New Powder - Abysmal Failure

[memtb]

Admittedly, I’m very new with powder coating. My first two attempts gave fair results, but, seemingly a total failure with this new powder.

The powder is a gloss black, Polyester TGIC powder, with a 340 F cure temperature @10minutes time. Using a conventional oven (outside in pole barn) with a temperature gauge to keep temps close to the desired temp. As these are 400 grain, 45 caliber bullets, I went double the cook time to allow for the bullet mass to come up to temperature. Using S&B method, ambient humidity around 45%.

The only real significant difference from my previous attempts is that I used the silicon ice cube trays that others have used, and had good results.

My bullets had very poor coverage on the first coating, with more bullet exposed than covered. I did a another attempt on the bullets (2nd coat), still very little coverage.

I’m not sure were I went wrong, and really not begging for help....but wouldn’t refuse it either! I’m mostly venting in lieu of throwing things! However, throwing things may be more therapeutic! memtb

[popper]

Black doesn't flow well. Heat till it flows, melted. Cool second coat and bake normal.

[Conditor22]

popper's right, blacks can be a little tricky/finicky go get a good 1 coat coverage.

never leave the PC open any longer than you have to --- keep it dry.

poor coverage could stem from the boolit not being clean. IF I'm not coating my boolits right away I put them in zipper bags to keep them clean.

IF you really having problems warm you boolits in an oven set at 150° or less IF they are to hot to touch bear handed they are to hot to coat.

340° seems kind of low to me. when it says "10minutes time." there is usually a condition before that ie:
bake for xx minutes at xxx° AFTER (1) the alloy has reached xxx° or (2) the PC has flowed out

[slide]

I never had much luck with black either. Sounds like you may have overbaked the powder. Go to amazon get yourself a digital thermometer with a thermocouple. Drill a hole in a coated bullet and secure it with high heat aluminum tape. Put the bullet in with the next batch you bake. When you hit your temp mark start a timer or use your watch. Takes the guesswork out of it and it doesn't cost much.

[cwlongshot]

Yes I agree with above.

Dont fret much not all powders are created equil and you likely have a bugger!

As mentioned above. KEEP BULLETS CLEAN! Means NO TOUCHING! Warm the bullets before powder application. I like to lay a single Layer in a basket on too Of a heating toaster oven. NEVER HAD them get too Hot. Then swirl in new powder.

Keep Powder Sealed and dry as ya can. I dbl bag always.

400 AFTER FLOW @ 400! YES 100% les temp and time will
Have nice looking bullets!! BUT MAY NOT DO AS YOU EXPECT!! They could clash with powder, they could allow leading. They could foul the barrel.


REMEMBER, these powder where designed to be SPRAYED ON A ELECTRICALLY CHARGED SURFACE!! Tumble coating is NOT how they are designed to work. So finding some
Products that WONT WORK is EXPECTED!!

CW

[jessdigs]

Smokes black. One coat, shake and bake. Before and after bakinghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201002/8ad4fb2da2c4411db6b0fde873e86b70.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201002/320bc340e4fc35223c8a2fb782046608.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[memtb]

Conditor, I went to paperwork for powder to verify the temperature and duration.....340 @ 10 minutes with bullets at temperature. Hence, the reason for doubling+ the cook time! I used an IR gun, I know not as accurate as attaching a thermocouple.....but, I had one. Also, when coated 2nd time, bullets were warm....not hot.

cwlongshot, 400 degrees....even if paperwork indicates 340 degrees?

jessdigs, Rub it in!! :bigsmyl2: Also.....I didn’t get nearly the coverage your photo indicates prior to bake! memtb

[jessdigs]

Conditor, I went to paperwork for powder to verify the temperature and duration.....340 @ 10 minutes with bullets at temperature. Hence, the reason for doubling+ the cook time! I used an IR gun, I know not as accurate as attaching a thermocouple.....but, I had one. Also, when coated 2nd time, bullets were warm....not hot.

cwlongshot, 400 degrees....even if paperwork indicates 340 degrees?

jessdigs, Rub it in!! :bigsmyl2: Also.....I didn’t get nearly the coverage your photo indicates prior to bake! memtbI wasn't intending to rub it in, it was an endorsement for smokes powder. It's cheap, easy to get, and had been tried and proven. . You can even try a three pack sample for $23

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[memtb]

jessdigs, I was just kidding. Absolutely no hurt feeling on this end! :drinks: memtb

[OS OK]

hahahaaa . . . . bet'Cha I've heard this story now 100 times at least!

This is just part of the fun of PC'ing your casts ... we all go through this process to some extent...fails & successes but don't be discouraged, don't be throwing anything you want to use again for sure!

Some of us are luckier than others, especially having old'hands around that's 'been there & done that' ... these boys give good advice as you are reading above, don't discount little things like using a convection oven or a no. 5 plastic tub to shake them in or using little plastic BB's for enhanced static...or even double zip locking your powder in 2 bags & even storing it in the house where humidity should be less of a problem.

Not only are you learning a good lube process but this one, unlike the old lube sizer is an art form also.
You can't ruin a cast boolit...they remelt just fine and you start over again...

For me, I've tried lotz of colors and then got over that real quick when I found two powders I could blend together and get as good or better results as I could with the 'clear gloss', <prolly one of the best coverages ever.

"Hang in there and try to remember....Your having fun here!"

https://i.imgur.com/17RFpYP.jpg

Lotz of colors work like a champ ... find yours & stick with it, then you can look back and chuckle as you tell another 'Newb to the PC process' how to fix his problems.

https://i.imgur.com/2QybcYl.jpg

There's a lot of good information here too...

(2)...The Devil's in the Details>>>>>PC Coatings<<<<<
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?326134-(2)-The-Devil-s-in-the-Details-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt-PC-Coatings-lt-lt-lt-lt-lt

[Conditor22]

What is the brand and color name of your powder?

[bangerjim]

Why deviate from what works??????? Stick with Smoke's powders - he tests them B4 ever offering them on here. Off-brand powders can be really a hit and miss situation. All types powders are engineered to be applied with a coronal discharge static gun, not a plastic tub! Some just do not work that way. And MOST powders say 400F.

I would stick with 400 even if they say different. Overheating will not hurt the coating. And be sure the powder turns completely shiny B4 starting your cook timing. I use 10 min after shiny and every powder I have coats perfectly, including the dreaded HF matte black (all applied with an ESPC gun).

But black anything seems not to coat as well using the tumble method. I think it is the carbon black pigment that causes the coating problems.....it must minimize the weak static charge generated in the bowl. If you have divots, look closely and you will see that clear covering IS there, even though the black pigment is not. And the poly coating is what we are after, not the technicolor rainbow color schemes. [smilie=w:

Good luck!

[OS OK]

What is the brand and color name of your powder?

As far as I know Jim...it's been Sherwin Williams.

I get it in quart baggies from a powder coating contractor over in Auburn...never saw what boxes he gets it from.
On the black & white, I know it's from them, I asked and he said so.

On the brass & copper, I only suspect it...he gave me two bags of that stuff several years ago to try, he doesn't like it on large surfaces because he said it's splotchy.

I am surprised to hear that black is a troublesome PC ... hmmmm ... maybe it's the hot weather and low humidity out here that's an advantage in coating in the tub?

https://i.imgur.com/Y7zeEsA.jpg

The thing about PC & me is this...it needs to shake on quick, no two minutes of doing the juggle & if it doesn't coat in one coat and well...it's out'a here!

[memtb]

What is the brand and color name of your powder?

I’m using RAL 9004 (Signal Black) from Powder by the Pound.

bangerjim, Maybe I should try 400 F.....I guess that it couldn’t hurt!

OS Ok, Thanks for the positive feedback. I haven’t thrown in the towel yet....just a little bummed out! memtb

[bangerjim]

Never throw the towel in! Unless it is in your boolit casting drop pan of water! That is what I use to catch fresh hot drops without damage.

[memtb]

Never throw the towel in! Unless it is in your boolit casting drop pan of water! That is what I use to catch fresh hot drops without damage.


👍 Thanks! memtb

[Lloyd Smale]

ive had no problems with coverage usings smokes black. that said a few color did give me fits. The copper was the worse. But look at your bullets. If they have a shinny (looks like clear coat) coat on them there fine to shoot. Only thing your lacking is the color pigment and that doesnt do anything. IF you have dull lead spots on the bullets then your going to have to redo them.

[brassrat]

I had a lousy outcome with the HF black and was not gonna stop until I got some success. Without a long story that I can't remember, I mixed with acetone and let dry. After a few tries, I got some decent boolets.

[memtb]

Thanks guys! I’ll attempt to see if I have coverage....but, no color! And, I haven’t given-up yet. I really wanted to load and shoot some of these in my 460 XVR. I have enough “store bought” 395’s to get me through the hunting season, but, wanted to develop a load with my bullets. I was very successful with my 45-70 and was hoping for a “Instant Replay”! memtb

[memtb]

OS_OK.......beautiful bullets! When I grow up....I hope that my bullets can look that good! :-P memtb

[redhawk0]

I've had good luck with Smoke's powders as well as Eastwood. I just got some Mirror Black and Raspberry metallic from Eastwood. I did some "sperimenting" and mixed the Black 1/3 with 2/3 Rasp. and came up with a deep raspberry color I liked. Coverage was good even though I'm really not that picky...as long as it covers enough not to lead a barrel...I'm fine with it. I did the smash test with a boolit and not a single flake/chip. I call that a success.

redhawk

[GregLaROCHE]

Black, red and blue seem to all work well for me. I can’t remember where I bought it from over two years ago. Someplace on the east coast I think. My shop is on the humid side. Unprotected steel will start rusting after a week. Therefore I am very cautious about keeping my powder dry. Double bagging it with all air out and then in Tupperware and silica gel packs in each bag. They’re cheap insurance.

Try a bit of a proven powder to begin with. Make sure your boolits are free from contamination. Just your fingers can put oils on them. Make sure you have enough static electricity going on when you are shaking. The right type of plastic container and air soft BBs. You can pre heat the boolits 120*F and let them sit a few minutes so all humidity possible evaporates, then shake when they are still warm to touch. Bake hotter for longer. Start with 400*F for 30 minutes. You can experiment with reducing time and temperature when you have things working. You shouldn’t need two coats if you’re doing everything right. And of course keep your powder dry.

[gnappi]

I very much agree with the "find one that works and stick with it" mindset. At first I went color crazy, and I was lucky to find a guy selling various formulations from a buyer color selection and I found three attractive colors I can live with the rest of my life and I bought several pounds of each.

While those sexy black and copper colors still tempt me, I'm "sticking" to what works flawlessly here in humid south Florida.

[memtb]

Humidity here is generally not a problem....except lack of. Sometimes in single digits in summer.

I would like to the colors looking like freshly cast bullets, but, for two of the bullets ....it’s to avoid any possible mix-ups. I’ve got 400 grainers for my handgun, and 430’s for my rifle....both with the same profile. Really easy to get them mixed up! Everything else that I cast for, can be easily recognized for what they are....they may all end up being silver!

Low temperatures may have been my issue, I tried to follow the written directions.....go figure! :groner: memtb

[Conditor22]

RAL 9004 SIGNAL BLACK - POLYESTER TGIC WEATHER RESISTANT POWDER COATING FOR INTERIOR OR EXTERIOR APPLICATIONS
CURE SCHEDULE = 340F/10 MIN @ PART METAL TEMPERATURE
GLOSS LEVEL = 85% ON 60 DEGREE METER
RECOMMENDED MIL THICKNESS = 2.0 – 3.0 MILS
SPECIFIC GRAVITY = 1.2 – 1.8
THEORETICAL COVERAGE = 51.5 SQ. FT.
SALT SPRAY RESULTS = 1,000+ HOURS

cook time/temperature does not affect coverage. that is a coating issue

pictures would be helpfull

TGIC GLOSS LEVEL = 85% should work better than that.

what caliber/siz boolit are you coating?
what container are you using? --- Cool whip 8 ounces are the standard, I like the 16 ounce ones better (#5 recycle)
what recycle number on the container?
are you using airsoft BB's?
are the boolits 100% clean? You don't need to water drop, just drop them on an old towel. it's too easy to contaminate boolits water dropping them
how much powder are you using? a couple of teaspoons full goes a long way (too much powder limits the friction and static build up)
how many boolits are you coating at a time too few boolits also limits friction and static buildup

a little more information and I'm sure we can figure this out :)

[charlie b]

I wonder if the fast cure time of that powder is part of the problem.

The Eastwood I use needs about 5min at 450F to flow, then another 20min at 400F to cure. That implies it remains a bit 'soft' for a lot longer, which may allow better coverage.

[memtb]

Contitor22, I do my best to give good information.

Bullet: 45 caliber - 400 grains - They were water dropped - Powder Coated 100 bullets
Container: 80 oz., Cottage Cheese, #5
Airsoft BB’s: Did not use
Powder Quantity: Did not measure, started with approximately 2 tablespoons, when looked at, did not appear to have good coverage.....added another 1 to 2 tablespoons
Clean Bullets: stored in closed plastic container since casting....I think that they were clean
I was casting three (3) different bullets at the same time, all water dropped into same bucket. The other bullets, while not as pretty as those of other shooters, they were acceptable.


Judging from your list of potential problems....I may “check the box” on several! Too much powder may be the most glaring offense!

I hope that this information will give some insight into my issues.

I wish to Thank You, and all of the others that have offered assistance! memtb

If the picture does not give sufficient detail....I’ll try again.

https://i.imgur.com/wHkNaB9l.jpg

[redhawk0]

My guess is that you didn't generate any static. The AirSoft BBs really do help. I use an ice cream container #5 so the container you are using is likely adequate. That's a lot of powder. I use AS-BBs and for a batch of 100 .458 boolits I might have 1.5 T total. And still some left over.

I've never used the powder you've called out. It could very well be the powder itself. That really is a low temp/short bake from anything else I've ever used. I monitor my temperature to 390-405*F but I do set my timer for 26 minutes for a 20 minute powder cure to ensure the boolits are getting up to temp (I preheat my oven too).

try some AirSoft BBs next time and see if things improve. Shake a good 2-3 minutes (swirl and shake up and down)

redhawk

[OS OK]

https://i.imgur.com/wHkNaB9l.jpg

These look to be coated with the clear base, looks like there's not enough pigment & what is there is clumping together.
Is that how that particular PC is designed to look?
What do the factory samples look like?

[memtb]

redhawk0, my thoughts as well. Awaiting the consensus among those much more knowledged than I.

OS_OK, It’s supposed to be full coverage, pretty and shiny!


https://i.imgur.com/UrNwdhgl.png

[codarnall]

Someone mentioned polyester powder , poor choice in general. Time to look-up cross-linking polyurethanes. Cross-linking is what makes a coating extremely hard (strong) in that it is a three dimensional polymer molecule which is very stable for a long time at 400F forever.---Charlie

[Conditor22]

the picture tells me that one or more of these occured:
1) not enough static was built up
2) the boolit got contaminated
3) the powder needs BB's or Poly Pellets (something) to help build static
4) that powder formulation is not suitable for ASBBDT (I've had some powder that I swore would work but I bouldn't get them to coat well no matter what I tried)

I think it was 2)

try casting some more and NOT water dropping them (or clean them with either Acetone or mineral spirits). when they cool to the touch, PC them. try 2 teaspoons and 20-40 boolits and see what happens if the loose powder disappears from the bottom of the tub add a couple more teaspoons of PC

some PC works fine/great without BB's, some need the extra static the bb's help build.

only water drop IF you clean the bucket and replace the water EVERY TIME. It gets contaminated too easily and messes up coating- prevent powder from sticking.

You gain very little by water dropping the baking process takes out most of the hardness gained. many people drop boolits onto a towel, commercial casters drop them right on top of other boolits . I'm assuming 45/70 so you really don't need the extra hardness.

[memtb]

Just an acknowledgement of thanks again. I’ve not forgotten you guys, but, will be away from internet for a day or two. l’ll be back! memtb

[dryflash3]

https://i.imgur.com/rhi0eRGl.jpg

Black from Smoke works fine for me, 1 coat.

[gnappi]

Contitor22, I do my best to give good information.

Bullet: 45 caliber - 400 grains - They were water dropped - Powder Coated 100 bullets
Container: 80 oz., Cottage Cheese, #5
Airsoft BB’s: Did not use
Powder Quantity: Did not measure, started with approximately 2 tablespoons, when looked at, did not appear to have good coverage.....added another 1 to 2 tablespoons
Clean Bullets: stored in closed plastic container since casting....I think that they were clean
I was casting three (3) different bullets at the same time, all water dropped into same bucket. The other bullets, while not as pretty as those of other shooters, they were acceptable.


Judging from your list of potential problems....I may “check the box” on several! Too much powder may be the most glaring offense!

I hope that this information will give some insight into my issues.

I wish to Thank You, and all of the others that have offered assistance! memtb

If the picture does not give sufficient detail....I’ll try again.

https://i.imgur.com/wHkNaB9l.jpg

I bought some powder that came out looking almost EXACTLY like that, maybe even a little worse. I thought it may be humidity, not shaking long enough, etc. but I tried the same powder on a length of steel swag lamp chain and it came out EXCELLENT looking with a finish deep and shiny just like a black 1940's Buick!

[GregLaROCHE]

Can you use mineral sprits to clean boolits before coating? Acetone ok, but isn’t mineral spirits petroleum based and oil could cause problems?

[Dragonheart]

Some information straight from Prismatic Powders regarding second coats for lower temp cure powders.

"For thicker substrates, which require long bake times a substitute cure schedule of 20 mins at 350°F may be used. As always, the cure time starts when the substrate reaches temperature. Note: Each additional coat of powder coating will act as an insulator, which will l require additional time for the substrate to reach temperature. Extend cure times as needed."

This is a good example of why I use thermocouples. If you don't measure they you are guessing.