Centerfire Guns Used As In-Line Muzzleloaders

[Good Cheer]

Anyone here using center fire cartridge guns as in-line muzzleloaders?
Break over single shots, bolt actions, rifles, shotguns?

[Nobade]

I worked on one for a customer yesterday. Rem 700, 45 caliber conversion set up for smokeless powder. Uses arrowhead rifles breech plug and primer carriers, burns 90 grains of Benchmark behind a 375 grain jacketed bullet. I sure don't want to shoot that but he says it really works well.
Today I noticed McGowen makes 425 caliber barrels, that should take unsized 416 bullets. Thinking of building one for myself just to see how it works.

[444ttd]

i still have a tc encore 50 cal muzzleloader but i don't hunt with it anymore. its too much like my 444 marlin or 500 linebaugh tc encore barrels. i have killed deer with it, using pyrodex pellets, hornady sabot bullets and a 209 primer. it ain't fer me. i like flintlocks.

[rking22]

Made a breech plug (45-70)that had no rim and took a 209 primer. Proof of concept, it worked, it was boring. I like flint locks better as well. My modern muzzle loader is a 54 underhammer, round ball gun using #11 caps.
Friend used the idea for a CVA break open 45-70. His son loves it and he is thinking of getting himself one.

[bedbugbilly]

Short Lane sells breech inserts so you can easily convert a single barrel shotgun into a muzzle loading shotgun and use shotgun primers. Pretty slick!

https://www.gunadapters.com/209-muzzle-loading-adapters/

[charlie b]

Yes. Even gun mfgs agree. Thompson Center and CVA make a living off their break open designs. Remington and Savage both had ML versions of their bolt guns. There are even inserts for your break open shotgun to shoot some centerfire cartridges (not all calibers can be shot this way).

Can you do a home garage version? Yep. If you do it properly and use quality material and have decent metal work skills.

[arcticap]

****Converting inlines to accept primed cartridge cases.****

Snidely70431 constructed home made breech plugs for a CVA and a Rossi inline from Grade 8 crown bolts.
Then he drilled chambers into the bolts to fit a variety of primed cartridge cases to ignite the powder with.
The cartridge case actually becomes the powder chamber because there's no flash hole in the breech plug, which allows the powder to flow right into the brass case.

Here's 2 photos and a link to his thread with more pix. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/breech-plugs-for-break-action-inlines-using-cartridges.846989/#post-11039281

These [below] are the breech plugs made for the CVA V2 line of break actions. The one at the top takes a .38 Special cartridge, the one in the middle a .223/5.56 cartridge shortened to 1", and the bottom a 9mm Luger.

268672

268673

[Good Cheer]

Nobody uses primed cases and muzzleloaded boolits sized to suit the barrels of their center fire rifles?

[Nobade]

Nobody uses primed cases and muzzleloaded boolits sized to suit the barrels of their center fire rifles?Not if you don't want to get shot. Loading a firearm from the front while it has a primed case in the chamber is never a good idea.

[arcticap]

Not if you don't want to get shot. Loading a firearm from the front while it has a primed case in the chamber is never a good idea.

There's a loading procedure to avoid that safety issue.
A person could ram the round ball/projectile first before inserting a sealed cartridge filled with powder.
And they can also dump some extra powder/filler in from the chamber/breech end to fill up the air space before inserting the cartridge.
They could use a ramrod that was precisely measured to seat the projectile at a specific spot in the barrel which would control how much extra powder/filler to add.
It may require some trial & error to determine the proper ramming distance for loading the optimum amount of extra powder.
But once that's established, it would be similar to loading a Sharp's breech loading percussion rifle, except the projectile would be loaded at the muzzle.
Using this method would basically only require that the gun be loaded with the powder and brass case while being held with the muzzle pointed down toward the ground to let gravity work.

[scattershot]

Sorta sounds like the long way around the barn, to me.

[Good Cheer]

Not if you don't want to get shot. Loading a firearm from the front while it has a primed case in the chamber is never a good idea.

I'll be sure and pull the rocks out of my flinters during loading.

[Nobade]

Well, I don't load my flintlocks when the pan is primed and it's cocked either...

[charlie b]

Nobody uses primed cases and muzzleloaded boolits sized to suit the barrels of their center fire rifles?

Why would you want to?

[Good Cheer]

Well, I don't load my flintlocks when the pan is primed and it's cocked either...

That's pretty much on the mark. There's no need to load a firearm when it's cocked. And if you couldn't figure out how to load the firearm without it being cocked then that's not one you would want to use for muzzleloading.

[pietro]

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I converted a .45-70 Ruger #1 rifle to a .45 muzzleloader 20 years ago for an acquaintance. :shock:

The .45-70 chamber was bored/threaded from the rear for a Remington 700ML breech plug I ordered directly from Remington.

The threading allowed the breech plug's position to be adjusted, in reference from the face of the CF falling block's to the seated percussion cap when the breech was closed. (ignition was constant after adjustment)

Due to the Ruger's steel forend hanger close beneath the barrel, I didn't make any alterations for mounting a ramrod - so the owner bought/used a telescoping RR from a H&R, which he somehow carried in his belt.

Needless to say, it takes him a bit of time to get off subsequent shots - but so far he hasn't needed a 2nd shot to drop a deer.

He was using Remington .45 sabot ammo that use a .357 boolit - but IDK what he's using today.


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[Drm50]

A friend of my dad built a in line ML out of a 98 Mauser back in late 50s. Stocked it like a Weatherby and had a low power scope on it. Actually the guy wasn’t much of a hunter but when Ohio first got ML season he loved to jack wardens with that gun. He would walk along the road and wardens would lock up their breaks, thinking they caught a poacher red handed.

I once used a trapdoor 45/70 as a muzzle loader. I had breech plugs with 209 primers. You ejected plug just as empty case. I was in parking lot at state hunting area when warden pulled in. He didn’t like my rifle. He didn’t cite me, gave me a choice of going home or going to cnty jail. He didn’t like me anyway. Had 30+ year running squabble with him.

[Good Cheer]

Got some paper patched I make for the .40 bore percussion that might work in the .41 mag single shot.

[Brick85]

What I want to figure out how to do is turn some old shotgun or centerfire rifle into a flintlock or better yet some kind of electrical ignition to get around the shortage and unavailability of primers.

[Good Cheer]

Are 209 primers hard to find now?
Thinking that putting a new primer in an empty shot shell is pretty easy and muzzleloading shot is easy too. There's probably videos on the interseine showing how to do it.

That reminds me of a project I wanted to try years ago, a bolt action 20 gauge with rifled barrel to shoot minies out of trimmed back plastic empties.

[country gent]

The early long range target shooters in some countries didnt trust like the new fangled fixed cartridges and continued to load the early cartridge single shots from the muzzle. A later version of this was in the shutzen matches where the bullet was breech seated into the rifling and a charged case behind it.

I have seen HR single shots converted to muzzle loaders. Some were fairly crude with just a breech plug fitted and the chamber left in the back, but if you used enough powder to get to or ahead of it they shot decent. Others were done as a stub barrel and very nice.

Dine right a bolt action with extractor and ejector altered for the 209 primers would be interesting.

[KCSO]

I have done conversions for both the Remington rolling block and the trapdoor and both worked well.

[Good Cheer]

Shooting the single shot .41 mag like a .40-65, .40-72 or .40-82 could be just too much fun.

[Jedman]

I have converted several 45-70 H&R handi rifles to smokeless powder muzzleloaders. I make a homemade breech plug that uses a no. 60 O ring in front of a 209 size primer and it seals well. The rifles use a 45/40 cal. sabot and your choice of 40 cal. Boolit. I have shot deer with the Hornady tipped 40 cal. 200 gr. and a 230 gr. FN cast boolit.
Being the pressure doesn’t create breech thrust on the frame this works fine using a SB 1 receiver on a handi rifle.
For the ramrod I use the H&R type that extends by unscrewing the 2 pc. brass rod and using a Huntsman forend or a modified H&R rifle or shotgun forend .
This makes a nice combo rifle/ muzzleloader or shotgun / muzzleloader.

Jedman

[FergusonTO35]

I would love it if there was a way to proof a quality inline for low pressure smokeless powder use. I'm talking like shotgun pressure, not anything like centerfire rifle.

[pietro]

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AFAIK, Savage, Remington & T/C muzzleloaders were based on the Model 110, Model 700 & Encore (respectively) CF rifles, which have NP with the pressures - but there's no other inline front stuffer that I'd even think of using smokeless powder in. (YMMV, of course)

My state, and doubtless others, specifically designate black powder (or a BP substitute) for muzzleloader hunting.

[Jedman]

I would love it if there was a way to proof a quality inline for low pressure smokeless powder use. I'm talking like shotgun pressure, not anything like centerfire rifle.

There are many inline muzzleloaders that would be safe to shoot with smokeless powder at shotgun pressures but your on your own for loading data. Many quality muzzleloader barrels are 4140 steel and would be perfectly safe but you wount get the manufacturer to ever say it’s safe. Load data I have seen for the Savage smokeless MZ would scare the hell out of me even in their rifles. If I were to experiment using smokeless in a quality inline with 209 primers I would never use a full bore size bullet . Always use a sabot, compare what you are loading to something similar in a lower pressure cartridge then start a little lower. For example say you have a 45 cal. muzzleloader and want to shoot a 40 cal. boolit at lower pressure - think of the 38-40 cartridge with smokeless load data. Using a slower powder such as I 4198 or R 7 you can load whatever will fit in a 38-40 case with a 200 gr. Lead bullet and be within sammi limits and get reasonably hi velocities.
I am not giving any load recommendations but whatever velocities are possible with black powder and a given weight of boolit it is possible to duplicate or improve upon with smokeless at the same pressures.
Myself and several other I know have done quite a bit of testing smokeless loads with slower burn rate powders and realize we are in uncharted waters but don’t push it for anything near what they say a Savage is capable of and have not had any indications we are stressing the gun.

Jedman

[Jedman]

Not to get to far off topic of this thread but it is still kinda the same thing is I took a early H&R 58 cal. Huntsman muzzleloader and lathe bored the breech end of the barrel to use 24 ga. shotgun hulls. It is shot with smokeless powder in a plastic hull with either a 54 cal. lead round ball in a 24 ga. Plastic wad or with a Lyman hollow based 58 cal. mini ball and roll crimped.
It is a proven pig killer !

Jedman

[725]

Just for giggles, I took a used shotgun hull and trimmed the plastic all the way down to the brass, primed the brass, chambered it and then loaded the shotgun as if it were a ML. 12 ga., patched .7?? ball over some triple seven and it worked fine. I was more interested in "what if" than finding an alternate to my regular ML. Like I said, it worked, but loading a primed piece was more excitement than I cared for. Stupid is as stupid does, as they say.

[charlie b]

ML a modern shotgun and you have the choke to deal with.

Why not load it from the breech? Shove a bullet in there, maybe a ball inside a plastic wad? Add powder. Add 'cap'.

[FergusonTO35]

I am quite happy with Triple 7 in both my inlines and sidelocks. If I was stuck with nothing but awful Pyrodex, I would definitely be inclined to do some modest experimentation with a strong rifle.

[goblism]

I have a 40 cal muzzleloader on a 700 action. Smokeless powder. Thing is amazingly accurate (under 2" groups at 300 yards, likely can do better as the shooter is what limits it's ability) and packs a punch of 275 gr at 2900 fps. Action and breech plug can both handle more pressure but I don't like to push it nearly as hard as some of the smokeless guys out there.
Breech plug has hard brass modules that load a large rifle magnum primer as well.
There are actually guys out there that seem to be outshooting cartridge type rounds using their custom muzzleloaders, we are talking well below MOA at 1000+ yards!

[HumptyDumpty]

Hmmm, it sounds to me as though you gentlemen are simply inventing a more difficult way of loading black-powder cartridges.

[FergusonTO35]

Thing is, in most places black powder cartridges are legally the same thing as the 6.5-378 Saturn Rocket Magnum that was invented yesterday. Meaning, they can only be used during modern firearms season.

[HumptyDumpty]

Ahh, I hadn't thought of that.

[Jedman]

Really I don’t shoot my muzzleloaders much anymore and we have a short muzzleloader season for deer. I wanted a smokeless muzzleloader strictly out of laziness, I hate cleaning black powder guns !
I don’t try getting superior ballistics than I can with real BP as I have shot many deer with real BP and have never had to shoot past 100 yards in nearly 50 years of deer hunting. In fact I have killed more with my little Hopkins Allen 45 cal. buggy rifle with a 20” barrel and round ball twist than any of my larger more powerful muzzleloaders.

Jedman

[Agrotom]

Heck I just want to buy another gun. Why fool around with an insert?

[FergusonTO35]

Heck I just want to buy another gun. Why fool around with an insert?

Best possible answer!!

[FergusonTO35]

Don't some states have a "primitive rifle" season these days? As in single shot and at least .35 caliber straight wall cartridge? Would love to see that happen here.

[mooman76]

Most states do have a primitive season but they all define it differently. Most will also be 45 or larger for muzzle loaders for deer.

[444ttd]

here in PA, we have two muzzleloader seasons. the first one(happens to be this Saturday) is a modern and traditional muzzleloaders that goes sat-sat. then we have a flintlock season that goes from dec 26 thru jan 18, 2021. i luv flintlocks. this year will be my last modern muzzleloader season. i'm going traditional flintlocks.

[pietro]

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The primitive/muzzleloading season here bans muzzle loading barrels on repeating shotguns.

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[rockrat]

We have to use black powder or its substitutes. No pellets, no sabots and no optics and no double rifles, only single barrel guns. IIRC, 45 cal min. for deer, 50 cal for Elk

[Drm50]

Ours is 38 minimum, muzzle loading. I have lost track of all the stuff they have come up with. The only thing Ohio laws restrict is traditional rifle hunter. When I was younger I didn’t pay much attention to their stupid restrictions. I used single shot BP cartridge rifles all the time.

[FergusonTO35]

Looks like Louisiana and Mississippi allow single shot rifles using straight wall cartridges of at least .375 caliber during muzzleloader season.

[Good Cheer]

Yep they do, like a single shot is a single shot.