Small base die for Browning BLR .308?

[FergusonTO35]

I decided to start loading for my early 90's Browning BLR .308 again after a long hiatus. First thing I notice is that once fired brass from a different rifle which has been full length resized in my Lee dies doesn't chamber easily. Takes a fair amount of effort to close the lever. I have been reading about the problem online and the consensus is that for unknown reasons Browning gives the BLR a tight chamber and small base dies are the solution. By comparison, some factory Remington 150 grain rounds chamber and eject no problemo. Does this sound correct? It seems counterintuitive to put a tight chamber on a lever action.

[country gent]

it may or may not help. there is a small portion of a case that just dosnt get sized this is do to the top lip of the shell holder and the radius on the die mouth. You might cut the radius off depending on how the die hits the shoulder in relation to the shell holder. If the die bumps the shoulder back enough with out touching the shoulder run a feeler gauge between to see how much can be removed.

A small based die may do it ink one of the cases that are tight and carefully chamber it then remove and see where they are tight. The rub marks will show you. Nime military fired brass fired in larger chambers will be a bear to size in a small base die.

You need to watch how much you push the shoulder back when sizing. Normally .002-.003 is plenty of bump back.

[Don McDowell]

It's not uncommon for a round fired in one rifle to not chamber well in another.
I shoot 3 BLR's. 2 of them I have rifles chambered for the same cartridge, I keep separate brass for each rifle and use standard reloading dies for.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks! I found a good deal on an RCBS small base die so I went ahead and ordered it. Will paint one of the cases and see if I can figure out where it is hanging up at. This rifle belonged to my dad and he never used anything but factory ammo. It shoots really well so I want to get it figured out.

[Larry Gibson]

Measure the diameter of the FL sizes (with your Lee FL sizer) at the expansion web. Then measure the same on a fired cases and on the factory unfired case. If a SB die is needed the Lee sized case will be the largest diameter, then the fired case and then the factory case should be the smallest diameter.

Make sure, when sizing the case the shell holder bumps solidly against the bottom of the die. There should be no "cam over". If your press was camming over when sizing then adjust the die (turn in a turn), resize some cases and try to chamber those. Also make sure to trim as with sizing the FL die will push the expanded case in the area of the expansion web in causing the brass to flow forward lengthening the oal of the sized case.

A SB die should not be needed. A RCBS X-die will FL size the case and prevent the case for "stretching" so the oal does not increase and you'll not have to trim. Case life will be greatly improved also.

[popper]

X die is SB and limits COAL growth by a shoulder at the case mouth. SB gets the case almost all the way to the groove, regular doesn't, it's also smaller by a thous or so on the body (not much more than normal machining tolerance). Most of my brass is LC MG shot, I use the std RCBS set. I get ~6 reloads (full power) in my AR10 before neck splits and shoulder cracks (unless annealed). Smoke or mark the case and see where it hangs. I use Lee cast SS press and stop after the upstroke for a while then downstroke - reduces the brass body 'spring back'.
My understanding of the BLR it doesn't have a lot of 'camming' power.

[MT Gianni]

Mine is an 81 with a birth year of 1980. I have never needed a small base die and confess to swapping brass between it and a couple of bolts.

[pietro]

.

Small base Dies have long been the Gold Standard for reloading the Browning BLR.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks for the wealth of info! Yes, the BLR action doesn't work well at forcing cartridges into the chamber, even compared to other lever actions. It's basically an AR with the gas system replaced by a manually operated rack and pinion.

[1hole]

Factory ammo is made for the "fire it and toss it" shooters, not reloaders. Factories can and do make ammo a tad smaller than SAAMI specs so it will easily but safely chamber in any normal chamber for one shot. Our sizer dies are typically made within SAAMI tolerances so a largish die may not size case bodies down enough to easily chamber in smallish chambers; it's no more complicated than that.

A lot of chambering problems can be solved by pushing a case fully into the FL sizer and, with the ram remaining fully up, look for a gap between the shell holder and die mouth with the press under full pressure. If there is a gap, screw the die down an eighth turn or less (about 8" thou) and try again; repeat if necessary.

[gmsharps]

I had a Belgian made BLR 308 years ago and the SB 308 sizing die did the trick.

gmsharps

[Larry Gibson]

Contrary to what's been stated the RCBS 308W X-die is not a SB die. RCBS does not list it as a SB die and it is recommended for use with all action types where as RCBS does not recommend the SB dies for other than pump and lever actions. However, as I previously mentioned, I have found cases properly sized with the X-die chamber just fine in all action types except those with special very tight match chambers. The BLR does not have such a chamber. Also with cases (milsurp or commercial) fired in that chamber and sized with the X-die will last for 20+ firings.....probably more w2ithout trimming.

RCBS does make a SB 3.08W die but it is not an X-die. With either the standard FL die or, especially the SB die, the cases will "stretch" and require trimming. Also case life will be shorter, much shorter, with incipient head separation occurring. RCBs does make standard and SB 223 x-dies. They also made an "AR X-Die set but I don't know if it's still available. I use 8 X-dies for various cartridges including the .308W and 223 Rem. They all are "standard" FL dies with the mandrel feature. I've yet to encounter any problems with any cases sized in them chambered in any rifles. That includes the 30-30 standard X-die which I use to size cases for use in 3 different rifles (2 M94s and a Contender Carbine).

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks Larry, I'll have to keep that in mind about the X dies. Tonight I'm going to double check that my dies are adjusted properly as 1hole suggested. Operator error causes most of my woes in life!

[Drm50]

The Browning BLR and BAR when made and assembled in Belgium had tight chambers. Only BLR I had was original in 243. Had several BARs and did use RCBS small base dies on it in 308. My crew got into BLR and BAR because of displeasure with Remington 742/760s mostly 30/06s. Rems had sloppy chambers as well as everything else.

[popper]

I have yet to trim any 308W brass. Did get a little crow trimmer for 30/30 and did some once, several years ago. Reminds me of sales guy at LGS (big box) selling a trimmer to a fellow reloading for 9mm pistol. IIRC the guy was told to anneal also.

[Gray Fox]

I recently got a more recent BLR .308 takedown with the laminated stock and have yet to load for it. I have the standard .308 die set, should this work OK? What about a Dillon sizer die for the 650? GF

[FergusonTO35]

Took a look at everything tonight and turns out my sizing die was not adjusted down all the way. Now that I think about it, the last time I loaded this cartridge was with a different press. Properly adjusted the die, sized a few rounds, and seated some bullets to try cycling them in the rifle. The rounds now go into battery *almost* all the way with out forcing them, hopefully the small base die will be the final piece of the puzzle.

[Larry Gibson]

I recently got a more recent BLR .308 takedown with the laminated stock and have yet to load for it. I have the standard .308 die set, should this work OK? What about a Dillon sizer die for the 650? GF

My standard RCBS, Dillon and Bonanza FL sizers just sit their boxes unused.........get the RCBS X-die.....It's all I've used for 12 + years......

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks, I'll remember that! Another question: will a 22-250 mag work in my .308 rifle? I found a nice one for about half the cost of a .308 mag. I notice Browning uses different part numbers for the .243, 7mm-08, and .308 mags even though bullet diameter is the only difference.

[Norske]

I'm not sure if it was for the "perch belly" BLR or the newer model, but Browning once had a magazine labeled 243, 308, 358. My gunsmith's 308 magazine works for my 358. the 22-250 magazine may not work because the case taper of a 250 Savage differs from the 308 taper. The magazine lips will differ.

[FergusonTO35]

That's what I was thinking. Probably just be easier to get the correct mag. I saw some NOS .358 mags on GB for like $40.00 each.

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, the Little Brown Santa Claus dropped off the small base die today. Got it in my hot little hands and made some ammo with 37 grains IMR 4895/180 grain W-W Power Points. Took the rifle and ammo out to my little range and tried it out. The rounds now slide in just fine for the most part, a couple of them were still a little sticky. Fired the rifle at 100 yards off a bipod and it will make three shot groups of around 1.25", which is pretty good for my shaky hands.

I never thought much about the .308 before but it is really starting to grow on me. The cartridge seems to really like reduced loads with heavier than usual bullets/boolits. May have to get a bolt gun to match!

[FergusonTO35]

So, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have the chamber honed or reamed a little bit bigger? If I get another .308 I would rather not keep two different loads for it, also it seems like this would make the rifle more reliable and put less wear on the rack and pinion mechanism.

[FergusonTO35]

Talked to the gunsmith, they said it would be no problem to run a finish reamer into the chamber and open it up a bit. I'll drop it off after the season, gonna have a trigger job done on it too.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont have one but dad does and i load for it. I load for a bunch of differnt 308s from ar10s the the blr and savage 99 to bolt guns that have loose chambers and tight. I dont even fool with anything but small base dies in 308s or 223s. Loaded like that i can grab any load in the house and know it will run in any gun. I havent seen doing it reduce accuracy even a small ammount and if brass life is less i doubt its much less and once fired brass for either of them is relatively cheap. So for the benift gained i see no negetives in using a small base die. No brainer if you ask me. You still can run into problems with once fired brass though. I had a cetme with a real loose chamber and even after small base sizing brass the die didnt size far enough down on the case to be able to use them in my tighter chambered 700 and model 7. The ran fine in my ar10 and the blr though and worked in the rest but some needed firm pressure to close the bolt. Really if my experience is the norm you will have more problems using brass fired in that blr in something else then you will once fired brass in your blr. Only guns ive had with looser chambers then the blr are that cetme and my ar10.

[Tatume]

I had a Belgian made BLR 308 years ago ...

Had the BLR even been invented in 1712? :-)

[FergusonTO35]

Yes, because JMB also invented time travel!

[gmsharps]

Had the BLR even been invented in 1712? :-)

Browning was a bit ahead of its time.

[silverbuzzard]

My BLR would not chamber RCBS sized cases, did not matter 3 different brands. Bought small base, problem solved

[FergusonTO35]

Update: the gunsmith examined the rifle and test fired with factory ammo and my reloads. She found that the chamber is very close to minimum SAAMI specs, and the BLR design apparently needs a snug chamber to maintain proper headspace. Said I could have it reamed if I wanted, but that could induce light strikes. I think I'll keep the rifle as it is for now and work on my loading technique. It would probably be more cost effective to just buy a cheap bolt action if I need a .308 that will eat anything.

[Norske]

It probably depends on whether the chambering reamer used for that particular rifle had been sharpened or not.

[Gundogx2]

My BLR reloaded were a little tight small base die cleaned it up. I could not work up a load that was as accurate as hornadys light magnums or whatever they call them now
It just clover leafs them


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[Lloyd Smale]

.

Small base Dies have long been the Gold Standard for reloading the Browning BLR.

yup just buy a set. the upside is your 308 ammo will run in any 308 and theres no down side. Some say less brass life but at most youll loose one or two firings and 308 brass is easy to find. Every 556 or 308 round i load anymore are done with small base dies.

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, I think I got the BLR brass straightened out. I compared neck and body measurements of the factory Norma rounds and fired brass, and some range pickup brass that had been run through the RCBS small base die. Little to no difference in the Norma rounds and brass which had been run through the RCBS sizer, however the latter still made the bolt hard to close. In fact, the fired Norma rounds chambered more easily. Got to thinking about it (a slow process!) and decided to resize the brass to to maximum possible. I removed the decapper pin from the die so there would be nothing at all impeding the round going fully into the die. That done, the resized rounds now chamber as easily as the factory Norma rounds.

I went ahead and pulled down all my reloaded rounds, ran them through the sizer, and trimmed the cases to 2.05 OAL. Then I reinstalled the decapper pin and ran them about halfway through the die to expand the neck just enough so bullets would seat straight. Loaded them up with my favorite .308 load of 37 grains IMR 4895/180 grain Winchester Power Point. Then, ran all the rounds through the mag and into the chamber of the rifle. To my delight, they all chambered and extracted just fine. So, I'm thinking maybe the decapper pin on the RCBS die was adjusted down a little too far, preventing the shoulder from getting bumped back enough. Hopefully I can try them out tomorrow.

[Prairie Cowboy]

The BLR acquires increased bolt travel (needed due to the rotating bolt) with reduced lever travel, by using the rack and pinion system. Unfortunately this system operates at a mechanical disadvantage, at the expense of weak primary extraction.
So, it's no surprise that loaded cartridges need to fit the chamber well.

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, tried out the BLR with my improved loads today. Happy to report that every round chambered just fine with no binding. Managed to make a 1" group at 85 yards with shooting sticks, which is about as good as I can do with most rifles. Thinking about adding another .308 to the battery, maybe a wood stocked Savage Axis.

[FergusonTO35]

Just thought I would update this old thread. Been shooting the BLR lately, and had some very sticky extraction with Armscor.308 147 grain FMJ. Pulled down the rounds and found they contain 44 grains of a ball powder. I would guess it's in the H-335 speed looking at the Hodgdon data. Backed down the charge by 15% to 37.5 and now all rounds eject slick as snot. They seem to shoot ok, the BLR has a horrible trigger pull and the barrel takes forever to cool.

[pietro]

the BLR has a horrible trigger pull


Yeah, they're notorious for that, and IME a real gunsmith (not some parts-changer) who can successfully fix that issue will be very hard to find - many will try, but few are chosen.

(Since they're not target trifles, I just lived with mine)

[FergusonTO35]

It's "ok" if you don't try to give it the traditional bolt action squeeze. The way I do it is place my finger flat against the trigger, and try to slowly press backwards. But yeah, the trigger pull plus the skinny barrel that heats up fast means accuracy will seldom match a standard sporter bolt action. Yesterday I was shooting it side by side with my Savage Axis, same ammo and distance for both rifles, and the difference was very obvious. Nonetheless, the BLR is a solid choice for someone who wants a faster, flatter shooting cartridge in a rifle about the same size and weight and same operating procedure as a 94/336.

[Ramjet-SS]

Been there done that. older Browning BLR need that small base die.