Anybody know what the original load data was in .357 Magnum?

[roverboy]

I was just reading about Douglas Wesson and his hunting trips with .357 Magnum. He killed elk, antelope, moose, and grizzly with his 8.75" .357 back in the day. The load was 158 gr. cast and was supposed to give 1500 fps or more out of a gun like his and over 800 ft. lbs. Anybody know what powder charge and powder was used? I read that it was developed with 2400 though. I've worked up to 15.5 gr. and 158 gr. cast. It kicks but, didn't give any extraction problems or flattened primers. Thanks

[Hickok]

The original load data was far too hot by today's standards. It quickly beat up revolvers. Also, velocities listed in bygone days was highly optimistic, in other words....they lied.

[Wally]

In my Ruger 6.5" Barrel Blackhawk...158 SWC-GC / 14.0 grains 2400---1,509 FPS Average velocity....a M-27 with an 8" barrel... 1,429 FPS. No extraction problems. I seldom shoot such loads; I just tested them out to see what the velocity would be.

[Outpost75]

Velocity figures back in those days were based upon solid barrels and not revolvers.

Also, chronographs then were very primitive and the numbers were highly optiomistic.

Handload data then was seldom pressure tested outside of the powder manufacturers.

Relying upon subjective pressure signs is both unreliable and dangerous.

[robertbank]

16 Gr 4227 avg 1629fps out of my Rossi 20" barrel Lver Action. The same load ran 1150fps out of my Ruger GP-100 4.2". Both loads using the Lyman 358477 bullet using water quenched WW alloy.

This load is the maximum load recommended in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition I experienced no leading in either firearm.

I do not shoot this load often.

Take Care
Bob

[derek45]

IIRC,....Keith's book SIXGUNS said the original was 158gr with 15.3grs of 2400

One of my load data books shows 15.8gr was the max, . . . that gave me 1364fps from a 5" 686, (Missouri hardcast & coated commercial bullet)

A more sane 14.7gr gave me 1275fps

https://i.imgur.com/sxpoT1D.jpg

[Bazoo]

The older cartridges of the world says that 16 grains 2400 and a 158grain bullet duplicates original factory loading. I've never loaded 16 grains, but have loaded some at 15 grains with a 358156. The blackhawk I had at the time recoiled like starting 44 magnum loads.

[El Bibliotecario]

When I first began loading .357 rounds I loaded some Lyman 358156 linotype bullets with 15.0 grains 2400. At the time this was the late Charles 'Skeeter' Skelton's maximum recommended load. Following the "dangerous practice of relying upon subjective pressure signs" I had no problems. I didn't need that much power, so went to Skelton's pet load of 13.5 grains 2400 seating the same bullet high in a .38 Special case, no doubt another dangerous practice. I used that load for years.

I recall that the big problem with early factory .357 ammunition was bullets which were so soft that they rapidly leaded the bore.

[Larry Gibson]

Having pressure tested both Hercules and Alliant 2400 under 150 - 162 gr cast bullets I've found 14.5 gr 2400 (doesn't matter which flavor as they are the same excepting lot to lot variation) under a 162 gr 358156 (fully dressed) and seat to and crimped in the forward crimp groove runs very close to the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi. The original loads were indeed heavier because at the time there was only the large N frame S&W revolver and the Colt Python revolvers made for the cartridge. Those level of loads were fine for those two revolvers as they were for the Colt and Ruger SAs chambered in 357 magnum. The problem arose with the introduction of the M19 K frame S&W revolver in 357 magnum. It was the darling of law enforcement for many years but it was quickly learned that a diet of those original loads would soon rattle the M19 apart. Thus the factories "dumbed down" 357 Magnum ammunition to the levels we have today. I have pressure tested quite a few various 357 magnum factory loads produced from the mid '60s through the late 2010 time frame. The tested psi's run from 23,000 upwards of 34,000 psi with most in the 28 - 32,000 psi range.

[jonp]

Blue Dot I think but I would not be surprised at more than max Unique loads although 2400 is also likely. I echo the other posts in that the velocity and pressure was more of a "I think this is what it is and at least the gun still works" rule of thumb. I'd not do that myself and I've run some pretty stout loads through my Blackhawks. If you think you need to run that high from a 357 then move up to a 41, 44 or 45LC.

[jonp]

Having pressure tested both Hercules and Alliant 2400 under 150 - 162 gr cast bullets I've found 14.5 gr 2400 (doesn't matter which flavor as they are the same excepting lot to lot variation) under a 162 gr 358156 (fully dressed) and seat to and crimped in the forward crimp groove runs very close to the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi. The original loads were indeed heavier because at the time there was only the large N frame S&W revolver and the Colt Python revolvers made for the cartridge. Those level of loads were fine for those two revolvers as they were for the Colt and Ruger SAs chambered in 357 magnum. The problem arose with the introduction of the M19 K frame S&W revolver in 357 magnum. It was the darling of law enforcement for many years but it was quickly learned that a diet of those original loads would soon rattle the M19 apart. Thus the factories "dumbed down" 357 Magnum ammunition to the levels we have today. I have pressure tested quite a few various 357 magnum factory loads produced from the mid '60s through the late 2010 time frame. The tested psi's run from 23,000 upwards of 34,000 psi with most in the 28 - 32,000 psi range.

What velocity were you getting out of those 14.5gr 2400 loads, Larry

[Kosh75287]

<smiling & giggling at EL BIBLIOTECARIO's "dangerous practices" post> Ud esta' con Amigos, mi Hermano.

[Norske]

My old copy of "Cooper on Handguns" referred to a no-longer-made VV powder. The original powder charges actually wore out N-frame Smith revolvers.

[Walks]

I tried the recommended load out of the Lyman CBH #1 when I 1st started my own reloading setup. Got a used M19-2 from a retired LAPD Officer. Had one box of once-fired brass, a #358156 2cav and a new can of 2400.

BOY HOWDY !!!!
I was ready for some real good loads. No light stuff like my Dad loaded for his .357Mag Revolvers, No 14.5grs of 2400 for me. That old Manual said XX.Xgrs was Max. I cast those bullets out of a Lino/COWW - 50/50 alloy.
M19 had full size target grips. And I needed them to keep a hold of the Monster I had unleased.

Then next .357Mag loads were with 14.5grs, just like Dad. And a whole lot of the "Skeeter Loads" with 13.5grs with the #358156 seated and crimped in the lower crimp groove in the .38Spl cases, until I could afford enough .357Mag Brass.

I DON'T RECOMMEND ANY LOADS SUCH AS I HAVE DISCUSSED ABOVE. THESE ARE DANGEROUS !!! DO NOT USE !!!!!

I only load to the published loads in the most recent Lyman Manual. And shoot them in heavy framed revolvers only.

[Larry Gibson]

What velocity were you getting out of those 14.5gr 2400 loads, Larry

Right at 1400 fps out of my 6" barreled Ruger Security Six using Alliant 2400, Winchester 357 magnum cases (brass not nickeled) with WSP primers. Again, that load hovers right around the SAAMI MAP of 36,000 psi as measured in my Contender test barrel via Oehler m43 PBL. I prefer to use 14.0 gr as my "standard" magnum load with the same components which runs 1350 fps at 33 - 34,000 psi +/-.

"And a whole lot of the "Skeeter Loads" with 13.5grs with the #358156 seated and crimped in the lower crimp groove in the .38Spl cases, until I could afford enough .357Mag Brass."

Shot a lot of those also but a word of caution; that load produces more PSI than a lot of factory 357 loads..... It runs 31 32,000 psi +/-........

[9.3X62AL]

I have run LOTS of #358156s ahead of 13.5 grains of 2400/CCI #500 in 4" 686, 6.5" pre-27, and 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk. From the 4" barrel they get about 1225 FPS, just like the 158 grain JHPs in the W-W Super-X loads my shop carried for years. In the 7.5" barrel these run about 100 FPS faster, IIRC. My K-frames are 38 Specials and 32/20s. At least 1500 rounds each have run through the three revolvers listed over the last 30 years. I never perceived of these loads as being especially hot--brass life is lengthy and extraction is easy (cases fall free more often than not).

And now for the lawyer-speak......IF YOU EVEN DREAM OF USING THIS DATA TO LOAD YOUR OWN AMMUNITION, YOU BETTER WAKE UP AND APOLOGIZE. The info is shared for entertainment value only, so don't try this at home. I have no idea what the ammo companies loaded the 357 Magnum with 85 years ago. I feel certain that whatever the data was, it was illegal, immoral, and high in both carbohydrates and saturated fats--just like anything else that tastes good. You have been fairly warned.

[robertbank]

Al I hope you don't expect ME to accept responsibility for MY actions surely. That would be so not in vogue. :>)

Glad to see you about. Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Ours was rather quiet. We spared a Turkey but I am afraid a pig made a sizeable donation.

Take Care

Bob
ps picked up a 10MM GP-100. Feeling the warmth.

[roverboy]

Thanks everybody. I was just curious about it. I knew the original loads were a little "HOT". My 6" Security Six handled the 158 gr. cast 15.5 gr. 2400 load just fine but, like I said kicked hard. I'm not gonna do anything like that much. I also loaded a few 180 gr. cast with 13.5 and 14.0 gr. 2400. They didn't give any problems either but, I really needed the rubber Pachmyr grips. [smilie=w:

[Larry Gibson]

The Ruger security Six revolver is basically a DA Black Hawk and is certainly heck for stout. Back when I first got mine I worked up to a max load of Blue Dot under 125 gr Jacketed HPs that was listed in a very popular load manual (hard copy not internet). I had no sign of pressure as cases easily extracted. Out of the 6" barrel they clocked a sizzling 1690 fps fps 15' from the muzzle. I shot probably 500 of those Winchester 125 gr JHPs over that Blue Dot load through the Ruger w/o even any hitch and they were death and destruction on rabbits and rock chucks and a couple coyote. Mind you, factory Winchester 125 JHPs, known to be a "man stopper", ran 1473 fps out of the Ruger and pushed 28,200 psi. That Blue Dot load also ran right at 2000 fps out of a 10" Contender with excellent accuracy......a "smokin" load! I thought I had the "holy grail" of 357 magnum loads.......

Then I got the M43 Oehler and pressure tested them......That Blue Dot load was pushing 42,200 psi. Perhaps that was "ok" as an original 357 magnum load but I'm certainly glad I didn't shoot any in my S&W M19! I would back it off to 36,000 psi were i to load 125 JHPs over Blue Dot again........

I finished shooting the loads I had left in the Contender and and pretty much stick to shooting the 358156 over the 14.0 gr 2400 load as my "magnum" 357 load. BTW, I never got the "pressure spikes" with Blue Dot in the 357 magnum under the 125 gr JHP as was reported.

[megasupermagnum]

It seems everything has already been covered. About the N frame, I've never heard of one coming apart from the first loads. They were higher pressure than today for sure, but the pressures were not all that insane. I'm sure somewhere Larry has that info posted. As for the N frame wearing out, I've never heard that. The same gun later went on to become the 41 and 44 magnum, so I really doubt the 357 magnum recoil put any undue stress on the gun. The N frame was purpose built just for the 357 magnum with those loads!

[cp1969]

Back in the '70s, a friend bought a Python. A partial box of Winchester lead-bullet ammo came with it. Those were the hottest .357 loads I've ever been around. I say 'been around' because I don't remember if I shot any of them or not but I do remember the bore was horribly fouled after only a few shots. Strips of lead several inches long came out.

Many years later, I bought my first .357, a 586 S&W. It's favorite load was a 125 gr or 140 gr JHP over a healthy load of Unique. I won't list how much Unique because I can't remember which weight JHP I used. I started keeping records far too late in the game. I wanted to use the 358421 bullet in that gun but the 150 gr RCBS SWC shot better. Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but I always blamed that on Lyman's tinkering with Elmer's original design.

What I also found out over time is that there's nothing that a 1400 fps load will do that a 1200-1250 fps load won't, except shoot flatter at ranges that I can't hit anything anyway.

[Kosh75287]

Alliant CURRENTLY lists 14.8/2400 as their max charge with a 158 gr. bullet, though a jacketed one of hollow-point design, seated to 1.575". It yields 1265 f/s from a 10"(!!!)barrel, probably un-vented. I wonder the following things (without really expecting any concrete nor confident answers):
1.) Would the use of a (higher-lubricity) hard-cast LSWC with an identical load yield a higher velocity +/- lower chamber pressure, without serious change in accuracy?
2.) Would seating either 158 gr. projectile to the SAAMI Max 1.590" (cylinder length allowing) lower chamber pressures sufficiently to warrant exceeding the 14.8 gr. upper-limit charge weight by up to 0.5 grains?
3.) If we're "maxed out" in our use of Alliant 2400, would abandonning tradition for the use of other propellants, such as 300-MP, H4227, H110, or VVN105 or N110 enable us to get closer to the original factory specs, without shaking apart our 6-shot N-Frame S&Ws, .357 RedHawks & Blackhawks (6-shot ONLY), T/Cs & F.A. Single actions?
MY answers, in the absence of testing, are "Probably", "Maybe", and "It might be worth trying". respectively.
The cold realities of MY situation are that MY .357 Magnum has a 4" barrel, and I'VE NEVER been able to get 2400 to burn completely in ANY handgun caliber, in ANY barrel shorter than 7.5". I don't know if it's worth blowing yet more unburned powder through the tubes in pursuit of the original (if memory serves) 158 gr. @ 1450 f/s from a 6.5" barrel, nor 158 gr. @ 1550 f/s from the 8 & 3/8" barrels. I guess that's up to the individual reloader.
Early on, I, too, tried the 13.5/2400/158 gr. SWC load in .38 Special cases and it clocked in the (VERY) low 1200s in my Police Service Six. I tried the 15.0/2400/158 LSWC (max recommended, at the time) and got just under 1300 f/s from a 4" barrel. I ended up using 8.0/Unique/158 LSWC, or 9.4/Herco/158 LSWC, and obtained velocities clustered very closely around 1280 f/s. Since 1982 (when I bought the revolver), I've run a fairly steady diet (over 60%) of the latter 2 loads through my PS6, despite both loads later being revised downward. My revolver shoots as well now as it did in 1982. No looseness, no end-shake, no nothing. That's according to various gunsmiths, not me.
YMMV

[megasupermagnum]

Alliant CURRENTLY lists 14.8/2400 as their max charge with a 158 gr. bullet, though a jacketed one of hollow-point design, seated to 1.575". It yields 1265 f/s from a 10"(!!!)barrel, probably un-vented. I wonder the following things (without really expecting any concrete nor confident answers):
1.) Would the use of a (higher-lubricity) hard-cast LSWC with an identical load yield a higher velocity +/- lower chamber pressure, without serious change in accuracy?
2.) Would seating either 158 gr. projectile to the SAAMI Max 1.590" (cylinder length allowing) lower chamber pressures sufficiently to warrant exceeding the 14.8 gr. upper-limit charge weight by up to 0.5 grains?
3.) If we're "maxed out" in our use of Alliant 2400, would abandonning tradition for the use of other propellants, such as 300-MP, H4227, H110, or VVN105 or N110 enable us to get closer to the original factory specs, without shaking apart our 6-shot N-Frame S&Ws, .357 RedHawks & Blackhawks (6-shot ONLY), T/Cs & F.A. Single actions?
MY answers, in the absence of testing, are "Probably", "Maybe", and "It might be worth trying". respectively.
The cold realities of MY situation are that MY .357 Magnum has a 4" barrel, and I'VE NEVER been able to get 2400 to burn completely in ANY handgun caliber, in ANY barrel shorter than 7.5". I don't know if it's worth blowing yet more unburned powder through the tubes in pursuit of the original (if memory serves) 158 gr. @ 1450 f/s from a 6.5" barrel, nor 158 gr. @ 1550 f/s from the 8 & 3/8" barrels. I guess that's up to the individual reloader.
Early on, I, too, tried the 13.5/2400/158 gr. SWC load in .38 Special cases and it clocked in the (VERY) low 1200s in my Police Service Six. I tried the 15.0/2400/158 LSWC (max recommended, at the time) and got just under 1300 f/s from a 4" barrel. I ended up using 8.0/Unique/158 LSWC, or 9.4/Herco/158 LSWC, and obtained velocities clustered very closely around 1280 f/s. Since 1982 (when I bought the revolver), I've run a fairly steady diet (over 60%) of the latter 2 loads through my PS6, despite both loads later being revised downward. My revolver shoots as well now as it did in 1982. No looseness, no end-shake, no nothing. That's according to various gunsmiths, not me.
YMMV

#1, it sure seems like there is a significant boost to cast bullets. Where a 158 grain jacketed hollow point or flat point is topped out around 1300 fps with modern data, with a 158 grain cast bullet, 1400 fps is very possible with normal length revolvers.

#2, .015" amounts to just about nothing. You won't see any gains.

#3, yes, H110, 300-MP, and N110 can send bullets faster than 2400 in most cases. I've never tried N105, and you will not see any boost with 4227. All of the revolvers you list are very durable, and will last a long time on any 357 magnum loads. You can also include the GP100 and 8 shot Redhawks in that list. I'd say you could include the SP101 as well, but nobodies wrist has ever survived longer than the gun.

In regards to durability, the 357 magnum is not that hard on guns unless it is shoehorned into something that was never designed for it. The J frame and K frame being the big examples. I have no hard evidence, but I believe the lightning fast 125 grain bullets to be far worse for a revolver than even old school 158 grain loads.

[johniv]

I have used 14.6 gr. of 2400 with the H&G #51, at about 160gr. Cronies at an even 1200 fps out of a 3" Ruger Speed Six. These days it is 14 gr as my go to top end load. FWIW

[Conditor22]

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AElJK0B10qTCJGA&cid=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9&id=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21243&parId=BCEBAFA0D477B7A9%21238&o=OneUp


number 8 of 29

[dimaprok]

Larry Gibson Have you pressure tested 125gr JHP with 20-22gr of H110/W296? Some books show load data up to 22gr, I plugged the numbers in to QuickLoad and in that range its all above max pressure. Also even at 20gr it appears like its going to be compressed. I shot these in my GP 100 but afraid that in the long run it might damage the gun. I chrono this bullet traveling at 1500fps and more from 4.2" barrel. You mentioned getting even more velocity from blue dot? Was it with 6.5" barrel? I got a can of blue dot.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Paul105]

158gr Horn XTP, 15.0gr A2400, New Starline Cases, CCI std small pistol primers, crimped in crimp groove

1,398 fps -- 5 1/2" Freedom Arms M97 -- 5 shots at 5 long paces and 65 deg F (5,000 ft) Competition Electronics

1,316 fps -- 2 3/4" S&W M66-8 -- 6 shots at the muzzle, 60 deg F (5,000 ft) Labradar.

FWIW,

Paul

[roverboy]

The craziest factory load in my opinion has got to be the Buffalo Bore 180 gr. cast load. I think it does right around 1400.

[Paul105]

roverboy

here are a couple of Labradar chrono results for the buffalo bore 180gr

Labradar Muzzle Velocity (familiarization run)
60 Deg F
S&W M66-8 2.75" .357 Mag

180gr Buff Bore …………………………………………………………………………….. 1,312 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds


Also ran two Buff Bore 180s thru 16" Rossi M92 carbine ……………. 1,894 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds

FWIW,

Paul

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson Have you pressure tested 125gr JHP with 20-22gr of H110/W296? Some books show load data up to 22gr, I plugged the numbers in to QuickLoad and in that range its all above max pressure. Also even at 20gr it appears like its going to be compressed. I shot these in my GP 100 but afraid that in the long run it might damage the gun. I chrono this bullet traveling at 1500fps and more from 4.2" barrel. You mentioned getting even more velocity from blue dot? Was it with 6.5" barrel? I got a can of blue dot.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

No I have not.....yet....

I have tested 18 gr of 2400 under the Winchester 125 JHP in Winchester brass cases with 550 primers. That ran just over 1500 fps out of my 6" Ruger SS and gave 33,200 psi in the 7.94" Contender test barrel and 1771 fps.

[7br]

The craziest factory load in my opinion has got to be the Buffalo Bore 180 gr. cast load. I think it does right around 1400.I am shooting the NOE 182 wfn gc with a near max charge of alliant 300mp and getting a little over 1400 out of a 10in Dan Wesson

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[loveruger]

Interesting post trying to make some loads for 180 missouri coated. Still looking gonna try h110 next.

[Jtarm]

The older cartridges of the world says that 16 grains 2400 and a 158grain bullet duplicates original factory loading. I've never loaded 16 grains, but have loaded some at 15 grains with a 358156. The blackhawk I had at the time recoiled like starting 44 magnum loads.

Jeff Cooper once wrote about loading 16.5 grains of 2400 behind a 158 SWC.

[9.3X62AL]

I have run 125 grain JHPs (Remington and Nosler) ahead of 17.5 grains of 2400 in my 4" M-686. Those clock @ 1425 FPS just like the Federal #357B loads my shop now authorizes. They hit 1500 FPS from the 7.5" BisHawk. They aren't as accurate as the 158 grain JSP or the #358156, but they are hell for velocity.

[Alferd Packer]

Old thread but I'll post anyway.
The ammo people almost always test factory ammo from a test barrel that is closed with no cylinder gap.
The arms manufacturers test that ammo for rifles in 26 inch barrel length and then sell you 22 inch barrelled rifles.
Everything has been that way a long time.The pistol rounds are many times shot in a universal receiver same as a closed rifle barrel only shorter barreled.

[robertbank]

As someone smarter than i in physics has noted and demonstrated here on this forum. Velocities using identical loads from a 4" barreled pistol will be lower than from a 4" barreled revolver due to the additional distance between the nose of the bullet and when the bullet reaches the rifling. The distance of flight is without the affect of friction. In a pistol the bullet enters the rifling instantly or almost so. The cylinder gap in a revolver has less affect on velocity than the distance in free flight of the bullet.

His observation was not mine but it does make sense and the author did provide calculations to emphasize his observation.

Aside from aggressive marketing it would appear reported velocities would be attainable in a pistol of equal barrel length to that used by the manufacturer but less if used in a revolver of equal barrel length. I have not bought commercial ammuntion for any of my pistols in sometime. I have a friend who might give me a round or two of 10MM and we could compare rounds from his Glock and my GP-100.

Take Care

Bob

[Burnt Fingers]

As someone smarter than i in physics has noted and demonstrated here on this forum. Velocities using identical loads from a 4" pistol will be lower than from a 4" revolver due to the additional distance between the nose of the bullet and when the bullet reaches the rifling. The distance of flight is without the affect of friction. In a pistol the bullet enters the rifling instantly or almost so. The cylinder gap in a revolver has less affect on velocity than the distance in free flight of the bullet.

His observation was not mine but it does make sense and the author did provide calculations to emphasize his observation.

Aside from aggressive marketing it would appear reported velocities would be attainable in a pistol of equal barrel length to that used by the manufacturer but less if used in a revolver of equal barrel length. I have not bought commercial ammuntion for any of my pistols in sometime. I have a friend who might give me a round or two of 10MM and we could compare rounds from his Glock and my GP-100.

Take Care

Bob


There's one more thing.

A 4" revolver has a 4" barrel PLUS the cylinder chamber.

A 4" pistol has 4" total length. If your OAL is 1.50" you really only have a 2.5" barrel.

[robertbank]

Went back to post and added "barreled" for those who might not understood the initial offering.

Take Care

Bob

[ddixie884]

IIRC,....Keith's book SIXGUNS said the original was 158gr with 15.3grs of 2400

One of my load data books shows 15.8gr was the max, . . . that gave me 1364fps from a 5" 686, (Missouri hardcast & coated commercial bullet)

A more sane 14.7gr gave me 1275fps

https://i.imgur.com/sxpoT1D.jpg

That is what I was thinking.......

[Speedo66]

I notice plenty of hot loads with 125g. Lots of internet talk about not using very many of those loads in K frames due to the possibility of cracking the weak flat spot on the forcing cone.

Haven't seen it mentioned here, so just thought I'd throw that out as a caution.

[loveruger]

Working on a 200 gr magma round nose. Have a scoped 6" GP 100. Very good load with 12.4 296 and same with h110. Both powders seem the same. Will crono when weather gets better.

[ddixie884]

Yes as stated, a 7.7'' vented test barrel would equal a 6'' barrel revolver with a 1.7'' cylinder......