200gr SWC for .45 ACP: Issues with shaving lead while loading?

[VariableRecall]

Hi there! My bro, the user Galvin_Ground has been having some minor issues with his newly reloaded Boolits. These are 200gn SWC's, originally sized to approximately .453 according to my calipers.

Galvin_Ground is using a Bonanza die set gifted by a Boolit Buddy, which RCBS is descended from, apparently. While we can accurately manage to accurately seat to a correct depth, the issue arises with shaved lead showing up above the case mouth of the newly assembled cartridge.

We have carefully tested seating with Galvin's RIA 1911's barrel, and the cartridge sits slightly below the lug much like a standard factory round.
However, the cartridge appears to be seating in the correct depth, but it's sitting pretty on the LEAD and not the Brass. I can see that being a potential problem if we were to start putting these rounds to use.

What exactly is Galvin doing wrong here? Sizing the boolits even to .451 lead to similar results. I'll be posting the finished boolits in question here so that you all can have a look too.

Here is a photo of a ready to use Boolit and one that was pulled from an unfilled round, so that we could test seating.
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The lead getting in the way of the brass. Galvin's been able to reduce the amount of lead in the way by around 50% but that's probably not enough to eliminate potential issues.
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A side profile of the same cartridge, lead clearly in the way of the case mouth.
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The side profile, where the lead and brass are almost one.
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What's going wrong here?

[toallmy]

What do the loaded rounds measure at the case mouth ?

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Did you expand the case mouth before loading the bullet?

[Half Dog]

Try a MDie. It worked for me.

[gwpercle]

Be sure to flare the case mouth .
Seat the boolit just a little deeper . The top edge of the boolits driving band should protrude about the thickness of your thumbnail ...no more .
If all else fails , size boolits .452" ...fat boolits are harder to get seated fully .

Do a search on the term "plunk test" and make sure all your loads pass the plunk test .
Seating boolit and taper crimping in two different , separate steps , also helps .

Gary

[Winger Ed.]

Size to .452, use a little bit more flare, and taper crimp.

[alfadan]

I had to go to seat and crimp in two separate operations to fix my issues

[VariableRecall]

Size to .452, use a little bit more flare, and taper crimp.

With regards to expansion, Galvin_ground is using a Lee .45 ACP expander die, set to about as firm of an expansion as he can get. The brass, when expanded, allows for the base of the boolit to fit in, but the rest of the boolit to wobble around. Would expanding it LESS perhaps fix things? My money's still on the crimping step being the issue.

[VariableRecall]

What do the loaded rounds measure at the case mouth ?

I don't have one handy but these rounds fit the OAL guidelines and chambered in a loose barrel just fine, with a similar "sliding right in sound" as a factory FMJ that we had tested.
I'll grab one to measure as soon as I get the chance.

[VariableRecall]

The very important question for me and Galvin_Ground is:
Would these rounds be safe to fire, even with their issues?
I would expect some severe leading considering the lubricant is sheared off most of the drive bands that we've pulled during testing so far.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"originally sized to approximately .453 according to my calipers"
Is that the size before PC?
If you plan on using boolits that fat, you need to expand the case more than the Lee expander will do.

[VariableRecall]

"originally sized to approximately .453 according to my calipers"
Is that the size before PC?
If you plan on using boolits that fat, you need to expand the case more than the Lee expander will do.

I do happen to have a .452 and .451 resizing die set I got from a Boolit buddy. Sizing to .451 still caused lead to squish into the case mouth the first time, but perhaps if we make another batch where we size to 452 and complete more careful seating procedures, we may have better results.

Keep in mind that on the second set of Boolits we assembled we managed to get about 50 to 70 percent of the case moth being leased without actually resizing the boolits at all.

[VariableRecall]

"originally sized to approximately .453 according to my calipers"
Is that the size before PC?
If you plan on using boolits that fat, you need to expand the case more than the Lee expander will do.

The Boolits were Hi-Tek coated by their manufaturer, Hoosier Bullets, to .453. I'd double checked with calipers myself.

And yeah, these 200gn SWC are some Chunky Boys. I'd expected some minor issues considering that it's not as traditional of a boolit shape, but I had heard that they are more chambering friendly than most lead boolits.

[VariableRecall]

What do the loaded rounds measure at the case mouth ?

There were two different batches of boolits Galvin assembled.
One set had a lot more lead in the case mouth. Testing a couple from that batch shows their case mouths are around .471. These had a general OAL of 1.234.

Strangely, the second batch of assembled cartridges with less lead in the case mouth have a slightly wider diameter at the mouth, at .473ish. These had a general OAL of 1.230.

[VariableRecall]

Size to .452, use a little bit more flare, and taper crimp.

I am unsure whether the Bonanza Die uses a roll or taper crimp. Galvin could probably crimp the boolits not as hard. from my best estimation, he's going at about a medium crimp.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't see anything blatantly wrong, but you might need to flare the cases more before attempting to seat the boolits. This is where the Lee expander shows its faults in my opinion, it just doesn't have enough flare to it.

The easy fix is to buy a Lyman M-die for neck expanding.

There was a long thread a few years ago in I think the handgun section about reloading the .45 ACP. It is worth doing search for it.

Robert

[jonp]

I don't have one handy but these rounds fit the OAL guidelines and chambered in a loose barrel just fine, with a similar "sliding right in sound" as a factory FMJ that we had tested.
I'll grab one to measure as soon as I get the chance.

Maybe so but I have one 45acp that wants something else. Seat a little deeper, taper crimp it, the Lee will do both and try again but remember to flare enough for the boolit. I use a Lee Universal and seat/crimp in separate steps

[VariableRecall]

I don't see anything blatantly wrong, but you might need to flare the cases more before attempting to seat the boolits. This is where the Lee expander shows its faults in my opinion, it just doesn't have enough flare to it.

The easy fix is to buy a Lyman M-die for neck expanding.

There was a long thread a few years ago in I think the handgun section about reloading the .45 ACP. It is worth doing search for it.

Robert

The Lee die manages to expand the neck enough for the bottom to seat, and it can leave the brass with a satisfying pop afterward after a firm press. However, the boolit seats in the expanded area of the brass to a very shallow degree. Might have to look into finding some way to expand the brass further.

I can say that the Bonanza Expander that Galvin has unfortunately DE-PRIMES upon expansion The de-priming shaft thingy is part of the expander, I think. I haven't tried removing the depriming portion, however. This warranted the need for me to grab a Lee Expander which only expands.

I've had really good results with my Lee Seating and Crimping dies for my .38 Special. Does their .45 die have good success for others?

[Bkingnsmth]

You never said what type of sizer you used. If by any chance do you use a LYMAN especially the older style with a shoulder ( which cuts to the size) ? Newer style swage more without cutting. The Lee style swage also. The bare lead showing makes me wonder which type you use.


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[Petrol & Powder]

OK, lot to take in here.

I agree that the bullet should be seated so that just about a fingernail width of the front driving band stands proud of the case.

That round needs a taper crimp. I can't really tell what crimp that is from the photo.

I size similar 200gr SWC bullets to .452" and they work beautifully in anything they will chamber in.

I agree with Mk42gunner in that I don't see anything blatantly wrong.

As for "are they safe"? : assuming the powder charge is safe, the answer is - YES.
The real question is, "will they feed & function"? - if they pass the "plunk" test and will feed from the magazine, the chances are good they will work.

I also agree a Lyman "M" die expander (or clone) would likely be a good solution, if there is a problem.

Personally, I think the OP and his brother may be getting just a little ahead of themselves. While I wouldn't load up a thousand of those in that condition; I would certainly try a few dozen before I started chasing down a problem that might not be a problem.
Shoot a few first !

[VariableRecall]

You never said what type of sizer you used. If by any chance do you use a LYMAN especially the older style with a shoulder ( which cuts to the size) ? Newer style swage more without cutting. The Lee style swage also. The bare lead showing makes me wonder which type you use.


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OK! I've returned from some experimentation on Galvin's eqiupment, and I'm happy to report that I've had some good results using the 1/1 Nipple Cream/Petroleum Jelly combination. The result was a smooth, oily, pleasant smelling concoction that makes its way into every nook and cranny.

I'm using the Lee .452 Sizer Die. I applied the Nipple Jelly in a thin film on the sizing punch and the Hi-Tek Coated Boolits. Unlike last time, where I had used ZERO lube, counting on the coating to do the work, I ended up with leading.

However, Using the Nipple Jelly, almost all boolits made it out into the hopper unfazed, with very small chips flaking off of the boolits in the process.
Excited to try things out, I completed a small test. One with a Bonanza expanded Case (which can only expand after depriming, and the other using the Lee Expander. The results? The Lee Expander did a better job!
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Only a small amount lead showed up in front of the case mouth and the bullet was seated nicely in a smooth motion, like it should have.
270743

However, the extra-blunderbussed Bonanza expanded brass almost didn't fit in the seating die. I had to shove the brass through the seating die with way more force than anticipated and the result was a ring of about 60% of the case mouth covered by a little bit of lead.
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Still, after pulling the two bullets, the near perfect Lee expanded boolit still had a small part of Hi-Tek shedded off.
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However, the Bonanza bullet had the top band shaved off as usual with the poorer quality reloads from earlier.
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I think I'm onto something, and hopefully, all I may need to do is tweak the seating a bit and I think this problem could be solved!

[Adam20]

what stem is on the seating die, are the bullets going into the brass on a angle. should be using the flat end in seating die.
The picture above looks to have good flare so bullet should not be scraping as you seat it.

Does the die, seat and crimp at the same time?

Make sure the brass is sitting flat in shell holder also.

i know nothing about bonaza dies, other may know how the dies are designed

[Bkingnsmth]

So the exposed lead is done after seating? I would suspect your PCing. Will your coating stay on if smashed in a vise? Check your temp on your oven.


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[VariableRecall]

So the exposed lead is done after seating? I would suspect your PCing. Will your coating stay on if smashed in a vise? Check your temp on your oven.


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These are bullets from the Manufacturer Hoosier Bullets. Paid about 11 cents per bullet including shipping and taxes. Not a bad deal to be honest.

I think my brother's batch of bullets had a not so great coating. The ones on my .38 SWC's were gorgeous and didn't flake off at all when seating, even after I pulled them.

[VariableRecall]

what stem is on the seating die, are the bullets going into the brass on a angle. should be using the flat end in seating die.
The picture above looks to have good flare so bullet should not be scraping as you seat it.

Does the die, seat and crimp at the same time?


I haven't popped open the seating die just yet, but when I attempted to seat the boolit in the seating die, the extra wide Bonanza expansion just seemed to rest on the rim of the die. I had to shove the brass through in order for the boolit to seat. I should tone down the expansion if I ever were to use the Bonanza expander again.

Remember that the less pronounced Lee expansion managed to seat into the brass almost perfectly. I'd honestly have to chock up the shaved coating to a not so great Hi-Tek coating on that particular batch of bullets I had ordered.

[VariableRecall]

I'm also going to add the OAL measurement of the better boolit here as well.

270765

[toallmy]

I think you're on the right track , backing the seating die out a little .

[Bazoo]

I think, and I may be wrong, that your die has a roll crimp instead of a taper crimp. In older dies it used to be common to put a roll crimp in it and set the die so the case mouth will just kiss it to take the flare out. I had a Hornady set like that.

I'd guess that the coating coming off is a direct result of the crimp during disassembly, and it won't be an issue in actual firing.

Would they be safe to fire? Yes and no. Having a bit of uncoated bullet, or a bit of fine lead "hair" won't hurt it. It would just cause some leading, might not be enough to worry about or might be a lot. Only test firing will know.

Having a roll crimp that let's the case go past the chamber shoulder though would cause pressure to spike.

What seating stem you using? A flat stem, like for a semi wadcutter, it may be you need to start your bullet slightly and then back off the handle and let the die and bullet square up before seating fully. If you used a round nose seating stem it should come darn close to self centering.

I crimp and seat in the same operation and I get an occational lead hair, but in general it's problem free once you tweak your dies correctly.

[Conditor22]

The boolits are HiTek coated.
1) rub a coated boolit on a white cloth soaked with acetone and see if any color comes off
2) smash a boolit with a hammer on a piece of steel/anvil down to about 1/8 inch thick and see if you are getting any flaking

if you get coating scraped of while sizing you will need to smooth the entrance to your sizing die.: I use a felt bullet-shaped pad on a Dremel tool starting with coarse then fine polishing compound to smooth the entrance OR you can get a small piece of 400 grit wet/dry paper and make a small cone with the and on the outside then either use a sharpened stick or a Philips screwdriver bit and spin the sandpaper in the entrance of the sizing die.

the lee 45 acp powder through case neck expanding case mouth flaring die usually works just fine, just adjust it in until the case mouth flares a little allowing easy staring of the boolit.

[VariableRecall]

The boolits are HiTek coated.

the lee 45 acp powder through case neck expanding case mouth flaring die usually works just fine, just adjust it in until the case mouth flares a little allowing easy staring of the boolit.

Galvin actually purchased one of those so we could start expanding.

Also, we have dissasembled the Bonanza Expander and it turns out the depriming pin on the expander IS removable. however, it's a teeny piece that could easily get lost.

One thing Galvin noticed so far is that the Bonanza Seating Die (which I've wiped down with alcohol wipes) is that the seater is "cupped" with a long chamber which I believe should support the case instead of the Boolit.

[David2011]

“Fit just fine” is not a correct answer to the question. The photos look to me like the case mouths are severely over-crimped. The hard, bright ring at the mouth is what gives me that opinion. The mouth should be taper crimped to 0.471”. An over-crimped round will “fit just fine.” Flare enough that no lead is shaved and measure the crimp. Problem solved.

[Ford SD]

seat and crimp in two separate operations

Progressive Press and 2 seating dies

1st seating die sets the OAl

2nd Die taper crimps it... and you can also verify length

[WheelgunConvert]

The crimp is starting before the projectile is seated to length. As suggested above, seat and taper crimp in separate steps was my solution.

Not being a SA, but read a couple different brand die adjusting instructions. The concept is generally the same but some put it to words better than others.

[blackthorn]

One reason for saving small used prescription bottles is to store small, easily lost things like primer-punch pins.

[VariableRecall]

One reason for saving small used prescription bottles is to store small, easily lost things like primer-punch pins.

The funny thing is that I'm using a plastic container for Bullion cubes to store the miscellaneous equipment in our inventory. Cleaned it out the best I could but I'd assume the abrasiveness of the lock rings inside must have scuffed the surface enough so that everything in there smells like beef stock.

[VariableRecall]

seat and crimp in two separate operations

Progressive Press and 2 seating dies

1st seating die sets the OAl

2nd Die taper crimps it... and you can also verify length

We only have a single Lee Hand Press at our disposal. We'll be getting those nifty Lee Quick change lock rings soon to speed up the process. Considering that I've had great success with the Lee Factory Crimp die in .38 special, I may want to get one for .45 ACP for Galvin.

[gwpercle]

Seat the boolit ...no crimp
Taper crimp in a separate step ...

The boolit is still being seated , moving down in the case , while the crimp is applied ... the coating gets scraped off ..

Apply just enough crimp to remove the flare from the case and make it straight sided .
One of your photo's shows too much crimp ... back off the crimp die , the bright front edge is squeezing the case into the driving band and causing the coating to flake off at that point .

.452" sized boolits are much easier to work with but you can make .453" work ... just try seating and crimping in separate steps .

I load all my handgun ammo , 45 acp included with a lee hand press ... you can do it !
Gary

[VariableRecall]

Seat the boolit ...no crimp
Taper crimp in a separate step ...

The boolit is still being seated , moving down in the case , while the crimp is applied ... the coating gets scraped off ..

Apply just enough crimp to remove the flare from the case and make it straight sided .
One of your photo's shows too much crimp ... back off the crimp die , the bright front edge is squeezing the case into the driving band and causing the coating to flake off at that point .

.452" sized boolits are much easier to work with but you can make .453" work ... just try seating and crimping in separate steps .

I load all my handgun ammo , 45 acp included with a lee hand press ... you can do it !
Gary

At first I was quite apprehensive that such a diminutive press could work. But now that I've had ample experience with it, considering that I only expect to load about 50 or sounds rounds per session, the Hand Press is just what I need. It's a lovely tool and considering how much ammo I've reloaded with it, it's already paid for given the now ludicrous price of ammunition these days.

We will definitely size the SWC Boolits to .452 going forward. In our next set of tests we will definitely reduce the crimp to an absolute minimum.

By the way, would the Lanolin Nipple Cream/petroleum jelly lubricant affect the powder in any way? I doubt it but I'm just covering my bases.

[Wayne Smith]

First question - are these safe to shoot. If you are talking about case mouth headspace the answer is yes - they are safe to shoot. Every piece of 45ACP brass I have measured is short! My conclusion is that they are not seating on the case mouth but being held back against the bolt by the extractor. Thus you have no problem as long as they plunk in your chamber.

Second question - is your lube dangerous to the powder? Probably not to smokeless but I'd keep it off the bullet base anyway. That is the only access to the powder.

[VariableRecall]

First question - are these safe to shoot. If you are talking about case mouth headspace the answer is yes - they are safe to shoot. Every piece of 45ACP brass I have measured is short! My conclusion is that they are not seating on the case mouth but being held back against the bolt by the extractor. Thus you have no problem as long as they plunk in your chamber.

Second question - is your lube dangerous to the powder? Probably not to smokeless but I'd keep it off the bullet base anyway. That is the only access to the powder.

Thanks for the info. The coating of the lubricant is very thin, enough to know it's there by touch. probably should put some in the lube grooves considering how spotty the Hi-Tek coating is on Galvin's batch.

[Bazoo]

If you mean lube on the cases for sizing, yes it needs removed. It ain't good for the powder but of more concern it causes the cases to slip in the chamber upon firing. You can easily remove it with a water soaked rag, or a rag with a wet spot of lighter fluid.

Casings need to be free of oil when fired because they swell and grab the chamber walls. Otherwise, they put too much pressure against the breech face of the firearm in question. It's called bolt thrust, if you want to look it up.

[Bazoo]

Ya know, if y'all could hook up with someone that would set down and show you in detail how to set your dies, y'all would have a lot less problems. Course you might not learn as well that way. I learned without a mentor.

[VariableRecall]

Ya know, if y'all could hook up with someone that would set down and show you in detail how to set your dies, y'all would have a lot less problems. Course you might not learn as well that way. I learned without a mentor.

Galvin and I have found a Boolit Bud in our local area. He recommended the nipple cream concoction to us. Only a miniscule amount of lubricant is put onto the cases, and is mostly wiped off by handling.

[VariableRecall]

I'm getting the impression that this Bonanza Seating die is ONLY designed for Round-Nosed, Jacketed Bullets, not Lead Semi-Wadcutters. Once i get the chance I think Galvin and I are going to get a Lee Seating and crimping die.

[VariableRecall]

Well, Galvin and I had an excellent time at the range with his RIA 1911! Used his reloads so that over half of our rounds were our 200gn SWC's. We started with two magazines of factory ammunition, then about 5 magazines of our reloaded ammunition, and two magazines of our factory ammunition to "clean out" the bore.
Every round chambered beautifully. The "Plunk Test" reigned supreme and really made the difference!

One thing that I did notice was that our handloads which we had ran at around 5.1 grains of Win 231 had fairly significant amounts of unburned powder. I could see some amount of occasionally reddish blast as well. Perhaps the coating was flying out of the muzzle and mixing with the hot gases?

Another thing of note was that our PMC manufactured factory ammunition did not reliably lock the slide back upon an empty magazine. However, the Reloaded ammo that Galvin put together locked the slide back every time. Perhaps the RIA 1911 is a bigger fan of chewing on hotter GI style loads.

Looking through the bore myself, I saw that there was some leading, but nothing that looked as nightmarish as that other forum member with a heavily leaded barrel. I'd consider it a great victory! It allowed us to first familiarize ourselves with his RIA 1911, and preserve the little factory ammunition that we still have in stock.