paraffin or bees wax as lube on outside lubed heeled boolit (38 Long Colt) ?

[bedbugbilly]

I am getting ready to load up some 38 Long Colt – in both smokeless and black powder to use in a .36 caliber cap and ball 1858 Remington Navy (Pietta) with a Howell Conversion cylinder.

The boolits are 150 grain RN “heeled” with a .375 body diameter so they will be “outside lubed”. I’m using “range lead” and they will be kept under 800 FPS.

Once loaded, I plan on “dipping{ the boolit in melted lube. For the BP cartridges, I am going to be using my normal BP lube of pure beeswax/Crisco/olive oil to help keep fouling down.

MY question is in regards to my smokeless loads – which will be with BullsEye.

These cartridges are basically the same as a 22 Long Rifle – i.e. utilizing a heeled outside lubed boolit – just a larger version. Just offhand, when handling 22s, the boolit always reminded me of paraffin as the lube.

So my question is – will a dip in pure paraffin be an adequate lubricate for the 38 heeled boolit?

I also have pure beeswax as well – would that work? (without leaving residue, etc.)

I am in Arizona so would like a stiff enough lube that heat isn’t going to make it run when stored in a plastic 50 count storage box.

The boolit has a single lube groove and my thinking was that I would dip them in the melted lube, gently touch the nose of the boolit to a piece of paper towel to absorb any excess and then the boolit would have a light coating of the paraffin (or beeswax) when cooled. I will also mention that the boolits will be loaded “as cast” and will not be run through a sizer or a lubing machine (I don’t have a lubeasizer).

So – suggestions? Will paraffin work or would pure beeswax work as a lube with the boolit coated (like a 22 lr outside cartridge is)? I’m trying to recreate what the original 38 Long Colt cartridges with an outside lubed heeled boolit was like but I have not been able to find out what was originally used as a lube.

Not a “lube expert” so appreciate any suggestions. Thanks.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I think either wax, 100% straight will dry out and not stick well in the lube groove if stored for a while.
I would suggest a Beeswax-Vaseline blend. While the typical boolit lube is a 50-50 mix, if you want stiff for AZ, they I'd make it 60-40.

[Winger Ed.]

Going that slow, pretty much anything will work.

In the old days, I shot A BUNCH of under 900 fps .38s & .45s with the kid's old and broken crayons.
I melted them down and thinned 'em with a bump of motor oil.
I didn't make lube sticks either, I poured it into the RCBS sizer and let it cool.

Yeah, it did stink, but I never had a leading problem either.

Since then, the kids are gone, so now, all cast handgun ammo gets melted down candles
mixed with beeswax (I can afford now), and a bump of motor oil if its too hard to go thought the sizer.

[Oyeboten]

My own solution to this and every other Black Powder Hand gun Cartridge, or Cap & Ball Revolver, is to have a Bees Wax Lube Wafer between Powder and Projectile.

Works perfectly, and no fouling ever...I have shot many hundreds of rounds with no cleaning where the revolver looks as clean or cleaner than had I been shooting 'Unique', and no Cylinder binding ever, even with Cylinder gaps of .003.

I only use 3 F Swiss Powder for my Black Powder needs.

I just run torn strips of ordinary white Paper Towel, through Molten Bees Wax, let them cool on Aluminum Foil on a flat surface, then cut out discs to be just a little larger than the Cartridge Case ID, and cut them out over smooth end grain Pine using a gasket Hole Punch.

One disc between Power and Projectile.

Simple, easy, and works perfectly.

Hands stay clean, Gun stays clean, no hard fouling, no fouling at all really.

Clean-up is merely the usual warm Soapy Water and a Nylon Bore brush....dry till warm enough to evaporate a drop of water fairly fast, with a hand held Hair Drier and the Revolver propped up on a rumpled Towel.

[Castaway]

Gato Feo #1 was originally a heeled bullet lube that will also work well with smokeless. By weight; 2 parts paraffin, 2 parts mutton tallow and 1 part bees wax

[GregLaROCHE]

I always heard Bee’s wax has a higher burning temp than paraffin, that’s why I use it for boolit lube and grease cookies. I think pure of either will tend to be brittle. Better to add a little something to soften it up. Maybe not 50/50 if you are in a hot climate.

[John Boy]

Gato Feo #1 was originally a heeled bullet lube that will also work well with smokeless. By weight; 2 parts paraffin, 2 parts mutton tallow and 1 part bees wax

The only lube I have been using for close to 10 years for both black powder and smokeless velocities up to 1600 FPS

[gnostic]

Before the internet, 1968-1992 I didn't know paraffin bullet lube wasn't good, so I used it for years without a problem. I used candles, or canning wax, bearing grease, or STP with a bit of Moly. It works as well as the lube I've been buying....

[Wayne Smith]

I just tumble lube mine in thinned Lee Alox - 41 Colt loaded as yours with BE.

[barrabruce]

I finger lube my 310 cadet heeled bullet loads after seating using 50-50,or 60-40 bw / vas.
I tried dip lubing and a few other methods cold but no luck for me.

I drip lube a lot of tapered bullets by holding them with tweezers over a flame to heat and dipping them in my lube.
Then sit them on grease proof paper to harden.
You have to wipe their bums clean before seating and you get a little bit of lube to wipe off after seating.
Hence finger lubing after seating for the healed bullets .
Messy fingers once only.
No mess on dies etc.and no powder sticking to the bases.

[rfd]

gato feo (ugly cat) has always been my go-to lube for both muzzleloader patches and cartridge greasers. i double boiler mix a pound of gulf canning paraffin wax with a pound of DGW lamb tallow and a half pound of filtered pure beeswax. once mixed up and liquefied it gets poured into a waxed milk/juice carton to solidify, then cut into cakes. i've tried many commerical lubes, including the touted SPG, and find that gato feo is just as good if not better, and lots cheaper to boot.

https://i.imgur.com/edib75K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VxEpDRu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bknzyiZ.jpg

i dip lube bullets then either cookie cut with an expanded case or push through a lee sizing die.

https://i.imgur.com/tLooYEV.jpg

to lube muzzleloader patch strips, it gets rubbed into both sides of the cloth, then heat gun melted into the weave.

[indian joe]

question for all
I "inherited" some wax from a fellow shooter that quit the game - most of it beeswax that I separated out - the leftovers was mixed up beeswax and candle wax (I assumed) when I melted that lot down and poured it into a flat mold it separated out so I had this cake of beeswax with veins of white candlewax or canning wax running through it -

Just wondering what this stuff is and what do I need to do to get it to mix in properly with beeswax ?
or will the problem sort itself with a bit of oil added?
any thoughts
thanks...

[rfd]

add in some lamb tallow and make up some gato feo lube ...

by weight -
2 parts lamb tallow
2 parts paraffin wax (canning wax)
1 part beeswax

double boiler melted and mixed.

[Hickok]

In a smokeless powder load with a heel boolit, I would try Smoke's Clear Powder coat. Don't know if it will work, but I would try it if I had a heel-boolit cartridge.

[GregLaROCHE]

gato feo (ugly cat) has always been my go-to lube for both muzzleloader patches and cartridge greasers. i double boiler mix a pound of gulf canning paraffin wax with a pound of DGW lamb tallow and a half pound of filtered pure beeswax. once mixed up and liquefied it gets poured into a waxed milk/juice carton to solidify, then cut into cakes. i've tried many commerical lubes, including the touted SPG, and find that gato feo is just as good if not better, and lots cheaper to boot.

https://i.imgur.com/edib75K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VxEpDRu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bknzyiZ.jpg

i dip lube bullets then either cookie cut with an expanded case or push through a lee sizing die.

https://i.imgur.com/tLooYEV.jpg

to lube muzzleloader patch strips, it gets rubbed into both sides of the cloth, then heat gun melted into the weave.

What is the reason to use part paraffin wax and part bee’s wax? Why not use all one or the other?

[indian joe]

What is the reason to use part paraffin wax and part bee’s wax? Why not use all one or the other?

Greg
Beeswax is getting pricey in my neck of the woods and harder to find - have a big block of parrafin wax siting in my shed - also candle wax is easy to find .

Reason to mix? No expert here but seems like beeswax is much more sticky and would stay put in the lube grooves better ?

[indian joe]

add in some lamb tallow and make up some gato feo lube ...

by weight -
2 parts lamb tallow
2 parts paraffin wax (canning wax)
1 part beeswax

double boiler melted and mixed.

Do we want kidney fat or what cooks out of the tissue
I was taught they behave differently (used to make saddle dressing using mutton kidney fat + beeswax and a couple other things )

[GregLaROCHE]

You’re right, bee’s wax is a lot harder to find and expensive. Lucky for me, I don’t go through a great volume of lube these days, so I find enough to meet my needs. I do render lambs fat. The part around muscles, not kidneys. Maybe I’ll give kidney fat a try. I just mixed up a new batch with bee’s wax and Johnson’s paste wax with a little bit of lanoline too. I haven’t tried it yet, but like the texture of it.

[indian joe]

You’re right, bee’s wax is a lot harder to find and expensive. Lucky for me, I don’t go through a great volume of lube these days, so I find enough to meet my needs. I do render lambs fat. The part around muscles, not kidneys. Maybe I’ll give kidney fat a try. I just mixed up a new batch with bee’s wax and Johnson’s paste wax with a little bit of lanoline too. I haven’t tried it yet, but like the texture of it.


The story I had was kidney fat is higher temperature (could be just a story plenty of those about)
Have searched high and low for johnsons paste wax - none to be found -----

[rfd]

Do we want kidney fat or what cooks out of the tissue
I was taught they behave differently (used to make saddle dressing using mutton kidney fat + beeswax and a couple other things )

Gato Feo is an original 19th century bullet lube formula. I, and others, have tried different tallows and all did not work as well as mutton or lamb tallow. It is well worth brewing up, using, and fully enjoying.

Some notes on Gato Feo by its namesake creator ...

GATOFEO LUBE
************

by weight ...

1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part beeswax

Yes, canning paraffin is a petroleum product, but it's also pure paraffin. There are no scents, unrelated oils, glitter, etc. such as are found in decorative or scented candles. It's pure, and that' why I specify it.

When I first began using canning paraffin, I too wondered why it didn't create the tarry fouling when used with black powder, as other petroleum products do. Fact is, I posed this question in various message boards years ago. A chemist provided what seems a plausible answer: Canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products. Apparently, these hydrocarbons are the offender.

I'm no chemist, and I don't have access to a lab that could test for the presence of hydrocarbons, so I remain uncertain if what he said is true, opinion or S.W.A.G.
All I know is that canning paraffin -- the same translucent stuff that is melted and poured into the open mouths of preserve jars, does not create the hard, tarry fouling I typically find with other petroleum products (automotive grease, transmission fluid, rifle grease, lithium grease, etc.).

The natural greases (animal and vegetable in origin) also dissolve more easily in soapy water during cleaning. Petroleum grease resists dissolving and tends to float around in the water as tiny clumps, often sticking to the steel surfaces of guns and requiring additional cleaning.

Canning paraffin works. I can't explain it. The original 19th century factory recipe called for "paraffin" and that was the only description. There are different types of paraffin, but I chose canning paraffin for its purity and availability. Luckily, it worked just fine and I didn't have to search for a more esoteric paraffin.

Perhaps it lacks the hydrocarbons that are claimed to be the culprit. Perhaps not. But I do know that canning paraffin is the best paraffin I've found and it doesn't create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder.

I've made other variations of Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant with substituted ingredients, including old candles, and the resulting lubricant is not as good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The old recipe I found only listed:
Tallow
Paraffin
Beeswax

No specifics beyond these were given.

The recipe was originally used by factories for bullets that were outside lubricated, as found on heeled bullets. The only heeled bullets loaded by factories today are the .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle, and the .32 Short Colt (occasionally loaded by Winchester).

I used the above recipe and assembled it with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax because it's what I had on hand when I found the old recipe.

I have a Marlin Model 1892 rifle that uses heeled bullets, which I cast myself. After using the lubricant with .32 Long Colt reloads, I decided to try it with felt wads for my cap and ball revolvers, and patches for my CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber.

Doing so, I was impressed with the old recipe assembled with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax. I've also used it with black powder loads and lead bullets in my .44-40 and .45-70 rifles, as well as .45 Long Colt revolver.

I used very specific ingredients, but didn't change the ratio of 10/10/5 parts.

I first posted the recipe -- with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax -- about 1999 or 2000 on many message boards. Shortly after posting it, someone dubbed it "Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant" and the name stuck.

Did the old factory recipe specify liquid or solid paraffin? I don't know. I suspect it was solid, because the lubricant must be sticky and solid, to stick to the bare, smooth lead of an outside-lubricated bullet not protected by the case. Only a very small portion of the bullet is inside the case -- the heel -- the rest of it is exposed to grit and lubricant wear-off while carried in pockets and game bags.

Modern .22 rimfire lubricant that covers the bullet is much harder and tenacious than the old factory recipe I found.
I suspect it's entirely wax of some type, with no grease or beeswax.

From what I've observed -- tiny teats on the point of the lead .22 bullet -- it's applied by dipping the completed cartridge upside down in melted wax up to where the bullet meets the brass case. Dipping in melted lubricant was the old method and is evidently still used today.

I know of liquid paraffin used for lamp fuel, but don't believe I've ever seen it. Perhaps I simply haven't recognized it.

Interestingly, one muzzleloading outfitter's site claims:

WARNING: Paraffin and other petroleum products can cause "Cook offs". It is neither fun nor healthy to have your musket unexpectedly fire while you are loading.

This is the first warning of this type I've seen, and I've been using black powder for nearly 40 years. I don't understand how a "cook-off" can be generated by paraffin. Does he mean it creates longer-lasting embers?

The age-old definition of "cook-off" means that the gun metal becomes so hot that the powder is ignited by this heat. This is a common problem in machine guns, and perhaps semi-autos fired quickly with a great deal of ammo, but in a black powder rifle?

The owner of the site clearly has a great deal of experience in black powder shooting, but i have to doubt this assertion. I've yet to hear of anyone experiencing unexpected ignition by using petroleum products. I and others have learned that most petroleum products, when used with black powder, create a hard, tarry fouling. Of this there is little doubt.

Canning paraffin lacks this characteristic. A chemist wrote me long ago that canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons that petroleum greases and oils contain. I don't know about this; I'm not a chemist, petroleum engineer or geologist. However, I DO know that I don't experience the hard, tarry fouling when using canning paraffin.
Whatever it lacks or possesses, it's clearly different from other petroleum products.

[indian joe]

Gato Feo is an original 19th century bullet lube formula. I, and others, have tried different tallows and all did not work as well as mutton or lamb tallow. It is well worth brewing up, using, and fully enjoying.

Some notes on Gato Feo by its namesake creator ...

GATOFEO LUBE
************

by weight ...

1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part beeswax

Yes, canning paraffin is a petroleum product, but it's also pure paraffin. There are no scents, unrelated oils, glitter, etc. such as are found in decorative or scented candles. It's pure, and that' why I specify it.

When I first began using canning paraffin, I too wondered why it didn't create the tarry fouling when used with black powder, as other petroleum products do. Fact is, I posed this question in various message boards years ago. A chemist provided what seems a plausible answer: Canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products. Apparently, these hydrocarbons are the offender.

I'm no chemist, and I don't have access to a lab that could test for the presence of hydrocarbons, so I remain uncertain if what he said is true, opinion or S.W.A.G.
All I know is that canning paraffin -- the same translucent stuff that is melted and poured into the open mouths of preserve jars, does not create the hard, tarry fouling I typically find with other petroleum products (automotive grease, transmission fluid, rifle grease, lithium grease, etc.).

The natural greases (animal and vegetable in origin) also dissolve more easily in soapy water during cleaning. Petroleum grease resists dissolving and tends to float around in the water as tiny clumps, often sticking to the steel surfaces of guns and requiring additional cleaning.

Canning paraffin works. I can't explain it. The original 19th century factory recipe called for "paraffin" and that was the only description. There are different types of paraffin, but I chose canning paraffin for its purity and availability. Luckily, it worked just fine and I didn't have to search for a more esoteric paraffin.

Perhaps it lacks the hydrocarbons that are claimed to be the culprit. Perhaps not. But I do know that canning paraffin is the best paraffin I've found and it doesn't create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder.

I've made other variations of Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant with substituted ingredients, including old candles, and the resulting lubricant is not as good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The old recipe I found only listed:
Tallow
Paraffin
Beeswax

No specifics beyond these were given.

The recipe was originally used by factories for bullets that were outside lubricated, as found on heeled bullets. The only heeled bullets loaded by factories today are the .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle, and the .32 Short Colt (occasionally loaded by Winchester).

I used the above recipe and assembled it with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax because it's what I had on hand when I found the old recipe.

I have a Marlin Model 1892 rifle that uses heeled bullets, which I cast myself. After using the lubricant with .32 Long Colt reloads, I decided to try it with felt wads for my cap and ball revolvers, and patches for my CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber.

Doing so, I was impressed with the old recipe assembled with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax. I've also used it with black powder loads and lead bullets in my .44-40 and .45-70 rifles, as well as .45 Long Colt revolver.

I used very specific ingredients, but didn't change the ratio of 10/10/5 parts.

I first posted the recipe -- with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax -- about 1999 or 2000 on many message boards. Shortly after posting it, someone dubbed it "Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant" and the name stuck.

Did the old factory recipe specify liquid or solid paraffin? I don't know. I suspect it was solid, because the lubricant must be sticky and solid, to stick to the bare, smooth lead of an outside-lubricated bullet not protected by the case. Only a very small portion of the bullet is inside the case -- the heel -- the rest of it is exposed to grit and lubricant wear-off while carried in pockets and game bags.

Modern .22 rimfire lubricant that covers the bullet is much harder and tenacious than the old factory recipe I found.
I suspect it's entirely wax of some type, with no grease or beeswax.

From what I've observed -- tiny teats on the point of the lead .22 bullet -- it's applied by dipping the completed cartridge upside down in melted wax up to where the bullet meets the brass case. Dipping in melted lubricant was the old method and is evidently still used today.

I know of liquid paraffin used for lamp fuel, but don't believe I've ever seen it. Perhaps I simply haven't recognized it.

Interestingly, one muzzleloading outfitter's site claims:

WARNING: Paraffin and other petroleum products can cause "Cook offs". It is neither fun nor healthy to have your musket unexpectedly fire while you are loading.

This is the first warning of this type I've seen, and I've been using black powder for nearly 40 years. I don't understand how a "cook-off" can be generated by paraffin. Does he mean it creates longer-lasting embers?

The age-old definition of "cook-off" means that the gun metal becomes so hot that the powder is ignited by this heat. This is a common problem in machine guns, and perhaps semi-autos fired quickly with a great deal of ammo, but in a black powder rifle?

The owner of the site clearly has a great deal of experience in black powder shooting, but i have to doubt this assertion. I've yet to hear of anyone experiencing unexpected ignition by using petroleum products. I and others have learned that most petroleum products, when used with black powder, create a hard, tarry fouling. Of this there is little doubt.

Canning paraffin lacks this characteristic. A chemist wrote me long ago that canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons that petroleum greases and oils contain. I don't know about this; I'm not a chemist, petroleum engineer or geologist. However, I DO know that I don't experience the hard, tarry fouling when using canning paraffin.
Whatever it lacks or possesses, it's clearly different from other petroleum products.

Good info - thanks for taking the time to post it

Canning wax --yep -- know that stuff -- spent many hours as a kid helping my mom seal jars of jam and some other preserves with it - all hands on deck in those days when the produce was in - the large block i have is definitely Parrafin wax

So candle wax is out! saved us some trouble on that

the "cook off" I have some different ideas on that - only requires 10 or 11 to 1 compression to ignite some petroleums - leave the cap on the nipple as a seal (or a blocked powder channel) ram a 38 slug thats a neat fit to bore - shove it down quick - boom!!!! ---dont need a burning ember just some petroleum oil left in the bore - sure its a long shot but two guys have near blown their hand off with 38 slug guns, both very experienced shooters, everyone at a loss to explain how it happened - this is one possibility

[Big Ben]

I use a blackpowder type beeswax lube on my externally lubed 310 cadet loads. A little messy, but does the trick. These are not screamin fast loads.

[DonHowe]

I prefer non petroleum ingredients in lube used with black powder. Emmert's lube is hard to beT; beeswax, crisco, crisco oil. I substitute tallow for crisco and add lanolin.