Chambering question.

[waksupi]

I'm doing some pondering. I have an action on the way, that Samco says is 1/4" shorter than the standard M98 action. I'd like to chamber this in .35 Whelen, but won't be sure things will fit until I get it, as in cartridge OAL.
As an option, I considered rechambering my .358 Win to .35 Whelen, with the longer VZ24 action, and making the new one .358 Win.
My question for you guys who can read numbers. Can the .358 Win. be rechambered to the .35 Whelen?
Does anyone have one of the shorter actions, and what have you been able to chamber them to?
Idealy, the bullets would seat to an OAL of 3.03-3.07", with the molds I have on hand.

[felix]

Ric, yes the 358 can be rechambered to the 35 whelen, assuming the reamers match up, which might not happen in practice. Cutting the barrel back and rethreaded a little, then it can be done; or, using a fatter then spec 35 whelen reamer without messing with the barrel at all. It really depends on the smithy involved and his tools. Remember, 14 twist for the 280's; 16 twist for 250's and below. Your current 12 twist is too much. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Large Ring M-98
1.410 dia receiver ring, 8.750 in length, with screw spacing of 7.835. Barrel Shank of 1.100
Large ring have a threaded shank diameter of 1.10 in. With 12 threads per inch.
Including M-98's from WWI and WW2, GEW-98,M-98k, CZ-24, VZ-24,Spanish M-43/44 . Chilean M1912, Steyr Brazilian M1908/34, Brno 98/22, 98/29, DWM / Argentine. M1909, M24/30 Venezuelan, FN M1935 Peruvian, FN Standard Model, Mauser Oberndorf

Intermediate Large Ring M-98 ,(Large ring, Short action) M-24
1.410 dia. receiver ring, 8.50 in length, with screw spacing of 7.620
Intermediate Large ring have a threaded shank diameter of 1.10 in. With 12 threads per inch.
Mexicans by FN and Belgium, the M24, M47, M48 by FN and Yugoslavia. A large number of M48 Yugoslavian large-ring M98 Mausers have recently been dropped on the market. This M-98 short is considered an intermediate action, and WILL NOT fit a Standard 98 Mauser stocks and standard bolts will not interchange..

[versifier]

The bolts and stocks won't interchange, but the barrels ought to - same shank diameter & length, same thread pitch. Why not put the .358 barrel on the shorter action and chamber the longer one in .35 Whelen? Even if the .358 has to be set back a thread, refaced, and then finish reamed for headspace issues, you're still ahead of the game with two functional rifles that will each feed properly without having to consider any major modifications.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have tried to get 308s rechambered to 3006 in the past and was told that the 3006 reamer would not clean up the 308 chamber. If this is so, I can't see how the 35 Whelan reamer could clean up the 358 Win chamber. Good luck with it, but I have a pre 64 Mod 70 in 308 that I want as a 3006, and I was told the 3006 Ackerly was the only way this would work.

[felix]

I was afraid of that! ... felix

[NVcurmudgeon]

Not a machinist, just a sometimes bumbling shooter who for a long time believed that a .30/06/.35 Whelen reamer will not clean up a .308/.358 Win. chamber. That is, until the day I fired a moderate .308 CB load in my .30/06 Springfield. The .308 chambered and extracted easily, formed a .45 VLACP (Very Long Automatic Colt Pistol) case, and even shot into the group. That was the day I learned to have only one box of ammunition on the bench at a time. My guess is that no gunsmith wants to take on the job because if he does a precision set up, and the original chambering wasn't, or vice versa, the result will be a ruined barrel.

[waksupi]

The bolts and stocks won't interchange, but the barrels ought to - same shank diameter & length, same thread pitch. Why not put the .358 barrel on the shorter action and chamber the longer one in .35 Whelen? Even if the .358 has to be set back a thread, refaced, and then finish reamed for headspace issues, you're still ahead of the game with two functional rifles that will each feed properly without having to consider any major modifications.

Now, there's a good idea!

[Ricochet]

Yeah, that's the way to go. I obviously haven't tried it, but I've read that it's pretty hard to get an "intermediate length" Mauser action to work with .30-06 length cartridges.

[Bob S]

Not a machinist, just a sometimes bumbling shooter who for a long time believed that a .30/06/.35 Whelen reamer will not clean up a .308/.358 Win. chamber. That is, until the day I fired a moderate .308 CB load in my .30/06 Springfield. The .308 chambered and extracted easily, formed a .45 VLACP (Very Long Automatic Colt Pistol) case, and even shot into the group. That was the day I learned to have only one box of ammunition on the bench at a time. My guess is that no gunsmith wants to take on the job because if he does a precision set up, and the original chambering wasn't, or vice versa, the result will be a ruined barrel.

Firing a .308 in an '06 doesn't show that the 30-06 reamer will "clean up" a 308 chamber. It won't, period. You'll end up with a "step" in the body where the .308 shoulder used to be. The .308 case, (and reamer) is wider at the shoulder than the same longitudinal position on the 30-06 case. There is an interference fit at the shoulder when you chamber a .308 in a 30-06. You won't feel it unless you strip your bolt of the firing pin spring and extractor and plunger ejector, if it has one. Then you can definitely feel it. In a turnbolt action, or the M1 under the tension of the op rod spring, there is more than enough force available to fully chamber the .308 cartridge despite the interference at the shoulder.

The possibility of chambering and firing a .308 in a 30-06 chamber was investigated extensively the first year that both would be present on the firing line at the National Matches (1965). With Springfields and pre-64 Model 70's, (controlled feed actions) the extractor grabs the rim and holds it; the resistance is not felt by the shooter, and firing is virtually 100%. With the M1 rifle and "new" (then) Model 70's, the resistance at the shoulder was all that would restrain the cartridge enough for reliable ignition, and firing occurred in about 75% of these trials. The shooter would notice nothing "odd" until the case was extracted, and he noticed that it sort of resembled a 444 Marlin. The shots would group low on the target, but the groups were not all that bad. National Match officials concluded that there was no safety issue, just an embarrassment for the shooter.

Without looking at the drawings for the .358 and 35 Whelan, I can't be certain, but it would be a safe guess that the same situation exists between these two cartridges.

From personal experience, the intermediate-length Mauser actions are really too short for reliable feeding with 30-06-length cartridges, and the magazines are WAY too short. Even some of the military conversions of standard-length actions to 30-06 are less than 100% reliable. The Yugo intermediate actions, the 24/47 or the 48, function beautifully with .308: I have one of each barreled to .308. I'd be willing to bet that those actions would make up into very sweet .358's as well. BTW, you don't need to use a safety breech barrel on these actions. They will work fine with a standard M98 large ring barrel.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[waksupi]

From personal experience, the intermediate-length Mauser actions are really too short for reliable feeding with 30-06-length cartridges, and the magazines are WAY too short. Even some of the military conversions of standard-length actions to 30-06 are less than 100% reliable. The Yugo intermediate actions, the 24/47 or the 48, function beautifully with .308: I have one of each barreled to .308. I'd be willing to bet that those actions would make up into very sweet .358's as well. BTW, you don't need to use a safety breech barrel on these actions. They will work fine with a standard M98 large ring barrel.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Bob, I built my .358 Win on a Vz24 action, and had to do a fair amount of work on the feed rails to get them to feed properly. I may keep the short action, and look for something else to do a Whelen on. I can always do a varminter with the short action.

[versifier]

Not at all intending to throw cold water on a good project, I have to ask: What advantage is there for the Whelen when you are shooting cast? The extra powder space is pretty much superfluous as you aren't pushing them out fast enough to need the added oomph of the larger case. (For large game like moose, elk, or black bear with jacketed bullets at 2500+fps, yes, I'd definitely rather the Whelen over the .358.)
Now I get out my violin... :violin:
The .35Rem is all one really needs for cast in .35 caliber, but is difficult to adapt with the Mauser-sized boltface, so the .358 makes good sense, though it has a greater capacity than is really necessary. For the same reason, the .30-30 or the 7.62X39mm will really do everything with cast that any of the larger .30 caliber cases will do. I think that the .308X1.5" will do the trick in a Mauser.
The only reason to use the larger cases is that you already have the rifle and want to put it to good cast use. No problem there at all, but in general, I think that using large capacity cases for cast loads is asking for trouble. For a custom rifle intended strictly for shooting cast, why not use the smaller case that will do the job with less danger of a double charge.
That said, I enjoy shooting .30-30, .308, & -06 rifles with all kinds of bullets, cast and jacketed, but my next custom .30 cal projects are going to be .30/223 and .308X1.5. I think they'll both be perfect for deer and coyote hunting at the short ranges here in the thick woods of the White Mountains.

[Blackwater]

Waksupi, my Whelen is the Ackley version, and you could do a lot worse than shoot one of these. I'm no big fan of fireforming brass, but I think I'm going to try some of the cream of wheat, light pistol powder load, greased cases with a wax plug over the COW my next fireforming session. That shouldn't heat the barrel the way fireforming with j-bullets will.

I wanted the best velocity I could get with a .35 bore and '06 case, and though it's no barn burner, you DO get a little more velocity. You may lose a round of magazine capacity, and may have to fiddle with the feed rails a little more, but no real biggie. Personally, a .358 on that shorter Mauser action sounds like a real winner to me. The maximized Ackely version on the longer action and the shorty on the short one has a lot of aesthetic and technical appeal to me, but that's just me of course.

Now that you've fiddled with the feed rails to get that M-24 to feed the shorter .358's is the only thing that would cause me some concern if you lengthen that chamber, though, and if it's perkin' like you want it to, I'd hesitate to change it. Of course all that means is that you've now got the perfect excuse for another action and gun. There are MUCH worse fates than that, and taking it all in all, I really think that may be your best bet after modifying the feed rails in that M-24. FWIW?

[StarMetal]

versifier,

Sounds like you should get a 6.5 Grendel and neck it up to 30 caliber. Have your cake and eat it too that way.

Joe

Edit P.S. Or for better brass availability neck up the 6.8 Remington.

[waksupi]

Waksupi, my Whelen is the Ackley version, and you could do a lot worse than shoot one of these. I'm no big fan of fireforming brass, but I think I'm going to try some of the cream of wheat, light pistol powder load, greased cases with a wax plug over the COW my next fireforming session. That shouldn't heat the barrel the way fireforming with j-bullets will.

I wanted the best velocity I could get with a .35 bore and '06 case, and though it's no barn burner, you DO get a little more velocity. You may lose a round of magazine capacity, and may have to fiddle with the feed rails a little more, but no real biggie. Personally, a .358 on that shorter Mauser action sounds like a real winner to me. The maximized Ackely version on the longer action and the shorty on the short one has a lot of aesthetic and technical appeal to me, but that's just me of course.

Now that you've fiddled with the feed rails to get that M-24 to feed the shorter .358's is the only thing that would cause me some concern if you lengthen that chamber, though, and if it's perkin' like you want it to, I'd hesitate to change it. Of course all that means is that you've now got the perfect excuse for another action and gun. There are MUCH worse fates than that, and taking it all in all, I really think that may be your best bet after modifying the feed rails in that M-24. FWIW?


Good observation on possible problems, with the altered feed rails. I don't know about doing an Ackley Improved, as I don't kjnow what I would do with the extra powder capacity for cast bullets. The more I'm thinking about it, this could turn into a two gun project. I have been offered a goodly sum for my .358 that I am shooting now, more than enough to cover the projects. You guys just keep bringing up these possibilities. You'll get me straightened out eventually!

[sundog]

Ric, if'n ya got the hots for a 35 Whelan and yer gonna shoot the BIG cast boolits in it, get a long action suitable for 30-06. I used a 700 that started life as a Wal Mart special 30-06. Screwed on a 14 twist Shillen, a good scope, and voila. 358009I, mv 1900, MOA at 200. One of these days I'll put it in a 'mo beta' stock, maybe a nice trigger. No regrets. btw, I had the mould (one of the David Mos special project moulds) long before the gun got built. Matter of fact, these boolits shoot so good, I don't think I've ever tried anything else. Certainly no jacketed! Ever. Not in this one. sundog

[felix]

Yeah, we did, Sundog. Remember when we shot that thing at 24-2600 with 180s, trying to reduce the recoil somewhat from the 280s. Well, maybe it worked just a little, but the power of the 35 at that velocity makes one take quick notice. But, if you want to break concrete highway sections, then the 280s shine. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. The 30-06 family of cartridges will not clean up the 308 family of cases without a barrel set back. That is because the 308 family is an "improved" case design. (less body taper) Then you have stock fitting issues that bother some people.

I would leave the 358 alone and trade for another action if it were me. I would want action length for seating purposes.

I agree with versifier that the 35 Remington is all you need up to a 250 grain bullet in 35 caliber and you get a better throat for shorties. But the disadvantage is that you would have to throat it out for the 250 and then you lose the bomttom end. That is a negative on the Whelen unless you cut a custom reamer and shorten the free bore some.

I think .200 would be ideal in 35 caliber and this would change your taper to a more cast friendly number. This puts you right at the bottom of the case neck for a one diameter, 250 grain bullet. And you can go bore ride above that if you feel you need the weight. The standard SAAMI length is .250. If you were going to get the reamer made, I would send them a loaded round and have then also grind off the neck diameter on the reamer down for .002 clearance. If you buy the reamer from JGH, they will do this for you at no cost after they talk to you and you tell them what you are doing it for. They will even make suggestions if you want.

Then you can shoot light loads and not have headspace problems or sooty case necks. The SAAMI specs were established by Remington that has a history of LARGE chamber necks. But that's me. Thats why, if I had to do this all over and wanted to use a standard reamer, I would build a 358 for up to 250s.

250 grains will penetrate over 20 " of hard eastern maple at just 14 BHN and maintain over 100 grains when it get's there. That's about two Elk end to end and you can always harden from there if you need more. There is no NEED for a heavier bullet for penetration on this continent. IMO.

[felix]

I will second BA's suggestion, Ric. Keep in mind that I am very recoil sensitive. ... felix

[sundog]

Felix, yup, forgot all about that. Feller can get a little 'flinchy' after awhile.... Whole reason my gun was built is IF I should ever go to another elk hunt. In the meantime, it's been fun playing. sundog

[Bass Ackward]

I will second BA's suggestion, Ric. Keep in mind that I am very recoil sensitive. ... felix


Felix,

Really? More than one person has attested to this. I seem to be pretty impervious. The only thing that really hurts me these days is a 378 WBY in a right hand configuration. Not that is pure pain.

But I know this seems strange, I enjoy my 35 better with a solid 1/4" pad than any of my 06's running jacketed loads. And my 35s are faster than visable by a darned sight. The recoil is more of a push than a jab. Same with my 458s. Of coarse I maintain more gun weight there too. 6.5 to 8 lbs with a scope for sure.

[StarMetal]

I'm like John, recoil doesn't bother me, but that's not to say I like heavy recoiling rifles. I understand his explanation of the 35 being more of a push then the 06. Sorta like the difference between a shotgun and a rifle.

Joe

[Ricochet]

The only thing that really hurts me these days is a 378 WBY in a right hand configuration.
Are you a lefty?

Do those stocks have "cast" to suit shooting one way or the other, or is the difference due to the cheekpiece on one side?

[waksupi]

Well, I must confess, the only reason the Whelen came to mind, rather than another .358 Win, is I have lotsa .-06 brass. And A&B has cheap .35 whelen barrels through Midway at thebtime. Sound like a familiar syndrome?
I believe I will just stick with another .358, now I need to look for a 1-14 barrel.

[Maxthompson]

Ric,

I picked one up at lunch today. Haven't had time to do much more than scan it. If you would like a copy I'd be happy to pick one up for you.

Mike