Advice on "hard cast" 9mm load

[Brick85]

I have probably 1300 "New England Casting 124gr Hard Cast" projectiles. They have the crayola type wax in the lube groove, half of it falling out.

I figured these would be an easy way for me to load some 9mm since I have several guns in that caliber, one of them a short AR-15 with a 10.5" barrel.

I also scored a bunch of Power Pistol and Red Dot. But when I looked at my primer stash I was horrified to see that I have only a few thousand SPP.

So I put together a short series to work up a load with Power Pistol. My goal was to get these as fast as possible while still maintaining accuracy. I want these as plinking loads which I could use as defensive loads if I got real desperate.

The 5.8gr load was the most accurate, but I went all the way up to 6.7gr. At about 6.2gr I started noticing smoke coming out of the muzzle.

So I was thinking maybe I should set up my chronograph (it has not been easy to get it to work at my local indoor range) and load up a larger series of maybe 5.8gr, 6.2 gr, and 6.7 gr. I could also work up a series with Red Dot. But my main concern is that I don't want to use up my relatively scarce supply of primers for testing a load like this.

I'm also wondering if I should scrape out the crayola wax lube and run these through the lubrisizer with something better in it, so they are more consistently lubed.

Do any of you more experienced folks have any ideas?

[mnewcomb59]

6.7 is probably too hot for good accuracy and no leading. Depending on your OAL it is overpressure. That charge is only safe with a 124 rn seated at mag length or is +p with a HP at 1.13". With a deep seated HP like the XTP at 1.06", the max charge is more like 5.7 with 6.0 being +p. 6.7 is a really hot load and will make major with a jacketed bullet and a 5 inch barrel. It is a full power load for sure. I would bet the lead bullet would be 1350 fps in a 5" and 1600 in the 10.5".

I use more PP than anything else in 9mm. I get decent handgun accuracy with lead up to 5.7 gr which is around 1250 fps in a 5". My rifle shoots 5.7 clean but 3" at 50 yards. 5.3 shoots 10 shots into an inch at 50 yards with water dropped 4% antimony bullets.

My rifle likes 5.3 gr with many bullets. The Lee 125- rf at 1.06", the TL124-rn at 1.12", the 147 HST and the 147 XTP

[Mal Paso]

An oven at low temp will melt the old lube out. Spread on paper towels. If you want fast, you need a good lube or a Lewis Lead Remover.

[Kosh75287]

I got ZERO idea if this'd work, or even if it's worth the hassle, ASSUMING it'd work. What if you heat the bullets up to 300 - 400 F, then dump them in water. I know that water quenching bullets straight from the molds will increase hardness. I wonder if this might have a similar effect.

You'll lose the lube in lube grooves, but if you're thinking of relubing them anyway...

[Dusty Bannister]

I got ZERO idea if this'd work, or even if it's worth the hassle, ASSUMING it'd work. What if you heat the bullets up to 300 - 400 F, then dump them in water. I know that water quenching bullets straight from the molds will increase hardness. I wonder if this might have a similar effect.

You'll lose the lube in lube grooves, but if you're thinking of relubing them anyway...

Below 400+ degrees you will be annealing those cast bullets. Pretty likely you will find that the flash point for the lube is exceeded trying to heat treat those bullets after they have already been lubed. Safer to just tumble lube them and proceed from there.

[LinotypeIngot]

I would try tumbling those bullets in some Lee Liquid Alox. I don't think it'll be affected much by the existing bits of crusty old wax lube.

[Brick85]

I'm tempted to pick out the old wax and then try powder coating. Maybe shake and bake, or maybe get the Harbor Freight gun.

Does "hard cast" mean they were water dropped when cast or is it referring to an additive in the lead?


6.7 is probably too hot for good accuracy and no leading. Depending on your OAL it is overpressure. That charge is only safe with a 124 rn seated at mag length or is +p with a HP at 1.13". With a deep seated HP like the XTP at 1.06", the max charge is more like 5.7 with 6.0 being +p. 6.7 is a really hot load and will make major with a jacketed bullet and a 5 inch barrel. It is a full power load for sure. I would bet the lead bullet would be 1350 fps in a 5" and 1600 in the 10.5".

I use more PP than anything else in 9mm. I get decent handgun accuracy with lead up to 5.7 gr which is around 1250 fps in a 5". My rifle shoots 5.7 clean but 3" at 50 yards. 5.3 shoots 10 shots into an inch at 50 yards with water dropped 4% antimony bullets.

My rifle likes 5.3 gr with many bullets. The Lee 125- rf at 1.06", the TL124-rn at 1.12", the 147 HST and the 147 XTP

Guess it makes sense to try these at 5.8 in the AR and also in a couple handguns, see how they like it.

[Thumbcocker]

I would try tumbling those bullets in some Lee Liquid Alox. I don't think it'll be affected much by the existing bits of crusty old wax lube.

This ^^^

[dverna]

I may be facing the same issue with thousands of bullets bought almost 10 years ago. I have not had leading issues yet but I do not drive 9mm plinking loads at maximum as you are.

If I need to "up" the lube, I plan on putting on one or two coats of BLL. It is fast and cheap and not gooey.

If I were you, I would not waste primers choreographing loads. In the famous words of Hillary, "What difference does it make?" You can estimate velocity close enough with load data and you are not trying for sub MOA or doping a load for 600 yards hits.

[Brick85]

I may be facing the same issue with thousands of bullets bought almost 10 years ago. I have not had leading issues yet but I do not drive 9mm plinking loads at maximum as you are.

If I need to "up" the lube, I plan on putting on one or two coats of BLL. It is fast and cheap and not gooey.

If I were you, I would not waste primers choreographing loads. In the famous words of Hillary, "What difference does it make?" You can estimate velocity close enough with load data and you are not trying for sub MOA or doping a load for 600 yards hits.

What is BLL?

[P Flados]

BLL is a tumble lube made with Lee Liquid Alox as the lubricant and a liquid floor wax product (no longer available) mixed in to get better results as far as drying to a non sticky surface.

Straight Lee Liquid Alox provides the same degree of lube function but is more messy and sticky.

I use lots of tumble lube (BLL). Basically everything I cast that does not need PC.

In my opinion, trying clean and then powder coat a big batch sounds like a much less than ideal endeavor.

If I ever run out of my stash for making BLL, I will try 45-10-10 sold by White label lube. It is a ready to use liquid lube that works a lot like BLL based on reports from those that have used it.

https://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=14&zenid=ihtstpu8t47lmlegglfkkug6v6

[fredj338]

I'm tempted to pick out the old wax and then try powder coating. Maybe shake and bake, or maybe get the Harbor Freight gun.

Does "hard cast" mean they were water dropped when cast or is it referring to an additive in the lead?



Guess it makes sense to try these at 5.8 in the AR and also in a couple handguns, see how they like it.

WOnt likely work, the powder wont stick. You didnt say what dia but a harder bullet should be a bit bigger imo, like 0.357" for 9mm running hard. Resizing & filling the entire groove would help.

[charlie b]

Hard cast typically refers to a harder alloy used to cast the bullets vs the soft wadcutters you can buy.

If you want to powder coat then you'll have to clean out the old lube and use some sort of solvent to get rid of the residual oils left on the bullets. Not hard to do.

[dverna]

What is BLL?

Do a search on Ben’s Liquid Lube. Many satisfied users.

[charlie b]

The problem with BLL is you can't get Johnson's liquid wax anymore. There are some who have tried alternatives so do some research on it.

[Larry Gibson]

I would try tumbling those bullets in some Lee Liquid Alox. I don't think it'll be affected much by the existing bits of crusty old wax lube.

Plus another for this. LLA is not sticky and messy if applied correctly and dried thoroughly before loading. A very light coat is all that is needed. Use just enough to give the bullets a golden hue. I use a plastic peanut butter jar, fill half with bullets, add a couple drops of LLA put the lid on and roll around until the bullets are very lightly coated. If cold and/or gooey putting the LLA bottle in hot tap water for 5 - 10 minutes makes it run thinner. Resist the temptation to add too much LLA. After tumbling spread the bullets out on a sheet of wax paper to dry at least 24 hours or more until they are not sticky. Used and applied correctly LLA is every bit as good and non sticky as BLL was or any other of the TL concoctions.

With Red Dot just load them over 4 gr and go with that load. It has proven a good one over the years with numerous 115 - 125 gr 9mm cast bullets.

[Dukeconnor]

I have removed old lube by boiling a pot of water and tossing the bullets in. The lube floats to the top and if you let it cool the lube can be skimmed off the top with a paper towel.

[rintinglen]

The advantage of BLL or Recluse formula 45-45-10 over Lee Liquid Alox is in the quicker drying time. LLA can take up to 48 hours to dry when applied correctly. Get a little heavy handed with it and it can take days. The modern version of Bill's Liquid Lube uses Lundmark Liquid Furniture Wax in place of the Johnson and Johnson's version and a bit more Mineral spirits.

30% lundmark liquid wax
30% xlox/LLA
40% solvent(mineral spirits)
Warm the Wax and LLA (NO OPEN FLAMES), mix together, then stir in the mineral spirits. Pour into a suitable bottle and use sparingly. I used 20 drops on 8 pounds of H&G 50 wadcutters and that was plenty.

[Brick85]

Thanks, folks! Looks like I need to get some Alox/Xlox and some Lundmark. I'm also reminded that I should have all the ingredients for Ben's Red around and I ought to get them out and make some up.

If I do leave the old wax lube in the bullets, is it a problem that many of them have only half a ring? Will it melt before it goes very far down the barrel and thus distribute more evenly?

Also, I know Red Dot burns very fast. Will it keep accelerating in the 10.5" barrel, or would it risk starting to slow down? That was my thinking when I went for the Power Pistol vs the Red Dot. I'm not averse to trying out some Red Dot and seeing how it goes, even setting up the chrony when I do some plinking and shooting through that to double or triple purpose each round fired. My ultimate plan with 9mm is to use the Miha mould in the Active Group Buys section, which since it is supposed to drop at .359 will likely wind up losing the lube groove if I reduce it to .356. So I could either PC them or use BLL, so even this experimentation will serve a greater purpose. Maybe I will use Red Dot for loading that boolit too.

[P Flados]

As shown below, Quickload says you are still accelerating with 4.1 grs in a 10.5" gun.

Note that 4.1 grs was the max that I plugged in as it said this was 105% load density. With all of the variations in 9mm brass, I am not sure I would want a heavily compressed load. I use a lot of promo (Red Dot equivalent) but actually went with TiteGroup for the 9 as I prefer less than 100% load density.

If you drop to 3.8 gr, QL says 97% load density, 1228 fps and it still says you are accelerating at 10.5".

269503

[BigAlofPa.]

I have some .452 boolets. Some of the lube came out. I fill in the gaps with chapstick. I have not had any leading.

[Brick85]

Hmm maybe I will try red dot with the new mould boolits then.

ChapStick on boolits sounds like a lot of work!

[charlie b]

If some of it comes off, just pluck out the rest and relube. You do want lube all the way around.

At lower velocities most lubes will work fine, including chapstick as the base is a wax of some sort.

[Brick85]

Thanks for the advice, folks! What I did was put them all in a jar and pour in some paint thinner, and let it sit for a few weeks so the wax all dissolved off and collected in the bottom of the jar. Then I coated them with the newer BLL using the Lundemark floor product rather than the Johnson's. And then after carefully dry aging them like a fine cut of beef for a bit over a year (for improved tenderness and flavor), I've loaded them up over 3.8 grains of Power Pistol at a COAL of 1.106". They shoot pretty well, though one gun seems to hate them since they don't drop into the chamber and won't automatically eject even though they come out OK when I rack the slide. These do what I need them to do and that's good enough for me to use them up!

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I've powder coated many lubed bullets in the past. Just put them in a pot of boiling water. The wax will melt and float to the top. Very easy.

[Brick85]

I've powder coated many lubed bullets in the past. Just put them in a pot of boiling water. The wax will melt and float to the top. Very easy.

The question I have with this approach is what do you do with the water afterwards? I reckon the wax would clog up the drain. Or is it in clumps you can skim off?

[Winger Ed.]

The question I have with this approach is what do you do with the water afterwards?

Let it cool and the lube will float to the top and more or less solidify like any other grease, fat, or wax.
A little time in the refrigerator speeds this process up.

Once the water is cold, flip it out into the trash.