Awful accuracy out of 45-70 handloads. Good accuracy out to store bought.

[jiminmo]

Hi All,
I am looking for some advice on a 45-70 load I am working on. I have a Henry 45-70 All Weather that I recently purchased. It will shoot store bought cartridges just fine, but it hates my particular load.

I am casting a 457-340-F Lee boolit from straight wheel weight lead. It is then tumble lube with LLA. They mic’ to .459-.462 and weigh 348-351gr with the above alloy. These boolits are not sized. My bore slugs at .457 in the grooves. This is a plain base boolit. Seated to a very low OAL of 2.460, Anything larger results in rifling engraving on the ogive and its obviously hard to close the action.

I am experimenting with solely IMR 3031 over Winchester LR primers in Starline cases. I attempted to work up a load using a similar weight jacketed bullet out of a lyman 49 manual. I started at 47 grs of 3031 and worked up 1 grain at time to 51 grains.

Could not even get it on the paper some rounds. Went back to the range the next day with some store-bought rounds and got the result in the attached picture. 3 Winchester factory loads in the middle, and that hole on the far right was my 51 gr 3031 hand load. Shot another round that didn’t even hit the target.

I am stumped. Should I be sizing these boolits? I haven’t because I was reading that a lot of guys shoot these as cast.
Maybe switch molds to a gas check design? (I have great luck with the lee soup can in the 30-30).
Is that OAL totally messed up? Don’t really know how to fix it without switching mold designs.
270045
Thanks for any advice!

[Tripplebeards]

Buy a lee sizer so they are all the same size. Yes, imo, it’s hurting your groups. Consistently is key. Make sure to slug your barrel so you know what diameter sizer to order. Bigger vs small diameter boolits are causing different pressures which is giving you different velocities and sporadic grouping imo. I also separate my boolits in 1 grain increments for load testing and hunting.

[Deadeye Bly]

Try starting at about 36 grains of 3031 and working up to about 44 grains. Sizing to .458" won't hurt either.

[mehavey]

Sizing isn't your problem. Rather, you're over-driving the bullet/alloy.
Drop back to 3031/42 grains and tell us what happens.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Get a .459 sizer. Spray your boolits with Hornady One Shot case lube, run them through the sizer and then tumble lube them. The Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook shows the most accurate load with a 350 gr. boolit to be 43 gr. of Rx 7 at 1780 fps. That is the starting load too so it should be safe.

Or try what mehavey suggested first.

[Jeff Michel]

Slow it down or go to a bullet with a gas check. Just my opinion.

[Tripplebeards]

The other thing I noticed when I was getting fliers with my first try at cast was I had some uneven boolit bases. I cut them to late and had lead “nipples” protruding and poorly filled out bases on some. Instead of tossing them back into my pot I PC’d, sized, and GC’d them. I would get good grouping with a couple shots and then a flier like your group....and that was with them all sized at .452” and with in one grain of each other. Once I cherry picked the good lee 300 grain boolits I made I was shooting MOA at 100 yards. I also was using 100% COWW at the time since it was my first go around. I tried WQ and AC COWW. The groups were almost identical with my proven load. So check your boolit bases as well. I installed gas checks over mine. It was like putting a bandaid over a broken leg. If it were me I’d buy a sizer, weigh and separate your boolits in one grain increments, double check all your boolit bases, and try another powder or two. Just like the other posters have mentioned you could be pushing your boolit to fast as well. Don’t feel bad, the first time I hit the range with cast I was shooting huge groups like yours as well. It took some reading and help from the members here to figure out what I was doing wrong.

[Maven]

jim...., As indicated above, drop the charge way down, perhaps to 28gr. IMR 3031 and test that CB as you originally did. If no success, size to .458" with the same load to see if things get better. I'd go to .459" as a last resort, all else being equal. Btw, I have that mould and find it is a tack driver @.459" in my Marlin .45-70 with the load I mentioned (.458" works too, but .459" is better). Good luck and tell us how things work out for you!

[Larry Gibson]

You are pushing that bullet way to hard/fast. Also, as mentioned, drop back to 34 gr +/- to start and use a dacron filler with the 3031. The filler is best for that lower weight bullet with 3031 as the bullet doesn't have the mass given the expansion ratio of the 45-70 to burn efficiently w/o it. If you don't want to use the filler then a switch to a faster burning, easily ignitable powder is best.

[mehavey]

Low 40s/3031 should be OK as far as case fill w/ that shorter OAL.
Either that, or switch to something like 5744 as suggested above

[Maven]

Either that, or switch to something like 5744 as suggested above....mehavey

Exactly!

[rfd]

I load the 347-340F with 1:30 alloy and it drops at 348 grains, cookie cutter lubed with gato feo, sized to .459" with a Lee push-thru sizing die. All base lube is removed before seating. As to loading, depends on what the gun/bbl likes best and typically slow is where it's at, as in 1150-1250fps. For the most part, a soft 1:30 alloy should do at least okay with most bbls. I load with either 12-13 grains of Trail Boss for the grandkids to plink at 100 to 200 yards for mouse fart recoil and typical 3-4moa accuracy, or with 25-26 grains of AA5744 for trap door speeds and 2-3moa accuracy. Though I have experimented with Varget, I never use 3031 or 4198 - AA5744 is better, IMHO. Guns are Sharps and roller, and soon a CVA Scout.

[white eagle]

your bore slugs at 457 and you shoot boolits .002-.005 over bore size
that is where I would start
start at the size that shoots well out of your rifle
most store bought bullets mike out at 458
if you are getting lead in your barrel your lube may not be working for the velocity you are trying to achieve
you may want to try powder coating with the shake n bake method for a better lube
I would definitely size boolits try .458 and .459 to start and work from there
it can be done my go to load in 45/70 is 47.0 gr imr 3031 with rl 7 a close second

[USSR]

Sizing isn't your problem. Rather, you're over-driving the bullet/alloy.


Yep. Much too fast for your plain base bullet of that alloy.

Don

[jiminmo]

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all the advice!

Based on what everyone is saying I am going to get a sizer die, and drop my load grains down. I also have a pound of trailboss and might try working with that as well.

Thanks,
Jim

[Conditor22]

IF you have Unique 10-13 grains will give you tight groups
start around 14 grains of trail boss
2400 - start at 24 grains

[TjB101]

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all the advice!

Based on what everyone is saying I am going to get a sizer die, and drop my load grains down. I also have a pound of trailboss and might try working with that as well.

Thanks,
Jim

Trailboss, Unique, 2400, Reddot and even Bullseye are so soft in the 45-70. I’ll load 12gr of unique, Reddot, and bullseye, 20gr of 2400, 15gr of Trailboss for kid friendly loads with the 350 gr Lee RNFP.

For 2400 I’ve gone up to 22gr and they start to get a little stout. I also use a .5gr Dacron buffer

Just bought a pound of 3031 and will start at 32 to 34gr and work up from there.

[brstevns]

Check your muzzle end after firing some of those rounds and look to see if you have a star-like pattern, if so you are driving them way too fast and it is showing barrel leading. What bullet lub are you using?

[Lead pot]

OK you know your bore diameter now find out what the twist of that bore is then match the bullet length for that twist. with a proper ogive radius to hold stability. There are a lot of Lever rifles used for the long range gong matches out to 1024 yards shooting bullets less than 1250 fps.
And the big thing, you have to get that .458 Win Mag velocity mentality out of your mind shooting a .45-70.
The Henry rifle will shoot very well.

Spend a little time researching the .45-70 chambered in modern lever rifles using smokeless powder in large volume cases.
This link is a good place to start.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/articles/45-70-government-loads-45-70-applications/

[44Blam]

Funny. I've got a Marlin 1895 and I've never shot a factory round in it.

I initially had a skinner sight on it and was able to hit 2' targets at about 400 yards. I got a Montana tang sight and have been able to hit 2' targets at 6 and 700 yards... I need to go back out to the long range and attempt the 900 yard target.

I've got two main molds that I use both are NOE molds and are Ranch Dog clones. One is 350 grain and the other is 396 grain. Both molds make gas check boolits and I generally run them between 1800-1900 fps. I also cast them as cup point boolits.

I was using Varget because the recoil impulse was more of a push than a jolt, but I recently started using H335 (because I got a good deal on an 8lb keg of it).

270128

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use a load of 36.5gn of 3031 in my 1886 x 45/70 with a 420gn Hensley & Gibbs boolit. This group at 100yds with a receiver sight.

As others have said your loads are way too hot!

https://i.imgur.com/43o42Ci.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Uqbe3sJ.jpg

[Goofy]

Kinda sorta of the thought that the -70 part of the cartridge nomenclature says a lot. If one follows that path with soft plain base bullets a new horizon may await.

https://i.imgur.com/U5nJc1e.jpg

The top row is 30:1 @ 530 grains
https://i.imgur.com/AnC36ob.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8kja5Q1.jpg

As others have suggested, there is a corollary between alloy, size and pressure.

[Yooper003]

I shoot the Lee 340 RN in my cva scout V2 one of the first guns I cast for. The mold is a .457 & that is why I got into powder coating too add some size to these boolits. After pc I run them through a .459 die. Probably the most accurate plinking load with this boolit for me is 11-11 1/2 gr, red dot he best fast load in this gun with this boolit is 50 gr. Of Varget. Yes factory Hornady 325 leverevolution are very accurate but prefer to shoot the cast boolits for both plinking & hunting.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Need to reduce load. Plain base won't do much more than 1200 fps without accuracy loss. NORMALLY a gas check is needed to push bullets faster. Uniform sizing may help and weight sorting can make a difference. Bullet hardness can make a difference but you are just going too fast for that plain base bullet. In the 45-70 you could use an upside down gas check, but that is a different exercise that includes annealing and sizing gas checks. A lubricated card wad can help but again a different exercise, same with powder-coating. Light loads 10 grains of Red Dot or some others pistol powders, I use HP38, will give better accuracy and are 'more fun' with that bullet.

[Petander]

To the OP,how do you expand the brass?


The other thing I noticed when I was getting fliers with my first try at cast was I had some uneven boolit bases.

I also started my casting career with 45-70 and had horrible results. At first my Lee bullet was undersize, then I bravely lapped it bigger but my "expanding" was only flaring the brass with my Hornady die... so I ruined my bullet bases by shrinking them to undersize when seating them. Bad.

You need a proper expander. I don't know what you have but have you pulled a seated bullet and measured the base?

FWIW ,here is my fastest load , a plain base Hi Tek coated 325 RCBS @ 2000 fps. Using a .458 NOE expander with a .459 bullet. Alloy ~ 15 bhn. Marlin SBL.

I like it fast for shooting moving moose target practise, aim at the beard @ 100 meters with this for a lung shot.

I have NOE expanders for every cast thing I load now. Even more in the mail right now...



https://i.postimg.cc/j5LpDxWp/IMG-20190530-190929-589.jpg

[Chemoman]

your rifle is a 1/20 twist. you should be shooting a 400 to 450 grain bullet. otherwise it can gyro out and get you fliers. the lighter bullet is too small for that twist in weight. dont make them so hard, size them to .458. this may sound strange but put a 60 thousands wad behind the bullet either hard fiber or poly type. prevents leading and become a perfect base for the bullet also. dont make them go faster than 1800 ft. per second out of the muzzle. doing all of the above will get you shooting very good groups. of course use a good lube. make sure your barrel has no leading in it when you test again. again your bullet is too small and gyros out.

[725]

My .45-70 load with a 415 gr. 460420 boolit is 40 grains of 3031. More than enough!