.457 Sizing

[brad925]

I am new to casting boolits so please forgive the dumb question but if you use a mould that casts .457 how does the sizing die size bigger to .458? I thought you can only size down from the mould size or is the actual size that comes out of the.457 mould larger?:confused:

[missionary5155]

Hello Brad925 and Welcome...
That is a great question... Actually a .458 die Cannot make a boolit fatter without mechanical pressure aplied.. Like swaging. But a larger diameter die Can lube a smaller boolit without changing the as cast size.
But if you need to "Bump" a boolit to a larger diameter you can Apply some pressure to the boolit in the sizer die and a Soft boolit will squeeze to fill the sizer die. A good fitting nose punch will help not to distort or "Reform" the nose. This does not say it may be the most accurate boolit... but it works. I routinely bump boolits to a larger diameter (.001-.004) for my 44-40 1892 winny (1893) and they shoot very well out to 70 yards. I have not tried them beyond 100 yards much.

[AkMike]

You need to make sure that your boolit is .001-.002 over the bore size of your firearm.
If the slug is too small it'll go off target or tumble.

[martinibelgian]

Just tell me if I'm right - If you're looking an a Lyman bullet mould like the 457125 or 457132, well, they don't come out at .457 - more like .459-.460. I presume this will answer your question...

[brad925]

Just tell me if I'm right - If you're looking an a Lyman bullet mould like the 457125 or 457132, well, they don't come out at .457 - more like .459-.460. I presume this will answer your question...

That was what i was wondering. My H&R BC slugs out at .458. So the .457 mould is over size and the sizing die sizes it down to .458. Perfect, thanks for the info.

Brad

[Gellot Wilde]

Hi Brad

I have one of the Lyman 457125 moulds (a real classic they say) which drops a bullet of .459" when cast in 20:1 lead:tin mix. This I shoot in Pedersoli Sharps with a .458" groove-diameter and it works very well indeed.

I also shoot this same bullet in my Ballard R&C which has a slightly larger grove-dia. of .459" again the bullet shoots very well indeed even though it is not actually .001-.002 over groove-diameter. I always shoot 'as cast' and never size the bullet, I use a lubesizer from time to time but have a custom size-die in it which is big enough not to touch the bullet as it is lubed.

Do you know what alloy you are casting with or are you using pure lead?


Rob

[brad925]

I will be using WW and 50/50 lead solder. My Lyman casting book says 9 lbs WW and 1 lb 50/50 lead solder makes #2 alloy and is a good start. Would that be too hard to use bullets .001 -.002 oversize without sizing to .458?

[405]

You'll be a lucky caster if your mold drops a .459-.460 bullet. The hardness of the alloy your asking about would likely be OK at .001-.002 over-sized. First problem is getting a bullet to drop at that larger diameter. That would be a good problem to have! :mrgreen:

[Gellot Wilde]

Personally Brad I don't reckon Lyman No.2 alloy is gonna be the best starting point for your rifle.

You need to look back and see what was used at the time these things were king. The wisdom seems to be that a Lead/Tin mix of 20:1 was the norm for rifles. This dosen't mean nothing else will work by the way, it's just a good starting point.

The No.2 alloy is a 10:1 Lead/Tin mix as far as I'm aware and looks to be about a 9 on the Saeco LHT. Possibly the closet used during the period was in the British Martini-Henry using a paper-patch bullet which was made from a 12:1 mix. For a good place to start, the softer alloy's are going to be the best option and the one's normally folks say shoot best....they do for me.....well most of the time. :-?

Of course 405 is quite correct, you will indeed be 'lucky' if you can get the Lyman mould to drop a .459" -.460" bullet, especially anywhere near .460". Maybe one of the SAECO molds might be worth trying, they claim to be .458-.460", never had one so can't comment. The Lyman I have drops them just a shade under.459"with a 20:1 mix.....it's about 15 years old this particular mould and is still going strong.

:drinks:

[brad925]

Maybe i should add a little more info here on what i am looking to do with this round.
I will be shooting smokless powder , 400 to 500gr cast bullet as fast and as accurately as i can get it to shoot. It will be mainly for hunting. The most i would shoot is 3 to 4 shots at a sitting so i am not worried about recoil. As for accuracy i am kinda fussy. In other hunting rifles i like to see a 1 inch grouping at a 100yds. I am not sure what to expect in a H&R BC. But will be using the sights it came with so i will have to see. My H&R Ultra in 450 Marlin with 350 gr bullets would 1.25 at a 100yds and hit a steel ram at 425 yds 4 out of 5 times. This was using a scope. Here where i am i rarely get a shot under 200yds. Alot of open fields and little cover.
So i geuss the question is what is a good alloy mix for a hunting bullet and then i go from there to find a powder and load that works with this particular gun...............GOD I LOVE THIS STUFF........LOLOL!!!!

[405]

Well, I'd think, while on the hunting subject, accuracy and accurate shooting and shooting at conservative ranges should be the number one priority.... never saw a lost cripple paper target.

As far as alloy? Anything much harder than pure lead won't contribute much to energy transfer if that's what you're referring to. At higher pressures and higher velocities accuracy tends to go south with a soft alloy pretty quickly. Your gun will tell you. You may be able to increase the higher velocity accuracy of the soft alloys some with a good bullet design, correct diameter, good lube and a gas check. Still, I'd approach hunting with the 45 as if it is going to shoot thru and thru at 45 cal. Accuracy and shot placement top priority with energy transfer secondary.

If getting into cast bullet shooting and casting in any way serious... a hardness tester is a most useful tool. They used to be very expensive but the Lee tester at 40.00 +/- works very well.

For what it's worth wheel weights are listed as pretty soft alloy at BHN 9 in most books but I've found a huge variation in WW hardness--- something like a soft BHN 6 to very hard BHN 17. The only way I can get a reliable, repeatable BHN hardness for my casting alloy is to use a hardness tester.

If my objective BHN hardness for a light smokeless load is say 10 or 11, I'll start with pure lead then add tin to about 30:1. Then add increments of smelted wheel weight until the BHN comes up to the desired number. For most blackpowder cast shooting I'll go straight to a lead-tin mix at either 20:1 or 30:1. Using pure lead plus known tin, I know the hardness is repeatable and predictable.

[Gellot Wilde]

[QUOTE=brad925;445208] I will be shooting smokless powder QUOTE]


Ahhh ignore me brad, thought you'd be talking black powder in here, sorry. [smilie=1:

It will never catch on you know that smokeless powder, I reckon it's just a passing fad! :mrgreen:

[montana_charlie]

I will be shooting smokless powder , 400 to 500gr cast bullet as fast and as accurately as i can get it to shoot. It will be mainly for hunting.
You are asking for contradictions in performance parameters.

Soft lead alloy will be more likely to make a good hunting bullet, but does not do well in the "as fast as I can get it to shoot" department.

Lyman #2 is hard enough to allow some increased muzzle velocity, but may not bump up much...especially when pushed with the kind of pressure curves typical of smokeless.

Since either of these conditions could result in leading, and since a hard bullet may not 'kill well', I would say load jacketed soft points over smokeless...and be done with it.
CM

[SharpsShooter]

My 2 cents here. The 45-70 is not a race horse. If you feel the need to drive 500gr boolits to 1800-1900fps, get a 458 Winny. The 45-70 loaded to BP velocities is capable of killing anything on this continent at ranges most would not attempt. (Don't believe me??? Seen any Buffalo recently???) Load a 20:1 or even 30:1 alloy bullet of proper diameter to a velocity of 12-1300fps and it will do all you ask and more. The softer alloy combined with the additional dwell time in the body of the intended dinner entre` will give you the best performance. In addition it will be pleasant to shoot you will be far less prone to flinch when the time comes for the critical shot. I have been shooting 45-70 for over 25 years and you just don't gain enough to make it worth the additional effort.


SS

[missionary5155]

Good morning Brad... Head to the Paper Patch section. Your parameters are reachable...
Ever since rifling was invented shooters have faced the delema of how to push soft lead fast. Paper patching is the historical solution. 130 +- years ago metal patched projectiles began to appear and slowly Paper Patching (PP) began to not be used by many shooters.. time , convinience, and simple ease for those who had little hunting time and money in their pockets from city jobs. So here we are today.. there is nothing new under the sun. You want a FAST hunting boolit... Paper Patch.
But what are you hunting that requires so much energy ? Has there been an outbreak of mastadons or ground sloths...

[brad925]

I don't really need the speed for anything other than to flatten it out a little to make my sights work a little bit better...and this is only if it shots accuratly too.....if it ends up shooting all over the place thats not gonna work either.....i was origanally just wanting to know where the upper limit was so i could find a hapy medium. As for what i would be shooting that would be moose. I have shot enough of them to know that they are not easily impressed with energy...not like shooting a deer. Penetration is the key here and with the 45-70 and big boolits 1300 to 1500 fps does the job nicely. If your using jacketed boolits, say 350 to 405 grainers your gonna need 1800 to 2000 fps to get them to work the way they were designed. Thanks for the info though it is appreciated.