severe leading on first cast boolits

[guy_with_boolits]

45 ACP in a 5" 1911
should be a starting load or just over a starting load in CFE pistol or IMR RED

200gn lee mold SWC
1.19" OAL
lubed with alox (v&m naptha with a few drops of alox, swirled around in a glass jar with a few dozen rounds, then baked in oven at 220F for 40 mins)

the lead is on the soft side...100% range pickup (from jacketed rounds), with maybe a small amount of tin from a single tin/lead 111 bar

this is the amount of lead after 7 rounds! I know because I saw this before those 7 rounds so I cleaned it and tried again..yep 7 rounds (maybe 90% since I couldnt get all of it out when I cleaned it before the last 7)

I was unable to do any serious accuracy tests. In general at 10 yards they seemed to generally hit what I was generally shooting at.

so questions:

a) this is indeed severe leading right? more than acceptable?
b) if so, whats causing this?
c) I do have everything I need to do powder coating instead...would that fix this?
d) maybe I didnt have enough alox? I heard the horror stories of too much so I thinned it with naptha and I dont see any yellow or brown..they do feel very very slightly tacky though
e) can I do a basic lead hardness test? I am imagining the lead is very soft

https://i.postimg.cc/Gm0GyQZj/leading.jpg

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

a) this is indeed severe leading right? more than acceptable?
Yes.

b) if so, whats causing this?
in only 7 rds, typically it's caused from bullets being sized too small, but alloy too soft can do that also. If the barrel throat is rough or has a burr or burrs can also be problematic.

c) I do have everything I need to do powder coating instead...would that fix this?
Maybe.

d) maybe I didnt have enough alox? I heard the horror stories of too much so I thinned it with naptha and I dont see any yellow or brown..they do feel very very slightly tacky though
Probably fine, poor lube job wouldn't cause that bad of Lead fouling in 7 rds.

e) can I do a basic lead hardness test? I am imagining the lead is very soft
I would test Lead hardness.

[guy_with_boolits]

a) this is indeed severe leading right? more than acceptable?
Yes.

b) if so, whats causing this?
in only 7 rds, typically it's caused from bullets being sized too small, but alloy too soft can do that also. If the barrel throat is rough or has a burr or burrs can also be problematic.

c) I do have everything I need to do powder coating instead...would that fix this?
Maybe.

d) maybe I didnt have enough alox? I heard the horror stories of too much so I thinned it with naptha and I dont see any yellow or brown..they do feel very very slightly tacky though
Probably fine, poor lube job wouldn't cause that bad of Lead fouling in 7 rds.

e) can I do a basic lead hardness test? I am imagining the lead is very soft
I would test Lead hardness.


thank you. the boolits were cast from a LEE mold, then sized using a lee sizer to .452

the gun is a new springfield 1911 with only a few hundreds rounds through it..if I recall it has a barrel on the tighter end of things (not sure where I'm getting that..I may have done a measurement of some kind in the past few months and it indicated to me that the barrel was "on the tighter end of things". I dont think the barrel has a rough spot or burr yet because its so new

I thought pistol lead could be very soft for a slower 45 ACP? what hardness should I shoot for?

I'll see if I can do a test

[Castaway]

Slug you barrel, measure your bullets and add some more lube. Try straight Lee Liquid Alox. If too soft, and you’re at the bottom end of charge weight, add a little more velocity

[nueces5]

What you have answered above is perfect. I would suggest that you start by measuring the diameter of your barrel and your boolits.
Measuring the hardness of your alloy, although it is probably too soft.
If you have everything to start PC, then start making PC.
You will make your dies less dirty, and you will have more to entertain yourself.
With these data, it will be easier to know where the problem is.
Greetings from Argentina

[sigep1764]

Definitely measure one of your sized boolits, seat it in a dummy case using your normal reloading procedures. Then pull the boolit from the case. Check the diameter, it should be the exact same as before you seated it. If it is not, there could be some over crimping. Are you seating and crimping in the same step? If not, I would separate these two steps. Just food for thought.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

the gun is a new springfield 1911 with only a few hundreds rounds through it..if I recall it has a barrel on the tighter end of things (not sure where I'm getting that..I may have done a measurement of some kind in the past few months and it indicated to me that the barrel was "on the tighter end of things". I dont think the barrel has a rough spot or burr yet because its so new

your thinking is opposite of reality.
Gun barrels get smoother (less rough and machining burrs worked out) the more they are shot. New barrels can be just fine, but they can also be rough from tool chatter or dull cutters...many gun makers cut corners to save money, Barrels only need to be finished to a certain level for jacketed bullets, so that's what most makers do, since that's what most shooters shoot. I've seen new barrels with awful looking throats that will causing Lead fouling using boolits, but will shoot jacketed bullets just fine.

[megasupermagnum]

lubed with alox (v&m naptha with a few drops of alox, swirled around in a glass jar with a few dozen rounds, then baked in oven at 220F for 40 mins)



Why did you bake them? You probably melted the lube right off of the bullets. In the same glass jar, add a handful of bullets, and a drip or two (pea size drop would be too much) of straight alox lube, then swirl to coat. Let dry over night. That should fix the problem.

[mehavey]

- Use full-strength Lee ALOX -- a dab on thumb/forefinger ("greasy fingers")
- "Grease-up" the bullets as you pick the up one at a time/place vertical/base down on a plate. Thin film. Bullet groove fill plays no part.
- (Renew the ALOX on your fingers every 4-5 bullets to keep things greasy)

Bake (yes bake) at 225 for 40-45 minutes/allow final cool/dry overnight. Thin-film/ALOX'd bullets will not be tacky at all at that point

Shoot them. :guntootsmiley:




postscript:
... just over a starting load...Depending on the results when using the pure/thin-film/baked/cooled/dried ALOX method above, consider upping the charge/fast powder
( I know it sounds paradoxical, but trust me. Lead bullets like enough pressure to bump up a bit at the very start)

[WHITETAIL]

I would coat them with JPW first.
After you have done what the other people have said.
IF your boolit is .002 over size of your bore.
you should not get leading.
With a little help we can get through this.:holysheep

[Castaway]

I don’t hand lube the individual bullets. I put them in a plastic tub, spill lube on them and shake, not stir. Every few hours I swing by the container and shake some more. No muss, no fuss.

[Bazoo]

Microwave the bottle of alox, use a hair dryer on the bullets. Dump them in a ziploc bag when warm, squirt in a dab of alox and knead the bag to coat. Let them dry on a wax paper over night. Yes they may be slightly tacky. Load them and shoot an see if they still lead.

[tomme boy]

Your lead is not too soft. I shot pure lead in my 45's just because at the time I had an excess of it. never had any problems. Only time I ever had any leading was using ALOX. It was the 45-45-10 mix from LARS. I ended up throwing it all away. Conventional lube and powder coat has never given me any problems.

[mehavey]

OK... you're gonna make me do it.

When following the procedure in Post #9 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5022012&viewfull=1#post5022012) I've run bullets -- light & heavy -- up to 2,450fps with spotless bores.
223/308/30-06/357/350Legend/375H&H/44Mag/45Colt/45-70/458WinMag....

Now you're gonna make me do it with 45 ACP/1911.

[smilie=6:

[243winxb]

Use IMR Red 4.8 grs . More pure Alox. Bullet diameter thats close to barrels grooved diameter. .451 or 452" Do not taper crimp to much. It can size the bullet smaller. Dont use a Lee factory crimp die.

[jimkim]

They aren't fat enough. Size them larger if you can. If not, try bumping them up one or two thousandths of an inch.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[Dusty Bannister]

I was curious what kind of load he was using and this is what he says in the first post.
"45 ACP in a 5" 1911
should be a starting load or just over a starting load in CFE pistol or IMR RED

200gn lee mold SWC
1.19" OAL
lubed with alox (v&m naptha with a few drops of alox, swirled around in a glass jar with a few dozen rounds, then baked in oven at 220F for 40 mins)"

Looking in the Hodgdon manual 2014 Data for the 45 ACP 200 grain cast LSWC bullet diameter .451 and cartridge OAL 1.225".

CFE starting load 7.4 grains, 1042 fps 15,000 PSI

Seems kind of hot for a starting load, seems kinda short OAL, very soft lead. No comment on how old the casting is, perhaps the casting has not had time to age harden. I did not even bother to look for data on the other powder. Perhaps a bit more information would be helpful? Maybe the bullet being used has a short nose. Conventional lube or TL style?

[Froogal]

I thin the ALOX with mineral spirits and then let the bullets air dry. Why would you bake them? Never had any leading issues in .38s or .357s.

[mehavey]

Why would you bake them? Because it accelerates drying (remarkable discovery!)/is no big deal.
Also the discovery that the thinnest coat is the most effective.

Thick/Tacky/Wet ALOX not completely dried provides almost no protection.
Fully dried/cured/thin -- the Cat's Meow

[gwpercle]

WOW !!!
That's the most impressive leading a barrel jobs in 7 shots I've ever seen ...but don't throw in the towel just yet . What I'm seeing is a combination of things all adding up to a perfect lead storm.
I'm going to hit on what's obvious to me . I've been casting and loading 45 acp since 1967 and have learned a few things the hard way .
1.) Check bore dia. and size boolit +.001 or +.002 over that dimension .
2.) You bullet lube isn't doing the job ... not enough lube is on the boolit
3.) Stop baking the lubed boolits ... 220 degrees for 40 mins. ??? this is softening the bullet and cooking the alox lube off .

Add some Clip on wheel weight metal to your range scrap 50-50 mix and air cool them .
Do Not Bake boolits unless you are powder coating them .
You need alox tumble lube w/o baking and make sure size of boolit is over size of barrel dia.
Small boolits will lead and ultra soft boolits with poor lube will lead .
It's not the alox lube in your case it's the oven baking that's hurting the lube .
Tumble lube , let dry and load .
Hint ... I tried tumble lube and it is ok but a Lyman 450 and Lithium Beeswax Lube is so much better .
Gary

[ShooterAZ]

My .02 cents (and you can keep the change). Start with a measured .452 diameter sized boolit.

1) Make sure you have adequate flair on the cases so you aren't swaging down your boolit diameter when seating them.

2) Don't over taper crimp, this can possibly reduce diameter.

3) Use more lube. Straight Alox works fine with a very thin coating applied. You can mix it 50/50 with mineral spirits, but I wouldn't dilute it more than that.

4) No need to bake the boolits, just let them air dry. A small fan helps with this.

Hope this helps!

[popper]

Soft lead, Lee sizer and alox will do that. Did the same in my XDm40 after ~5 shots. PC will eliminate (mostly) the problem, as will loading a few weeks after sizing. Also need the correct expander for the cases. First problem is Lee sizer @ 452 will NOT give 452 bullets for soft lead! Size a unprimed case, partially seat a sized bullet, gently pull it and check base dia. It will be smaller than you need and will lead terribly.

[mdi]

lubed with alox (v&m naptha with a few drops of alox, swirled around in a glass jar with a few dozen rounds, then baked in oven at 220F for 40 mins)
I understand thinning alox with naptha, but why bake? Attempting to dry the alox? I would suggest thinning some alox, if necessary, and follow directions for Lee alox...

[gpidaho]

I'd ditch the messy Alox and powder coat the bullets. I shoot .451 bullets of soft lead in my 45ACPs ( that's the size of my Blackhawk conversion cylinders throats) They shoot just fine in my other 45s without leading so I just keep everything the same. Gp

[mehavey]

"Messy" ALOX results using Post#9 "GreasyFingers" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5022012&viewfull=1#post5022012) Thin Film

1911 Gov't (original)
ProofMark 200gr H&G#68 (BN-15) -- all commercial lube boiled off/acetoned to bare lead
Lee-sized (again) to 0.452"
Then ALOX'd/thin-film/baked 30-min@225/shoot 24hrs later
Bullseye/4.2gr, Fed-LP
OAL 1.26"

10 Rounds/2Mags/30sec total
1 dry patch down muzzle, then pull and photograph forcing-cone/chamber

1,000 words.....

https://i.postimg.cc/Y2nydP0x/1911-45-Sandy-Barrel-After200-G-G-ALOX-Bullseye-sm.jpg



post:
I've got a true H&G#68_square-base/Accurate mould coming in.
'Will cast soft (30-1) and repeat...
But I don't expect anything different

[megasupermagnum]

I guess it just reaffirms the old saying. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I never would have thought of baking alox lube. In that case, I would pull a few bullets, and check their size. It is an incredibly common problem for brass to size bullets down.

[mehavey]

The secret (if there is one) is in the THIN film.
(Initial baking just accelerates the drying process.)
Truly-dried/thin-film ALOX is just slippery as all [expletive:veryconfu] under pressure.

*post: No "crimp" ... just size the case mouth back to 0.471"

[wv109323]

one more thing I will add. With your soft lead make sure you are not sizing down your bullets when you are seating them in the brass. Load a round and pull the bullet to make sure it is .452 after seating. The best accuracy for the 200 g. SWC is around 750 FPS.

[Conditor22]

"I do have everything I need to do powder coating instead...would that fix this?" PC will make softer boolits tougher.

This is a valid point, you are using soft lead --- OK but soft lead is easier to be compressed when seating the boolit in the brass.

Yes you can flare the case mouth the eliminate shaving of the boolit BUT that doesn't stop the compressing of the boolits

The cheapest fix is to get a lee powder-through-die to flare the case mouth and expand the case neck so you're not compressing the boolit when your seating it.

You could also use an NOE cases neck expander ( large measurement is the flare small measurement is the case neck expander size {I use the same size as the boolit I'm seating because brass springs back .001 to .0015 after expanding})

A Lyman M die (I know nothing about these)

[cp1969]

There's a lot of good cast bullet info in Glen Friyxell's work, including leading.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

[mehavey]

Saturday I received Tom's ACCURATE 45-200H (H&G-68) and cast up two dozen bullets out of soft (30-1) Alloy that measures short of 6 BHN (i.e, it's really SOFT)

Yesterday ...
- I sized eight to .452, and greasy-fingered/baked ALOX at 225/1-hr
- I PC'd eight w/ Eastwood Green Mirror, and sized to .452


Today I loaded all at 4.6gr/WST/FedLP/1.26 OAL and shot them.

Both gave me 2" at 25 yds.
PC centered top right quadrant of 4" bull.
ALOX centered bottom right of same 4" bull.

BOTH gave me light "scuffing" in 1st 1/2" of barrel
BOTH otherwise left mirror-finish in rest of 5" barrel

LABRADAR-Vel
PdrCt: 785 ± 9
ALOX: 781 ±6

Tonight I'll cast Lyman#2
and shoot again tomorrow

[guy_with_boolits]

Saturday I received Tom's ACCURATE 45-200H (H&G-68) and cast up two dozen bullets out of soft (30-1) Alloy that measures short of 6 BHN (i.e, it's really SOFT)

Yesterday ...
- I sized eight to .452, and greasy-fingered/baked ALOX at 225/1-hr
- I PC'd eight w/ Eastwood Green Mirror, and sized to .452


Today I loaded all at 4.6gr/WST/FedLP/1.26 OAL and shot them.

Both gave me 2" at 25 yds.
PC centered top right quadrant of 4" bull.
ALOX centered bottom right of same 4" bull.

BOTH gave me light "scuffing" in 1st 1/2" of barrel
BOTH otherwise left mirror-finish in rest of 5" barrel

LABRADAR-Vel
PdrCt: 785 ± 9
ALOX: 781 ±6

Tonight I'll cast Lyman#2
and shoot again tomorrow

This is very useful info thanks, could you comment a bit more on your exact ALOX procedure? I'm trying to get the amount right.

Are you going to push the velocity up and see how it goes?

[mehavey]

See Post#9 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5022012&viewfull=1#post5022012) for ALOX use/bake/dry/sit in front of room fan thereafter -- 20-hr cycle from evening coat/bake to next afternoon load/shoot. It's got to be absolutely dry (being thin helps that)
I tend to stick to as soft an alloy as possible, considering....


If I'm going to go past 18,000psi, I'll gas-check/shift to Lyman#2 alloy.
From that point I've gone up to 35-45ksi/2,500fps in Rifles (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?368459-223-cast-bullets-w-ar15&p=4472544&viewfull=1#post4472544)
See also here w/ LEGEND-1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?405139-Optimal-calibers-for-cast-AR-ahooting&p=4942993&viewfull=1#post4942993) and LEGEND-2 (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6772223&postcount=57)

[fredj338]

Wrong lube imo. I think baking the lubed bullets is where the lube fails plus just go straight Alox. Check the actually loaded diameter by pulling a loaded bullet. Yes you can shoot pretty soft lead bullets in a 45acp with proper size & decent lube.

[mehavey]

I think baking the lubed bullets is where the lube fails...
Unfortunately, the data proves that wrong.
Please see links in Post #33 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5028495&viewfull=1#post5028495) again. [smilie=s:

(You are correct in using thin/greasy-coat straight ALOX though) :drinks:

[Chemoman]

i have 14 revolvers. 22 lr, 45 long colt and 38 special. solved the leading problem with the 45 long colt and 38 special by using a 60 thousands thick wad behind the bullet next to the powder. no hot gasses touch the bullet, then no leading. the 22 lr dont need it, they never lead up. i know i sound like a broken record on this but of course it works.

[JoeJames]

I don’t hand lube the individual bullets. I put them in a plastic tub, spill lube on them and shake, not stir. Every few hours I swing by the container and shake some more. No muss, no fuss.Agree. Per y'all's instructions I ran a thin line of Lee Liquid Alox mix with mineral spirits 50-50 on my boolits in the tub, tumbled regularly, and left the lid off between times (they ended up kind of bronze looking); after a day or so spread them out on tinfoil sheet to dry out completely. No leading at all in my 32S&W Longs or in my 44 Special.

[canyon-ghost]

Aside from all other things, copper fouling from Jack-word factory ammo can shred lead bullets. I ended up scrubbing out a 41 mag four times before it was clean enough to shoot lead. Factory stuff leaves behind some pretty hard fouling. Just a thought.
Ron

[rockrat]

And if you want to try a bit harder boolit, you could drop the boolits from the mould into a bucket of cold water (water quenching), then let them dry and then lube.
If I use the LLA, I dilute it 50/50 with mineral spirits and put about 50-100 (depends on size) boolits in a plastic container with about 8 drops of lube and swirl. Dump on a screen mesh tray and put above a propane wall heater in the shop and let dry overnight at least.

I also use LLA thinned about 8/1 (m.s. to lla) and coat rifle boolits so as to have a very, very thin coat on the boolit. Helps when I size them and I figure the light film on the boolits nose doesn't hurt things. I have a few pistol moulds that are a bit oversize and this helps when I run them thru the Star.

[guy_with_boolits]

well I think I see my problem

these videos showing how much alox to use literally show about 50 times more than I used...I used a few drops and cut it with alot of naptha

these guys are gripping the alox bottle like a baseball bat and squeezing it out like they are making a hot dog!!! whatttt????

even the lee video shows it

So now I'm doing the greasy fingers method modified to use a bag so more like greasy bag method, and I'm putting plenty of alox on there, basically whats show in the video but adjusted for my number of bullets (reasonable handful)

https://youtu.be/CduXYE_ISVU?t=151
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLbdf6cVpI

[P Flados]

Just one more input to your situation.

I have the same Lee mold. I cast the bullets, tumble lube the bullets (BLL) and load the bullets.

When I started I wanted to see if they would work without sizing. Worked good right off. Never bought a 45 sizer.

The original gun was replaced. The second gun also liked them as cast. I was happy:bigsmyl2:

I really recommend trying it the easy way to see what happens. What can it hurt (other than yet another lead removal session).

[guy_with_boolits]

Just one more input to your situation.

I have the same Lee mold. I cast the bullets, tumble lube the bullets (BLL) and load the bullets.

When I started I wanted to see if they would work without sizing. Worked good right off. Never bought a 45 sizer.

The original gun was replaced. The second gun also liked them as cast. I was happy:bigsmyl2:

I really recommend trying it the easy way to see what happens. What can it hurt (other than yet another lead removal session).

Thanks. I already tried without a sizer and the bullets would definitely not chamber.

So now what I am doing is:

half the boolits of same alloy alox'd using the greasy bad/fingers method from post #9 (warm alox, plenty of it, tumbled in a bag, dried overnight).
half the boolits pc'd @ 400 for 20mins the water dropped

both sized to 452 before alox/PC..not sure if I will re-size alox but I will resize PC

as expected some of the PC boolits have missing PC because of touching other boolits or the rack they were on..is that a big deal?

https://i.postimg.cc/Zq1P7tBC/20210123-193921a.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/k5VFvX50/20210123-193936a.jpg

[TNsailorman]

I know what you mean. I had a Lee 200 gr. RNFP .45 mold that was a disappointment at first, leaded barrel and accuracy suffered. Then just as I was about to sell it, I cast a few, did not size them, and tumble lubed them with LLA. Shot beautifully without leading and were as good in the accuracy department that I ever got with that revolver. You never know for sure until to try. james

[mehavey]

... both sized to 452 before alox/PC..not sure if I will re-size alox but I will resize PC
You need to size only once in each case:

- Before ALOX (not after)
- After PC (not before)

(I suggest Lee push-through if that's not you're already using)


BREAK BREAK ***
If you're loading 45 ACP (?), adjust the seater/taper crimp to produce/reduce
mouth diameter to 0.471(-) to ensure chamber/plunk.

[onelight]

I know what you mean. I had a Lee 200 gr. RNFP .45 mold that was a disappointment at first, leaded barrel and accuracy suffered. Then just as I was about to sell it, I cast a few, did not size them, and tumble lubed them with LLA. Shot beautifully without leading and were as good in the accuracy department that I ever got with that revolver. You never know for sure until to try. james
I had that same experience with the Lee TL 200 swc and the 32 90 grain TL bullet when I quit sizing they both worked much better :)

[pmer]

First thing I'd do is go to the store and get some Chore Boy copper scrubbers. (Like steel wool but copper) tear off a chunk and wrap it around a bore bush, it will work great to remove the lead. Clean the barrel and chamber using care to make sure there is no ring of lead at the end of chamber where the case mouth hits the chamber.

If you have any loaded rounds left take each round (all of them) and drop them into the chamber. They should all hit the chamber mouth with a nice thud and the rim needs to be flush with the hood. That's the plunk test, and they should fall out by tipping the barrel upside down. You may find the 1.190 oal is a bit long and compared to jacketed bullets crimping lead boolits needs to be more precise. Back the tapper crimp out till the flare from seating is gone then move it in till you can measure .471 or .472.

But the crimp measurement and the plunk test needs to be SOP for any lead boolit your loading in auto loaders.

With this out of the way you can look to other issues like size and lube etc.

[Rich/WIS]

Can't comment on the TL method as I am old school and use a lube/sizer with the same Lee non TL bullet. My standard alloy for 45 ACP in a Springfield Range Officer was range scrap and did not have leading issues. Even in other calibers the range lead was hard enough if velocities were kept down. There is something else going on if you are getting leading that severe.

[guy_with_boolits]

You need to size only once in each case:

- Before ALOX (not after)
- After PC (not before)

(I suggest Lee push-through if that's not you're already using)


BREAK BREAK ***
If you're loading 45 ACP (?), adjust the seater/taper crimp to produce/reduce
mouth diameter to 0.471(-) to ensure chamber/plunk.

okie doke
I'm on track to that plan
boolits are PC'd / alox'd (not both ha) and I will be loading them up today
somewhere between 4 and 5gn bullseye havent decided yet

the 1.19" COAL is from my plunk test. It puts the case just slightly proud of the barrel shroud and with very light pressure it goes flush...definitely way less pressure than chambering a round
should the plunk test be a hard stop or just dropped in?

from what I read the round should go flush with NO pushing, and should also rotate freely..mine does neither so I guess I need a shorter COAL..but then it will be going below the minimum in the load data (1.19")

[Conditor22]

Soft lead is fine for 45 ACP velocities, especially with PC.

Yes only size PC'd boolits after you PC them .452 work in all my 45's

sizing/loading .452 boolits doesn't do any good IF they don't stay .452 when loaded. IF you don't expand the case neck you can downsize the boolit forcing it into the case [this is the biggest mistake people make with 9mm but applies to all calibers]

Pull a freshly seated boolit the a seated and crimped boolit and see what size they still are at the drive bands.
You're doing a good job PCing, I wouldn't mess with the messy alox, especially with the added benefit the PC polymer coating gives you.

I go 8-10 BHN for my 45's sized .452 with the case neck expanded by the lee powder through die and get no leading.

measure how high the powder fills the case and how deep you will seat the boolit and see if you are compressing the load, with 5 grns BE in a 45 case, I doubt you are even close to compressing the load even if you seat it to where the end of the lube grooves where the nose starts.

[mehavey]

...should the plunk test be a hard stop or just dropped in?The round should drop in totally freely, and literally go "plunk" when the 0.471(-) mouth hit hard stop.


...guess I need a shorter COALOn the note... OAL may have nothing to do w/ interference fit at all.
Get the mouth first to 0.471 to eliminate that variable.
If still unable to "plunk," then adjust OAL.

[guy_with_boolits]

The round should drop in totally freely, and literally go "plunk" when the 0.471(-) mouth hit hard stop.

On the note... OAL may have nothing to do w/ interference fit at all.
Get the mouth first to 0.471 to eliminate that variable.
If still unable to "plunk," then adjust OAL.

okay well this may have been my problem, along with not enough alox...my plunk test DEFINITELY did not allow rotation or free drop....

to be sure what you are saying, you are suggesting that the cast mouth may have been expanded by something (expander die, boolit too big, whatever) and thats actually causing the interference and plunk-fail, not the actual OAL, right?

measuring one of my 1.19" failure cartridges shows that the case around the bullet is 0.472" while below that its more like 0.470"

putting sharpie on the cartridge shows contact is actually on the case lip, I dont see any marks on the bullet itself..so you may be right

[guy_with_boolits]

yep..putting my calipers along the axis of the cartridge, I can clearly see the bellmouth is still there......

so, seat my bullet die a little deeper to get rid of it?

[mehavey]

No. Not yet.

Withdraw the seating stem completely.
Screw the die body down gradually to taper the mouth back to 0.471"

Once that's done, try the plunk test again.
If it works this time, screw the seating stem down meet the bullet and lock things there.
Then you have a setup for both seat/taper in 1-step.

[guy_with_boolits]

okay I seated my bullet die lower (the whole die) and then loosened the bullet seating knob all the way so its not touching
then I ran one of my 1.19" cartridges through it, and it definitely reduced the cast mouth, and now the bullet plunks MUCH better

however..this process shaved some brass from the case
and
the bullet doesnt quite rotate freely when plunked...ALMOST..but you have to take a tiny amount of pressure off it to rotate it

[guy_with_boolits]

No. Not yet.

Withdraw the seating stem completely.
Screw the die body down gradually to taper the mouth back to 0.471"

Once that's done, try the plunk test again.
If it works this time, screw the seating stem down meet the bullet and lock it there.
Then you have a setup for both seat/taper in 1-step.

I did, just to make sure you didnt miss my post..we posted at same moment

[guy_with_boolits]

https://i.postimg.cc/c4kw3HSp/20210124-100337.jpg

[mehavey]

Lowering the seating die body (only) shaved brass ?
(Or just wiped some of the magic marker off ?)

[guy_with_boolits]

Lowering the seating die body (only) shaved brass ?
(Or just wiped some of the magic marker off ?)

yep shaved brass....

but now, redoing the sharpie test, the marks show up on the bullet, not the case..so it seems the case is no longer the issue

maybe on these cases I had wayyy too much flare from the powder through die and the bullet die cant un-do it without shaving brass?

regardless, at the moment it seems now I am actually at a COAL issue if the bullet it hitting rifling and preventing free rotation right?

[mehavey]

At this point (mouth at 471), you might try seating the bullet just a scosh deeper.
But if the cartridge is currently seating with the rim flush on plunk/no force, I'd just walk away for now and shoot it

[waksupi]

okay I seated my bullet die lower (the whole die) and then loosened the bullet seating knob all the way so its not touching
then I ran one of my 1.19" cartridges through it, and it definitely reduced the cast mouth, and now the bullet plunks MUCH better

however..this process shaved some brass from the case
and
the bullet doesnt quite rotate freely when plunked...ALMOST..but you have to take a tiny amount of pressure off it to rotate it

I had to seat and crimp in separate steps, using a taper crimp.

[guy_with_boolits]

At this point (mouth at 471), you might try seating the bullet just a scosh deeper.
But if the cartridge is currently seating with the rim flush on plunk/no force, I'd just walk away for now and shoot it

so now what I've done is:

-very carefully adjust depth of bullet die (whole die, not the seater plug), to make it so case mouth is straight with no inward crimp
-seating bullet lower, like to 1.16" COAL

This results in a plunk test that has pretty free rotation..not as free as a bare case but pretty free..

However, case bottom is now slightly below barrel hood...

I notice that empty cases are also below barrel hood by what seems to be same amount..

Is the idea here that no part of the bullet touches the barrel during the plunk test and the case is located entirely by the case lip?

[mehavey]

The case headspaces on the rim.

If the pistol still fires reliably with rim seating flush/just slightly below the hood, you're OK.
As to "no part of the bullet" contacting the throat/barrel -- as long as the cartridge seats freely -- that's OK too.

[guy_with_boolits]

The case headspaces on the rim.

If the pistol still fires reliably with rim seating flush/just slightly below the hood, you're OK.
As to "no part of the bullet" contacting the throat/barrel -- as long as the cartridge seats freely -- that's OK too.

thanks...

so what is the bottom line with "minimum coal" specified in load data? why is that even specified if its sometimes impossible to maintain?

[onelight]

so now what I've done is:

-very carefully adjust depth of bullet die (whole die, not the seater plug), to make it so case mouth is straight with no inward crimp
-seating bullet lower, like to 1.16" COAL

This results in a plunk test that has pretty free rotation..not as free as a bare case but pretty free..

However, case bottom is now slightly below barrel hood...

I notice that empty cases are also below barrel hood by what seems to be same amount..

Is the idea here that no part of the bullet touches the barrel during the plunk test and the case is located entirely by the case lip?

You can use a bullet to set the headspace , I don't it can cause problems that offset any accuracy gain I may get.
For how I use my loads reliability is first.
If your bullet engages the rifling you run the risk of the gun not going into battery and or or a bullet sticking and making it very difficult to get the slide back and possibly pulling the bullet from the case and leaving it in the barrel . It's not a dangerous situation at the range (you can't chamber a round behind it) but is a pain to get a rod and remove it. I personally want a plunk test that duplicates factory ammo in my range ammo.
You may have different priorities .

[pmer]

Sounds like guy with boolits is well on his way. I was in the same boat with my 1911 in times past. Pistol brass seems to get shorter with use I don't think I've ever had to trim them for being too long. Pistols are designed to operate with certain nose profiles and cartridge lengths and that might be why your book shows a minimum OAL. But go with it if it feeds nice. I don't have that Lee boolit, I have a Redding 200 grain SWC, I seem to get the best plunk / feeding when the shoulder is just slightly above the case mouth. I don't know what the length is.

[P Flados]

The Min AOL in the load data can be very important.

What it means is that if you go shorter, and you load with the charge listed you can expect higher pressures.

However, that does not mean "do not load to that AOL". It means you need to back off some on the charge.

I have a tool (Quickload) that is actually pretty good at "adjusting loads" for thing like this. I ran a case with Bullseye and a 200 gr bullet in 45 ACP and found that a 0.020" shorter AOL required 0.2 gr less powder to get the same predicted pressure.

FYI, When you are asking questions about a load that is giving you problems, listing all of the details of the load lets some of us provide responses that are more tailored to your exact situation.

[guy_with_boolits]

I went and shot 7 rounds of this load today:

LEE 452-200-SWC tumble boolit, most likely very soft lead (but not pure)
PC'd 20 mins @ 400F then water dipped
4.6gn bullseye
1.164" COAL
range pickup brass
large pistol primers
1911 5" barrel
carefully adjusted bullet seating die BODY to make case straight with no inward or outward flare on lip
carefully adjusted bullet seating DEPTH so plunk test allowed easy rotation (only 4 of the 7 actually were completely easy, the other 3 were a little tight but still rotated)


I was not able to chrono so I just shot at an empty water bottle at 7 yards.

Seems reasonably accurate since I got two hits within 2".

However, 3 of the 7 failed to feed and jammed on the way into the ramp, leaving a nice dent on the case.

Any way to fix this? Or should I just move on to a different mold/boolit?

EDIT: also shown are 2 cases I picked up after firing..couldnt find the other 2 that fired

https://i.postimg.cc/JhLDX8Zb/20210124-162649.jpg

[243winxb]

"jammed"

The case head must slide up & under tne extractor freely. But first try different magazines. If you have more that 1 magazine, number them, so you know what one doesnt feed.

[guy_with_boolits]

I can make it jam on the bench just running the cycle...

pictured is the type of jam I was getting while trying to shoot..either from a slide release or an actual full cyclce

I mean the SWC doesnt have as nice of a curve to angle it up as an RN does. The super soft lead probably isnt helping either.

The pic shows how the cases get their dents..they get smashed onto the inner edge of the chamber bevel when the soft squarish SWC front end gets stuck on the chamber roof because the SWC has more of a squarish profile that doesnt smoothly rotate it, and even if it might the soft lead flattens out making things worse as far as transmitting forces which would turn the boolit


https://i.postimg.cc/0QVxDMrT/Untitled.jpg

[guy_with_boolits]

I seem to see two equally common but opposite recommendations for SWC in 45ACP and 1911s: load them short, and load them long.

Maybe I need to load them long, and maybe I incorrectly came to the conclusion I had to load them short with the plunk test I was doing. After all, if the chamber headspaces on the case, and there is a distance between that headspacing shoulder and the rifling, shouldnt the boolit fit in that space without touching?

[David2011]

The following may or may not help but it’s something else to consider for feeding. I’ve done quite a bit of 1911 work including some to make very light loads feed reliably which is more difficult than reliably feeding full or near full power loads.

Be sure you’re measuring the case mouths at .471” and not just observing that the walls are “straightened out.” There can be a burr on the mouth so I measure just a hair’s breadth behind the mouth.

The feeding of a 1911 is not a smooth event as bolt action rifles do. The slide bangs into the head of the cartridge and then the forward end starts to rise as the case exits the magazine feed lips. The cartridge is slammed into the feed ramp at quite an angle. The cartridge has to pivot over the intersection of the barrel part of the feed ramp and the bottom of the chamber. As it pivots the case head slides up under the extractor and the cartridge is driven into the chamber as the gun goes into battery.

There are many places where this can go badly. One common problem is where the feed ramp meets the chamber. On new barrels that juncture can be pretty sharp. I’ve fixed stoppages caused there by polishing a tiny radius at the juncture. This is not a place to try out a Dremel tool. It requires a fine touch and some gunsmithing experience.

Another common problem is the extractor tension. If it’s too tight it will slow down the slide and the loading process. A well prepared extractor lets the case slide under it smoothly.

Soft lead may ding as it hits the feed ramp or the top of the chamber but it shouldn’t cause a stoppage. You can experiment with dummy cartridges (no primer or powder) with varying COALS. SWCs are different than the ball ammo profile in the max OAL requirement and every SWC profile has its own best OAL for your gun. For testing pull the slide all the way back and fully release it. If your hand rides the slide forward that will slow it down and possibly cause jams.

[guy_with_boolits]

The following may or may not help but it’s something else to consider for feeding. I’ve done quite a bit of 1911 work including some to make very light loads feed reliably which is more difficult than reliably feeding full or near full power loads.

Be sure you’re measuring the case mouths at .471” and not just observing that the walls are “straightened out.” There can be a burr on the mouth so I measure just a hair’s breadth behind the mouth.

The feeding of a 1911 is not a smooth event as bolt action rifles do. The slide bangs into the head of the cartridge and then the forward end starts to rise as the case exits the magazine feed lips. The cartridge is slammed into the feed ramp at quite an angle. The cartridge has to pivot over the intersection of the barrel part of the feed ramp and the bottom of the chamber. As it pivots the case head slides up under the extractor and the cartridge is driven into the chamber as the gun goes into battery.

There are many places where this can go badly. One common problem is where the feed ramp meets the chamber. On new barrels that juncture can be pretty sharp. I’ve fixed stoppages caused there by polishing a tiny radius at the juncture. This is not a place to try out a Dremel tool. It requires a fine touch and some gunsmithing experience.

Another common problem is the extractor tension. If it’s too tight it will slow down the slide and the loading process. A well prepared extractor lets the case slide under it smoothly.

Soft lead may ding as it hits the feed ramp or the top of the chamber but it shouldn’t cause a stoppage. You can experiment with dummy cartridges (no primer or powder) with varying COALS. SWCs are different than the ball ammo profile in the max OAL requirement and every SWC profile has its own best OAL for your gun. For testing pull the slide all the way back and fully release it. If your hand rides the slide forward that will slow it down and possibly cause jams.

Good info..key question that you would probably know the answer to..given all the above, why would round nose feed so easily and so universally but SWC feed so unreliably and much less universally

[P Flados]

I am not sure how to help you with the feeding issues, but I did run some stuff through Quickload.

You have the Lee tumble lube 200 gr. At 0.578" long, this bullet is shorter than most 200 SWCs. For a given AOL, a short bullet gives you more space in the case and less pressure. Note that the Alliant load data includes the Speer 200 LSWC. That bullet is 0.660" or 0082" longer that yours. To get the same seating depth as the Alliant 1.2" AOL with the Speer, you would be at 1.118" AOL with the Lee.

Just for margin I used an AOL a little shorter than your current load at 1.15". I then found it took 5.3 gr of Bullseye to stay just below the pressures I got when ran the Alliant 200 SWC load. Calculated speed from a 5" gun was 960 fps.

If this is just a target/plinking load, I would go for a charge that is just a little above the minimum needed to cycle the gun properly.

[guy_with_boolits]

I did a specific test to see if I could somehow load these long..like 1.250" which I seem to see recommended..

nope..bullet clearly headspacing right up to 1.18" when you could finally rotate the case pretty freely

dropping the boolit into the chamber shows it falls about 0.030" past the ridge that headspaces the case

not sure how people are loading to 1.250" COAL....must have a huge gap between rifling and case mouth in their chamber..mine is not like that

[guy_with_boolits]

I am not sure how to help you with the feeding issues, but I did run some stuff through Quickload.

You have the Lee tumble lube 200 gr. At 0.578" long, this bullet is shorter than most 200 SWCs. For a given AOL, a short bullet gives you more space in the case and less pressure. Note that the Alliant load data includes the Speer 200 LSWC. That bullet is 0.660" or 0082" longer that yours. To get the same seating depth as the Alliant 1.2" AOL with the Speer, you would be at 1.118" AOL with the Lee.

Just for margin I used an AOL a little shorter than your current load at 1.15". I then found it took 5.3 gr of Bullseye to stay just below the pressures I got when ran the Alliant 200 SWC load. Calculated speed from a 5" gun was 960 fps.

If this is just a target/plinking load, I would go for a charge that is just a little above the minimum needed to cycle the gun properly.

thanks..if I somehow fix the feeding issues and proceed with this SWC boolit this info will help maximize things

[P Flados]

It just occurred to me that your opening post did not mention jams.

Did the jams start after you reduction in AOL. If so, you may want to see if going back to a little longer AOL fixes the jams even if you are not getting a perfect plunk.

If this fixes the jams, a less than perfect plunk might be something you can live with as long as the gun is reliable in going into battery (slide fully forward) and as long as you can eject loaded cartridges without any problems.

Alternately, the gun can be fixed to remove (ream, lap, polish etc.) a little metal at the throat and make the gun more "cast friendly". A poster on this forum (Doug Guy) does this a lot & folks seem to be well pleased with his work. He would also be likely willing to polish a little on your ramp if desired.

[P Flados]

.must have a huge gap between rifling and case mouth in their chamber..mine is not like that

For cast bullets, a more than minimal throat is usually a good thing. Many autos have minimal throats. This is why so many people have resorted to getting their guns "fixed" by people like Doug Guy.

[fcvan]

"why would round nose feed so easily and so universally but SWC feed so unreliably and much less universally" Pretty easy, the design from early last century was for RN FMJ, period. The RN hits and guides the bullet/boolit more easily than a SWC with 2 separate contact points during the feed cycle. I bought a SA plain Jane 1911 in 1987, parkerized finish. At the time, Colt 1911s were 400, the SA was 269. It wasn't 6 months later that the SA 1911 was going for the same price as they became popular for competitors who sent their guns to the gunsmith for tweaking as the quality was there.

First mold, Lee 452-228 1R, then the 452-200 SWC. I did nothing to the gun but shoot it and it fed the SWC just fine. The chamber of the SA was 'generous' so I figure that might have helped. I never really 'hot rodded' loads for the 1911, and generally ran 6 gr of Unique as my go-to load, even though the Lyman #49 suggested slightly over 7 was within specs.

Later, I picked up a couple more molds, the Lee 450- 200 1R and the 450-200 RNHP, back when they made such things. Sure, the 450 molds were conicals for an 1858 Rem Percussion and were tapered bases to ease seating in the 1858 copy. I decisded I like shooting RB more than anything, so I loaded a few more for the 45 ACP just to try. Lead was from a range where everything fired was 38 SP HBWC, swaged from pretty soft lead. I ran them through the Lyman 450 at .452 using Javalina (50/50 Alox/Beeswax). The boolits were definitely sized down, with the tapered bases barely being touched. My molds dropped fatter than .450 diameter. They fed and shot fine through the 1911.

Flash forward about 30+ years, I tended to load and shoot just the 452-228 1R even though I had collected q few more molds. I stopped loading the 200 SWC and did a horse trade with a member here during the last component shortage. Just back from the sandbox after 8 years and many tours as a Marine, he got dies and that mold, and I got some 'odds and ends' he had collected while looking for what he wanted/needed. It felt good to help someone who fought for us, and I got some goodies I would not have normally picked up.

Then, I got into 45 Colt and picked up a 20" carbine and a 4 5/8" OM Vaquero. More molds . . . I did hot rod that once, using the 450-200 RN molds, also with Javalina. Same soft lead, same Javalina, 2000 fps, no leading. I also started making plain based gas checks out of soda can aluminum, even though they didn't need them. I still have a bunch of those lubed/sized and boxed up with wax paper between layers. I started powder coating everything, first with ESPC, next ASBBPC, ala shake and bake. I haven't used my Lyman 450 for almost 8 or 9 years.

Okay, long winded, but it is a long entry to say, I know what my barrel/gun is, you did not name yours. I did not fire any jacketed until I had probably 15 or 20K boolits down the pipe. Since I didn't have copper fouling in the bore I did not experience any associated fouling. Did you fire jackets before lead boolits? That could contribute to the kind of leading shown in your pictures. Clean the bore of any copper and see. Your liquid alox may very well have been too 'watered down' to do much good. I have only used liquid alox a couple of times, most recently in a 300 BO at 2000 fps. that was 50/50 alox/mineral spirits, 2 coats. That rifle had never seen a jacketed bullet, it was unfired.

In a previous post, it was mentioned that a rough bore from a worn die for cutting the lands/grooves. There are plenty of threads about fire lapping a bore to smooth it out. I just shoot mine, and my most recent builds haven't seen jacketed, just PC without gas checks and with. The 45 ACP should not need gas checks, it just doesn't develop that much speed or pressure. Not even the 2000 FPS RN from the 45 Colt carbine was a problem with leading. Still, my favorte load for that carbine and the Vaquero was a 454 RB, crimped on the equator of the RB, going 900 FPS from the carbine, didn't chrono the Vaquero, but they were quiet and hard hitting.

Good luck with your endeavors, try 2 coats, shoot more PCd boolits (they clean out lead and copper fouling) and if you feel the need to fire lap the bore, go slow. PCd boolit, Pearl Drops Tooth Polish in the lube groove, shoot 10 and check. Don't load a bunch as you won't need a bunch. Another thing is the new gun needs to break in as well. My gunsmith was also a competitive shooter and made the following suggestion. Clean the heck out of the gun, 2 drops of Pearl Drops on the rail/slide, 1 on the sear, shoot a box, clean and lube the pistol as normal. My SA 1911 was smooth as silk after 1 box as would normally occur after 1000 rounds. Unorthodox? Probably, but it beat fighting a new pistol that needed the mating surfaces to 'break in.' Mine still shoots like the dickens and was my EDC for several decades, then my Wife bought me a Glock 22C. Another story for another time, but it sees a steady diet of cast lead, no Glock Kaboom.

[guy_with_boolits]

Thanks for the info fcvan

I forgot to mention that the 4 rounds I was able to fire did not seem to leave leading. Just maybe a dark shadow in the grooves.

I have put up an ad for wanted-to-buy 45ACP round nose mold. A fine forum member has offered a double cavity Ideal 452-374. Its not a tumble lube style but that doesn't matter if I PC it right? I think its a 225 grain.

Would that put an end to my SWC woes? I dont even know why I got SWC to begin with. After studying my pistol and the posts here it seems like the 1911 design was meant for the round nose given how it feeds so I dont know why I wouldnt just use that.

I think I can use my lee handles with this mold too.

[mehavey]

Don't give up on that SWC "just yet"

Believe it or not, try increasing the OAL a tad to get the nose to strike
the chamber top/tip over/straighten out a skosh quicker.

As long as the cartridge rim stays at/below the barrel hood when dropped in, you should be Good2Go.

[guy_with_boolits]

Don't give up on that SWC "just yet"

Believe it or not, try increasing the OAL a tad to get the nose to strike
the chamber top/tip over/straighten out a skosh quicker.

As long as the cartridge rim stays at/below the barrel hood when dropped in, you should be Good2Go.

thats the thing...at 1.18" the case bottom is flush with the barrel hood..and at that length I think I probably still have these problems

however technically, I loaded them to 1.164"...so maybe the extra .016" will fix it..I'll try it since I have about 100 boolits now read to load

but I went and bought a MP-452-200 mold so hopefully that will solve all my issues no matter what when it gets here in about a week

[243winxb]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45-acp.939/full https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45acp-947-just-touching-my-rifling.477/full


Set col using case head to shoulder measurement. The case rim diameter cant be larger the the opening on the bolt face.

Is the WC bullets nose getting deformed on chambering, when nose hits feed ramp? If yes, alloy is to soft. Add linotype.

If the round makes it into the chamber, but action is open a tiny bit. Shorten col and/or apply more taper crimp.

[guy_with_boolits]

Set col using case head to shoulder measurement. The case rim diameter cant be larger the the opening on the bolt face.

Is the WC bullets nose getting deformed on chambering, when nose hits feed ramp? If yes, alloy is to soft. Add linotype.

good info thanks

yes the nose radius is just gone..bunch of flat spots

I'll check the rim diameter. Maybe the rounds are so short they are getting bounced around and missing their chance to mate with the extractor properly

I am forced into a very narrow window of COAL. 1.18" is the max that keeps the case end flush with the barrel hood. any longer and it protrouds and stops rotating freely

[243winxb]

The 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth. The case head should be at the same place in barrel , using an empty sized brass or a loaded round. This is with the barrel out of tne gun.

[mehavey]

We know that.
But the empty case sits slightly below the hood at it stands now.

The OP might yet want to take advantage of the extra space to see if the added AOL allows the bullet to tip over/allign sooner
... and rim still be no higher than the barrel hood.

That said -- it the nose if deforming/flat-spotting upon hitting the chamber top, that effectively makes for a shorter bullet for "tip-over"
So 243Win's "harder is better" is a good Rx

[guy_with_boolits]

We know that.
But the empty case sits slightly below the hood at it stands now.

The OP might yet want to take advantage of the extra space to see if the added AOL allows the bullet to tip over/allign sooner
... and rim still be no higher than the barrel hood.

That said -- it the nose if deforming/flat-spotting upon hitting the chamber top, that effectively makes for a shorter bullet for "tip-over"
So 243Win's "harder is better" is a good Rx

And just to be clear I did this experiment....trying to eek out every last bit of COAL. I haven't yet fired the maximized COAL (its only .016" longer than the ones that jammed) to see how it goes

[mehavey]

a thousandth here, a thousandth there.... pretty soon it adds up to real distance.:kidding:



More seriously, it may be that the pure lead isn't able to handle banging up against the chamber top on entrance,
and it's deforming/flattening to the point that the geometry/friction surface changes on trying to straighten itself out)

[guy_with_boolits]

a thousandth here, a thousandth there.... pretty soon it adds up to real distance.:kidding:

I think I'm facing a quadruple whammy of jam-inducing factors:

-lead too soft
-range brass might not fit extractor nicely
-forced to use very short COAL because of gun chamber
-SWC profile

[pmer]

I've been thinking of getting a truncated cone nose profile for the 1911. How do they compare to RN and SWC for feeding?

[guy_with_boolits]

MP-452-200 mold will be here in a few days so I am making the executive decision to abandon SWC since it serves no purpose for me and switch basically all my 45ACP ammo to this new hollow point for all purposes

I'll probably end up selling the SWC mold.

I did also buy, as a backup, an old RN 2 cavity mold just in case

[45-70 Chevroner]

- Use full-strength Lee ALOX -- a dab on thumb/forefinger ("greasy fingers")
- "Grease-up" the bullets as you pick the up one at a time/place vertical/base down on a plate. Thin film. Bullet groove fill plays no part.
- (Renew the ALOX on your fingers every 4-5 bullets to keep things greasy)

Bake (yes bake) at 225 for 40-45 minutes/allow final cool/dry overnight. Thin-film/ALOX'd bullets will not be tacky at all at that point

Shoot them. :guntootsmiley:




postscript: Depending on the results when using the pure/thin-film/baked/cooled/dried ALOX method above, consider upping the charge/fast powder
( I know it sounds paradoxical, but trust me. Lead bullets like enough pressure to bump up a bit at the very start)

I have never heard of baking boolits after lubing them. I think that is a serious mistake. 225 degrees is hot enough to melt the lube off. I use a mixture of 30/70 mineral spirits and Lee liquid lube and swirl them around in a cool whip container pour them out on a plastic sheet let dry over night, then load and shoot. My plastic sheet is 1/16" thick and about one square foot in size. I don't worry about them laying on their side but I do spread them out so they are not laying on top of each other.

[mehavey]

I have never heard of baking boolits after lubing them. I think that is a serious mistake.
225 degrees is hot enough to melt the lube off. Don't argue w/ about 8 years of doing this with greasy-fingered Lee Liquid ALOX w/o any evidence of "melt-off"
If anything, it 'uniforms' the residual coatings perfectly.
:bigsmyl2:


As to effectiveness:
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6644641&postcount=5 for rifle use w/ Lyman #2 and Hvy 45-70
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6645327&postcount=8 for rifle use w/ Lyman #2 and Med-Hvy 30-40 Krag
See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?368459-223-cast-bullets-w-ar15&p=4472544&viewfull=1#post4472544 use w/ Lyman #2 and ModeratelyFast AR-15/223

[DougGuy]

I can make it jam on the bench just running the cycle...

pictured is the type of jam I was getting while trying to shoot..either from a slide release or an actual full cyclce

I mean the SWC doesnt have as nice of a curve to angle it up as an RN does. The super soft lead probably isnt helping either.

The pic shows how the cases get their dents..they get smashed onto the inner edge of the chamber bevel when the soft squarish SWC front end gets stuck on the chamber roof because the SWC has more of a squarish profile that doesnt smoothly rotate it, and even if it might the soft lead flattens out making things worse as far as transmitting forces which would turn the boolit


https://i.postimg.cc/0QVxDMrT/Untitled.jpg

You guys are KILLING yourselves with these NO THROAT barrels! SAAMI specs call for some freebore. J.M. Bowning designed the 1911 with freebore in the throat. Modern manufacturers couldn;t be bothered to ream freebore into the barrel as long as it plunks factory hardball, SEND IT OUT! SELL IT! NEXT!!!

We who use cast boolits in the 1911 across the board prefer a .452" boolit diameter. 95% of 45 ACP 1911 barrels made in the last 20 years will NOT plunk a handload with a .452" boolit loaded to the specified COA in tested, published load data! This is a true fact!

The 45 ACP will experience 3 point jams IF your COA is too short! It MAKES it jam! If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throated so you can load any COA you want to, and not have to shove the boolit down ito the case so far the web of the brass downsizes the base of the boolit!

Example:




https://i.postimg.cc/Y2nydP0x/1911-45-Sandy-Barrel-After200-G-G-ALOX-Bullseye-sm.jpg


A barrel properly throated will feed anything you can cycle through the magazine, and they shoot lights out!

276136

Here is a Kahr barrel, these pistols are notorious for not plunking even some factory self defense ammo, this one (and your 1911 barrel) will plunk all of the dummies shown, and cycles them like a Singer sewing machine. Problem solved!

276137 276138

[mehavey]

If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throatedLuckily... it feeds everything from 200gr H&G68 SWC through 230RN just fine... but I'll check-6 w/ SandyG as to opinion/options.

[DougGuy]

Luckily... it feeds everything from 200gr H&G68 SWC through 230RN just fine... but I'll check-6 w/ SandyG as to opinion/options.

Yes but you are seated well down in the case. You couldn't use published data without compensating for the shorter COA. I have a LOT of satisfied users on this forum who have had barrels throated and to date not one complaint or report of accuracy falling off.

[mehavey]

Must be my mojo.... :groner:

https://i.postimg.cc/J7xxrJnF/45-ACP-ACC-45-200-M-200-H-Lead.jpg

[guy_with_boolits]

Must be my mojo.... :groner:

https://i.postimg.cc/J7xxrJnF/45-ACP-ACC-45-200-M-200-H-Lead.jpg

so, datapoint: no way in heck could I get that pictured SWC with 1.26OAL to plunk. It would be almost 0.1" above the barrel shroud too. Am I doing it wrong?

EDIT: you know.....LOOKING at that SWC round, the 1/16" or so that protrudes above the case would seem to be about the same amount as my barrel throat

I would think it WOULD plunk at 1.26....something seems off here

an empty case ends up slightly below the barrel shroud...

so why wouldnt this work? maybe my SWC's are just too big and not fitting into the throat

[guy_with_boolits]

You guys are KILLING yourselves with these NO THROAT barrels! SAAMI specs call for some freebore. J.M. Bowning designed the 1911 with freebore in the throat. Modern manufacturers couldn;t be bothered to ream freebore into the barrel as long as it plunks factory hardball, SEND IT OUT! SELL IT! NEXT!!!

We who use cast boolits in the 1911 across the board prefer a .452" boolit diameter. 95% of 45 ACP 1911 barrels made in the last 20 years will NOT plunk a handload with a .452" boolit loaded to the specified COA in tested, published load data! This is a true fact!

The 45 ACP will experience 3 point jams IF your COA is too short! It MAKES it jam! If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throated so you can load any COA you want to, and not have to shove the boolit down ito the case so far the web of the brass downsizes the base of the boolit!

Example:



A barrel properly throated will feed anything you can cycle through the magazine, and they shoot lights out!


Here is a Kahr barrel, these pistols are notorious for not plunking even some factory self defense ammo, this one (and your 1911 barrel) will plunk all of the dummies shown, and cycles them like a Singer sewing machine. Problem solved!



I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

[P Flados]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

The sad thing is these "throatless wonders" are just bad manufacturing with no justification at all.

For a gun maker, putting a proper throat on the chamber of an autoloading pistol is easy in the big scheme of things.

Good throats do allow proper cartridge COAL and proper COAL can make all the difference with feeding.

[DougGuy]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

The Kahr I have wouldn't reliably shoot the Hornady Critical Defense round. I had a couple of them that went click, primer dented but no ignition, it was actually seating the round further into the chamber and shoving the JHP bullet into the rifling. I have throated a couple dozen of this same model, for the same reason. Most factory ammo would plunk, some of the truncated cone JHP designs would not.

The tiny bit of freebore you have in your barrel, is likely only .451" in diameter, maybe even not that big, where you need .452" or a little bigger to reliably plunk a SWC at a decent COA so that it feeds flawlessly.

One of our users here Char Gar sent me a barrel that he had been deep seating the 423452 which is the 255gr 45 Colt LSWC boolit, when he got it back he could run it all day at the range with that boolit with nary a hiccup. He says he had been doing it wrong for 53yrs.... You just can't go out and buy a 1911 made in the last 20 or so years that has a throat SUITABLE for shooting handloads with cast boolits. Most and I say most, will plunk a lead round nose boolit as long as it is .451" hardly any will plunk the boolits mehavey posted in his pic.

His barrel has no throat at all, so that tells me that the barrel itself has a generous groove diameter if he can plunk the SWC in the pic, and it is sized .452"

it's not mojo it's math simple as that. You can't stuff a .452" diameter object into a smaller diameter hole, that's not how it works.

You want your barrel, which is different from his obviously, to run like a raped ape with your handloads? Have it throated then have all the fun you are missing now.

Edit: I might add that I like to put a generous amount of freebore in the throat, so that the boolit when it leaves the case is supported in the freebore which is a snug fit, this holds the boolit squared with the centerline of the bore, and it holds it concentric to the leade ins of the rifling, I use the throat as a guide and I like to get the driving bands of the boolit into the throat by the time it leaves the case mouth, THEN let it engage the rifling. The freebore acts like an alignment die, centering the boolit and aligning it to the bore.

No barrel manufacturer does this. No gun maker does this. Throating a barrel like this is something I came up with after using the Taylor Throat reamer on some revolvers with thread choke and seeing how that guided the boolit into the rifling prompted me to adapt the front half of that throat profile and put that in the 1911 barrels I throat. It just works.

The only drawback that I have heard about, and I am not sure this is a drawback, was that there was a slight loss of velocity, maybe 25 to 35 FPS, and that is as it should be. There is less resistance in the throated barrel, so there is less pressure generated, and pressure is what creates velocity. You can overcome this by bumping up your charge weight ever so slightly.

Take for instance the 45 ACP Blackhawk revolver, those are very accurate, some guys with convertibles say the ACP cylinder outshoots the 45 Colt cylinder, and would you look at what's in front of the 45 ACP boolit as it sits in the cylinder? Over an INCH of (drumroll...........) FREEBORE!!!!!!!

I'm just shaking my head at why the manufacturers won't put any in an expensive autoloader, they want to claim match grade this and that, as long as you are using factory fodder you are good to go, but try to run the gun with handloaded .452" SWC seated to the PUBLISHED COA? Forget it. At least until it is throated.

[DougGuy]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

Here's the link to Char Gar's post of how his range session went after he sent the barrel this way.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?329223-Kudos-to-DougGuy

There is another very long thread here from a guy trying to get the 452423 to work in a 1911, several pages worth, he finally gave up and conceded it could not be done. Same booit Char Gar is using, and this is before I started offering barrel throating and cylinder throat honing to members here.

[cupajoe]

I first throated a pistol barrel shortly after member BD posted a thread in the handgun section showing before and after pics of a 1911 barrel. Its a sticky now. Doug has posted several pics as well. A properly throated pistol barrel is a wonderful thing and easy to do if you have the tools.

[guy_with_boolits]

some BIGGGG updates:

update #1

I took the recoil spring out and did some jam tests with my 1.16" COAL SWC's

Its clear the nose jams into the barrel feed bevel..the COAL and the SWC profile and the soft lead just act to cause it to stop its upward tilt and jam ...its highly repeatable

its not the exact jam I was getting on slide release but I think during actual recoil-spring release the forces are so high, it momentarily jams like this then it does a 3 point jam where it gets the crescent shaped dent on the case

update #2

okay I have measured the barrel groove diameter at the exit end and it appears to be between 0.451 and 0.452

the throat end seems similar

sharpie-ing my cast SWC's show rifling marks during the plunk test at 1.16 COAL, and they measure about the same as the groove diameter

so it would appear my cast bullets are probably too big to go into the throat

if only someone had mentioned slugging my barrel and sizing the bullets to fit! why didnt someone, ANYONE, say this???

haha jk

so I will be buying a lee 0.451" sizer or a similar sizer

sound like a plan?

this would let me increase the COAL probably .030" or more if the bullet can fit in the throat, and in theory this should give better angles during feeding, not to mention proper chambering (presumably this design likes bullets to be in the throat instead of outside it)

[DougGuy]

Ok I give up. I lay out all the knowledge and add photos to it and you want to size smaller. There is a reason people use .452" boolits ALMOST 100% because if .451" worked there never would have been these myriad threads about leading in a 1911, there never would have been a sticky about reaming barrel throats, and I would have never started a business doing this. Otoh, there would not have been HUNDREDS of happy shooters like Char-Gar but suit yourself. You are wasting your money and your time trying to get around the problem.

[mehavey]

Apparently already throated (per DG's strong recommendation)
Sized at normal .452" (and 276206same barrel as shown in previous post)

[onelight]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .
Google 45acp SWC and look at the images and it will give you an idea of what oal looks like on most reloads.

[DougGuy]

Apparently already throated (per DG's strong recommendation)
Sized at normal .452" (and 276206same barrel as shown in previous post)

I don't think that's throated, as it has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, there is zero freebore. If I had pin gages in that barrel, I am certain that it would be found to be a sufficient diameter to allow the SWC round as pictured, to plunk. A barrel with rifling all the way to the chamber mouth, and allowing a .452" which is seated proud of the case, to plunk, is definitely an anomaly.

[guy_with_boolits]

Ok I give up. I lay out all the knowledge and add photos to it and you want to size smaller. There is a reason people use .452" boolits ALMOST 100% because if .451" worked there never would have been these myriad threads about leading in a 1911, there never would have been a sticky about reaming barrel throats, and I would have never started a business doing this. Otoh, there would not have been HUNDREDS of happy shooters like Char-Gar but suit yourself. You are wasting your money and your time trying to get around the problem.

seems to me throating the barrel to .452 or sizing the bullet to .451 both have the same net result, allowing the bullet to chamber deeper and the COAL to be increased, and both cost money (throating being more) and only one doesnt modify my pistol

[guy_with_boolits]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .

if the groove diameter is smaller than the cast boolit then how can the cast boolit be expected to chamber into the throat?

I get the when fired the bullet will be deformed but there isnt enough force during chambering

[guy_with_boolits]

I'm just trying to figure out whats going on here

How is my 0.452 cast SWC supposed to chamber into the throat if its .451?

[guy_with_boolits]

Let me just say this: I dont want to modify my pistol. I already bought a hollow point mold so if I cant get SWC to work thats fine.

Are some people accomplishing this by crimping the bullet just enough at the case mouth so it fits the throat, but the rest of the boolit is still oversize?

[guy_with_boolits]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .
Google 45acp SWC and look at the images and it will give you an idea of what oal looks like on most reloads.

does that apply to PC'd cast?

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to commit heresy here [not the 1st time and probably not the last] and say that while everyone and their brother here are fixated with "fit is king".....I am not.

Case in point concerning your leading problem. I have literally fired a bajillion cast 45 bullets out of a bunch of 45 ACP handguns, mostly M1911s and M1917s, and I have never, ever slugged the barrel of a M1911.....factory, custom or military. Additionally I have never, ever had a leading problem when I used a proper lube because I learned a long time ago [in other cartridges] if a cast bullet of proper alloy is at least groove diameter any leading is 99% going to be caused by the lube not doing it's job. Consequently I have been using a .452 sizer from day one of loading cast bullets for use in M1911s and M1917 [both S&W & Colts even with their oversized throats] lubed with Javelina, Tamarac, BAC or other NRA 50/50 type lubes w/o any leading.

I have also shot a lot of .451 sized commercial cast bullets which did lead because of the hard wax lube used on them. Initially I removed the hard wax lube and lubed them with one of the mentioned lubes. Those bullets then shot excellently w/o any leading. I then found light coat of LLA over the hard cast bullets w/o de-lubing them also prevented most of the leading if not all.....result being it was the lube failing causing the leading, not the "fit".

If you just want to TL I suggest you get some LLA and lube your bullets as per the Lee instructions using a very light coat with each application. Let the bullets air dry thoroughly between coats and sizing/loading. I have helped numerous others who had similar leading problems to yours who also were using home made lubes. Once they used a lube of known performance the leading problem went away. Now, before I get a bunch of posts about home made lubes "working" let me say not everyone makes the lubes or applies them the same or correctly even with the same formula or instructions. Some home made lubes are gonna work, but some are not. Not saying you made a bad lube but the evidence of leading you posted is pretty supportive of that conclusion. Don't feel bad as many of us have made bad lubes also......the thing is to admit it, correct the problem and, in the end, be happy with non-leading bullets.......

I'm not sure if baking adversely affects the lube(?) but that is something to be tested later after correcting your leading problem.

[DougGuy]

seems to me throating the barrel to .452 or sizing the bullet to .451 both have the same net result, allowing the bullet to chamber deeper and the COAL to be increased, and both cost money (throating being more) and only one doesnt modify my pistol

They won't have the same net result. That's *why* we throat them, so you CAN use a .452" which since it is .001" bigger than groove diameter, forms a better seal in the bore than the same boolit sized .451" The .452" will generally always work better than the .451" at making this seal, and achieving the seal in the bore, with the right lube, will have you putting hundreds of rounds through that barrel without even cleaning it. Yes the longer COA will have it feeding much better than a shorter COA. This is why the 10mm is called the "magic bullet" because it is long in profile and feeds like butter.

One other thing that no one has mentioned yet is tuning your extractor. This can have a major impact on those 3pt jams. Take the slide off, slip a round up the breech face from the bottom, hook it under the extractor. Now.. How much effort does it take to slide it under the extractor hook? Too much required will greatly add to the probability of it jamming. It is a well known process by many smiths to "tune" the extractor so there is a reasonable amount of energy required to slide the round under the hook, the trick, and the sweet spot comes when it doesn't take a lot of effort to do this, but once under the hook, shake the slide back and forth. The round should remain in the extractor hook and not fall out.

Typically, you would take a small square file, fine tooth, and radius the bottom of the recessed part, where the rim first encounters the extractor, and you would also radius the back side of the hook itself, but only the bottom part. Since the round will be at an angle when it begins to slide up the breech face from the magazine, this radius makes it smoother going. You should also press the round against the breech face and the tip of the extractor should NOT contact the beveled part of the case ahead of the rim. You can file that part shorter as well, these are the THREE areas you want to address with the extractor.

Having the correct COA will greatly improve feeding, but if that extractor is too stiff, that will cause it to want to jam, and also the round *underneath* the round being chambered, is what pushes the top round upwards and under the hook, often the magazine spring if it is too weak will not push up hard enough, so once the extractor is tuned and the hook is radiused, it makes this function easier too.

You have to figure, NONE of these factory made 1911s are intended for anything BUT factory ammo. Once you get into the handloads, now you need to tune the gun to shoot them flawlessly. Go read the thread I linked from Char-Gar. He "gets" it. You don't. Not yet anyway. Good luck doing it the hard way, I throat them way cheaper than you can buy the tooling and it just works. LOTS of guys here can attest to that.

[mehavey]

I don't think that's throated, as it has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, there is zero freebore.Oh it's freebored and throated....

276219

But effective (25yds):

276220

:bigsmyl2:

[onelight]

Let me just say this: I dont want to modify my pistol. I already bought a hollow point mold so if I cant get SWC to work thats fine.

Are some people accomplishing this by crimping the bullet just enough at the case mouth so it fits the throat, but the rest of the boolit is still oversize?
Yes if it won't plunk it won't chamber . If it plunks but won't feed from the magazine you need a different magazine , a gunsmith or a different bullet . 45 auto is very forgiving in my experience , slow low pressure cartridge see post #113
But you have to be able to chamber it . And it has to engage the rifling when fired . The chamber is the part of the barrel from the hood to the shoulder where the case mouth stops the throat is where the the full size .452 part of the bullet that is in front of the case sets and the ogive of the bullet has to fit in the rifling without preventing the case from fully entering the chamber. The traditional way to do this with most 45 autos is the shoulder of a SWC about a finger nail above the case mouth if that won't feed and you don't want to have your barrel modified ( gun smith reshapes the barrel at the ramp)you need a different bullet. And if a cast bullet even a RN .452 it may have to be seated deeper than what the manual says to chamber. DougGuy can fix the chamber and perhaps the ramp if needed. Or you may be able to buy a drop in barrel that is already set up for SWC / cast bullets.

[guy_with_boolits]

Yes if it won't plunk it won't chamber . If it plunks but won't feed from the magazine you need a different magazine , a gunsmith or a different bullet . 45 auto is very forgiving in my experience , slow low pressure cartridge see post #113
But you have to be able to chamber it . And it has to engage the rifling when fired . The chamber is the part of the barrel from the hood to the shoulder where the case mouth stops the throat is where the the full size .452 part of the bullet that is in front of the case sets and the ogive of the bullet has to fit in the rifling without preventing the case from fully entering the chamber. The traditional way to do this with most 45 autos is the shoulder of a SWC about a finger nail above the case mouth if that won't feed and you don't want to have your barrel modified ( gun smith reshapes the barrel at the ramp)you need a different bullet. And if a cast bullet even a RN .452 it may have to be seated deeper than what the manual says to chamber. DougGuy can fix the chamber and perhaps the ramp if needed. Or you may be able to buy a drop in barrel that is already set up for SWC / cast bullets.

very good info thx

in the case you describe where the SWC is a fingernail above the case mouth, is the rifling expected to engage that fingernail when chambered? or is that fingernail basically supposed to be the same depth as the throat?

[onelight]

very good info thx

in the case you describe where the SWC is a fingernail above the case mouth, is the rifling expected to engage that fingernail when chambered? or is that fingernail basically supposed to be the same depth as the throat?
No the finger nail is short so it would be just starting into the throat but will not make it to the rifling ideally you could seat it to where the full diameter would be just short of the rifling but unless you have barrel work done I don't think you can make that work. And for most of us it will make no practical difference if we work up our powder charge from the bottom as we should . The fingernail is the length that I see more people have success with as have I . But it depends on the particular bullet and and barrel. If you don't modify your barrel it is going to require you to adapt your ammunition to it. I don't consider that to be a terrible thing unless you are a bullseye shooter or trying to get maximum velocity . But if the shorter OAL you get won't feed from the magazine you may have to find a different style bullet that will chamber and feed like a RN .
On a SWC the length of the full diameter bullet outside the case is what will prevent it from passing the plunk test. Try .451 as has been recommended but I think with your stock chamber you will still need the shoulder of the SWC close to the case mouth . But as I mentioned earlier I have had a few 1911s But do not have near the experience with them others here do . But I currently load for 5 different 45 autos and they all have tight chambers SIG ,HK, CZ , SA XDS and XDE it would be best if I sent them all to DougGuy to fix the chamber but I have several loads that work well in all of them and shoot well enough for my purpose and are as close to 100% reliable as you can get with my hand loads.
You gotta feed them what they like not what you like , if you don't want spend the money and time to customize them for cast.

[onelight]

Taz a member here has posted simple way to give you a starting point for seating depth for auto pistols .
After you size your bullets you can see the shiny mark left by the sizer , your case mouth when seating the bullet is going to land close to the end of that mark. On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.
The sizer mark gives you a spot for the case mouth to land on a round nose also but you will need to see if the ogive of the bullet is touching the rifling enough to prevent the plunk test from working if it does , that will require deeper seating or a DougGuy mod to your barrel. Seat as long as will plunk and fit in your mag . At this point you have to see if the cartridge will feed from the mag in your gun.
And if you deep seat start your powder charge low and work up I load 5 at a time cause I don't like clumsy single shots. When you get worked up to where it locks the slide you have your minimum for that combination in that gun. If you record all this info you won't have to do it again for that gun with that bullet and powder.

[mehavey]

On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't
want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.Is there some reason to not seat as long as reasonable within SAAMI Min/Max (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/45acp_SAAMI.jpg)
...as long as the barrel geometry/throating continues to "plunk" it?
See Post #107 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5099857&viewfull=1#post5099857) again)
.....

[onelight]

Nope I like as long as will plunk . If it still works in the magazine. My P220 mag will not take as long a round with some boolits as some of my other guns.

[guy_with_boolits]

Is there some reason to not seat as long as reasonable within SAAMI Min/Max (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/45acp_SAAMI.jpg)
...as long as the barrel geometry/throating continues to "plunk" it?
See Post #107 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5099857&viewfull=1#post5099857) again)
.....

Is throat depth/rifling distance from headspace shoulder, part of what a case gauge evaluates or is that outside its scope?

[guy_with_boolits]

Taz a member here has posted simple way to give you a starting point for seating depth for auto pistols .
After you size your bullets you can see the shiny mark left by the sizer , your case mouth when seating the bullet is going to land close to the end of that mark. On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.
The sizer mark gives you a spot for the case mouth to land on a round nose also but you will need to see if the ogive of the bullet is touching the rifling enough to prevent the plunk test from working if it does , that will require deeper seating or a DougGuy mod to your barrel. Seat as long as will plunk and fit in your mag . At this point you have to see if the cartridge will feed from the mag in your gun.
And if you deep seat start your powder charge low and work up I load 5 at a time cause I don't like clumsy single shots. When you get worked up to where it locks the slide you have your minimum for that combination in that gun. If you record all this info you won't have to do it again for that gun with that bullet and powder.

are the SWC tumble lube grooves are tapered towards the front? why does the sizer mark end before they do?

based on all of your advices, and my desire to not modify the barrel, it looks like my only options to continue using this SWC are:

-use a much harder lead
-experiment with a .451 sizer

.451 sizer enroute so we will definitely see how that goes
harder lead is not something I'm in the mood to do for this so it will have to wait until i make harder lead for some other reason
MP-452-200 mold will be here in a couple days..that may distract me permanently from SWC experiments

I've already done what I think are accurate COAL experiments and the SWC even when touching the rifling still results in a 1.18" or so COAL

To note: I have not actually proven its the COAL thats causing the jams. It seems to be. But the lead is clearly VERY soft. Even just operating the slide without the recoil spring leaves a flat dent in the bullet nose when it jams. Maybe thats the whole thing.

What should I do with all these PC'd and ALOX'd SWCs? Are they dangerous? Should I hide them along with my shame?

[mehavey]

Is throat depth/rifling distance from headspace shoulder, part of what a case gauge evaluates or is that outside its scope?The case gauge cannot give you feedback on the actual throat (and...)
I therefore always recommend using the actual barrel as best gauge.

(If you have multiple guns, it must pass all barrels to be interchangeable.)

[Conditor22]

To measure the OAL of that gun with that boolit
1) slide a rod down the barrel until it touches the bolt face and put a mark on the rod where it comes out of the barrel (I like to use a washer that will fit over the rod with a wrap of tape on it and mark the tape with a flat razor)
2) start a boolit in a case then slide it in the chamber until it stops. Holding the case/boolit in place Repeat step # 1)
3) measure the distance between the marks.

IF you have a tight throat, you may have to seat that boolit deep also.

[onelight]

are the SWC tumble lube grooves are tapered towards the front? why does the sizer mark end before they do?

based on all of your advices, and my desire to not modify the barrel, it looks like my only options to continue using this SWC are:

-use a much harder lead
-experiment with a .451 sizer

.451 sizer enroute so we will definitely see how that goes
harder lead is not something I'm in the mood to do for this so it will have to wait until i make harder lead for some other reason
MP-452-200 mold will be here in a couple days..that may distract me permanently from SWC experiments

I've already done what I think are accurate COAL experiments and the SWC even when touching the rifling still results in a 1.18" or so COAL

To note: I have not actually proven its the COAL thats causing the jams. It seems to be. But the lead is clearly VERY soft. Even just operating the slide without the recoil spring leaves a flat dent in the bullet nose when it jams. Maybe thats the whole thing.

What should I do with all these PC'd and ALOX'd SWCs? Are they dangerous? Should I hide them along with my shame?
Hopefully this won't be your last 45 so save them at the worst you can melt them down a recast. What you are experiencing was typical with 1911s in the past it used to be the exception that did not need to be throated and ramped to feed most SWC bullets. If you know any one that has a 1911 that will chamber your loads from the magazine try the magazine they use in your gun and see if they will feed.

[mehavey]

Yer gonna hate this . . .

But if you have some Lee Liquid ALOX sitting around, 'lightly' grease your thumb/forefinger with it.
Then 'lightly' wipe the nose of the (PC'd) SWC with it and let it dry overnight.
You might be amazed.

[guy_with_boolits]

Yer gonna hate this . . .

But if you have some Lee Liquid ALOX sitting around, 'lightly' grease your thumb/forefinger with it.
Then 'lightly' wipe the nose of the (PC'd) SWC with it and let it dry overnight.
You might be amazed.

I did half the boolits in ALOX instead of PC..aren't they defacto what you describe above? I haven't tried loading them at all yet

[mehavey]

My impression was you had problems with PC'd SWC.
The (thin-film dried) permits the PC coat to better "slip" when hitting the chamber top going in.

Both versions had trouble?

[guy_with_boolits]

My impression was you had problems with PC'd SWC.
The (thin-film dried) permits the PC coat to better "slip" when hitting the chamber top going in.

Both versions had trouble?

I haven't even tried the ALOX'd ones yet. Maybe they work ok! They are still a little tacky even after overnight dry and oven baking for 20 mins. But I'd rather shoot them then remelt.

[guy_with_boolits]

sooooo although this SWC exercise does have some valuable lessons, I am going to move on to my new hollow points (pic related)

I loaded up all the alox'd SWC's and I'll go shoot them, chrono them, and put the results here

I will also alox the noses of the PC'd SWCS per Mehavey and see how that goes

But I doubt I will cast any more SWC's, I'll probably sell the mold

Or am I being too hasty? Any reason to keep on making SWC's?

https://i.postimg.cc/BQdWJxrH/20210129-144227.jpg

[canyon-ghost]

If you fire lead after shooting jacketed, copper fouling can cause leading. I cleaned a revolver 4 times before it stopped. And I have 3 different 9mm pistols. A good brass brush can work wonders.

[Hanzy4200]

It surprises me people are still using alox with the ease of PC. I tumble lubed for years, went conventional lube sizing for about 6 months before trying PC. Now, 95% of my cast is PC. Easy, no wax or tacky goo, superb performance.

[Hossfly]

I inherited a Lyman 450, never even tried to use it, started pc and that’s all I’ve used. Ive never seen leading in anything, except on this forum.

[guy_with_boolits]

Thanks. I already tried without a sizer and the bullets would definitely not chamber.

So now what I am doing is:

half the boolits of same alloy alox'd using the greasy bad/fingers method from post #9 (warm alox, plenty of it, tumbled in a bag, dried overnight).
half the boolits pc'd @ 400 for 20mins the water dropped

both sized to 452 before alox/PC..not sure if I will re-size alox but I will resize PC

as expected some of the PC boolits have missing PC because of touching other boolits or the rack they were on..is that a big deal?



Okay today I chroned/tested the ALOX'd, plunk-tested, properly COAL'd for my pistol SWC's

LEE 452-200-SWC
unknown lead alloy, probably soft
1.17" +0/-.006" COAL
Plunk/rotate tested most of them
4.6gn bullseye
random range pickup brass
ALOX'd with alot of ALOX (see youtube videos)..not cut with anything..straight warm alox dribbled in a bag and the bag massaged
did 20 mins of oven drying then a few days sitting around

Shot 7 rounds, got 7 chronos
842
856
834
811
836
847
831

Alliant data says 807fps at 1.19" min OAL for 4.6 gn bullseye w/ 200gn LSWC..I think the higher fps may be due to the shorter COAL?

And..the original issue that started this thread...drum roll please!!!

Does not appear to be any leading! Some kind of black/dark residue in grooves (more like a smudge..not chunks of lead)..anyways whatever it was cleaned to a mirror finish with a few strokes of phosphor bronze brush and hoppes 9 on a single square plus a cleanup with a paper towel..nowhere near the mayhem of the original leading issue

No failure to feeds either! Ejected cases do have light scratches where they smash the barrel bevel but nowhere near as bad as the PC ones..

I have about 30 more of these and will shoot them all and measure accuracy..maybe this is usable after all

[mehavey]

PC is really nifty, convenient, and works really well 98% of all applications
Thin film("greased") straight Lee Liquid ALOX* remains magic when all else fails.




* Thin film/225°oven-dried/24-hour "rest" -- good forever

[guy_with_boolits]

PC is really nifty, convenient, and works really well 98% of all applications
Thin film("greased") straight Lee Liquid ALOX* remains magic when all else fails.




* Thin film/225°oven-dried/24-hour "rest" -- good forever

I wish LEE would just issue more descriptive information about ALOX. What it is, how it works, and how application impacts it.

But yes, this is very promising. I will keep ALOX around for sure and do some head-to-head with PC. I dont find the ALOX tackiness to be a big deal and it was not messy applying it using a bag. About similar mess wise to PC, maybe cleaner since it doesnt make clouds of microscopic dust.

[mehavey]

Are you oven drying standing up, or just dumped from the baggie?

If standing up, just wipe off most of the excess w/ your thumb/forefinger
as you pick them up to put on the cookie sheet. You need (almost) nothing.

Did I say thin film ?
:bigsmyl2:





ps: as they come out the oven, the warm/hot ALOX will still be (thin) liquid. But all
the solvent is mostly gone. Dries to final/hard coating very efficiently after 24-hr rest.

pps: I (Lee push-through) size before ALOXing, and so shoot them as-is after drying.

ppps: I PC almost everything now. But when I say that sometimes ALOX cures-what-can't-be-cured... believe me.

pppps: I haven't tried it for COVID yet. :veryconfu[smilie=w:
:kidding:

[onelight]

Congratulations on your field test !
It's great to hear they cycled and the velocity is in the range that is good .
You hung in there and put some boolits down range .:2_high5:

[canyon-ghost]

Congrats, now you have something!

[DonHowe]

I don't have much experience with tumble lube alone but in my experience the .45ACP is not that hard to please in that regard. If the barrel has "a few hundred rounds through it", may we presume those were jacketed bullet rounds? If so did you clean the copper jacket fouling from the barrel before firing the cast boolits? That could be a factor.
IF you have fired a few hundred jacketed rounds through that barrel, normally it should be slicked up by now. I suspect your barrel as I see nothing about your load to make me think the load is responsible for that much leading. After cleaning that mess out of the barrel,, if you do not have a lube-sizer try finger luring some bullets with a stick lube and load them just as before and fire them. You should have your answer. The fact that the barrel is new does not mean it is above suspicion.
FWIW, the last few years I shot the .45 my lube was 50/50 paraffin and Vaseline + a bit of STP. It performed as well in my application as did the the LBT Blue I used years ago.

[mehavey]

You missed the part "...Does not appear to be any leading ! ...." after using the Secret Sauce. :kidding:

[guy_with_boolits]

Are you oven drying standing up, or just dumped from the baggie?

If standing up, just wipe off most of the excess w/ your thumb/forefinger
as you pick them up to put on the cookie sheet. You need (almost) nothing.

Did I say thin film ?
:bigsmyl2:





ps: as they come out the oven, the warm/hot ALOX will still be (thin) liquid. But all
the solvent is mostly gone. Dries to final/hard coating very efficiently after 24-hr rest.

pps: I (Lee push-through) size before ALOXing, and so shoot them as-is after drying.

ppps: I PC almost everything now. But when I say that sometimes ALOX cures-what-can't-be-cured... believe me.

pppps: I haven't tried it for COVID yet. :veryconfu[smilie=w:
:kidding:

Dumped from baggie...although for this particular batch..I think I my process actually went:

dump from baggie (uncut ALOX'd SWC's) into a box with non-stick tinfoil

dry over night

then the next day I think I did 20 mins at 220F

and then they sat for a few days

some notes per your notes:

-I sized before ALOXing
-They are still a bit tacky but not gooey
-I would rank the ALOX messyness near or less than PC messyness...Im not sure what people are referring to as far as the gooey greasy nightmare or what have you. They are a bit tacky but they dont seem to be attracting dirt.

Do you really end up with zero tackiness?

If its not too much to ask, could you be excruciatingly precise about exactly how much ALOX you use? Seems this is always very quantitative, even on the LEE bottle, making it really hard to get right. (hence my difficulties)

[JWFilips]

Size .453" It will go away

[mehavey]

If its not too much to ask, could you be excruciatingly precise about exactly how much ALOX you use? See This Note (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121524-Apply-Liquid-Alox-by-dipping&p=5013771&viewfull=1#post5013771) as probably the simplest explanation.
"Greasy Fingers" only

[guy_with_boolits]

update: shot about 40 ALOX'd SWC's and only had one FTF...

the barrel seemed to come clean after light brushing and swiping with a pad, although there was one tiny spot that would not come clean with the brush, and I had to poke it with the aluminum rod to scrape it off ... things in general were MUCH MUCH cleaner than at the beginning of this thread (not really even comparable actually..basically just normal I think now)

I'm not sure what caused the FTF...

But anyways this is a HUGE improvement over the very light alox I was using before. Note that you'd have to read the thread to see all the things I changed but I think it was clear the amount of alox I was originally using was far too little. The other major thing I changed was making sure the boolits passed the plunk test.

I did NOT change the lead alloy/hardness, its still very soft

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It surprises me people are still using alox with the ease of PC. I tumble lubed for years, went conventional lube sizing for about 6 months before trying PC. Now, 95% of my cast is PC. Easy, no wax or tacky goo, superb performance.

I resisted powder coating too but found finally that it works very well. All my pistol boolits get powder coated. I still use 45/45/10 on my gas checked .30 cal rifle boolits.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I probably shot 30K of hard cast commercial boolits through my .45. 200 gr. swc seated for an oal of 1.25" Would get an occasional failure to feed until I sent the gun off to Wilson for a reliability tune. I had to taper crimp these fairly hard so they would plunk in my match grade barrel. All those years of match shooting I don't recall having discussions about leading problems. If this supply weirdness ever gets better I intend to get another 1911 and cast for it. But I will powder coat from the git go.

[guy_with_boolits]

I probably shot 30K of hard cast commercial boolits through my .45. 200 gr. swc seated for an oal of 1.25" Would get an occasional failure to feed until I sent the gun off to Wilson for a reliability tune. I had to taper crimp these fairly hard so they would plunk in my match grade barrel. All those years of match shooting I don't recall having discussions about leading problems. If this supply weirdness ever gets better I intend to get another 1911 and cast for it. But I will powder coat from the git go.

When one taper crimps hard is it possible the case is no longer headspacing on the mouth?

[onelight]

When one taper crimps hard is it possible the case is no longer headspacing on the mouth?
Yes you could . But I have not had it happen , for autos I only crimp enough for them all to work. If you can feel the case the case mouth at the crimp it should headspace fine.