:

Lee Loadmaster

Pacesetter dies:
-full length sizer
-factory crimp die
-dead length bullet seating die (does not crimp)

Short charging die
Collet necksizing die
Universal case expanding die
Deluxe quick trim die

Lee APP with primer pocket swager

Brass I'm using is random range pickup. Its already been decapped and then SS tumbled, but it needs to be trimmed have its primer pockets swaged. Its a mix of 223 and 556.

Question 1: These bullets apparently should not be roll crimped because they are fragile, although they do have a jacket. I am not sure if I have the right dies for an alternative taper crimp.

Question 2: The load I'm going for is a 223 remington load, based on barnes data for 1:12 with 24" barrel. I feel like the pressure will be safe since its 223, and it should still work in my AR. Does this sound right? (see pic)

Question 3: I think I got the expanding die if I wanted to do cast boolits, which is not what I'm doing here. So I don't need that die for these bullets right?

Question 4: The brass is fired but not in my rifle. So that means I will have to do full length sizer, and I dont need the neck sizer right?

Install the following dies in Load Master:

Full length sizer / decapper
Short charging die with disc powder loader (I think it has a disc big enough for the load)
Small primer setup
Bullet seating die
(What do I do for the taper crimp? Use my factory crimp set to almost no crimp?)

Then load away as normal, the load being:

GM205MAR small rifle match primers
21.4gn H335
50gn Varmint Grenade bullets
Random range pickup brass, SS pin cleaned, with primer pockets swaged

Then:

Swage primer pockets of all brass in Lee APP
Adjust quick trim die to each achieve proper cartridge length
Trim/chamfer all brass
Adjust powder measure with scale to get right powder load
Adjust bullet seating die

Begin loading:
1- prime
2- charge
3- bullet seat
4- taper crimp? (how??)

Oh wait, I need to lube each case before sizing right?

Note: the pic below shows several related loads, including an other barnes frangible jacketed bullet thats similar. The load I chose comes from the 223 REMINGTON in the black box.

https://i.postimg.cc/KYMfpZN3/VG-50gn-loading-data.png

[guy_with_boolits]

EDIT: added quick trim die...

[Texas by God]

Sounds like a good plan, but I would segregate the brass and use the same headstamp, and not crimp at all. You don't need to flare the necks for jacketed bullets. Be sure to try the first one from the magazine to the chamber and back out to make sure all is well before you load a bunch. H335 is a very good choice for powder. I always full length size for semi auto rifles for function's sake.
And you will only forget to lube the cases one time.....
Have fun!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[guy_with_boolits]

Sounds like a good plan, but I would segregate the brass and use the same headstamp, and not crimp at all. You don't need to flare the necks for jacketed bullets. Be sure to try the first one from the magazine to the chamber and back out to make sure all is well before you load a bunch. H335 is a very good choice for powder. I always full length size for semi auto rifles for function's sake.
And you will only forget to lube the cases one time.....
Have fun!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

thanks..thing is I already flared all the cases because the primer pocket swager said that was needed for the swager rod to get in there...do I need to buy another die to do a taper crimp?

I thought I heard the bullet seating die does actually do a taper crimp contrary to the lee docs....?

[guy_with_boolits]

oh wait I get it..

the full length size will give me the right size neck and the jacketed bullet will fit and seat without any crimp

okay

but then the next question is..I should trim after full length sizing right? because right now it has a flare.

so:

1- flare (so I can swage primer pocket)
2- lube and full length size
3- trim
4- dump out trim shavings
5- proceed with priming, charging, and bullet seating

is that right?

[Texas by God]

Unless your brass has been reloaded a lot, you shouldn't need to trim them. But if you want to- by all means go ahead. It will ensure that they are all uniform length.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[tomme boy]

Trim it now. I shoot for 1.749" before sizing. No crimp at all! Also make sure you inside chamfer the brass as your last step before loading them. That way the bullet will not be damaged by seating them. I prefer the VLD type of chamfering tools.

[guy_with_boolits]

Hmm okay so I am noticing something.

Reminder: the brass is flared already because the primer pocket swager tool flares the mouth so it can get the top part of the tool in there.

So I've been lubing the case, then putting it in full length sizer/decapper die (without the decapper rod since they have already been decapped)

It seems like the very end, maybe 1/32" of the mouth, is not getting completely resized. It leaves it with a very slight flare maybe .005" larger than the rest of the case mouth. Is that an issue?

Then, when using the quick trim die, it doesn't seem to do a very good job chamfering the outside of the mouth. The length and inside chamfer are good, but the outside chamfer is either missing or kind of shallow. Sometimes it feels like it leaves a burr on the outside as well. (This is a Lee quick trim die). Its entirely possible I'm using it wrong (too slow/fast speed, too short/long time)

It seems that the diameter and condition of the very furthest edge of the case mouth does need to be proper to chamber correctly right?

[guy_with_boolits]

okay update: the remaining flare/lip is only on the order of .001" to .002" bigger in diameter compared to the rest of the neck/mouth, does that still matter?

[guy_with_boolits]

I *think* I fixed this by:

-lube case
-full length size (with decapper rod)
-quick trim with drill at fairly high speed for 5 seconds
-full length size again

This seems to be resulting in generally burr free, properly inside/outside chamfered mouths, with no flare.. I've only done it on a few cases and I'm not sure which elements helped the most (decapper rod may do nothing). Now I will try a few dozen

[guy_with_boolits]

okay heres what I ended up with...

about 30 cases

I took out 5 at random for inspection (see pics)

case lengths ended up as:

1.742
1.745
1.744
1.744
1.745

I feel like this is good enough to move forward with..it seems like burrs and flare are gone. The inside chamfer is consistently good. The outside is not there or very minor, but I suppose as long as there is no burr or outside flare, thats fine.

https://i.postimg.cc/VkLW39pp/20201106-111745.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/pLGJxhtT/20201106-111829.jpg

[tomme boy]

Don't worry too much about the outside chamfer. You have to do the inside as the last step before you actually load a bullet. You do not want to scrape off any of the jacket when seating a bullet. Try not to trim them that short again. Shoot for 1.749" on the trim length.

When you set your seating die up, do not use those pieces of brass to set the depth of the die. Find a piece of long brass like a 1.76" and screw the the down with a empty case raised up in the press until you can feel the die touch the shell. It will just stop. Now screw the die itself out a 1/2 turn and lock the ring. Now you can set the bullet depth. If you are loading for a AR15 then 2.25" is going to be about max depending on your mags.

[guy_with_boolits]

Don't worry too much about the outside chamfer. You have to do the inside as the last step before you actually load a bullet. You do not want to scrape off any of the jacket when seating a bullet. Try not to trim them that short again. Shoot for 1.749" on the trim length.

When you set your seating die up, do not use those pieces of brass to set the depth of the die. Find a piece of long brass like a 1.76" and screw the the down with a empty case raised up in the press until you can feel the die touch the shell. It will just stop. Now screw the die itself out a 1/2 turn and lock the ring. Now you can set the bullet depth. If you are loading for a AR15 then 2.25" is going to be about max depending on your mags.

Thanks. Why does 5 thou of trim length matter? I literally don't know.

Why do you recommend seating the bullet die that way? I did it the way in the LEE manual (put on last ring turn in until shell holder, turn out 1/8", then adjust seating plug until it touches bullet <--- requires using a round you want to copy). In my case I just sat a bullet deeper and deeper until it was the COAL I wanted (note this procedure is from memory, I had to seat a bunch of dies using the instructions and I may have mixed this up with the steps for another die..so if a beginner is reading this, check your manual first)

As far as I can tell, I dont think the jackets got scraped. The chamfer is very small and the bullets are flat bottom so they were definitely not straight going into the die..but they seemed to come out straight. Still, I would not call them match grade as far as concentricity lol

Another note: I could not get the quick trim to perform well without running the drill at high speed for a few seconds. High speed in low gear..so probably around 1000 rpm. Going slower for only a few turns just wasn't working well.


I ended up with 22 rounds as follows:

50gn barnes varmint grenade
22.5gn H335 (lee auto disc measure with short charging die and I think 1.46cc opening)
range pickup brass mixed 223 and 5.56, decapped, SS pin/citric/dawn tumbled, then primer pocket swaged with Lee APP
GM205MAR small rifle match primers
trimmed case with lee trimmer (length, inside + outside chamfers) to ~1.744", drill at full speed in low gear (1k rpm?) for 5 secs
sat bullet for overall length of 2.200"
this load came from the barnes .223 remington load data (not meant for ar's, has 24" barrel and 1:12 twist, but the bullet is okay with 1:10 twist or faster)

[tomme boy]

When you screw in the die like I said you are trying to find the crimp section of the die. That is what you hit than you back the die out a little so you do not touch the crimp. You are just removing any flair you put into the neck.

If you have a inconsistent brass length you will end up crushing the shoulders of the case. Don't set up the die like Lee tells you by running it down till you touch the shell holder. If you must then back it out at least 1/2 turn then lock it in. Always adjust your seating depth last.

[guy_with_boolits]

When you screw in the die like I said you are trying to find the crimp section of the die. That is what you hit than you back the die out a little so you do not touch the crimp. You are just removing any flair you put into the neck.

If you have a inconsistent brass length you will end up crushing the shoulders of the case. Don't set up the die like Lee tells you by running it down till you touch the shell holder. If you must then back it out at least 1/2 turn then lock it in. Always adjust your seating depth last.

So the Lee bullet seating die for 223 in the pacesetter set crimps? It comes with a factory crimp die separate. Are you sure it crimps?

I see what you mean about the shoulder hitting if the lengths aren't consistent. I suppose I should do some experiments to observe this for myself

[MOC031]

So the Lee bullet seating die for 223 in the pacesetter set crimps? It comes with a factory crimp die separate. Are you sure it crimps?

I'll start by saying I don't have any Lee equipment except for a couple of their collet sizing dies, a universal decapping die and one factory crimp die that I use in my Dillon reloading 5.56. So I'm probably speaking generically here.


Some, probably most, rifle bullet seating dies have a crimping section at the top. Unless you want to crimp a rifle cartridge mouth at the end of the bullet seating stroke, use a long case as previously explained to back your die out enough that your case mouths never reach that section of the die while seating.
Depending on the cartridge, rifle, etc and how you resize, there is going to be some increase in case length each time you resize. If you get anal (as I tend to do) and shoot for a narrow window of min length versus max length, you are going to end up needing to trim more often. I spent years having my rifle brass just short of maximum length, with all cases within one or two thou OAL. Finally did some group testing out at 300 yards with proven loads and discovered that a wider trim window didn't make the slightest bit of difference. Trimming back more allows you to reload the brass more times before it needs trimming again. The time saved can be used instead to anneal case necks for more consistency, hopefully better accuracy, and certainly longer case life.
I used to sort by head stamp, right down to sorting by year with Lake City brass for my AR. Once again, I finally did some testing at the 300 yard butts at the range with my best load; sorted versus unsorted. There MIGHT have been some difference between the two ten shot groups I fired, but when you break out the verniers to measure groups for comparison at that range... I think you're picking fly poop out of pepper at that point. If you have a precision AR i.e. intended for National Match competition and you're looking for loads that shoot at that level, then maybe case sorting will deliver more accuracy.
There could be a case made for sorting on the basis of some cases having a significant difference in case capacity, depending on manufacturer. The loads I arrived at for my rifle's uppers shot their tightest groups below maximum load data, so maybe there's a difference there as well if your loads are approaching maximum charges.
I chamfer the inside of all my cases with a Lyman VLD tool, jacketed or cast. It's good to go then until the next time you trim. I automatically neck chamfer everything after it gets trimmed.

For 5.56 in my Dillon, I have an extra tool head with a Lee universal decapping die, followed by a resizing die with the decapping pin pulled (so an expander button isn't pulled through the case mouth), followed by a Dillon electric case trimmer (which is also a sizing die as well). That is probably overkill for most people, but at my age I already have a lot of stuff around that just needs to be configured. It's going to do the merry-go-round in the Dillon anyways, so doing all in three steps doesn't increase the time. My theory is that running the already lubed and sized case into the electric trimmer after it's already lubed just might not hurt, and I might get a better trim when doing that. I have never tested the theory of a more precise trim by comparing groups at the range - but doing it this way doesn't cost me one iota of extra time. But after all is said and done decapping, resizing, and trimming brass, all the necks get chamfered before it goes in the "ready to reload" box.
With some progressive machines, doing case prep as a separate step from priming, charging and seating can sometimes help. Starting with the fact that after the decapping, resizing, trimming workflow, I can take that bucket of brass, clean all the lube that they were covered with for resizing, and then store it away until ready to reload that already completely prepped brass. The lube apparently doesn't contaminate powder and primer, but if I tumble my brass AFTER I've resized and deprimed, I KNOW there's no lube left on any of it when it goes into the machine for reloading.

My 650 machine jerks around as the cases are deprimed and sized. Even with the aftermarket improvements added on that do smooth it out a bit. When you actually do the reloading cycle of priming, charging, seating, and crimping as a separate work flow, you will really feel the difference in how the machine feels much smoother through all stations. If you try comparing the two cycles just once, you'll know what I mean. I don't know if it leads to more accuracy as I haven't tested it, but it makes operating the machine smoother.
A lot of guys, but not all, find they get better groups out of their ARs using a Lee Factory Crimp die as their last step, adjusting the die so they just barely see some crimp appear at the top of the neck. That did make a difference for me in my general bullet of choice, the Hornady 63gr, sold by Midsouth. So now I'm back to having all case's trimmed to the same length for those particular bullets. For other bullets, the factory crimp die set up from just noticeable to moderate made no difference. If adding any kind of crimp as the last stage of bullet seating doesn't deliver better accuracy... save yourself the time from more frequent trimming sessions and just don't do it.

I have no experience with the frangible bullets you're working with. Barnes may or may not have something to say about crimping them (I would guess with all the AR's out there, they might believe some of those bullets will be intended for use in AR's). However, if you're in pursuit of the very best accuracy you can get, a crimp that is just barely visible at the very top of the case mouth shouldn't be of any concern with a frangible bullet. It may help (as well as ironing out any flare left in the neck from previous steps), or you may discover that the juice is not worth the squeeze.


Anyways, much of the above may not apply in your situation with your equipment; as I said at the top, some of this is pretty generic. But hopefully it will help with some of your questions as you're sorting through how you're going to manage your reloading workflow.

[guy_with_boolits]

thanks for all the info, today I shot what I made..

seemed to generally hit what i was pointing at within 6" at 140 yards but I was not able to do precise target shooting or chrony yet

do the cases look ok? I see a small dent on all of them. Primers are mostly flat but still have a little radius.

case ejection was 4 to 4:30

I'm guessing those are just ejector bump dents but want to be sure

So now I have some fireformed brass for my rifle right?? I can reload these and not full-length-size? Just neck size?

https://i.postimg.cc/wMsYB6ST/20201109-173747.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/5jddYhV5/20201109-174009.jpg

[tomme boy]

Normal dents from hitting the shell deflector. Be careful of the European made brass, it holds about 1.5gr less capacity.

[guy_with_boolits]

Normal dents from hitting the shell deflector. Be careful of the European made brass, it holds about 1.5gr less capacity.

wont that significantly change the internal pressure if the volume is smaller?

[fcvan]

Wow, lot's of great detailed loading information. I don't think I can add anything that hasn't been covered. Regarding frangible bullets, I was buying 45 and 55 grain sintered copper bullets (90% copper, 10% tin) when they were cheap and plentiful. I mostly cast my own but I was working a lot of overtime which cut into my casting.

I observed a guy who crimped sintered bullets and they basically were pinched in half during crimping. My boolits are friction fit only, no crimping, same as bullets be they FMJ, lathe turned HPBT, or sintered. I do chamfer the case mouth to aid in seating and ream crimped in primer pockets. I was given a lot of brass which I did sort by case head, some Lake City, some Federal, Winchester, and Remington. I wasn't particularly picky about sorting, but it was all once fired.

I made up a bunch of 300 BO cases as my wife, my brother, and I all have carbines and I built an AR 15 Pistol. I guess I made up 1500 300 BO rounds. I also built a 7 1/2" AR pistol in 5.56. It is obnoxiously loud . . . I like it! I don't load much bought bullets, and the sintered bullets were mostly downloaded using the same powder charge I use for cast boolits. I use IMR 4227 for cast and for sintered, and use a different powder for FMJ and the lathe turned bullets.

My cast runs 2250 fps from the AR carbine, Mini 14, and 2450 fps out of a single shot 24" H Barrel with a 1-14" twist. I don't know how fast they go from the AR 15 pistol, never checked. The lighter loads still make a big noise, just not as big ball of fire. The cast and the sintered work great on steel plates without tearing them up. They raise heck on tin cans and I like that. I use different loads for different weapons as they have different rates of twist ranging from 1-7 1/2", 1-9" for my carbine, 1-10" for the Mini 14. I differentiate the loads by how they are packaged and what color powder coat I use.

Since I have thousands loaded I haven't reloaded my now twice fired brass. Since most of the loads are reduced velocity and pressure the brass is not getting worked too hard. To be honest, I don't shoot the AR 15s much anymore as I moved those out of CA to the Colorado house. I still like shooting the Mini 14 and it feeds anything. A good day at the range is usually 40 or 50 rounds with the carbine and then the sidearms.

Loading .223/5.56 is pretty straight forward, making dummy rounds to check seating depth and feeding in the AR 15s and the Mini 14. I don't crimp, just neck tension, and have not had bullet setback during the feeding cycle. And man, I love shooting cast!

[guy_with_boolits]

Finally chrono'd these

.224 50gn Varmint Grenade (22496)
22.5gn H335
random range pickup brass trimmed to 1.75"
no crimping
COAL 2.200"
1:7 AR w/16" barrel

Chrono'd 3
2699
2815
2653

Avg 2722

Barnes load data says 21.4gn H335 should yield 2800fps so not sure whats going on here. However barnes data is 1:12 with 24" barrel. That may be the explanation.

Note: Chronograph is Shooting Chrony F1 with LED modification. Forum user sent me it thinking it was broken or just didnt want it. Seems to work. Seems to give good values for an air rifle. Not sure how accurate it really is.