Sorting foe rim thickness.

[Pressman]

How to do it without spending money.

I tried the 223 case method but none of the 22 caliber cases I have, new, fired or resized will accept a .225" loaded rimfire case, the case necks are just not that large. IE: 222,223,22-250,22 Savage.

What are you using to open a case neck?

Ken

[kr54]

How about using a fired case?

[Conditor22]

Just brain storming -- chuck a 15/64 0.2344 drill bit in your press backwards and sand/polish it down to the diamiter you want, clamp a shell holder in a drill press vise, center then enlarge.

[Forrest r]

How about using a fired case?

^^^^^

[Pressman]

Forrest, that's part of the problem, I don't have a fired case from a chamber that allows the neck to expand that much. Fired cases still need the neck expanded to .225.5 to allow an unfired 22 cartridge to enter.

[redhawk0]

Insert the nose of a 22LR into a center fire case and just pound it in...hahahaha....Seriously, I'd do like Conditor22 suggested and make an expander plug to the diameter you want. Then expand the size the neck of a 22 Center Fire case for that diameter.

BTW....a #1 drill bit is 0.228"

redhawk

[OS OK]

I used a .243W case that I slowly taper crimped smaller to slip fit the .22lr's OD without scraping the wax from the projectiles...
you can see the slight taper crimp in this photo.

https://i.imgur.com/eNB6r8Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K3btHmD.jpg

I started with just the one set screw but had to add both to keep the cartridge mouth centered on the upper end of the calipers.

https://i.imgur.com/OGsm5lc.jpg

I drilled a hole in a short block of wood that the cartridge would 'press fit' into and used my table saw & fence to do the milling. A carbide cabinet blade fit the width of the calipers just about perfectly.

https://i.imgur.com/VBLRnZX.jpg

[Texas by God]

Maybe simple minded of me- but why not use a thin dremel cutoff wheel and cut slits in a fired .22 centerfire case neck? Roll up some fine grit Emory cloth to smooth it out inside. Wouldn't take much to get it to slip over the bullet without removing the wax. A .22 Savsge HI Power might work best.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Forrest r]

Don't know, I simply went to the range and picked up a bunch of 223 cases and found 1 that a loaded 22lr would fit into and been using it ever since.

While sorting 22lrs's by rim thickness is interesting it doesn't affect accuracy as much as people think. The business end of the 22lr, namely the shoulder of the bullet has a lot more affect.
https://i.imgur.com/b6rT2kX.jpg

A good example of this is the SK standard+ pictured above was an excellent lot as was the Eley match EPS.

The sk + had a +/- .002" rim and +/- .020" oal to the shoulder. What made it an excellent lot that I bought a case of was that it had a sd of +/- 20fps while testing it in several different firearms. I use it to test rimfire firearms for mechanical issues, namely inconsistent ignition which leads to inaccuracy.

The Eley had a +/- .0015" rim and a +/- .005" oal to the shoulder. A 40x ate these match eps's like potato chips & took out many flies on the 50yd line.

At the end of the day the Eley had a 25% less variation in the rim thickness and 400% less oal compared to the SK +.

[Forrest r]

I used a .243W case that I slowly taper crimped smaller to slip fit the .22lr's OD without scraping the wax from the projectiles...
you can see the slight taper crimp in this photo.

https://i.imgur.com/eNB6r8Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K3btHmD.jpg

I started with just the one set screw but had to add both to keep the cartridge mouth centered on the upper end of the calipers.

https://i.imgur.com/OGsm5lc.jpg

I drilled a hole in a short block of wood that the cartridge would 'press fit' into and used my table saw & fence to do the milling. A carbide cabinet blade fit the width of the calipers just about perfectly.

https://i.imgur.com/VBLRnZX.jpg

Very NICE!!!!

I've always like that about you, always thinking and all in on whatever you do.

[Forrest r]

Pressman if you pm me your address I'll gladly mail you 5 pieces of 223rem brass that you could use to measure rim thicknesses.

[OS OK]

Very NICE!!!!

I've always like that about you, always thinking and all in on whatever you do.

hahaaa...thanks for the kind words for sure!

I guess that I learned early in life from my Grampa James...when I'd get in a hurry to get something done and goof it up, he'd come along and give me a ration of grief over it...saying..."How come there's always time to 're-do' your work the second time around when you can't take the time in the first place?"
I guess after a thousand chastisements I finally started to listen to ole'Poppa...

[OS OK]

Don't know, I simply went to the range and picked up a bunch of 223 cases and found 1 that a loaded 22lr would fit into and been using it ever since.

While sorting 22lrs's by rim thickness is interesting it doesn't affect accuracy as much as people think. The business end of the 22lr, namely the shoulder of the bullet has a lot more affect.
https://i.imgur.com/b6rT2kX.jpg

A good example of this is the SK standard+ pictured above was an excellent lot as was the Eley match EPS.

The sk + had a +/- .002" rim and +/- .020" oal to the shoulder. What made it an excellent lot that I bought a case of was that it had a sd of +/- 20fps while testing it in several different firearms. I use it to test rimfire firearms for mechanical issues, namely inconsistent ignition which leads to inaccuracy.

The Eley had a +/- .0015" rim and a +/- .005" oal to the shoulder. A 40x ate these match eps's like potato chips & took out many flies on the 50yd line.

At the end of the day the Eley had a 25% less variation in the rim thickness and 400% less oal compared to the SK +.

I ran across the idea of 're-profiling' and a die made to do that. ( a bit pricy too )
Have you any knowledge of this? Would it help with what you have discovered?

http://www.portercalls.com/neal_waltz_die.htm

https://i.imgur.com/nh9rNGI.jpg

[Pressman]

Forrestr, thank you for the offer. If I dig deeper into my brass stash I may find a case that will work. But, you are correct in the case rim thickness does not have much effect on accuracy. Since posting this question I have been busy searching for answers and came to the same conclusion. It's just not worth the trouble at this time.

We will be shooting 50ft matches this winter and case sorting is not goin to make a difference at that distance.

Ken

[Forrest r]

I ran across the idea of 're-profiling' and a die made to do that. ( a bit pricy too )
Have you any knowledge of this? Would it help with what you have discovered?

http://www.portercalls.com/neal_waltz_die.htm

https://i.imgur.com/nh9rNGI.jpg

I use a set of waltz dies myself along with a set of paco kelly nose forming dies. Interesting to say the least testing different hp and nose designs on squirrels using a collection of some of the best sporter 22lr's out there. The paco tool does an excellent job resizing rounds for the 25m and 5om pistols.

[Forrest r]

Forrestr, thank you for the offer. If I dig deeper into my brass stash I may find a case that will work. But, you are correct in the case rim thickness does not have much effect on accuracy. Since posting this question I have been busy searching for answers and came to the same conclusion. It's just not worth the trouble at this time.

We will be shooting 50ft matches this winter and case sorting is not goin to make a difference at that distance.

Ken

Shot a bunch of 4p 50ft matches, excellent game!!! Takes wind/ammo/rifles out of play. A mid-grade target rifle and low grade match ammo can compete with the high $$$ ammo and firearms @ 50ft.

At 50ft it comes down to trigger control and a scope. You can shoot iron sights but expect to get to the 480's and no further. Seen it for years including myself, might hit in the 490's every now and then with irons but mark it on the wall, don't happen to often. Get a good 20x scope and shoot/shoot/shoot and then shoot some more.

[OS OK]

OK...Please let an old'Fart ask a dumb question...ok"

What the heck are we doing when we sort by 'RIM_THICKNESS' ?
There is definitely a difference in the target results (me is thinking?)...but...what are we to interpret the results... as?
What does 'rim-thickness' testify to?

There are so many different variables that we have no control over whatsoever...'what "does" make a difference' when we attempt to sort?

Or . . . . is sorting of any kind, of any grade of ammo just a waste of time?

signed...'frustrated!'

[ulav8r]

First I heard of sorting by rim thickness was a magazine article that said it greatly improved accuracy in the author's 22 Mag rifle. Don't remember the name of the author or the rag.

[samari46]

When "Precision Shooting" magazine was still being published one of the many authors who published articles on 22's was Jim Calfee.
He was of the opinion that there was a fine line between having the loaded 22 cartridge fitting the chamber properly. So he would measure the rim thickness and separate them. Then would chrono and record the groups. Seems that when you had sorted the rim thickness's and found the ones that your rifle liked,it grouped better and had more consistent velocities and all the other info that a chronograph measures. And sometimes it was only a matter of a few thousandths of an inch difference between excellent ammo versus plinking ammo and this is out of the same box. I once did an informal test of 4 brands of 22rf ammo. Russian
brass cased "Junior", Win Wild Cat, rem match and Federal lower end match. 50 rounds at each target. Was looking at what some would call core groups. Anyway fired off 200 rounds which tool all afternoon. Iron sights only. The Russian "Junior" shot the best. There were 4 different levels for the Russian ammo the "Junior" came in two flavors,brass cased and steel cased I always used the brass cased. Next up was what they called "temp" never figured what temp meant. The one after that was "Sniper" and the fourth was "Olymp" or Olympic. Never did find any Olympic. I had the junior,temp,and sniper. All I ever saw of the various grades of Russian 22's was at local gun shows and they never had the olympic. Had a small dimple in the base of the cartridge probably to help spin the priming compound around equally all the way around the rim. Still have a small cardboard box with some of Eley's, Fiochhi, German. Kinds lost interest after awhile and forgot all that I did testing ammo. Word to the wise when you find a lot number that your rifle likes buy as much as your wallet can stand.
I seem to remember that Eley will do tests on your rifle as in physical testing to detirmine which one of the target ammo's shoots best in your rifle and give you the option to purchase your required amount of ammo you need. But with this covid crap that programe may or may not still be ongoing. Frank

[Forrest r]

I'm not saying sorting by rim thickness won't help, but I will say it isn't any miracle cure either. If the quality of your ammo is that bad that the rim thickness is all over the map, what makes you think everything else is perfect???

It all starts with the firearm your using. Most bolts on 22lr firearms have a .044" to .047" recess cut into them. Low grade target firearms +/- .043" and high grade/customs +/- .041".
Remington in their 540/580 series rifles knew this and designed a bolt that would take up +/- .003" and have no bind. CZ on the other hand went to a bolt face that would accept 22lr/17's/22mags with their 455 and 457 series rifles. 17 & 22mag brass is .002" larger in diameter than 22lr brass and is typically .043" to .047" in rim thickness. Yet look how many people talk about how accurate their CZ's are.

When I rework a bolt on a 22lr firearm everything gets polished and moly treated. Firing pin gets reshaped & protrusion set, extra power/heavier striker spring polished and installed, extractor re-tensioned or replaced, feed lips polished, radiused and guides trued. Bolt face is trued & set to .041". Firearms that use mags get the mags tuned, mag well trued and the mag holding pin reset and lastly the mag lips reset.

At the end of the day the op is only shooting @ 50ft. Any low grade match ammo will work for 3p/4p in rifles and cci sv for american made pistols.

[OS OK]

First off . . . . thanks 'samari46' & 'Forrest R' for your explanations...I had not been privy to any of this information & it gives me something to think about.


If the quality of your ammo is that bad that the rim thickness is all over the map, what makes you think everything else is perfect???

Second . . . . In all my 70 years I have never taken .22lr as a serious cartridge. Never realized it's accuracy or ever have I been on a club shooting team to compete, just never ran in those circles where I might have been educated by my peers.

Up until this thread where some facts are coming out, I always just assumed that the manufacture of .22lr was very different from one mfgr to the next and certainly 'never imagined' there was anything 'perfect' about them.
I assumed and still assume that for as many steps they take to load them that there are at least that many individual variables all spun together to make a box of 50 basically 'just look similar' to the neked eye alone.

There is very little that I imagined that could be done to improve one of these boxes of 'middle to low end quality' ammo, other than the obvious of taking external measurements and sorting them & shooting them and try to determine if there is actually a difference & is it worthwhile?

All my .22lr weapons have been laying in the safe collecting dust for the last 40 years since the kids grew up and left home...I suppose it was an accident that I got them out to plink a bit and sorta got hooked on this iron sight/50 yards shooting.
It is a challenge to me on many levels & being retired I find it most entertaining.