Alliant Reloader 7 .44-40 load

[w30wcf]

Back in March, 2005, there was some discussion regarding the Alliant Reloader 7 data for the .44-40.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=514616&CategoryID=228143&threadid=1945595&highlight_key=y&keyword1=44%2D40

To continue........

I did eventually try the 240 gr. cast bullet Alliant load of 23.5 grs. in my '73 (1882) .44-40. It went 1,170 f.p.s. in my rifle's 21" barrel. At 50 yards, the group was just under 1 3/4" with all bullets printing nice round holes in the target even in the slow 1/38" twist barrel.

In a friend's 24" barrel it was almost 100 f.p.s. faster at 1,266 f.p.s. which is close to Alliant's published data of 1,290 f.p.s.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=514616&CategoryID=228143&threadid=1945595&highlight_key=y&keyword1=44%2D40

A capacity load of RL7 does a nice job of duplicating black powder ballistics with good accuracy in the vintage .44-40.

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

Jack--

I should have looked here before sending you the PM this morning.

My 1897-vintage '73 WILL NOT shoot the 240-250 grainers--at all. It has done some decent work with the Lee 200 FN's with between 12.5 and 14.0 of 2400, but still throws a flier or two in every 10-round group. I'd sure like to shrink those groups down from the 2"-3" averages they've done in the past.

The case-capacity/RL-7 load for the 200-215 grainers will be the next step in the 44-40 work for me. The 32-20 work with similar characteristics did fairly well, but the rifle's barrel is so new I think any results are kinda inconclusive until it gets a few miles on it--maybe with a couple hundred of those red-coated critters. These two hyphenated Winchester chamberings are going to be the focus of my range work this year.

[w30wcf]

Deputy Al,

The 240 gr. bullets I tried are a "Magma" cowboy design and are .675" long. It has more weight forward than the SWC designs.

By comparison, the Lyman 429421 Keith bullet I have is almost .10" longer at .77". I can see why that one would not be stable at lower speeds in the slow twist.

The tried and true 427098 is just a little shorter then the 240 gr. Magma at .64" long.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

A capacity load of Reloader 7 under the historical 215 gr. 427098 bullet in the .44-40 24" barrel tripped the screens at an average velocity of 1,367 f.p.s. with very good accuracy.

w30wcf

[fourarmed]

I did a little experimenting with Rel 7 in the .44-40. I noticed that the type of primer used had a considerable effect on velocity and velocity consistency.

[Savvy Jack]

A capacity load of Reloader 7 under the historical 215 gr. 427098 bullet in the .44-40 24" barrel tripped the screens at an average velocity of 1,367 f.p.s. with very good accuracy.

w30wcf

John,
What primers worked best for which bullets? Did you use the Remington 2 1/2 here?

[9.3X62AL]

Not certain what this could mean......just an FYI for now. I saw this older thread re-appear last night, then got woke up by a bad dream. The two occurrences aren't related, but I'm generally in bed this time of night. I went to the Alliant Powder site to see if they still recommended RL-7 for use in the 44-40 WCF, and found no such data. They DO list RL-7 for use in the 32-20 WCF with 100 grain Speer redcoats, and in "strong actions". Cowboy load data shows shotgun powders only with lead boolits. FWIW.

[Savvy Jack]

Yeah, the information is not on their website but I was curious if it was in their latest published book. I think it is just the fact that manufactures seem to shy away from the 44-40 for some reason. I sent them an email but no response yet.

[w30wcf]

I went to my "library" and went through the Hercules & Alliant manuals I have.
The first (though it may not have been the 1st) manual with the 44-40 RL-7 info I have is dated 1995 and the last (though it may not have been the last) is dated 2005.

The 2011 Alliant manual only has 44-40 Cowboy loads with faster burning powders and no longer shows pressure data.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40HerculesAlliant.jpg

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

Jack--

I've used 23.5 and 24.0 grains of RL-7 with SAECO #446 pretty extensively in my 1897-made '73 in 44-40, and the loads run accurately enough for deer (2"-2.25") at 100 yards from its casual-condition bore. This has been with R-P and W-W brass, and the brass shows no sign of fatigue after 4-5 loadings. I just get concerned when I see a powder maker deleting data from past listings--wondering whether ballistic anomalies are to blame, or just economics and customer preference--hence my post.

The 16.0 grains/RL-7, Rem 6-1/2, Starline brass load using Lyman #311316 @ .313" in my Marlin 94CCL beats 1873 ballistics a bit (1550-1575 FPS), but is without doubt its most accurate load to date at any velocity. Something good is going on with that combination.

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks guys. I picked up a 1lb of the yellow label yesterday but they also had new label bottles. I was wondering if the formula may have changed.

[Savvy Jack]

I went to my "library" and went through the Hercules & Alliant manuals I have.
The first (though it may not have been the 1st) manual with the 44-40 RL-7 info I have is dated 1995 and the last (though it may not have been the last) is dated 2005.

The 2011 Alliant manual only has 44-40 Cowboy loads with faster burning powders and no longer shows pressure data.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40HerculesAlliant.jpg

w30wcf


Wonder why no data for the 200gr for RL-7

[Savvy Jack]

I probably have 1,000 240gr bullets looking for something to be shot in. I just might have some fun.

Never mind...they are LSWCs!

[fouronesix]

Don't why Alliant dropped the Rel7 44-40 load data. Maybe since it is right on the edge of being too slow for most tastes.

I tried Rel7 in a 44-40 Win 92 a few years ago under the 240 gr bullet and it seemed to do fine. But since then have settled on the 200 gr traditional style bullet and 5744 for the rifles and light loads of Trailboss for the handgun.

However Rel7 is the best powder I've found for my Win 73, 32-20 under the Lyman 311316. Maybe, just enough difference in expansion ratio between the two cartridges to favor the Rel7 in the 32-20

[Savvy Jack]

Don't why Alliant dropped the Rel7 44-40 load data. Maybe since it is right on the edge of being too slow for most tastes.

I tried Rel7 in a 44-40 Win 92 a few years ago under the 240 gr bullet and it seemed to do fine. But since then have settled on the 200 gr traditional style bullet and 5744 for the rifles and light loads of Trailboss for the handgun.

However Rel7 is the best powder I've found for my Win 73, 32-20 under the Lyman 311316. Maybe, just enough difference in expansion ratio between the two cartridges to favor the Rel7 in the 32-20

Not to get off topic but I do play around with TrailBoss for my revolvers.

55420
55421

[4060MAY]

SavvyJack
Reloader 7, yellow label is made in Sweden
the early Reloader 7 had brown indicators in it, and was supposedly made in the USA, I use it in my in my 30-40, I use WC680 in the 32-20 until I run out, both are close to the same burn rate
the earlier powder seemed to burn a little cleaner, sight settings were the same to 200yds.

HTH

[Savvy Jack]

This is actually the new bottle I was referring to
55423

[fouronesix]

Here's the two types I've loaded. Used the Hercules type (can on left) primarily for 222 Rem and for certain 22 Hornet loads- until I ran out. The Alliant type (bottle on right) have been using more recently (last few years?) for several cast bullet applications ranging from 45-70 to 32-20. There may be a difference between them but I never made a direct comparison. Rel7 seems to fill a load density niche for my loads falling somewhere between 2400 and 5744.

[Savvy Jack]

As soon as I run across some 5744 and some 4227 I'm gonna get some!

[Savvy Jack]

I loaded up some test rounds a few minutes ago. Gonna head out to the range in the morning to test them out.
44240RN-4 240gr LRN 23.4gr RL7 (3-D manufactured out west somewhere)
L44A-240SWC 240gr SWC 23.4gr RL7 (Georgia Arms)
BigLube 200gr LRN 6.6gr TrailBoss

Gonna get my scope zeroed in too (Marlin 1894CB). If this all works out I am going to try some jacketed HPs 180gr and 200gr as well as Winchester 200gr JSPs I ordered yesterday. If the pressures are indeed below 15,000 I'd like to try those SWC in my small frame SAA revolver. For some reason the barrel on my large frame 44 mag likes to lead up, hard or soft lead. I'll deal with that later.

[Savvy Jack]

I shot my loads today.
23.4gr RL-7 240gr LRN 1,320fps
23.4gr RL-7 240gr SWC 1,249fps
6.6gr TrailBoss 200gr BigLube 950fps

I was not able to zero in my scope very well and forgot to bring along the bore cleaner items. After 15 shots of trailboss I just did the best I could. Started out at 25 yards and was able to adjust the scope for 1/2 groups with TrailBoss and the 200gr BigLubes. Couldn't get the 240LRN to zero in. 100yards Trailboss was not bad so I moved on up the the 240gr SCW. The SCW were able to cycle through my Marlin with no troubles. I could not tell where I hit so I shot all three without any adjustments. Later found they hit the top left corner of my 11 1/2x8 notebook paper target with a 1/2 group. Certainly worth trying again!! My 200gr JHP 2400s (did fine and I was able to hit the 200yard 14x14 gong with my last shot, shot #27 wit no bore cleaning. The problem is me not the rifle, scope or loads. I tried some 180gr JHPs with 2400 but the velocities were from 1,100 fps to 1,600 fps. I think the battery may have been dying...been in there well over a year. Lets just say I was unprepared for today!! I am happy with it and look foreword to trying it again when I have more time to zero in the scope.

To conclude I noticed that the RL-7 certainly produces less pressures than the 20grs of 2400 and the velocities were closer together than the 2400 results. I am very happy with my results with the RL-7 powder as well as the 240gr SWC.

[9.3X62AL]

Savvy Jack--

20.0 grains of 2400 is far more powder than I would run in my old '73 with the 200 grainers--14.5 grains was my top load, which gives factory-load results--in the 1100 FPS ballpark.

One factor not specifically mentioned in this thread that bore heavily on the earlier work pioneered by W30WCF and followed by me.......that the 23.0-24.0 grain loads of RL-7 provided ANOTHER benefit--powder column support for the boolit. Lyman #427098 has no crimp groove, and was designed to "ride" atop a powder column of black powder to prevent bullet telescoping as the cartridges shunted down the tubular magazine enroute to the chamber.

One of the side tracks on my route to success was to try The Holy Black behind some Lee 200 grain castings. In modern W-W cases, 35.0 grains of Goex 3F was about all I could fit into a casing under the boolit, this with about 1/10" of compression. I hand-lubed 20 bullets with SPG, crimped the cases around the boolit ogive, and tried 'em out.

Not too spectacular. The bore was fouled out by Round #5, as Round #6 installed itself sideways in the target paper at 50 yards, well off-center. Some combination of inadequate lube capacity and Goex's lackluster combustion properties turned the barrel into a crusty sewer pipe. Maybe more lube and better powder would alter these outcomes, dunno.

I secured a SAECO #446 mould soon thereafter, which includes a larger lube capacity AND a decent crimp groove along with a nose form amenable to levergun feeding needs. This boolit performs well in both the 44-40 and in the 44 Magnum Win 92 with smokeless fuels, so problems are largely over.

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack--

20.0 grains of 2400 is far more powder than I would run in my old '73 with the 200 grainers--14.5 grains was my top load, which gives factory-load results--in the 1100 FPS ballpark.

One factor not specifically mentioned in this thread that bore heavily on the earlier work pioneered by W30WCF and followed by me.......that the 23.0-24.0 grain loads of RL-7 provided ANOTHER benefit--powder column support for the boolit. Lyman #427098 has no crimp groove, and was designed to "ride" atop a powder column of black powder to prevent bullet telescoping as the cartridges shunted down the tubular magazine enroute to the chamber.

One of the side tracks on my route to success was to try The Holy Black behind some Lee 200 grain castings. In modern W-W cases, 35.0 grains of Goex 3F was about all I could fit into a casing under the boolit, this with about 1/10" of compression. I hand-lubed 20 bullets with SPG, crimped the cases around the boolit ogive, and tried 'em out.

Not too spectacular. The bore was fouled out by Round #5, as Round #6 installed itself sideways in the target paper at 50 yards, well off-center. Some combination of inadequate lube capacity and Goex's lackluster combustion properties turned the barrel into a crusty sewer pipe. Maybe more lube and better powder would alter these outcomes, dunno.

I secured a SAECO #446 mould soon thereafter, which includes a larger lube capacity AND a decent crimp groove along with a nose form amenable to levergun feeding needs. This boolit performs well in both the 44-40 and in the 44 Magnum Win 92 with smokeless fuels, so problems are largely over.

All my loads were shot through my Marlin.

23.4gr of RL-7 did not make a full case load and the was still air between powder and the base of the bullet. I could shake it and here powder tumble back and fourth.

I do have some other bullets as well,
Lyman 427098 210gr
Accurate 430210B 210gr
Accurate 430215C 215gr
NOE 432-200 217gr

All sized 429 with BP lube. I don't have any smokless lube right now.

[Savvy Jack]

Tried some RL-7 in my large frame 44-40 revolver with various bullets and its a no go which I am sure you guys already knew. between 800 and 850fps from a 7 1/2 barrel. Just not enough length to get any power. Accuracy at 50ft was icky!

[9.3X62AL]

The Marlin 94 or the Winchester 92 in 44-40 WCF provides a much wider safety margin for pressure experimentation than does the 73 Winchester. About 12 years back, I had a chance at a Marlin 94 in 44-40 NIB for $400......shoulda/woulda/coulda.

I have zero experience with the 44-40 in a revolver, but wouldn't mind having one--either a Uberti clone, or perhaps a BisHawk Ruger 44 Mag with swap cylinder. One o' these days, maybe.

[w30wcf]

......23.4gr of RL-7 did not make a full case load and the was still air between powder and the base of the bullet. I could shake it and here powder tumble back and fourth........

Jack, thank you for the range report. My newest container of RL 7 is the one with the Yellow label. Previously, I was using powder from containers with the orange label (plastic container).

23.5 grs of either powder is a capacity load with the 240 gr Magma bullet which seats deeper than the 240 gr SWC. In fact, if I don't settle the powder, the bullet will compress the powder slightly.

A month or so ago I tested a capacity load of RL 7 (yellow label) under the Lyman 427098.
Average velocity in the Marlin Cowboy 24" barrel......
Federal 150 primer - 1,442 f.p.s.
Federal 155 primer - 1,485 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

.......One of the side tracks on my route to success was to try The Holy Black behind some Lee 200 grain castings. In modern W-W cases, 35.0 grains of Goex 3F was about all I could fit into a casing under the boolit, this with about 1/10" of compression. I hand-lubed 20 bullets with SPG, crimped the cases around the boolit ogive, and tried 'em out.

Not too spectacular. The bore was fouled out by Round #5, as Round #6 installed itself sideways in the target paper at 50 yards, well off-center. Some combination of inadequate lube capacity and Goex's lackluster combustion properties turned the barrel into a crusty sewer pipe. Maybe more lube and better powder would alter these outcomes, dunno.......

Al,
Definitely a bullet that holds more lube is the answer with Goex. Even with the 427098, which holds more lube than the Lee bullet, the most rounds that I could get with Goex before the 24" barrel fouled out was 10-12. On the other hand, Swiss would run 50 rounds with the 427098 (most shot in a row) and accuracy remained 1st rate.

A couple of years ago I experimented with a larger lube capacity bullet by machining away a portion of the middle driving band on the 427098. I had tried the Mav-D "big lube" and that worked ok with Goex but I wanted a bullet that would provide better groups at extended ranges. Besides, I felt that the Mav-D held more lube than needed for the 24" trip.

The 427098 shot well at 100-300 yards so I wanted a bullet with the same nose profile but with the ideal lube capacity to run trouble free for many shots with goex. As I result of my testing I worked with Accurate Mold on the design which became the 43-215C. Thankfully, it has proven to perform as intended. :)

If you would like to try some, send me a pm. Another option would be to load 8 grs of RL7 in the case first followed by b.p.
That will keep the Goex b.p. fouling to a minimum.....

w30wcf

[Savvy Jack]

John,
I'll try a capacity load with the 427098 with CCI350 primers in my revolver and see what happens. That could push it to 900 fps and increase the accuracy.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good info above, guys. Appreciate it mucho!

I'm not likely to re-try the holy black anytime soon, John. I've had decent accuracy with SAECO #446 using smokeless, and it has more lube capacity than the Lee or the stock Lyman #427098. If I try BP again in this caliber, it will start with Swiss 3F--lead/tin alloy--and BP-specific lubes like SPG. There is a nice lube star at the muzzle after smokeless and Javelina Alox/BW are fired. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And--I ordered a Uberti Cattleman "Pasta SAA" today in 44-40.

[Savvy Jack]

9.3, can I call ya AL?

Out of about 35 targets I have logged, I can only get three to group on the bulls eye for my 44-40 revolver with smokeless. I want to see if I can get any to do that with RL7.

558115581255813

[Savvy Jack]

55995

I failed to include that I used a scope.

Hi-Lux
HPML Muzzleloader
Toby Bridges Signature Series
TB-ML39x40

[9.3X62AL]

"Al" is just fine, sir.

I'm going to run a "tale of the tape" on the Uberti's internal dimensions before doing any shooting with it, hoping to save some steps ahead of time in terms of boolit diameter vs. OEM specs. Then comes brass specs and chamber relationship, with boolit seated. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The BEST would be the ability for the carbine and the revo to share ammunition, a thing my 32-20s can't quite accomplish with best accuracy.

[w30wcf]

Jack,
Nice shooting! That looks to be a very good load with the 240 gr bullet (not for '73's though). Nice and consistant.

w30wcf

[Savvy Jack]

Jack,
Nice shooting! That looks to be a very good load with the 240 gr bullet (not for '73's though). Nice and consistant.

w30wcf


Thanks.

Correct, nothing over the 12,000 pressures to be used in my 73'

[9.3X62AL]

Just looking through these 44-40 threads again tonight, since I snag the 44-40 Pasta Colta tomorrow morning. This will be fun.

[Savvy Jack]

One thing I have noticed about my Uberti revolvers is that the cylinder walls are not smooth. When the pressures begin to go up, the cylinder wall rings begin to be seen on the brass. I'll try and post some photos. No deformations, just something like a smudge ring.

[Fotis]

What is the best primer to use with RL-7 loads in the 1873??????

[9.3X62AL]

What is the best primer to use with RL-7 loads in the 1873??????

I have used CCI 300 (Large Pistol) in both the levergun and wheelgun. No issues with priming.

[Outpost75]

Here are some 100-yard targets from my Marlin 1894S with 38" twist Microgroove barrel in .44-40.
Also some 25-yard revolver targets with 43-230G and same charge. There is some unburned powder when using RL7 in the revolver, but velocities are normal and the loads shoot well. I use Starline cases and Winchester LP primers with bullets sized to .430".

190084190085
190089
190086190088190087

[Fotis]

I have used CCI 300 (Large Pistol) in both the levergun and wheelgun. No issues with priming.

Thank you!

[Savvy Jack]

A capacity load of Reloader 7 under the historical 215 gr. 427098 bullet in the .44-40 24" barrel tripped the screens at an average velocity of 1,367 f.p.s. with very good accuracy.

w30wcf

I have discovered that 25gr of current productions of RL is a case capacity load for both my 43-210B and Hornady 240gr SWC-HP.

23gr produced an avg 1,337 fps out of my 24" Marlin
25gr produces and avg of 1,425 fps

Ironically the seating depth of the Hornady 240gr SWC-HP is about the same as the 43-210B so 25gr is also a case capacity load.

25gr and 240gr bullet = 1,425 fps......just over max psi
25gr and 210gr bullet = 1,424 fps......just under max psi

I said I was done with RL-7 testing but I think I will try both loads now at 100 yards at some point in the future.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess I look at like this. If I had a bunch of re7 I couldn't find a proper use for I might try it. But I sure wouldn't go buy it specifically for the 4440 or any handgun. Just doesn't make economic sense to use re7 when you can get the same results with half the charge weight of unique ect. Great powder in the35 rem 3030 444 and 4570 though.

[Savvy Jack]

The whole purpose is to replicate full case/low pressure curve loads....and for me.....the original style bullet sits on top of the powder so it does not telescope back into the case while inside the rifle magazine. The Lyman 427098 does not have a crimp grove and is crimped over the forward driving band. Only keeps the bullet from coming out, not backing in. To make you cringe even more, only about 65% of the powder is burned :-) It is also about using slower (I didn't say slow) burning rifle powders rather than faster pistol powders and taking a chance on a double charge and blowing up the fine firearm. The other reason is to be able to use the Lyman 310 hand tool "in the field" and not have to worry about poor crimps...refer to my first sentence. The 240gr bullet is perfect for this application. For the Marlin, no measuring tool needed....fill the case so the bullet slips in by hand to the crimping desired depth and crimp. Technically I don't even need the bullet seating plug. Just the expander and crimp. SOOOooooooo many options so little time.

Who said money was a concern? ;-)

[9.3X62AL]

Savvy Jack sums up the rationale for Re-7 usage in this application (and in 32/20 WCF as well)--no crimp groove in either #427098 or in #311008, so the bullet seats against the powder column to resist "telescoping" during the shunting movement through the tube mag of a levergun--a crimp can wrapped around the bullet ogive to secure it in place against creep-out during revolver recoil. SAECO's crimp groove in #446 solved Lyman's design flaws, or at least acknowledged that black powder has smokeless competition--120 years along.

[Savvy Jack]

yeap....I also have the 43-215C which is a replica of the 427098 but has a crimp groove and large lube groove if one chooses to use black powder.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png

209069
209070


Accurate 43-215C - Being a traditionalist, I decided that I wanted a bullet that would exactly match the original .44-40 bullet nose profile and would carry enough lube for the 24” trip many times accurately using standard Goex black powder. In addition, I had found that the original nose profile is best for down range accuracy (100+ yards) which is one of the things I like to do.~w30wcf
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey&p=3088182&viewfull=1#post3088182

[Outpost75]

A couple bullets I've been using in both the .44 Magnum and the .44-40 are Accurate 43-230G and 43-230EB.

209085209086

The 230G is a double-crimp-groove design which enables you to seat the bullet out in the .44 Special, or Ruger .44 Magnums to exploit their greater cylinder length to get greater case capacity. The 230EB is based on John's proven 43-215C design, but as bevel base added to bump the weight up a bit. I've gotten good accuracy with this bullet using 33-35 grains of Goex 3Fg and Confederate Army Lube" which is equal parts of Goya Manteca (unsalted filtered lard) and beeswax.

Ditto on the 24-25 grains of current RL7 for both bullets, depending on seating depth and case capacity.

209084 209087

At left, a ten-shot, 100-yard group with Marlin and hunting scope. At right a 5-shot group fired with simple open sights, .44-40 Rossi with 43-230EB and black powder.

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks for chiming in Outpost....I was beginning to feel like I was in a ghost town.

[Savvy Jack]

Ya know I think I still have some left over you sent me several years ago, I will look and load some up if I do.

[Savvy Jack]

209118

25gr RL-7 Accurate Mold 43-215C
Melted, cast, sized, lubed and loaded all in a snowy North Carolina afternoon!!!

[Savvy Jack]

209123
Accurate Mold

43-230G left and the 43-215C right

[Savvy Jack]

So many loads, so little time!!!

209135

[NorthMoccasin]

Al, 3.0 5744 under 26.5 Goex FFG shoots all day clean with the Lyman 427098 in my 1894 marlin.. It is a fun load to shoot and will usually stay in 1.5" at 50 yds. I use lyman gold lube but SPG works as well

[Savvy Jack]

By almost accident today I almost replicated Doc Pardee's 1875 30 shot 4" Group at 110 yards but with smokeless. Well almost

For the full story, click here: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2018/03/19/44-40-Range-Report-19-March-2018


Using Acme Bullet Company's 200gr hard cast .430 lead bullet, I inadvertently grouped 14 shots into a 4" circle at 100 yards. After a few shots (from group 1) I made a slight scope adjustment and shot group 2. I superimposed both groups on a sheet of paper and got the following results.

216706216707

28gr Reloder 7 1,556fps avg. (+P loads) Marlin 1894CB
(Not intended for Winchester 73' type rifles and revolvers)

Doc Pardee's group is much tighter so 15 more shots from my loads could make the group bigger or even smaller!! We all know he used Black Powder..........I was using hot smokeless loads

[ajjohns]

Has anyone tried this powder with psb as a filler? I say because my 73 Winchester, 38WCF has an oversize neck. I've been using it with IMR 4227 and great results. Works in my gun with no pressure signs at all and shoots very accurate. Maybe NOT yours, start careful. Just a thought for another possible powder I'd like to try.

[Pioneer2]

I just returned from the range and was shooting a Win 1892 44-40 with a new .4286 barrel 1-28 twist .Half the range was underwater so 50 meters will have to do.A 24gr dose of RE#7 /Win brass /Win LP primer under a 220gr FN .430 cut .680 for 3 shots off the bench.Velocity unknown but likely around 1400fps from a 24" pipe. A load of 25 + 23gr was acceptable but this is the sweet spot.

[Savvy Jack]

I just returned from the range and was shooting a Win 1892 44-40 with a new .4286 barrel 1-28 twist .Half the range was underwater so 50 meters will have to do.A 24gr dose of RE#7 /Win brass /Win LP primer under a 220gr FNGC .430 cut .680 for 3 shots off the bench.Velocity unknown but likely around 1400fps from a 24" pipe. A load of 25 + 23gr was acceptable but this is the sweet spot.

great news to hear!!!! Hey, what bullet mold is that from?

[indian joe]

great news to hear!!!! Hey, what bullet mold is that from?

I just read through this thread from way back to now - duplicating blackpowder ballistics with full case loads of RE7 ---etc etc etc ----have you blokes not heard of blackpowder ?? We can get it in the back end of Aussieland - cant be that hard to find !!! so whats going on ? Seems also that nobody has heard of duplex loading ? or is that a taboo subject for some reason - cant be a safety issue! its a heck of a lot safer deal than foolin round with off patent smokeyless loads ----3 grains of 4227 under the black in small cases and 5 grains in 45-70 size brass - it will get about 100fps increase over the straight black - with half decent lube boolits you can shoot all day without fouling out - works ok in 73 actions and on up. ......Or is this just a lot of guys chasing their tail in order to avoid cleaning their gun at the end of a days shooting???? I feel like I missed something in the translation here.

[Savvy Jack]

Since you quoted me....I will reply


I just read through this thread from way back to now - duplicating blackpowder ballistics with full case loads of RE7 ---etc etc etc ----


have you blokes not heard of blackpowder ??
Why yes, yes we have!!


We can get it in the back end of Aussieland - cant be that hard to find !!!
Good for you! Good stuff!!


so whats going on ? Seems also that nobody has heard of duplex loading ? or is that a taboo subject for some reason- cant be a safety issue!
Probably don't hear much about it because folks either don't do it or don't talk about it....just like everything else, screw up, forget what step you're on, have a brain fart and it can become disastrous.


its a heck of a lot safer deal than foolin round with off patent smokeyless loads ----3 grains of 4227 under the black in small cases and 5 grains in 45-70 size brass - it will get about 100fps increase over the straight black
Glad that works for ya!


- with half decent lube boolits you can shoot all day without fouling out - works ok in 73 actions and on up.
Nice to know


......Or is this just a lot of guys chasing their tail in order to avoid cleaning their gun at the end of a days shooting????
This topic is about Reloader 7, not black powder....if you want to learn about hitting steel targets with black powder out to 300 meters, visit this link:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey same author as this topic

If you want more information about what John knew about black powder and the 44-40, look here:
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/john-kort


I feel like I missed something in the translation here.
Yeap, you missed the entire point or could certainly be a translation problem

The whole point of using Reloader 7 in the 44-40 is to be able to use a smokeless load rather than black powder and get equal to or better performance. As can be seen from the links I posted, black powder is not the only option to get original black powder performance from this great cartridge. Hope that translates!!!!!

[Pioneer2]

The mold used by a commercial caster was NOE ............not sure which one?

[indian joe]

Since you quoted me....I will reply




Yeap, you missed the entire point or could certainly be a translation problem

The whole point of using Reloader 7 in the 44-40 is to be able to use a smokeless load rather than black powder and get equal to or better performance. As can be seen from the links I posted, black powder is not the only option to get original black powder performance from this great cartridge. Hope that translates!!!!!

Jack - seein you enjoyed dismembering my last post - maybe you would like another go.
I wasnt picking on you just hit quote instead of reply - anyway - you missed the point of my post. I get the aim of what is doing here just am honestly curious as to what drives so many guys to take so much trouble to not use black powder - theres a long list of possibilities - most of em we could cross off easily - particularly when we insert the caveat of equal performance - incidentally I like RE7 - used it to good effect in a 375 Big Bore and recently in 32/20 and 357 mag in lever guns.

[Savvy Jack]

Jack - seein you enjoyed dismembering my last post - maybe you would like another go.
I wasnt picking on you just hit quote instead of reply - anyway - you missed the point of my post. I get the aim of what is doing here just am honestly curious as to what drives so many guys to take so much trouble to not use black powder - theres a long list of possibilities - most of em we could cross off easily - particularly when we insert the caveat of equal performance - incidentally I like RE7 - used it to good effect in a 375 Big Bore and recently in 32/20 and 357 mag in lever guns.

Whether your reply was directed at me or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was somewhat condescending. I never missed the point of your reply, I never read anything anywhere in this 3 page (now 4) topic that gave me the inclination that someone was simply trying avoid using black powder. Incidentally when I shot CAS at my local club, I was the only one that used it ;-)
For me......I enjoy black powder, I enjoy replicating history...."been there done that". The key word here is ENJOY! Do what makes you happy and let other people do what makes them happy. One reason I quit CAS was because I was always given a hard time because I did use the stuff.

OPTIONS! Looking in to what works and what doesnt, it's a hobby. If you are not interested, move on along. If you enjoy reading about black powder and the 44-40, check out this website: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

[Savvy Jack]

Indian Joe,

I am sure I probably posted this someone on this forum but........

"Today's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.

Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest
217015


#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1/34' to 3 3/4" Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2" Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI......Not for Winchester 73 type rifles
#181 - Buffalo Bore 200gr Hard cast/10.gr of something, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI
#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI".......Not for Winchester 73 type rifles

The first purpose of this session was not to do everything I could to not use black powder. It was to show how neutered modern factory smokeless loads really are. Buffalo Bore factory ammunition is the ONLY factory ammunition that replicates original black powder ballistics of 1,300fps WITH 100 YARD ACCURACY and they have only been manufacturing this ammunition since December 2017.

The second purpose was to replicate the original 1,500fps "High Velocity" factory smokeless loads of 1903 - 1950 or so, designed for the "Winchester 92'" and Marlin 94' ("not to be used in 73's or pistols"). I achieved both the 1,300fps velocities as well as the HV 1,500fps velocities and both with great accuracy out to 100 yards....the rifle and ammo are much more accurate than I am ;-)

John Kort has already proven the black powder loads by shooting and hitting 7 consecutive targets at 300 meters. https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2011/10/26/Black-Powder-44-40-300-meters
We already know what the black powder loads did back in the day and what black powder loads do today. John's original post was also to show that there is a "rifle powder" out there that does work well in all firearms and even adds the option of the 240gr lead bullet that offers 10%-20% more power and is safe for all firearms chambered for the 44-40. https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2012/07/06/10-20-Higher-Performance-In-A-Winchester-73
I followed up his topic by pushing it up to High Velocity replications....although he has done so many times: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2009/03/09/44-HV-Replication-Loads-of-Yesteryear

[indian joe]

Whether your reply was directed at me or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was somewhat condescending. I never missed the point of your reply, I never read anything anywhere in this 3 page (now 4) topic that gave me the inclination that someone was simply trying avoid using black powder. Incidentally when I shot CAS at my local club, I was the only one that used it ;-)
For me......I enjoy black powder, I enjoy replicating history...."been there done that". The key word here is ENJOY! Do what makes you happy and let other people do what makes them happy. One reason I quit CAS was because I was always given a hard time because I did use the stuff.

OPTIONS! Looking in to what works and what doesnt, it's a hobby. If you are not interested, move on along. If you enjoy reading about black powder and the 44-40, check out this website: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

Jack - first thanks for your patience - it is appreciated.
I had no idea commercial ammo has been so watered down - have not bought loaded 44/40 ammo since I dont know when - Dominion in the old days was good ammo - the proper winchester stuff was too - have had a 44/40 since the late 1960/s - and for a while there I loaded that one quite hot - forget the details but would have been in the 1800fps region according to the books - early days we loaded Nobels revolver No 1 , then an IMR ball powder which deteriorated in storage , then 4227 , later I loaded some with RE7 (just plinker loads 16 grains) had a repro colt pistol for a while and that used 7 grains of AP70 - seems like enough in a handgun but is a quiet plinker load in an 1866 rifle,

Have some blackpowder chrono results here for interest (or not)
225 grain cast 36 gr Goex 5FA = 1155 with 43 spread
225 grain cast 36 gr wano PPP = 1050 with 37 spread (did I tellya I dont like Wano)
225 grain cast 36 grain Homebrew = 1209 with 62 spread
later ...................
200 grain cast 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 with 37 spread
200 grain cast 36.5 grain FFFg homebrew = 1288 with 49 spread
200 grain cast 39 grain CTGno 3 homebrew = 1339 with 31 spread
225 grain cast 36.5 grain Goex 5FA = 1165 with 45 spread
By loading more carefully I believe the shot to shot would come down - but I am not shooting these past 100yards at this point
Duplex load of 3 grains 4227 would likely lift velocity by about 80 to 100fps .. I have not used it in the 44/40 but did so in my 45/75 to use up some dirty burning chinese powder . I dont have chrono numbers for any of the earlier smokeless loads

[Outpost75]

Here is some velocity data for factory .44-40 loads I've tested:

.44-40 Factory and Group 2*(+P) loads fired in two Ruger Vaqueros, with 19.5" H&R Single Shot rifle for comparison:

Hand loads assembled in fireformed and resized Starline brass with Remington 2-1/2 primers.

Load Description_________Ruger 5-1/2"______Ruger 7-1/2"____H&R 19.5"Backpack Bunny Gun”

-------------------------------Cyl.Gap 0.003"-------Cyl.Gap 0.002"---------Solid barrel

Rem-UMC 200 JSP___________n/f___________1017, 16 Sd______1231, 19 Sd___Pre WW2 factory Balloon Head

R-P 200-gr. JSP____________872, 24 Sd_______942, 21 Sd_______1159, 29 Sd___1960s, Bridgeport, CT production

R-P 200-gr. JSP____________867, 13 Sd_______920, 19 Sd_______1106, 32 Sd___Current Lonoke, AR production

W-W 200-gr. JSP___________856, 19 Sd_______886, 29 Sd_______1105, 25 Sd___Current East Alton, IL production

Rem .427” 200 JSP 24.5 RL7__902, 31 Sd_______1044, 24 Sd______1232, 30 Sd___Safe in Winchester 1873

*43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2 BE__997, 10 Sd_______1052, 9 Sd_______1199, 6 Sd__ +P, 1.60" OAL crimped top groove

*200LFN WW .430" 18#2400_1215, 57Sd______1373, 41Sd_______1577, 22Sd___+P Magma design.

*43-230EB 1:30 24.5 RL7____1127, 28Sd______1252, 32 Sd______1439, 25Sd___+P John Kort Design

ColMeanV (gain) FPS-----------977-(REF)-----1061 (+84 over 5-1/2")-----1256 ( +195 over 7-1/2")

[Savvy Jack]

Jack - first thanks for your patience - it is appreciated.
I had no idea commercial ammo has been so watered down - have not bought loaded 44/40 ammo since I dont know when - Dominion in the old days was good ammo - the proper winchester stuff was too - have had a 44/40 since the late 1960/s - and for a while there I loaded that one quite hot - forget the details but would have been in the 1800fps region according to the books - early days we loaded Nobels revolver No 1 , then an IMR ball powder which deteriorated in storage , then 4227 , later I loaded some with RE7 (just plinker loads 16 grains) had a repro colt pistol for a while and that used 7 grains of AP70 - seems like enough in a handgun but is a quiet plinker load in an 1866 rifle,

Have some blackpowder chrono results here for interest (or not)
225 grain cast 36 gr Goex 5FA = 1155 with 43 spread
225 grain cast 36 gr wano PPP = 1050 with 37 spread (did I tellya I dont like Wano)
225 grain cast 36 grain Homebrew = 1209 with 62 spread
later ...................
200 grain cast 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 with 37 spread
200 grain cast 36.5 grain FFFg homebrew = 1288 with 49 spread
200 grain cast 39 grain CTGno 3 homebrew = 1339 with 31 spread
225 grain cast 36.5 grain Goex 5FA = 1165 with 45 spread
By loading more carefully I believe the shot to shot would come down - but I am not shooting these past 100yards at this point
Duplex load of 3 grains 4227 would likely lift velocity by about 80 to 100fps .. I have not used it in the 44/40 but did so in my 45/75 to use up some dirty burning chinese powder . I dont have chrono numbers for any of the earlier smokeless loads

Joe, I thank you for your patience as well!!! I am eager to learn about what information you have to offer!!!!

Those are some great velocities with both the 225gr and 200gr bullets!!!
Here is a short blog I wrote up about the revolver and watered down factory loads with links to one of 30wcf's and outpost75's articles.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/the-rifles-companion

[Savvy Jack]

Outpost75,

regarding that Magma bullet...seems to be the mold many factory manufactures like Oregon Trail, Acme, Hunter's Supply and Meister uses in their mass productions as well as what Buffalo Bore uses in their new "Heavy" loads. Can you shed some light on that mold?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75,

regarding that Magma bullet...seems to be the mold many factory manufactures like Oregon Trail, Acme, Hunter's Supply and Meister uses in their mass productions as well as what Buffalo Bore uses in their new "Heavy" loads. Can you shed some light on that mold?

Drawing is on the Magma web site.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a fairly long association with both the 44/40 and the 32/20 WCF calibers. One thing that I keep in the back of my mind when discussing these calibers is a factoid that the late Frank Barnes wrote in an early edition of his great Cartridges Of The World--that there are a number of calibers that did not make the transition from black powder to smokeless powder as gracefully as others have. IIRC, he said this specifically about the 45 Colt--but more than implied it in his discussions of the hyphenated Winchester levergun/revolver calibers as well.

The black powders we use today are not of the high quality and ballistic yield that the powders of the 1890s could develop. A few premium black powders get close, but still fall a bit short. One other factor at play is modern brass of solid-head design--the old balloon-head cases could hold more black powder that their modern counterparts. "More boiler room" = "More steam", especially if you completely fill that space with propellant.

The calculus has to change when you intend to use smokeless powders in an older arm designed around black powder pressure development. John Kort's extensive testing of 100%-density loads of RL-7 sold me on the idea on its use as a substitute for black powder VOLUME FOR VOLUME in 32/20 and 44/40 loads fired in vintage or repro 1880s/1890s designs. Velocities are very close to what has been claimed for the black powder loads traditionally, and accuracy had been acceptable.

The rationale has been to use the Lyman traditional bullet designs as they were intended--seated upon a column of powder creating safe and useful pressures while shunting down a rifle's magazine tube and crimped over the ogival curve to prevent outward "bullet telescoping" when fired in wheelguns. IME, the procedure excels at this tasking--though powder costs are increased significantly. A 1-pound flask of Alliant RL-7 costs about the same price as a 1-pounder of Alliant 2400; with RL-7 you are using almost twice the weight of powder per shot as you would with 2400. We all have different priorities.

[Savvy Jack]

great input 62AL,

Here are some tests results I got from using 2400 in my revolvers.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/high-velocity-loads

[indian joe]

Joe, I thank you for your patience as well!!! I am eager to learn about what information you have to offer!!!!

Those are some great velocities with both the 225gr and 200gr bullets!!!
Here is a short blog I wrote up about the revolver and watered down factory loads with links to one of 30wcf's and outpost75's articles.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/the-rifles-companion

Jack I enjoyed the blog! had a armi san marco (EMF) 1873 colt repro 5 1/2 inch barrel in 44/40 back last century - they took it off me in the howard buyback - it was a fine shooter straight out of the box - I had to cut the front sight some to get it on line and backed the mainspring off to ease the trigger pull - used to shoot the 225 grain CBE boolit over 7 grains of AP70 - OR a full case of black - 36.5 grains of GOEX 5FA - never chronoed either (dint have my chrono then) -- when I got the news it was being confiscated I took it and a load of ammo to pistol club and shot till I was sick of it - had cleaned it and was half packed up when the club captain wandered into the range area - idly stated hed never shot one of those - now I am a D grade hack and this guy has won every club aggregate there is - I offered him the gun - he took three boolits - I said fill it up theres plenty ammo - no three will do - anyway he let one go (blackpowder round) - "man ! this thing kicks!" - nah its only a 44/40 - shot the other two off - cleared the gun - thanked me - off he went - I finished packing up - thought no more about it really. There was a young feller there had been hangin out talking while I put my stuff away (think he liked the look of the cowboy gun) and we went forward to pull down the remaining targets - so mr club captain had shot on a clean target and both of us were lookin at it as we approached - I pulled up about five feet short and looked across at my young compadre - he is grinning like the cat that got the cheese - what? - he says "no holes!"- ahh you seen it too, funny thing about that - I grinned back at him "dont tell anybody but I am gonna enjoy this for a long time!" .....he musta been scairt of that ole cowboy pistol - clean missed three outa three.

[Savvy Jack]

Jack I enjoyed the blog! had a armi san marco (EMF) 1873 colt repro 5 1/2 inch barrel in 44/40 back last century - they took it off me in the howard buyback - it was a fine shooter straight out of the box - I had to cut the front sight some to get it on line and backed the mainspring off to ease the trigger pull - used to shoot the 225 grain CBE boolit over 7 grains of AP70 - OR a full case of black - 36.5 grains of GOEX 5FA - never chronoed either (dint have my chrono then) -- when I got the news it was being confiscated I took it and a load of ammo to pistol club and shot till I was sick of it - had cleaned it and was half packed up when the club captain wandered into the range area - idly stated hed never shot one of those - now I am a D grade hack and this guy has won every club aggregate there is - I offered him the gun - he took three boolits - I said fill it up theres plenty ammo - no three will do - anyway he let one go (blackpowder round) - "man ! this thing kicks!" - nah its only a 44/40 - shot the other two off - cleared the gun - thanked me - off he went - I finished packing up - thought no more about it really. There was a young feller there had been hangin out talking while I put my stuff away (think he liked the look of the cowboy gun) and we went forward to pull down the remaining targets - so mr club captain had shot on a clean target and both of us were lookin at it as we approached - I pulled up about five feet short and looked across at my young compadre - he is grinning like the cat that got the cheese - what? - he says "no holes!"- ahh you seen it too, funny thing about that - I grinned back at him "dont tell anybody but I am gonna enjoy this for a long time!" .....he musta been scairt of that ole cowboy pistol - clean missed three outa three.

lol, now thats funny!!!

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=9.3X62AL;4329061]I have a fairly long association with both the 44/40 and the 32/20 WCF calibers. One thing that I keep in the back of my mind when discussing these calibers is a factoid that the late Frank Barnes wrote in an early edition of his great Cartridges Of The World--that there are a number of calibers that did not make the transition from black powder to smokeless powder as gracefully as others have. IIRC, he said this specifically about the 45 Colt--but more than implied it in his discussions of the hyphenated Winchester levergun/revolver calibers as well.

The black powders we use today are not of the high quality and ballistic yield that the powders of the 1890s could develop. A few premium black powders get close, but still fall a bit short. One other factor at play is modern brass of solid-head design--the old balloon-head cases could hold more black powder that their modern counterparts. "More boiler room" = "More steam", especially if you completely fill that space with propellant.

How much more steam???

200 grain cast + 40 grain FFFg homebrew = 1355 FPS

I think thats right up there with the old stuff - What about Swiss ?

Getting the charge into modern cases is problematic - gotta lean on it hard - some cases just will not take it! ... but were they tellin the truth back then either? 38/55 ? the only way you might get 55 grains of blackpowder in that case is leave the boolit out!!

I have shot almost 100yr old Curtiss and Harveys powder - it was ranked as the best English - shot about like Wano velocity but much cleaner in the gun - I think that is maybe the big difference to modern blackpowder

[9.3X62AL]

No tries with WANO or Old Eynsford (yet) in the 44/40 or 32/20.

In Starline cases I can get about 37.0 grains of Swiss 3F into a 44/40 casing, then compress the daylights out of it with a 41 Magnum expander die spud used as a compression die. In my '73 Winchester using 30/1 lead/tin SAECO #446 I got 1275-1290 FPS, and just under 2" groups at 50 yards. I would happily hunt deer with that assembly.

In Starline 32/20 casings, 18.0 grains/Swiss 3F was compressed enough to enable bullet seating with Lyman #311008. From the Marlin 94CCL, these shot OK, about 2.75" at 50 yards (this rifle does a LOT better with other loads) and velocities barely exceeded 1200 FPS.

Bottom line--a full case of RL-7 is a lot less work to assemble--load--and clean up afterwards.

[Savvy Jack]

This morning I had an enjoyable shoot!!!

100 Yards
4" Circle

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/accuracy-at-100-yards

217548 217549 217550

[9.3X62AL]

A venison-maker of the first order!

[CamoWhamo]

Today I tested and chronographed a load consisting of 25gn of Reloader 7 behind an Accurate Molds 43-200F.

The rifle is a new Miroku made Winchester 92. Bore slugs at .431. Bullets were sized to .431 also.

Velocity averaged 1263fps in the 20" barrel.

They had noticably more "pop" to them compared to my regular load of 8.5gn Unique which delivers almost identical velocity.

There wasn't as much unburnt powder as i was expecting. Quickload predicts only 60% powder burn but there was only a few powder kernels left over in some of the empty cases and the bore had a small amount but considerably less than a local powder i have tried before (with a burn rate close to IMR4756 and Herco).

[Savvy Jack]

Today I tested and chronographed a load consisting of 25gn of Reloader 7 behind an Accurate Molds 43-200F.

The rifle is a new Miroku made Winchester 92. Bore slugs at .431. Bullets were sized to .431 also.

Velocity averaged 1263fps in the 20" barrel.

They had noticably more "pop" to them compared to my regular load of 8.5gn Unique which delivers almost identical velocity.

There wasn't as much unburnt powder as i was expecting. Quickload predicts only 60% powder burn but there was only a few powder kernels left over in some of the empty cases and the bore had a small amount but considerably less than a local powder i have tried before (with a burn rate close to IMR4756 and Herco).

How did they group?

[CamoWhamo]

How did they group?

I'd say reasonably well. I was shooting at an indoor range with poor lighting so i wasn't shooting as well as i can. They grouped about 2.5" at 25 yards, inside the '9' ring of a large pistol target.
I'm still trying different bullets in this rifle to find what it likes. I've tried the Lee 200gn RNFP and this Accurate 43-200F. I have a Saeco #446 and Accurate 43-220C on the way.

I've spent hours in Quickload searching for the slowest powder that gives good case fill and 100% burn. The medium pistol powders should achieve this but my test results show otherwise. Poor velocities and lots of unburnt powder everywhere.
By Quickload's calculations, RE7 is a poor choice but it worked very well. Enough to convince me that it's worth spending some more time developing some loads.

[hockeynick39]

Size them puppies to .432 or .433, might get better groups!!!!!

[Savvy Jack]

I'd say reasonably well. I was shooting at an indoor range with poor lighting so i wasn't shooting as well as i can. They grouped about 2.5" at 25 yards, inside the '9' ring of a large pistol target.
I'm still trying different bullets in this rifle to find what it likes. I've tried the Lee 200gn RNFP and this Accurate 43-200F. I have a Saeco #446 and Accurate 43-220C on the way.

I've spent hours in Quickload searching for the slowest powder that gives good case fill and 100% burn. The medium pistol powders should achieve this but my test results show otherwise. Poor velocities and lots of unburnt powder everywhere.
By Quickload's calculations, RE7 is a poor choice but it worked very well. Enough to convince me that it's worth spending some more time developing some loads.


Yeap, as you can see from my groups, it does work well. It takes time to find that sweet combo. Using RL-7 is not saving money...thats for sure. BUT...I have achieved my best groups with it at 100 yards. No chance of a double charge. When I load a full charge, the bullet sits on top of the powder and there is no chance of the bullet telescoping back into the case from the mag tube spring tension and a weak crimp mainly from smaller diameter bullets.

My two "go-to" powders are RL-7 and Unique. I use both in revolvers and rifles.

[Outpost75]

If unable to find RL7, the same volume to fill the case with 1/8" compression using either IMR or H4198 also works well in the STRONG actioned rifles, Marlin 1894, Winchester 92, Eibar El Tigre, and Rossi clones, as well as the Ruger Vaquero and S&W 544, but NOT for Winchester 1873s, Colt SAA or clones.

[Walks]

I'm curious why so many folks have so much trouble with crimping the #42798 bullet over small charges of powder that don't fill the case. I never have a problem. I also use the Magma 225gr bullet, crimping it AHEAD of the crimping groove to get a short enough O.A.L. to get 14rds into the magazine of my 30+yr old UBERTI 1873 Rifle. The Magma .428/225gr bullet was a fortunate buy, a gun shop closed and they were left over from a special order from a fellow Cowboy Shooter who unfortunately passed before he could pick them up. $500 for 20,000 bullets. This was way back when you could buy 500 bullets for $20.
It still bothers me a bit to "profit" from another Cowboy's passing.
I never have bullets "telescope" back into the cases in the mag.
I think my lack of problems can be traced directly to the OLD set of LYMAN black box dies made in the early 1960's.
And I seat & crimp at the same time.
I don't know why this die crimps the way it does, but I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.
It works just as well in my other .44WCF Rifles, Carbines & Handguns.

[Hootmix]

Old thread ,but new interest,, I'm using the same bullet mould as Walks ( lyman # 427098 ) mine cast out at .217gn. w/ 11-12 bhn . From what i'm reading I can use 23.7 + - grs. of H-4198 in my Rossi 92 44/40 w/ 20" barrel ,,, that's up to the base of " bullet's ". " 75 " says " fill the case " ??? I shoot H-4198 in my 40/60 w/200gr. cast , very ,very accurate ( 100 yds. ) . I also seat and crimp at the same time( RCBS 3- die set ). Would like to know about how far ya'll are shooting .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[Savvy Jack]

Pending "numbers" entered into Quickload using 23.7gr of IMR-4198

(For conversation use only)

Bullet Length - .640
Case Length - 1.297
AOL - 1.582
Weight -217gr
H2O - 41.20 case volume

Quickload Program Results
23.7gr = 17,439 PSI (CIP)
MAX = 15,954 PSI (CIP)

"Should Be" fine in the 92'

NOTE***
SAAMI's MAX TESTING METHOD PRESSURES
CUP Max = 13,000
PSI Max = 11,000

CIP's MAX TESTING METHOD PRESSURE
PSI MAX = 15,954

[Outpost75]

If you get a chance, try running the simulation again at 22 grs. of IMR4198. I've shot that load with good results.

[Hootmix]

Hey Savvy ,, sorry don't know Quickload Program ,,, my AOL is running at 1.590-.593 ( 44/40 ) ,, so to stay within MAX Pressure do you recommend I back-up maybe 3-4 grs. ??? I really like the way my 40/60 works w/ H-4198 ( 27.6grs. ) ,, lite recoil ,, so far 100 yds. is the longest i'v shot so far ,, would like to use some 240grs, in both rifles ,, if feasible .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[Hootmix]

75 ,, I don't shoot SASS ,, just paper or steel plates ,, I started to just load 22grs. I have loaded 5 rds. w/ 23.7 of H-4198 to try , and 5 w/ 6.9 of Trail Boss ,, sized to .428 hope to get to shoot tomorrow . Thank's for the help ,, both you and Savvy .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[Savvy Jack]

I always recommend staying inside MAX pressure but......I seldom do...."so yes, back off a few gr." 23.0gr should drop pressures to 15,550 pending actual measurements. 23gr should not be enough to touch the bullet base so make sure you have good tight neck retention and a good crimp.

I need all measurements listed to be somewhat accurate but yours will get me close.

I loaded up 6 rounds of H-4198 but the input measurements are the same so I just upload in IMR-4198 data. H-4198 usually runs a tad hotter than IMR-4198 with these loads according to Quickload.

My loads of H-4198 took 26gr to touch the bullet base of the 427098 in order to crimp right on the top edge of the driving band but not over the top of the driving band as one normally does. That load should be 22,202 PSI CIP (22,047 for IMR) and I run it in my Marlin.


Outpost, using the same basic measurements and using 22.0gr of IMR-4198.....we are looking at about 13,500 PSI CIP, well below CIP max pressures. Quickload also shows that only about 47% of the powder is burned....typical for rifle powders.

USE AT OWN RISK

DO NOT USE IN REVOLVERS OR CATEGORY I RIFLES SUCH AS THE WINCHESTER 73' yadda yadda yadda

[Hootmix]

Savvy went out to shop took measurements ( just to be sure ). I crimp same place ,, top edge ,,.

Bullet Length- .638
case length- 1.295
OAL length- 1.592
Wright - .217grs.
H20 ??

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[Hootmix]

Finally !!! slipped off to the local shooting hole ,, shooting a Rossi src 20" barrel . I think the reason their called shooting " ranges " ( at least for me today ) is because my shot's ranged all over the place !!

5rds. 217grs. .428 dia. 23.7 grs. of H4198 ,, shot 12" low @ 100yds. TOO STOUT !! excess powder in barrel

5 rds. 217grs. " 23.0 grs. " "" raised back sight to 4th notch raised shot to center ,, ex-powder in barrel .
4rds. " " 6.9 grs. TB ( 100yds. ) on center .NO powder in barrel !!
1 rd. " " " " " ( 50 yds. ) Bulls eye ( only one of the day ) NO powder in barrel .
7rds. 200grs. " 7.1grs. " ( 100yds ) on center ( no bulls ) No powder in barrel

Savvy ,, 23.7 I believe was just a little to stout ,, for me ,, will try 22grs. next time. The H-4198 also left powder in my 40/60 w/ 200gr. bullet's.
Have read all of this thread and RL-7 is starting to get my attention ,, .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[Savvy Jack]

Finally !!! slipped off to the local shooting hole ,, shooting a Rossi src 20" barrel . I think the reason their called shooting " ranges " ( at least for me today ) is because my shot's ranged all over the place !!

5rds. 217grs. .428 dia. 23.7 grs. of H4198 ,, shot 12" low @ 100yds. TOO STOUT !! excess powder in barrel

5 rds. 217grs. " 23.0 grs. " "" raised back sight to 4th notch raised shot to center ,, ex-powder in barrel .
4rds. " " 6.9 grs. TB ( 100yds. ) on center .NO powder in barrel !!
1 rd. " " " " " ( 50 yds. ) Bulls eye ( only one of the day ) NO powder in barrel .
7rds. 200grs. " 7.1grs. " ( 100yds ) on center ( no bulls ) No powder in barrel

Savvy ,, 23.7 I believe was just a little to stout ,, for me ,, will try 22grs. next time. The H-4198 also left powder in my 40/60 w/ 200gr. bullet's.
Have read all of this thread and RL-7 is starting to get my attention ,, .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Glad you got a chance to try it out.

Using rifle powders in the 44-40 is not cost effective "powder for powder". I did mention above, I think, that only abouy 40% of the powder is burned. The use of rifle powders is not exactly the "efficient" way to go. I simply just like using rifle powder in a rifle cartridge for both rifle and revolver. ;-)

I did get to the range this morning. Was able to shoot 26gr of H4198 in both rifle @75 yards and revolver (44 magnum frame) @ 25 yards. I have yet to properly note the targets but here is what we have.

26gr H-4198 (exceeds SAAMI MAX PRESSURES)

Outpost's design cast bullets - Accurate Mold's 43-230G 235gr sized .429

Starline Brass
CCI-300 primers
Case - 1.292
Bullet - .647
AOL - 1.598
Seat Depth - .341

Est CIP Pressure - (MAX = 15,954 psi)
19,356 psi @ 40.00 H2O (Case Volumetric Measurements)
23,138 psi @ 41.40 H2O (Case Volumetric Measurements)

TARGETS
Left - Marlin 1894CB with scope @ 75 yards
Avg. 1,444fps with 1 1/2" 4 shot group

Right - Uberti 44 Magnum Frame "Buckhorn" 7 1/2" Barrel with 44-40 cylinder @ 25 yards
Avg. 992fps with 3 1/4" 4 shot group @ 25 yards

228027

Ignore shot placement because the scope is set up for a different load recipe. The revolver is POA but my eyes.......

Rifle used a Caldwell forearm and butt stock rest. Revolver used a Lee Machine Pistol rest but was not clamped down.

[Savvy Jack]

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Hootmix......I forgot what all was listed in the topic but my best groups yet in the rifle is a case capacity load (bullet base touches and sits on top of powder) of Reloder 7 and the following.

All inside a 4" Group @ 100 Yards. Pressures estimated between 17,500 and 18,500 psi CIP respectively between the two different grain weight bullets.

Target #187 Rifle, 20 shots @ 100 yards
228029

Target #188 Rifle, 17 shots @ 100 Yards THIS is my go-to load and is what my scope is zeroed in for.
228028


Excellent load for White Tail Deer in the strong action Marlin!!

[Savvy Jack]

PS:

I tried a hefty 20gr of 2400 today as well in the magnum revolver. This is what it reminded me of and I have no desire to do it again. The 44 Mag does the same thing and its monstrous!

228038