Which dies for precision reloading?

[crabo]

I am going to buy a .308 if it is still there tomorrow. I will be shooting jacketed for a whiole and then will start shooting cast.

Which dies would be best for precision loading? I don't have any 308 dies.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Super-duper precision reloading dies are manufactured and marketed by RCBS, Redding and Hornady. They have all sorts of bells and whistles including micrometer adjustments for the seating and precision neck sizing to .001. Lee has their version of neck size only- precision dies that they back with a "best accuracy" money back guarantee. They also claim a world record set for a thousand yards for ammo made with the very economically priced Lee Loader. I don't necessarily believe what is claimed or written on the box, but also do personally believe that the manufacturers listed above all make excellent precision dies which are capable of producing very high quality precision ammo. Naturally the first "Big Three" want to be well paid for those precision dies and they aren't cheap...in fact,are priced significantly higher than normal dies. Quality wise you won't be shorted, but you need a wider range of advice from users of a particular brand. In the end you will have to make the call, but you'll do well with whatever you choose. LLS

[Heavy lead]

I like Hornady dies the best for bottle necked rifle, but I own all of them, FWIW, my most accurate 223 (AR15 10 shots in .5 MOA out to 300 yards) are loaded with Hornady, my most accurate 22-250 (about the same accuracy out to 400 yards with 5 shot groups) are loaded on the RGB (cheapest) Lee, a very accurate 25-06 Ruger Number One stainless shoots Hornady 120 hollow points in .5 MOA with 5 shot groups out to 400 as well with Hornady dies. My most two accurate big guns a 338-06 and 338 Ultra, also half to three quarter minute rifles shoot Lee and Hornady respectively. Could I get better groups switching? Maybe, but I'm happy with all of them. Only set of dies I bought I was not happy with was a set of Lyman 30-06 dies, think it was just an anomoly, runout was very poor, but other Lyman's have been good.

[1hole]

Contrary to many opinions, no one makes second class dies. External finished and some slight user features change but they ALL meet SAAMI specs on the internals and that's where our ammo get remade. Spend what ever it takes to make you happy and load away in confidence that IF you do your part the dies will do theirs!

[docone31]

If you have one rifle, and want great accuracy with it, the Lee Collet Dies are a good way to go. Lee will if you send them a bullet, and case, match the dies to them.
I have a .303 British, known for case head seperation. I have already twice the reloads on my cases than most get with the Lee dies.
I am not sure how they will work for multiple rifles of the same caliber. I suspect they will work all right. Each case forms itself to the chamber.
I like them, once I got used to them.

[Bullshop]

Wilson straight line dies.. You dont see many folks shootin bench rest using threaded dies.
BIC/BS

[Tom W.]

I got rid of Lee dies and replaced them with Redding Deluxe Dies. I will say that it will help your nerves if you buy a bunch of the Hornady or Forster locking rings and get rid of those that come with the other brands, whichever you choose.

[Mumblypeg]

I size with a Lee collet die and seat with a Redding benchrest seating die. Kind of one extream to the other as far as dies go.

[largom]

Agree with Bullshop on Wilson however I mostly use Redding Competition Match Grade dies. Very expensive but I used them for jacketed bullet benchrest shooting. I also have Hornady, RCBS, and Lee dies. When loading cast boolits I like to make my own seating stems to match the boolit ogive. The Redding seating stems in my dies are the most difficult to make, but I enjoy the work.
Larry

[Forester]

The Forster micrometer seater die is IMO at least as good as the Redding and a little cheaper. The redding is very good though, and I own a few of them. I also like the Forster bushing bump/neck size die. I have had good results with the Lee Colet die as well but I never could get it to quit scratching the heck out of the necks. I also got more concentric ammo using the Forster neck die.

The Hornady dies are good, especially for the price but not nearly on the same level as the Redding or Forster.

Course if price is no issue,Bullshop is spot on (of course), the Wilson dies and an arbor press are as good as it gets.

[cajun shooter]

Redding mic die will put the bullet in the neck the same every time. I've used them for years for my serious loads. Using a runout guage will show a perfect seat in the case neck. When using normal every day seating dies, I seat the bullet then turn it in the shellholder and reseat. This little move helps when you have runout and thus a bad seating. I also bought the RCBS competition die set for a 7Mag. and it worked well.

[jonk]

For a bench rest rifle, it may matter (check that, probably WILL matter) what die you buy.

For hunting or even target shooting out to 300 yards I seriously doubt anyone will notice a difference based on die manufacturer, assuming neck sizing for a particular weapon.

[Forester]

For a bench rest rifle, it may matter (check that, probably WILL matter) what die you buy.

For hunting or even target shooting out to 300 yards I seriously doubt anyone will notice a difference based on die manufacturer, assuming neck sizing for a particular weapon.

Respectfully have to disagree with that. Now my testing was done at 500 instead of 300 to provide a stronger test, but I suspect the results would still have been significant (To Me)

I tested the runout question using a Savage .308 that shoots extremely well. .3-.4MOA out to 600 when the nut behind the trigger does his job.

I shot 2 5 shot groups in very near ideal conditions with rounds having .000, .001, .002, .003, .004, and .005 measured runout on the ogive. The hardest part was loading enough rounds to come up with that many in each group. The .001-.003 rounds were easy but I wound up kind of "leaning" on the loaded bullet a little to bend some into .004 and .005.

Runout seemed to have some effect even at .001 but it would take a lot of rounds to quantify the difference in a concrete way up to .002. At .002 I could still hold less than or right at .5MOA at 500. From there every.001 increase in runout added 3/4 to 1 inch to the group. The Lapua cases got a full benchrest prep except that I only turn the necks when they are new to clean up about 70%. This seems to help make for low runout more than it matters with consistent bullet release. These cases came from the same lot and were on their 3rd firing. Suffice to say I am comfortable with the results!

Load was:
Lapua cases
CCI BR2 primers
43.5gr RE-15
168gr Berger VLD (sorted by bearing surface length to .001")

I shot the groups in round robin fashion so fouling and barrel heat were not the issue.

Now, does this matter for you? Thats up to each of us. But I want all the accuracy I can get, and I use this rifle for crows and groundhogs out to 600 yards so it matters to me.

I use the best dies I can reasonably afford. Redding or Forster micrometer seater dies and neck dies. The Lee Colet die is also great, and if it was machined a little better I would probably use it, but it scratched the heck out of the necks. Forster Co-Ax press, Forster case trimmer, individually weighed charges.

my .02cents...or maybe 3[smilie=1:

[ddeaton]

Redding mic die will put the bullet in the neck the same every time. I've used them for years for my serious loads. Using a runout guage will show a perfect seat in the case neck. When using normal every day seating dies, I seat the bullet then turn it in the shellholder and reseat. This little move helps when you have runout and thus a bad seating. I also bought the RCBS competition die set for a 7Mag. and it worked well.

+1 on the Redding. I have been using the neck size and the full length. The micrometer seating die is great also.

[crabo]

I am going to use this in a Remington Light Tactical. Eventually I plan to shoot some cast in it. I may have to try some silhouette and I will probably hunt with it instead of my .280 I don't forsee doing any benchrest shooting. I am not built that way.

[mainiac]

I agree with others on here, wilson dies are the ones to buy. Controled neck tension, and STRAIGHT bullets! Dont need a arbor press either, use a plastic hammer to tap the case in the sizer, and when the neck tension is correct, you can seat the bullet with thumb pressure. Best 75 bucks you could ever spend, toward accuracy.

[Explorer1]

Agree with the above, if you want the extreme Wilson inline is the only choice. Practically says Redding bushing dies are as good for anyone who is not turning necks for TIGHT chambers like the ones for benchrest guns.
You can try any, the results are in run-out, and consistency.

Me? I have Wilson dies and carry them to the field for those long days of varmint busting...burn some powder and take a break to load when the 100 rds of brass start running low.

[Naphtali]

I may be at the entrance to bizarro-land. I own no Redding dies. My shooting partner, formerly a commercial bullet caster and ammunition maker, is the most hard-core reloader I have met -- tens of thousands of rounds shot per year for many years, including thousand yard [black powder] matches at the range near Missoula. He will no longer own or buy any Redding reloading die. His experience with them is they are imprecise, perhaps poorly finished.

Having written that, he, however, owns Redding-Saeco lubrisizers, UltraMag presses, 2400 trimmer, etc. He thinks highly of Redding-Saeco products that are not reloading dies.

What's the skinny here?

[Forester]

I may be at the entrance to bizarro-land. I own no Redding dies. My shooting partner, formerly a commercial bullet caster and ammunition maker, is the most hard-core reloader I have met -- tens of thousands of rounds shot per year for many years, including thousand yard [black powder] matches at the range near Missoula. He will no longer own or buy any Redding reloading die. His experience with them is they are imprecise, perhaps poorly finished.

Having written that, he, however, owns Redding-Saeco lubrisizers, UltraMag presses, 2400 trimmer, etc. He thinks highly of Redding-Saeco products that are not reloading dies.

What's the skinny here?

What brand does he favor? If his comparison is with Wilson dies, I can sort of see his point. But no way would I put Lee, RCBS, Lyman, or Hornadys product lines up as equal or better than Redding (individual products yes but the line as a whole never)

Fact is I don't really care what color the box is. I want what works the very best for me.

[felix]

Dies that are custom fit to the gun are best. Made by "backyard mechanics" or any machine shop, be it a reloading outfit or not. There is no point in having custom dies made for guns with loose tolerances. Whenever you are shooting rounds with some rounout, accuracy will be obtained easier by: minimal neck tension, seating off of the lands, hard projectiles, slowest possible non-stalling ignition to allow the projectile as much time as possible to self-center before engraving. ... felix

[Naphtali]

What brand does he favor? If his comparison is with Wilson dies, I can sort of see his point. . . .I cannot say now. The next time I visit or talk with him, I'll ask. One thing I do know is that he uses/operates his dies differently from the way I do. I keep meaning to ask about that but don't remember when I should. I'm going to write myself a note and leave it in the truck. When I have the information, I'll pass it to you.

[1hole]

"Me? I have Wilson dies and carry them to the field for those long days of varmint busting...burn some powder and take a break to load when the 100 rds of brass start running low. "

Question: How do you like Wilson hand dies for FL sizing cases? And seating long (heavy) for caliber bullets in hunting cartridges? VLD bullets in target type rifles? Not quite so good then, are they?

Like all blanket statements in accuracy reloading, recommendations of Wilson dies, or Redding, or Forster, or brand X, or neck sizing, seating bullets in the lands, etc, have about as many exceptions as they get right. I mean, it just ain't that simple guys!

We each should use the dies, or type dies and other things we need to get the job done and no blanket solution nor brand of tools can cover that properly.

[1hole]

"Me? I have Wilson dies and carry them to the field for those long days of varmint busting...burn some powder and take a break to load when the 100 rds of brass start running low. "

Questions: How do you like Wilson hand dies for FL sizing cases? And seating long (heavy) for caliber bullets in hunting cartridges? Or seating VLD bullets for target type rifles? Not quite so good then, are they?

Like all blanket statements in accuracy reloading, recommendations of Wilson dies, or Redding, or Forster, or brand X, or neck sizing, seating bullets in the lands, etc, all have about as many exceptions as they get right. I mean, it just ain't that simple guys!

We each should use the dies, or type dies and other things we need to get the job done and no blanket solution nor brand of tools can cover that properly.

[Ballard]

You just cannot go wrong with Wilson dies and a good arbor press.

[Char-Gar]

I find these threads interesting, because they quickly devolve from the question to theory and esoterica.

If you have a factory sporting rifle, dies by the major makers will squeeze all the accuracy the rifle has to give. My personal preference is Redding, although I have dies from many different makers and use them all. C-H, Hollywood, Lyman, RCBS, Bair, Herters, Pacific, Hornaday and others.

I have been using Wilson products for over 50 years and hold them in high regard, but for the the fellow who is not trying to shave an extra .010. off their bench rest groups, they are not worth the time and expense. They are a specialty product for the specialty rifleman.

I do believe in straight line bullet seating and have several custom made Wilson seating dies for cast bullets. I also have several old Vickerman seating dies, and these dies can be used with any cartridge of the same bore. They are a better value and offer all the extra accuracy that straight line seating affords.

[atr]

I have never been disappointed using RCBS dies. For the "average" guy with a stock standard rifle these dies work well.

[danski26]

Crabo,

I suggest you get a copy of Glen Zediker's book "Handloading For Competition". It is 443 pages of information about this topic. Glen is very experienced. He is a top competiter and rubs elbows with the best in the world. He seeks there opinions, tests them and put them into this book.

[kir_kenix]

In most factory rifles, I'm not sure you could see much a difference with all the big companies. I like Hornady dies for most reloading, but would probably buy Redding if I could afford them all the time. I agree with others here that Wilson probably makes the best dies for the BR crowd, but I'm not sure most of us would see a difference with off the rack rifles.

[FN in MT]

I may be at the entrance to bizarro-land. I own no Redding dies. My shooting partner, formerly a commercial bullet caster and ammunition maker, is the most hard-core reloader I have met -- tens of thousands of rounds shot per year for many years, including thousand yard [black powder] matches at the range near Missoula. He will no longer own or buy any Redding reloading die. His experience with them is they are imprecise, perhaps poorly finished.




I tested several sets of new REDDING FL/Neck only dies and my run out was FAR LESS than with my 1990's era RCBS, Lyman or LEE dies. I will add that my 1960's RCBS dies were nearly run out free, on par with the REDDINGS. All testing was done with a Forster press.

One set of .222 Rem dies purchased in 2005 were so bad I sent them BACK to RCBS and they REPLACED them. Runout was .015" to .020" . And the FL die had several DEEP flaws in the internal finish.
In a Cooper m-21 using std REDDING NS dies my groups went from an average of .6" to .75"+ down to .4 to .5". So in THAT instance sub standard dies certainly made a difference.

I have a very hard time understanding your Buddies dislike for REDDING dies. My experience has been 180 degrees out from his.

FN in MT

[mike in co]

the real questions is, describe the rifle and your intent...distance/type of target.

then an answer might make sense.

my factory ar10t(7.62x51) has a throat that requires a oal of 2.96x....just 0.140 over sammi.

sammi is a set of numbers for manufacturing and prodution......not for accuracy.

production dies for production ammo with expetactions of "ok" results.
if you want better/buy better/work harder/practice more

for starters: a lee loader in 308 win......


mike in co

[crabo]

[QUOTE=mike in co;445864]the real questions is, describe the rifle and your intent...distance/type of target.

then an answer might make sense.

Mike, Here's the rifle I bought.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/700ltr.htm

OK results are not good enough. The rifle has a reputation for 1/2 moa. That is what my expectations and goals are. Right now I can shoot to 200. I am thinking about trying some hp shilouette if I can find a place not too far away.

I have a friend that has a set of RCBS dies that I can borrow. I was thinking of buying a Redding Benchrest seating die and go with that for a while and then probably buying a set of Redding dies when I give his back.

I have 5 boxes of Remington match ammo stashed from back in the day. I plan on getting some Lapua or Norma brass when I build up the gun fund some more.

[Bullshop]

Shoulda bought a Savage.
BIC/BS

[Forester]

An expectation of 1/2 MOA from a factory rifle and barrel might be a little high. Sure a lot of them are capable of it but the trigger probably needs work, the barrel is not going to be on par with a Shilen, or Lilja or whatever. And if the stock is stiff enough to begin with it probably still needs a good bedding job.

Nothing wrong with striving to get the best out of the gun, but it might not be capable of 1/2 MOA without some work. Especially if you want to stretch the distance out more than a couple hundred yards.

[crabo]

Crabo,

I suggest you get a copy of Glen Zediker's book "Handloading For Competition". It is 443 pages of information about this topic. Glen is very experienced. He is a top competiter and rubs elbows with the best in the world. He seeks there opinions, tests them and put them into this book.

Thanks, I ordered a copy. This is what I have been looking for. (the book) I bought this rifle, even though it isn't a Savage, because I liked the way it felt in my hands and how it hung when I held it offhand.

I'm not planning on shooting benchrest, but I want accurate loads.

Thanks Danski,

[FN in MT]

Crabo.....ACCURACY is a lot like car related HORSEPOWER........How much can You AFFORD??

I'm not trying to be a smart ass...just wanted to throw in one of lifes little truisms that I learned the hard way.

FN in MT

[crabo]

Crabo.....ACCURACY is a lot like car related HORSEPOWER........How much can You AFFORD??

FN in MT


I know! Nothing beats cubic money. I need to start somewhere and I figure the dies are a place to start. And the trigger, and the brass, and the brass prep, and the glass, and the rests, and......

I can't afford to run top fuel, but that won't keep me from having a lot of fun in A/Gas.

[mike in co]

not being a smart ass either, but before you go expensive on dies start with the lee loader for about 20 bucks. you will be shooting your own fired brass, so neck sizing is all you need for a long time. the lee inline loader is very accurate.

aint nothing in the world like shooting well with HAND loads.
i own redding and bonanza br dies and a couple of std dies, but three sets of 308 win lee loaders.....one for each rifle they are used with.

mike

[Hip's Ax]

Any of the manufacturers can make a crooked die. I was blissfully ignorant until I bought an RCBS Case Master dial indicator rig. I found that the Redding neck die I had in 30-338 put an unacceptable amount of runout on my once fired cases. I got another and it was just fine.

As far as what I buy today, for example I have a 6.5-284 on the way and bought full up Redding competition bushing dies. I'm still going to check them out though, I won't assume because they are fancy they will give me what I want.

I have a 260 Remington long range rifle that I've used a fair bit in the last few years and frankly, I usually use the Lee Collet Die more often than anything. Great runout and no lube needed, faster reloading to boot.

My advice is get a Lee Collet die and a Redding body die for when you have the knock the shoulder back.

Buy Lapua brass, Norma is too thin. I have 6XC Norma brass because there is little choice. Nothing wrong with Remington or Winchester brass either as long as you check it out. Since I shoot prone from a sling (and really not that much centerfire compared to rimfire) I don't get too carried away with reloading. Knock the burr off the flash hole and trim new brass and then neck size only until I have to knock the shoulder back with a body die. I dont bother neck turning or weighing charges either. Works really well out to 600 where I have much more experience than at 1000, at 1000 the conditions make it hard to tell what was you or the wind and mirage.

Note: When I say I don't weigh charges I have to explain. For anything up to 4895 I just throw from the measure. 4064 and rougher stick powder go through my old style balance beam type auto scale, its alledged to be good for .2 grains accuracy. My 260 ammo with H4350 out of that auto scale with my collet die sized brass is easily capable of cleaning at 600 with good x's if I do my part during a match. Best so far is 199-15 but thats me not the rifle. During my load testing my accepted load gave me a 3" 17 out of 20 shot group at 600 from a sling with irons.