Two guns are on sale ....

[Oldfeller]

Two 30-06 guns are sitting in a local gun dealer's rack right now not 3 miles from my house. I am sitting on enough Christmas money to go buy one right now, but I can't make up my mind.

One is a Howa Legacy sporter in 30-06. It is finely polished, looks real purty and has a "fair" feeling trigger on it.

The other is a sandblasted finished target crowned heavy bull barrel Savage jobbie with an accutrigger on it.

Both guns have the same sale price tag on them, $349.99

Which one is the better deal? I plan to shoot some long distance lead bullets and some of them other type bullets, too.

I need some help here, I am really divided as to which way to go. The Howa looks like it belongs in a glass fronted gun cabinet and the Savage looks like it belongs in the trunk of a police car.

[StarMetal]

If one had cut rifling, or rifling other then button rifling, I'd get that one, so that means the Savage is out so far. Just think, that special limited edition Deluxe CZ 550 in 30-06 I got, with rings, deluxe wood and polished blue job, I got for the same price. It's a beauty and it shoots both jacketed and cast as good as it lookes, oh yeah, has a set trigger too.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Joe, how long ago was that? You wouldn't prick tease me with some 1980's pricing, now would you?

[StarMetal]

Kelly,

Exactly about 4-5 yrs ago, right when we moved to TN. It was Bill Hicks & Co special.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Go down there with all your 30 caliber mold samples (or the ones you actually will be useing) and try them in the muzzle. You should know what to do after that, I hope. Pick the Savage if at all possible. Lots more fun to have a 1/2" shooter than not.

[Oldfeller]

Joe, nice deal on a very nice gun.

So, you say get the Howa because it has deeper rifling? Can't / don't know how deep the rifling is actually, but it is only 6 lands on the Howa vs 8 lands on the Savage. Howa does appear to be wider if not necessarily taller rifling, though.

I've got both land top riders and bore rider bullets that will fit either gun, so I am sure I can get something to fit up to either one. So, is rifling depth the total deciding factor to cast bullet accuracy?

[StarMetal]

Bob has a great ideal about taking sample slugs down with you. My CZ has four grooves and lands and they are wide. It's slightly fat for a 30 cal, but wow the thing shoots for an 06...actually more accurate with cast then jacketed. Cast you up some slugs and take them with you.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I've got both land top riders and bore rider bullets that will fit either gun, so I am sure I can get something to fit up to either one. So, is rifling depth the total deciding factor to cast bullet accuracy?

Lands = Bore. I assume you meant groove rider? You want nose engraving in lands, not riding them. If the nose actually goes in the muzzle, then it is TOO SMALL. Get the Savage.

[Oldfeller]

Bob, FAT 30 will firmly land top ride either one of them (I checked). LEE 180 will kinda mostly get supported on the Savage, but it ain't altogether round on the nose either. It gets better support off the Howa, but I won't be using a single cavity round nosed bullet for very much when I have a slightly heavier six banger with a meplat available.

What makes you say the shot-peened Savage will be a 1/2 minute of angle rifle as opposed to that nicely polished looking Howa?

[Bullshop]

Split the money and do a lay-away on each gun. That should give you three months to pay up.
Work with each one and keep your preference. Thats the only way, otherwise if your not totaly happy with the one you pick you will forever wonder what the other would have been like.
When its time to sell one tape some of its best groups on the stock and offer it with some of that ammo and the load data to produce it. A bit of creative advertising to turn used into custom and you might see profit.
I do this in my shop and people seem to like it. When your buying a new or used gun this shows it to be a proven performer and not a pig in a poke.
The one possible problem with this is you may like both equaly well and not want to sell eather. To this I say, if thats your worst problem you are blessed.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

What makes you say the shot-peened Savage will be a 1/2 minute of angle rifle as opposed to that nicely polished looking Howa?

Take your pick, your the one buying it. Satisfy yourself. Get both and test them. Sell the one that doesn't shoot as well. Or forget both and get a real target rifle set up for accuracy. Three friends have those new accu trigger, "shot peened" (exactly when was that mentioned in your description) Savages in 308 and 22-250, jacketed groups have ran under 1/2" in all of them.

[versifier]

I'd kinda be thinking a few years down the road. My brother likes to buy and sell older European shotguns, but he NEVER shoots them. Why? Try to get parts if there's a problem. You know you can get anything you'll ever need for the Savage. But if you go for the other one and have a problem in ten or fifteen years, Howa you going to get the parts to fix it? :groner:

[Oldfeller]

No mention that Howa barrels are harder than nails and are Japanese built and look all purty and are sanded real smooth and finished real nice?

I'm all disappointed. Where did all the Howa fans go when I needed them?

With so much good advice I ran back to the gun store and bought it. So now you can line up to tell me I screwed up, because Howa gun barrels have taller rifling, are harder steel and will shoot longer and are much prettier to look at.

As it sits, I have tuned the accutrigger to less than one pound ... safely.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0012.jpg

[Frank46]

Oldfeller, the savage you show looks exactly like the 110fp tactical I have in 308. I bought it over ten years ago before I mover to loosiana. I get 3/4" groups with 7.62 nato LC brass,
40gr 4895 and 168 sieras (darn spelling) I know its heresy to use the j word. Haven't tries cast in it yet. Did have to glass bed the receiver ring as the whole action moved each shot.
The rynite stocks are very flexible. I have to literally force the action back into the stock and the plastic just slips and slides until the action is back in place. No accu-trigger on that rifle
but tuned it down to about 2.5 lbs. Good enough for me. But drove me crazy trying to get a good load worked up cause I did not realize the whole action was moving in the stock. Frank

[Bass Ackward]

Where did all the Howa fans go when I needed them?

With so much good advice I ran back to the gun store and bought it. So now you can line up to tell me I screwed up, because Howa gun barrels have taller rifling, are harder steel and will shoot longer and are much prettier to look at.

As it sits, I have tuned the accutrigger to less than one pound ... safely.




Kelly,

Well .... you were told. I wanted to see if after all the abuse I took if anything from the discussions actually sunk in. From some of the other comments made I see it was a futile attempt. The fact that you remembered the points of the discussion and it made you think was good enough for me.

My heavy barreled 30-06 that we discussed was just .... like .... that one. Still, when you said what your plans were, the Savage fit your needs better. (Better off a bench) That is the choice I would have made for you if I had the power to do so. (Make you feel better? I didn't think so.)

I was thinking towards the future! That is because you have a platform that you can rebarrel yourself .... when you get the urge to step up to a real cast bullet bore diameter. :grin: (Assuming you replace that $6. stock.)

But no matter the choice, it's a new adventure. For goodness sakes, put descent glass on it.

[Oldfeller]

Yep, you done warned me, both before and after the purchase. My $6 stock now looks like a $80 stock because I sanded all the parting line crap off of it and relieved the milled channel (yep, they take a normal barrel stock and channel cut it in a milling machine to get the stock to fit that fat barrel diameter) so that nothing touches even when you side load the stock in a standing sling tension position. So now it looks good and feels rubbery smooth.

Barrel is seated with epoxy (bet it stuck to the steel again, but I haven't taken it apart to see yet). Accutrigger wouldn't go below 2 pounds, so I annealed the trigger motion counter force spring a bit and now it will go much lower. There are two springs in the trigger, one controls the motion and the other controls the safety lever in the center of the trigger.

I adjusted mine so that the safety lever spring is relatively "strong" compared to the motion spring, it is almost as strong as the motion spring resistance. Pull it back and as soon as it goes flush in the trigger shoe very very little force is required to actually fire the gun as the force of the two springs acting together is "counter-combined" to fire the gun with your finger just making up the difference.

This is a totally safe very hair trigger for target use. It is safe because the firing spring cannot go forward until that center safey lever is pulled flush to the body of the trigger and HELD there while the rest of the motion is accomplished.

[Bass Ackward]

Barrel is seated with epoxy (bet it stuck to the steel again, but I haven't taken it apart to see yet).

Well, I don't have a single accutrigger so I can't relate. Mine are all Timney's. And although I get pretty compulsive for accuracy, 2 1/2" is as low as I ever go .... on anything. I have had signle set Kanjars when they were made real well and I just could not ever "feel" my trigger consistenly if temperatures dropped. So I just got used to a heavier trigger and no more premature efforts.

Did you full length bed the stock? Mine was so flimsy that if you only partially bedded it, POI would change along with group size depending on where it was set in the bag. I replaced it with wood because I didn't want to spend the money for good plastic, and everything improved considerably in the consistency of the gun. Now everything of mine gets plywood. Just so you know.

[Frank46]

Oldfeller, if you are thinking of replacing that ^(*&%# plastic stock check w/gun parts first.
I did try and get one from them a few years ago but they had only culls. Maybe thats changed. or contact savage directly, the heavy target stock will fir the older long action rifles,I'm not sure about the one you have or will be getting. The 110fp tactical I have is pre accu trigger and is a 308 on the long action. Happy New Year, Frank