Montana going lead free?

[Beerd]

Apparently (almost) anyone can buy space in the Montana hunting regulations booklet.

[Winger Ed.]

It's a suggestion for now, but the camel is trying to get its nose up under the edge of the tent too.

Hopefully yawl won't end up with the whole camel inside the tent.

[megasupermagnum]

"...or other high-weight retention ammunition."

Sounds like a job for a cast lead bullet to me.

[elmacgyver0]

It seems the left has their eyes on Montana.

[Lloyd Smale]

probably an add barnes paid for.

[reloader28]

No big suprise. Western Montana is very liberal.

[Norske]

Bozeman is fully Californicated, the nearby smaller cities aren't yet.

[memtb]

It seems the left has their eyes on Montana.

As a state, Montana is mostly lost to the leftest. Like some other states having lots of open country with few people....the few populated areas dominate the political spectrum! It’s beginning to happen in Idaho and Utah as well......the larger population bases tend to go left, ultimately determining the direction of state politics! memtb

[ShooterAZ]

Arizona has the same lead free recommendation. It's primarily in the hunt units that are adjacent to the Grand Canyon. They re-introduced the California Condor at the Canyon, and the condors love to eat lead laden gut-piles. It's not law, just recommended...but we all know what that leads to.

[waksupi]

As it says, won't happen due to state statute. There is also a federal law about it.

[white eagle]

Montana is left
At least by the stand point of the Governor
I would have thought Montana would have been the other way
but live and learn
why the attack on lead there seems to be a lot of that type of
propaganda going on I recall seeing it in our reg's as well

[405grain]

I watched as it happened around me in Kommiefornia. Here's how it works: First use questionable science to say that lead is harming a nearly extinct species. (It might be ingesting lead from chewing on paint chips, but blame it on bullets) Then create a lead free exclusion zone to protect that species. Now that the camel has it's foot under the tent, declare that you need to make all hunting in the state lead free so that you can protect all species. Next ban any bullets that contain lead from all public shooting ranges so that you can protect people by driving shooting ranges out of business. Next ban all lead ammo on public lands to save kittens, bunny's & baby ducks. Finally, make it illegal to possess any bullets that contain lead because "its for the children". You see, once the camel's inside the tent it just starts to take a dump everywhere!

[Shawlerbrook]

Just a matter of time before it’s the law of the land.

[Beerd]

In Montana there is a Fish and Wildlife Commission consisting of five members appointed by the governor.
By law this Commission "shall establish the hunting, fishing, and trapping rules of the department" of Fish Wildlife and Parks.
The law goes on to say "The commission may not regulate the use or possession of firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition, including the chemical elements of ammunition used for hunting."
Title87, chapter 1, 301(6), Montana Code Annotated.

Like most other states, the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks publishes a glossy magazine full of some more or less interesting info. The latest issue devotes 6 pages to an article on "Choosing the unleaded option".

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2020/LeadEagles.htm

The author is careful to point out that switching to lead free bullets is only a suggestion and is completely voluntary, but I don't like where this is headed.

[fastdadio]

What we really need is an electoral college at the state level for the same reason it's need on a national level.

[gnappi]

For waterfowl, upland birds and small game there's bismuth and steel. If hunters use these options, and the condors ingest it (ostensibly from the small game they eat) they'll poop the steel and get a belly ache free meal thanks to the bismuth :-)

So the answer is clear, use what will not kill condors, and will not give ammunition / excuses to banners.

[megasupermagnum]

For waterfowl, upland birds and small game there's bismuth and steel. If hunters use these options, and the condors ingest it (ostensibly from the small game they eat) they'll poop the steel and get a belly ache free meal thanks to the bismuth :-)

So the answer is clear, use what will not kill condors, and will not give ammunition / excuses to banners.

Bismuth price has come down quite a bit in the last 5 years, but it is still out of the price range of most people. We aren't talking about a small increase, or even double the price. Bismuth is about 8 times the cost of lead shot, and that's even with the current cost of lead shot, which is up dramatically from 10 years ago. Steel shot is less expensive than bismuth, but the special components cost more than lead loads. Plus steel shot is not safe in many guns. You need a gun built for steel shot, using special wads, and making sure your choke is modified or more open, or if using choke tubes, making sure that tube is rated for steel. Often choke tubes are only rated for certain steel loads up to a certain speed, say 1550 fps, so you have to watch that too. All of that nonsense for a load that is pathetic. Steel shot kills in it's limits, but it is pathetic compared to lead shot.

[Texas by God]

More waterfowl have died unrecovered from wounds due to the poor performance of steel shot than by ingesting lead from the silt. Lead free hunting laws only seek to reduce hunting, period. Has the Condor population doubled, tripled, or quadrupled since the lead ban?

[cp1969]

What we really need is an electoral college at the state level for the same reason it's need on a national level.

Absolutely! My governor won nine out of 105 counties, and each one of the nine is home to a liberal indoctrination center.

[edp2k]

So the answer is clear, use what will not kill condors, and will not give ammunition / excuses to banners.
NOT. They will never be satisfied, they will successively try to ban each and every type of firearm and ammunition and then
after all that they will try to ban kitchen knives, like they are trying to do now in the UK.

Appeasement never works.
Don't be afraid to stand up for your civil rights.

[memtb]

What we really need is an electoral college at the state level for the same reason it's need on a national level.


^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^ memtb

[rbuck351]

As far as I know, we don't have any condors in Montana and I'm fairly sure even the best of my rifles won't reach to Kommiefornia. I'll stick with lead. I hope we might soon have a republican governor.

[MT Gianni]

A few years back the major electric utility wanted to run a transmission line to an Idaho link through farm and ranch country. It was fought tooth and nail by the locals including a legal initiative. The initiative failed and the next year it was a non issue. The reason for the non issue was that the PSC switched from 4 democrats to 4 republicans. The republicans didn't care about requiring "green power" and the need to ship it out of state. There are a lot of lessons to be learned here and put in practice in November. It is also good to know that FWP will sale ad space to anybody. I think if Peta showed up with 10 million dollars they could have front and back page ads.
In general Montana liberals would be considered middle of the road in many other states. The liberal politicians are quick to toe their parties line to whatever they say however.We would have had a different gov. last term had the rep candidate been anything but an out of state carpetbagger with his own interests.

[Duke3026]

In Montana there is a Fish and Wildlife Commission consisting of five members appointed by the governor.
By law this Commission "shall establish the hunting, fishing, and trapping rules of the department" of Fish Wildlife and Parks.
The law goes on to say "The commission may not regulate the use or possession of firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition, including the chemical elements of ammunition used for hunting."
Title87, chapter 1, 301(6), Montana Code Annotated.

Like most other states, the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks publishes a glossy magazine full of some more or less interesting info. The latest issue devotes 6 pages to an article on "Choosing the unleaded option".

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2020/LeadEagles.htm

The author is careful to point out that switching to lead free bullets is only a suggestion and is completely voluntary, but I don't like where this is headed.


I have this issue of “ Montana Outdoors”. My question is! How many more ****ing eagles does MT need. They certainly don’t need anymore protection. One doesn’t need to look further, to see what’s coming. Look at the nonsense with the wolves, and grizzlies. That U.S. Fish&Wildlife rammed up every rancher, and sportmens ***.

[Mal Paso]

Anybody casting Q metal? 1.67 times the density of lead you could jacket with aluminum and still have a decent BC. The Army says it's safe. DOE has 480,000 tons ready to go. Trump might go for it just to hear the screams.

Hunters switch to Depleted Uranium in the face of lead bans.

[405grain]

Depleted Uranium boolits = muy bad! Forget about the toxicity & radioactivity, those are minor issues. Uranium has a strong pyrokinetic effect. It dissipates significant amounts of it's kinetic energy as heat, as in white hot heat. It doesn't have to strike a rock to make a spark like steel jacketed bullets. If it strikes anything it just straight up starts a forest fire. It would be worse than hunting with tracer rounds. Back during the cold war we'd take pieces of uranium the size of a nickle that was left over from making ......stuff, and throw them against a steel barrier just to watch them light up. It's got some other nasty chemical properties that would make it a poor choice for the average Joe to try casting, but overall, except for junking out enemy tanks (and ships) it really isn't a good choice for bullets.

[MOC031]

As a state, Montana is mostly lost to the leftest.

That didn't age well after election day... Republican governor to replace BS Bullock; former governor fails miserably at moving to the Senate, beaten by Daines. Single seat in the House remains Republican. And so on... none of them close.

In fact, pretty much swept out the Democrat crap. Small silver lining after the presidential results.

It's kind of like looking at the area around Jackson Hole and saying Wyoming is mostly lost to the leftists. In Montana, we're stuck with our version of Jackson Hole - Missoula.

Whether Gianforte will live up to his tough talk now that the election is over and he's the new Governor, we shall see. He seemed to work at trying to be invisible during his time in the House after all his tough talk before that election.

[1I-Jack]

What we really need is an electoral college at the state level for the same reason it's need on a national level.

Absolutely!! Washington state would be red if it wasn't for 3 counties around Seattle.

[CLAYPOOL]

IT'S AMAZING that the ducks and geese in Illinois stopped being found dead after that got steel shot railroaded in... I guess all that LEAD SHOT sank or something. Notice no STUDIES done on the loss and crippling increases.... They were MASSIVE and still on going..

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Is depleted uranium o.k. to use?

[Rick R]

The Left/Globalist will not be happy until the only firearm you can own will be a flintlock musket just like “it says in the Second Amendment”.

Except both lead and black powder will be illegal to own.

[popper]

You put crooks into gov and you become a third world economy. Don't understand how idiots think it will get better.

[MOC031]

IT'S AMAZING that the ducks and geese in Illinois stopped being found dead after that got steel shot railroaded in.

The biologist who did the original Nilo Farms study that was used as the basis of the lead shot ban said at the time he published it that it was an ESTIMATE. A year or two later he published a subsequent study that said his original estimate wasn't even close to being accurate.

But as you said, none of that or other studies which ran opposite to the original study are ever brought up. Buried as deep as the Barr/Duram investigation of what Bolshevik Barack and China Joe Biden were doing with the FBI back in 2016 is going to be buried.

I have printouts of those studies and papers from back then around here somewhere. I should see if I can find them and scan them into .pdfs if they can't be found somewhere on the Internet.

[725]

MOCO31, please do.

Maryland would be bright red if it weren't for three jurisdictions surrounding DC. (And Balto. City)

[megasupermagnum]

IT'S AMAZING that the ducks and geese in Illinois stopped being found dead after that got steel shot railroaded in... I guess all that LEAD SHOT sank or something. Notice no STUDIES done on the loss and crippling increases.... They were MASSIVE and still on going..

There is no way at all to ever prove more ducks are wounded with steel shot, rather than lead shot. I personally think more are. Either way, the number of ducks that are crippled by hunter, either before or after the lead ban absolutely dwarfed any possibility of some ducks being killed by lead poisoning.

There never has been, and I doubt there ever will be an honest wide scale study on the effects of lead shot on wild game. It is a shame, as it could finally put this myth to bed. Being able to use lead shot on ducks again would really help the sport out, which seems to have morphed into a bunch of hold out die-hards. That sounds great on paper, but that doesn't help hunting as a whole either. So many new hunters try duck hunting when they are young, only to abandon it for the easier and cheaper animals like deer and turkey. Many give up hunting altogether.

[popper]

Give up hunting? That's the idea, then no reason for guns.

[SweetMk]

Give up hunting? That's the idea, then no reason for guns.

I have been shooting since 1962, and I have not hunted since 1979,, so, to me,,
hunting has nothin' to do with shooting.

100% of my shooting is for plinking, even including my 300 Win Mag,,,

[SweetMk]

Rather than fighting the lead ban, go the opposite way,, switch to ZERO WEIGHT BULLETS,,
since the bullets have zero weight, the bullet can accelerate to almost the speed of light, before exiting the barrel
(there is no inertia for the powder to overcome)
The ammo is lethal do only its extreme speed,,

The only problem, is keeping the bullets from floating away, before you get a chance to shoot them.

[Larry Gibson]

Absolutely!! Washington state would be red if it wasn't for 3 counties around Seattle.

Washington, Oregon, etc...... all states do have checks and balances. The states with mostly red counties outside the leftist metro area all out number the blue counties. Each county has 2 state senators and the state senates could block (the "check") the leftist programs. Yet the red counties keep electing democrat state senators or RINO state senators who give in to the democrats. Ergo the "check" that should be there isn't and it's the republicans and conservatives own fault...... we our our worst enemy......

[Mal Paso]

Is depleted uranium o.k. to use?

No. I just hate it that something that works (lead) is crippled by stupid laws. If lead is banned people will find other materials to shoot...

Thanks to 405grain we have some info not in Wikipedia.

[wolfwing]

What we really need is an electoral college at the state level for the same reason it's need on a national level.

I have been saying this for years!!! It is nice to know I'm not the only one!

Kalifornians are a cancer to this country

[popper]

Aren't most of these 'rules' by fish and game (except Ca)? Take out the trash. Tx has the same rules for waterfowl, makes no sense. Even worse, they protect the white egrets that are everywhere.

[MT Gianni]

Give up hunting? That's the idea, then no reason for guns.

The Greatest Show on Earth was on TV last night. We did some quick research and found the last circus with animal acts was shut down by PETA in 2014. It isn't just hunting, these die hard idiots believe a mouse in your house has more right to be there than you do.

[MOC031]

Tx has the same rules for waterfowl, makes no sense.
I'm not 100% positive, but I believe that the US, Canada, and Mexico are all signatories to the multinational Migratory Game Bird Treaty, going back to about 1900 around the heyday of market hunting, punt guns, etc. If you compare waterfowl hunting regulations for Texas, Montana, Alberta, etc... they look almost identical.

It's a federal act that overrides state and province laws (or what they might want as laws) in all of the countries that are signed on to it. It's even been used to stop the US military from using some islands around Guam as live fire ranges for bombing, shelling, etc.

[MOC031]

Absolutely!! Washington state would be red if it wasn't for 3 counties around Seattle.

US election results at the county level, so far. Another presidency representing all Americans

270981

[Beerd]

MOC031,
just a friendly fyi, that last post belongs in "The Pit"
..

[MOC031]

Fixed?

[David LaPell]

It's the same here in NY. For the last three or four years the state has been putting in a page in the hunting booklet you get with your license advising you that it would be better for the environment to use non-lead ammo. I have a bad feeling that with a possible change of things in DC now, we could see something at a federal level. I've been buying up some of the lead free metal in ingot form to cast up in a couple rifles in case I get limited here and some bismuth shot for a couple shotgun shells for game loads. With the lack of ammo right now in crisis form, I can only imagine what it would do to mandate "lead free".

[Randy Bohannon]

This issue popped up about 12 years ago here in Wyoming, the state looked at the only real study done by South Dakota U . They sampled as many deer shot with lead boolits as they could over a couple of seasons and found you could eat right up to the hole with no discernible levels of lead. Wyoming said we don’t have Condors and no one has ever recovered a lead boolits in a gut pile and just how many gut piles contain lead boolits ?

[vincewarde]

Our family fled California for Idaho in 2015. Trust me, we want to keep our new home SOLID RED.

As for the concerns about lead poisoning wildlife, if we accept - just for the sake of argument - that there is a real problem, there are other ways to handle the "problem" besides a lead ammo ban. For instance, simply burying or packing out the gut pile solves the problem.

But, of course, the real goal is to make hunting and shooting too expensive for the average person - hence the efforts in CA to ban lead ammo for all purposes.....

[leadeye]

I've always been amused about government fuss concerning lead in the environment. Changing wheel weights on cars and scolding over lead bullets. All the yellow traffic paint on the highways is colored with LEAD CHROMATE, it's mandated by the same government.

[MT Gianni]

I've always been amused about government fuss concerning lead in the environment. Changing wheel weights on cars and scolding over lead bullets. All the yellow traffic paint on the highways is colored with LEAD CHROMATE, it's mandated by the same government.

They also have labelled asphalt as hazardous waste, unless it is on a highway. About all the integrity and common sense of a magpie.

[buckleymarka56]

That's pretty funny.
If you left the government in charge of the Shara desert. In 2 years there would be shortage of sand.

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