How much shoulder setback?

[Bazoo]

I was loading some 30-30 and I set my shoulder back about .010. I don't have a comparitor so I used a 38 special case to measure the shoulder of a fired case and to set my die. With as much sizing as the die will do, I was like .040.

So my question is, with regards to sure functioning, how much setback do y'all aim for? I know the lesser the better for case life, and I suppose the more the better for function, but what is the happy spot?

We're talking a winchester 94 by the way.

Bazoo

[M-Tecs]

.003" to 004" max. on hunting guns. .002 max. on competition rifles.

[JimB..]

Assuming that you’re loading for one rifle I believe that you just want to set it back enough to chamber. Setting back too much creates a headspace problem, setting back too little creates a chambering problem.

[Wayne Smith]

39-30 head spaces on the rim. You will simply stretch the case at the base - e.g. the problem with the British .303 cartridge.

[beshears]

Setting shoulder back causes case separation in front of the web. Watch for a shiny ring around base.

[Jedman]

I have a single shot I built in 256 Win Mag and used a standard PTG chamber reamer and only reamed until the gun would close with the rim as flush to the barrels breech face as possible. My die set is RCBS and once I started firing the gun I was resizing the brass until the die firmly stopped against the shell holder. Then comparing a fired case against a resized case I thought I could see a difference in the shoulder in a side by side comparison even with my not so great eyesight.
So I started using a feeler gauge to set the size die when the Ram is full up with a case in the die I found I could easily slip a .009 feeler between the bottom of the die and the shell holder and the gun had no resistance closing.

At .012 I could just feel the slightest resistance when closing the gun with no effort so I believe at that point I was starting the slightest crush this with a break action rifle. So I set the sizing die with a .009 feeler and fired brass will rechamber easy and the gun will close without effort.
I believe most brands of size dies are made to allow loaded ammo to chamber in even the tightest sammi spec. chamber but might not be ideal in your gun. I believe the reamer is ground to a precision size and with a rimmed cartridge you must find brass that has a consistent thickness and stick with it.
With bottlenecked cartridges you will find a similar situation and with all the different types of actions and some have wear and give when closing so ammo loaded for one might not be usable for another in the same caliber.
That’s one reason that I hand load for 34 cartridges, I want the ammo the best it can be.

Jedman

[JimB..]

39-30 head spaces on the rim. You will simply stretch the case at the base - e.g. the problem with the British .303 cartridge.

Argh, failed to consider that he said 30-30. I blame the election. Thanks for the correction.

[Larry Gibson]

If you're FL sizing and having to trim after every firing and shooting full power loads incipient case head separation will occur in a few firings as beshears mentions. If you want long case life, no trimming and maintaining consistent case length for uniform crimping then I suggest using a RCBS X-die adjusted so the shoulder is set back just enough to allow easy chambering. For 12+ years now I've been using the X-die to FL size my 30-30 cases that I use interchangeably in my two M94s. Since using the X-Die I haven't segregated the cases specific to rifle, haven't trimmed a case and lost a single case to incipient case head separation.

[waksupi]

I neck size only.

[popper]

Anneal a once fired factory full power load & set the die to neck size only. If it chambers OK, load full and fire. Will blow the shoulder where it should be. Then set your die for that length and check for chambering. Basically fire forming to your chamber.

[jsizemore]

.003" to 004" max. on hunting guns. .002 max. on competition rifles.

That's what I do.

[M-Tecs]

Argh, failed to consider that he said 30-30. I blame the election. Thanks for the correction.

On rimmed cases or belted cases I always use shoulder bump same as a rimless case. Other than requiring a little more effort this has zero disadvantages and all the normal advantages of accurately controlling shoulder clearance. . When I order reamers for belted or rimmed cases I order headspace gauges that headspace of the shoulder datum and not the rim or belt. Frankly I never have checked the rim verse shoulder datum. I have checked numerous belt to shoulder datum and they tend to very widely with some being surprisingly long.

[DHDeal]

I full length size for every bottleneck cartridge I load. I either use Redding full length bushing dies or Hornady full length bushing dies specific to each rifle. As I use comparators at least at first with a new barrel and those numbers are written down just in case that gun isn't fired often.

For my target rifles I'll go no more than .001" and my hunting guns (not many) I go no more than .002". Case life is long and I only loose a piece to primer pockets going. I've got a 223 AI built by Long Rifles Inc that as far as I can measure, the shoulders have never been bumped and it chambers cases like a greased pig. Those 100 Lapua cases have been fired 8 times. Every gun/cartridge is a different animal (like women).

Though I don't have one, if loading for the 30-30 I'd try .003" and see if it chambers.
With a rifle without strong lock up, you can get some extra case stretch so keep that in mind. Just enough to chamber easily is a good rule of thumb here. Measurements would help you immeasurably (see what I did) and you would know, but you can do it a quarter turn of the die at a time too.

You listed .040" and that's huge. As I'm understanding your post, that's how much your die is able to size, not necessarily how much you've sized all of your cases.

[lotech]

If you're FL sizing and having to trim after every firing and shooting full power loads incipient case head separation will occur in a few firings as beshears mentions. If you want long case life, no trimming and maintaining consistent case length for uniform crimping then I suggest using a RCBS X-die adjusted so the shoulder is set back just enough to allow easy chambering. For 12+ years now I've been using the X-die to FL size my 30-30 cases that I use interchangeably in my two M94s. Since using the X-Die I haven't segregated the cases specific to rifle, haven't trimmed a case and lost a single case to incipient case head separation.

X-dies work very well.

[DonHowe]

Setting the shoulder back any more than the absolute minimum required means the case is being fireformed every time it is reloaded and fired. I see no up side to this given a properly sized chamber and normal pressure level unless one's life depends on the loaded rounds absolutely clambering without fail. In this latter case I would not be concerned with picking up my brass.
When loading for one rifle my practice is, once I have fired a case in my chamber, to neck size only until there is resistance to closing the action on a loaded round. Then I will use the FL die to bump the shoulder back slightly until the resistance is gone then the next time tha case is reloaded it's back to neck sizing.

[dtknowles]

I reloaded a lot of 30-30 for a model 94 and always set the die so the shell holder contacted the bottom of the FL size die. Never had a problem with case life, functioning or accuracy. That was for both cast and jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets loaded to Lyman and Hornady max listed loads. I did try neck sizing only but saw no benefit. Not saying what people are suggesting isn't better just maybe a waste of time.

Tim

[rkcohen]

m-tec is on it.
use your gun's chamber as the gauge...