Big House Fire in Fla. attributed to reloading

[richhodg66]

News story here; https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/sarasotacounty/sarasota-fire-crews-working-to-put-out-house-engulfed-in-flames-after-explosion-reported-in-venice/67-04199cf2-7c08-40eb-91a7-d8244e075bf3?fbclid=IwAR2T3EbIDHK2InSkkqGIFmg9_Qs1 SMJe_Tg06uaBIGsLmron9Dc608vUUTA

[dangitgriff]

Could happen to anybody that reloads.
Lesson learned: do not stockpile large quantities of gunpowder in a central location inside your home. Consider getting a flammables locker if you just can’t help yourself.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201016/7a627fbde7696150000cac8e299a6c2f.jpg
Also, don’t reload near flammable liquids. Don’t be a “Special Ed”!
R/Griff

[poppy42]

Could happen to anybody that reloads.
Lesson learned: do not stockpile large quantities of gunpowder in a central location inside your home. Consider getting a flammables locker if you just can’t help yourself.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201016/7a627fbde7696150000cac8e299a6c2f.jpg
Also, don’t reload near flammable liquids. Don’t be a “Special Ed”!
R/Griff

If you store your reloading components in a locked steel cabinet you’re asking for trouble!

[am44mag]

SAAMI recommendations on powder storage.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/SAAMI-storageguidelines.pdf


Storage cabinets should be constructed of insulating materials and
with a weak wall, seams or joints to provide an easy means of self-venting.

I don't know how those steel fire cabinets are constructed, but I would hope that they are designed to self vent.

A wood cabinet, possibly lined with drywall, and designed with either a back or doors that will open/vent under low pressure would probably be the best option for those who want to build their own.

[dangitgriff]

If you store your reloading components in a locked steel cabinet you’re asking for trouble!


SAAMI recommendations on powder storage.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/SAAMI-storageguidelines.pdf

Flam lockers are designed for flammables.
Perfectly ideal place to store gunpowder.
Now, a very valid argument can be made as to the cost of these things. Most people can’t afford them.
R/Griff

[merlin101]

They weren't reloading they where "refilling ammo".

[dangitgriff]

I caught that, how dumb can the media be. These idiots think they know so much about guns. I wish someone would slap the **** out of them and kick them square in the ***.

[gbrown]

I built my own out of plywood and on wheels. Check local ordinances about amounts. Mine says in accordance with federal regs. Can't remember the agency, offhand, IIRC, 32 lb is the amount. I don't keep that much on hand.

[slim1836]

I store mine in a WW1 footlocker out in the shop.

Slim

[MT Gianni]

Don't smoke and reload, who knows what. I do know I have more questions than answers after reading that.

[poppy42]

Flam lockers are designed for flammables.
Perfectly ideal place to store gunpowder.
Now, a very valid argument can be made as to the cost of these things. Most people can’t afford them.
R/Griff
I can’t speak for any place else but not here. Not in a locked steel cabinet.

[abunaitoo]

Many smoke while reloading.
I always hear them say "I've been doing it this way forever, and never had a problem"

[Land Owner]

FL Building Codes rely on, and therefore Hazard insurance in FL, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Chapter 495:

https://i.postimg.cc/wBMhfFKQ/NFPA_495-40_Quantities.jpg

[recumbent]

Wonder if they were using a propane annealer.

[Finster101]

I have found an old refrigerator or freezer works well for storage. Keeps the moisture out too.

[dangitgriff]

I can’t speak for any place else but not here. Not in a locked steel cabinet.


FL Building Codes rely on, and therefore Hazard insurance in FL, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Chapter 495:

https://i.postimg.cc/wBMhfFKQ/NFPA_495-40_Quantities.jpg

Never heard of this requirement. Thanks for posting the regulations.
Now, can someone please explain to me why a steel flammables locker is not ideal location to keep gunpowder? Why is a flammable wood cabinet better? Are there similar concerns for loaded ammunition or the state-maximum 10,000 primers? Are fireproof safes acceptable for storing powder and primers?
R/Griff

[gbrown]

Never heard of this requirement. Thanks for posting the regulations.
Now, can someone please explain to me why a steel flammables locker is not ideal location to keep gunpowder? Why is a flammable wood cabinet better? Are there similar concerns for loaded ammunition or the state-maximum 10,000 primers? Are fireproof safes acceptable for storing powder and primers?
R/Griff
The thing is, in storing propellants, such as smokeless or black powder in a metal box or safe, you are creating a potentially explosive situation. 2 tsp of black powder in the open ignites very rapidly. Confined in a tightly confined container produces a highly dangerous explosion. Think a flash (like a camera strobe) vs. a fireworks mortar device. The wood gives or burns, while the steel will contain the gases allowing them to build up to an explosive situation.
Another analogy: put 46.5 grains of IMR 4895 on the ground and ignite--smoke and fire. Put that same amount in a 30/06 case and put a 150 grain boolit in front of it. Shoot it. Lots of deadly force possible. Its a matter of protecting our 1st responders. I never felt like volunteering for EOD.

[dangitgriff]

I understand that. Flammables lockers are designed to vent explosive gases. That’s why they cost so much more compared to a regular steel cabinet.

[john.k]

I used to see lots of Flammable Liquids cabinets come through the govt auctions ,in new condition.........the catch being ,if I had bought any ,they were lined in asbestos fabric,and had asbestos seals in the doors.......Incidentally ,a class of cabinet for flammable nitrocellulose /pyrolin,self oxygenated flammables had a large flue,that was vented to the outside ,greatly increasing installation cost.

[gbrown]

Here is an example of a DIY cabinet--
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/component-storage-cabinet.3887550/

[Thunder Stick]

Another thing to be aware of is static electricity. ESD (Electro Static Discharge) can range from 10,00 to over 30,000 volts. Sparks can cause fires. If you notice powder granuals clinging to the sides of your powder hopper, powder funnel or anything else you must properly discharge it. Plastic tooling and low humidity are always suspect. Your body and all equipment should be at the same electrical potential. That is usually accomplished by grounding everything and wearing an ESD wrist strap.

I have carpet and an old, metal frame table with a formica top in my reloading area. I have to be very careful pouring left over powder from my hopper back into the original can of powder using a plastic Lee powder funnel.

[dannyd]

Use 2x12's and you can make great storage boxes. Me I'm more worried about the two vehicles in the garage. 40 gallons of gas that's the equivalent of 2400 pounds of smokeless powder. Just saying.

[KCSO]

Years ago we stored our powder and primers in an old safe with a 3 inch vent pipe welded to the back and vented out the back of the garage. one can of powder by each powder dispenser only. Then we got some old German powder lockers and have been using them since the 1980's.

[Idz]

When explaining the difference between energy and power (brisance) of explosives we used the comparison that a Snickers bar has more energy content than military RDX explosives. Smokeless powder is essentially plastic and only becomes dangerous when confined so the pressure can increase which increases the burn rate. Gasoline, solvents, and paint can be more dangerous in the home than smokeless powder.

[dangitgriff]

I agree.
As far as the flam locker topic, I am grateful the government hasn’t mandated their use, so far. They can be spendy.
R/Griff

[bedbugbilly]

There is a whole lot of information that is still lacking this story.

As a former firefighter, we often would encounter ammunition, sometimes reloading supplies, etc. in connection with structure fires. We once fought a Victorian style house fire with balloon framing - lots of fire spread in the walls - for over two hours. THEN the home owner FINALLY came p and "mentioned" - I guess I should let you know that I have about five pounds of black powder stored in the attic". Huh? Do you think that might be important?

I have been in rooms that were fully involved with ammo cooking off but smokeless loads make more noise than they do as far as presenting a "major danger" if in the amounts that most folks may have. I vividly remember being inside fighting a house trailer fire where as my partner and I were crawling down the hall towards the kitchen where the fire started and was fully involved, explosions going off. Our first thought was "ammunition" and once we got the fire knocked down and were doing the overhaul, it turned out to be canned goods in some of the kitchen cupboards which literally exploded and blew the cupboard doors off.

The article does not really state what they were involved in doing. Were they reloading or were they transferring gunpowder from =large containers to small containers. And as stupid as it may sound - were they smoking? Were they drinking and impaired? What other flammable materials were in the garage that could contribute to major fire spread?

A lot of things could or could not be the cause of this fire and that will not be determined until the Fire Marshall does a complete investigation and the victims are interviewed and statements taken. I am assuming that with the climate in Florida, it may be like here in Arizona and other places where the water heater is in the garage. At our house here in AZ, our water heater is in the garage and it is a natural gas heater. If I am working in the garage, it's not uncommon for me to hear the burner kick on - which presents an open flame - if my wife starts the dishwasher, the washer, takes a shower, etc. Like always, the press is always eager to "get the scoup" and print a story before all the facts are known - I've seen it time and time again thought he years. It always seemed even more so when there were injuries or deaths connected with a fire.

If nothing more, it is a good reminder to think about how you do things and how you store your powder and primers as well as any other flammable goods in a garage or structure. Unfortunately, this story is connecting the fire and injuries to "reloading" before a complete investigation has been performed and the cause, if possible, determined.

[dangitgriff]

I asked about gunpowder storage in another forum and someone with experience in this area replied:
“They want it in wood because it is non-sparking. Actually construction must be such that there is no exposed metal on the interior of the powder cabinet and the interior must consist of a lining of 1" of wood but may have a metal exterior. Screw, bolts, or other (sparking - i.e. steel) metallic fasteners should be covered with caulk, liquid nails, or should be fasteners made from brass or bronze. Aluminum won't even cut the mustard since oxidized aluminum has been proven to strike sparks if impacted just right.

For storage within a residence, I don't reckon anyone will bother to be checking up a storage facility - per se. But if something does, God forbid, happen (like a fire or explosion) and they determine that quantities exceeded 20-Lbs and weren't stored properly or quantities exceeded 50-Lbs. in total there could be certain liability issues to deal with and charges filed. And, FWIW, powders and primers may not be stored in a common cabinet of any sort. Funny considering that you can keep less than the maximum quantities next to each other on an open shelf. But, once you reach those thresholds of quantities these rulings apply.

Think this is bad? I deal with products that require a minimum of 4" of hardwood or the equivalent lining a container (magazines) that must have a minimum of 1/4" steel plate, rodent proof venting, completely non-sparking means of fastening or securing the hardwood (or the equivalent) inside of it, and very specific requirements for locks and procedures for access...Making it more confusing is there are five different Types of magazines (Types I, II, III, IV, & V) - - all have different specifications for construction, locking and what can actually be stored in them. And...Making it even worse is that storage compliance is regulated by not one, but two different agencies.”

R/Griff

[jonp]

Refilling ammo?

[Mal Paso]

Propane tanks (more than one) inside the house? What BOZOS!

Smokeless Powder and primers are safer than gasoline, propane, paint thinner and don't have the btu of sugar or beans. I inspected my place after the fire. There was no disturbance where the components were stored in factory containers. The flour, rice and beans melted the refrigerator that was next to them.

I never store components in the house, an old refrigerator with magnetic door seals is my favorite.

Smokeless Powder does not have fumes or flammable dust. It's coated with carbon to prevent that. Finger nail polish remover is more dangerous.

[dverna]

I do not store much powder or primers in the house due to fire regulations. Safer to keep in the outbuilding in case of a fire so there is not impact on a claim.

I am considering a small shed under a large tree with a couple of old fridges/freezers with non latching doors.

[john.k]

Man goes out to his parked service van Monday morning ,terrific explosion ,door cuts man in two ,head lands on front lawn 50 yards across the road ,windows blown out in houses all along the street......Van explodes in carport demolishing most of the adjoining house ....these events happen with regularity .....smokeless powder?...reloading?......No ...guess what?

[Geraldo]

Big House Fire in Fla. attributed to reloading

Maybe for them it was big, but for us, house fires were house fires.


There is a whole lot of information that is still lacking this story.

Between what's missing and the poor information quoted, we know next to nothing except that the house burned and the FD didn't want to get close. Those statements about refilling ammo probably came from a public information officer, who may or may not have any fire experience. Whoever said it certainly has no experience with reloading or ammunition.

Of all the potential hazards in a fire, reloading supplies and ammunition were at the bottom of my list of concerns.

[Randy Bohannon]

Newspaper in FL reported They were casting lead in a shed on their property with 100 lbs of black powder ,acetylene tanks and propane. Oop’s happened and maybe one will survive to tell the whole story