In search of that magic handgun boolit

[tazman]

Being an incurable optimist, I have spent lots of money and time searching for a combination of components and alloys that would make that perfect cartridge that gives one hole groups with whatever I might be shooting at the time.
I can't begin to say how many molds I have tried as well as powder combinations.
Load development has been a constant search for smaller groups.

During this process, I have discovered many things. Some helped a little and some were things not to do ever again.

The main thing I found was that the loads(for my handguns)will always shoot better than I can. Whenever I shoot my guns from a rest, the groups are nice and tight with almost any load I try.
Also that any improvements were always in very small increments.
Some "improvements", while making a statistical difference, didn't translate to a difference on the target. At normal for me handgun ranges, extreme spreads didn't show up on the target.

I found that most loads listed in the manuals were good shooting loads provided I was using middle of the range data. Maximum loads could be problematic.
I also found that less than maximum loads were easier on the gun and my hands.

I have come to the conclusion that the only way for me to get near that magic one hole group is to spend my time at the range trying to perfect my shooting form. I have a couple of things that need work, even after years of shooting. Some of the things I was doing were less than productive. Any

In the last few years, my groups have gotten smaller. Enough so that I am confident in my ability to use my handguns in a defensive scenario. Because of my age and the accompanying physical deterioration, I will never be a competitive shooter. I just enjoy shooting and watching the holes appear where I am aiming.
Getting a little better and enjoying the time I spend shooting is more productive than the search for the impossible.

[Thumbcocker]

To those searching for the one hole group good for you. The journey is the destination. If you enjoy the process go for it.

I also have reached the point that I want to shoot good loads more and experiment less.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[white eagle]

I like you was in search for the perfect load and boolit combo that would bring me the marvelous groups
problem was I was trying to get groups like I do with my rifles,mistake.I made changes in my expectations
in groups and like you practiced on form and follow through especially follow through and things are looking up

[mattw]

Taz, my eyesight in the last few years has caused my groups to go to you know where. There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol, but still do and still enjoy those days. I am extremely nearsighted 20/800 and 20/850, but my eyes will change from day to day and are affected by high ambient light levels. I realize that I will never shoot great groups with open sight handguns again and red dots help a bunch but are not perfect either. The part that sucks... I am only 55. I never have a day that I cannot shoot the CCW target to a pass with a 90% or more score. I think it is muscle memory for me because I really dislike the glock frame angle and could not pass the test on a good day with one. But, with a 1911 grip angle or a S&W revolver there are no issues at all.

[frkelly74]

Ah yes, the magic boolit. I was just trying to explain that to the wife. She didn't get it at all. So then I was trying to justify the practice time.... she didn't get that either.

[500Smith]

You have the right attitude tazman. In most cases the best in any sport are the one's who put in the most time.
Top shooters shoot an insane amount of ammo.

[Burnt Fingers]

Some boolits are more accurate than others. However you still have to be able to shoot them accurately.

In the last Defensive pistol match at my club I came the closest ever to having a perfect match.

I went down two point in 130+ rounds.

7 of 8 stages were perfect. I'll never be as fast as the younger healthier guys, but I'm a LOT more accurate than they are. The average points down at this match was over 35, that's with 22 shooters.

[dverna]

Most small groups shot with pistols are not repeatable. Many are a result of luck. There was a guy here who claimed MOA with a .44 mag...yeah...sure. Hard to believe people accept stuff like.

BTW, I have started getting more "realistic" with rifle loads too. 1.5 MOA (5 shots...repeatable) is good enough for a bolt action 400 yard deer rifle.

[downzero]

I'm starting to think it's the range of loads that make any gun fun. Like with 38/357, 105 grain SWC at 600 or 158 grain at 1200 fps, massive difference between the two.

[megasupermagnum]

Most small groups shot with pistols are not repeatable. Many are a result of luck. There was a guy here who claimed MOA with a .44 mag...yeah...sure. Hard to believe people accept stuff like.

BTW, I have started getting more "realistic" with rifle loads too. 1.5 MOA (5 shots...repeatable) is good enough for a bolt action 400 yard deer rifle.

I find it best to just let those people be. If they were as good as they say they are, we would all know their name from the competitions they win. They are happy, so I'm happy, so I let them do their thing.

There are 2 sure fire ways to get 1 hole groups. Either only fire one round, or get really close. :bigsmyl2:

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I try my loads at 30 feet offhand. Unless I'm having a bad day I can tell pretty easy if they are accurate. Then I will shoot some steel further out. My "cute" 4" K-38 likes 148 grain tumble lube style soup cans over 3.2 grains of bullseye. And that round would drop pests up to racoon size no problem. May take it out for a grouse hunt next week since I just got a holster for it.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

There are quite a few run of the mill bullseye shooters who can hold an inch at 50' one handed. That was with .22rf.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Some boolits are more accurate than others. However you still have to be able to shoot them accurately.

In the last Defensive pistol match at my club I came the closest ever to having a perfect match.

I went down two point in 130+ rounds.

7 of 8 stages were perfect. I'll never be as fast as the younger healthier guys, but I'm a LOT more accurate than they are. The average points down at this match was over 35, that's with 22 shooters.

Good your still doing it. I used to really enjoy that back in the day.

[ABJ]

I like you do enjoy the chase of the one hole group. More so with revolvers than anything else. Most of my guns do have thier boolit they pefer, and in a few cases that boolit works in several guns. Once I find that combo, I let go of the bags and shoot offhand. My new fav is a Ruger flattop 44 special. With practice I can hit cowboy silly's from the chicken all the way out to the Ram(100 meters.) This is the only gun I can do that with. My other guns do have a one hole load but not when I stand up and shoot it. When you find and accurate handgun that fits your hand and can see the sights, then practice, practice,practice. It does pay off when you have to switch guns.
I do belive in,(does the gun fit your hand and trigger finger) I have seen too many times someone struggle until they get a gun that fits. When they do, thier whole shooting world opens up. I have that problem with double stacks, they don't fit my hand.
Tony

[tazman]

Taz, my eyesight in the last few years has caused my groups to go to you know where. There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol, but still do and still enjoy those days. I am extremely nearsighted 20/800 and 20/850, but my eyes will change from day to day and are affected by high ambient light levels. I realize that I will never shoot great groups with open sight handguns again and red dots help a bunch but are not perfect either. The part that sucks... I am only 55. I never have a day that I cannot shoot the CCW target to a pass with a 90% or more score. I think it is muscle memory for me because I really dislike the glock frame angle and could not pass the test on a good day with one. But, with a 1911 grip angle or a S&W revolver there are no issues at all.

I am also very nearsighted in my aiming eye. I couldn't see the sights clearly with my glasses on. What I have come up with for a solution to the problem, is to have my normal prescription for my off eye and no prescription at all for my aiming eye. This allows my aiming eye to see the sights clearly and get my alignment right. Due to the prescription in front of my off eye, I can also see the target clearly. Since I always shoot with both eyes open, it works well for me. When I started doing this, my groups shrunk noticeably due to the improved alignment.
I still have a lot of work to do with trigger control and holding steady. I am not sure the holding steady part will ever get much better.


There are quite a few run of the mill bullseye shooters who can hold an inch at 50' one handed. That was with .22rf.

I have a couple of 22rimfire guns that will do that. I have to mount an optic and use a rest to get that out of them. My skills aren't good enough without help.
It has been a while since I tested any of my centerfire handguns with a rest. Might be interesting to experiment with. I have mostly been happy with 3 inches or under at about 40 feet offhand.

[dverna]

I find it best to just let those people be. If they were as good as they say they are, we would all know their name from the competitions they win. They are happy, so I'm happy, so I let them do their thing.

There are 2 sure fire ways to get 1 hole groups. Either only fire one round, or get really close. :bigsmyl2:

I have challenged them occasionally. Especially when I see a lot of posts from others applauding someone's abilities. It gives credence to spurious claims and that set up unrealistic expectations for those who do not know better.

I had the good fortune to be mentored by a very good Bullseye shooter and he had a Ransom Rest. We had a cement pier at the range for mounting the rest and tested many loads, bullets and high end target guns at 50 yards. It was enlightening. When someone claims groups better than can be achieved from that kind of setup, it is BS. We only shot autoloaders and 50 shot groups.

BTW, we were never able to shoot cast bullets (using H&G molds) that outperformed the Remington 148 gr HBWC. His Clark .38 would put 50 into 2.5". My mentor sleeved a Douglas 1-10 barrel into a spare barrel I had for my M52 and it could do 3 1/4". This was 45 years ago but I doubt target pistols have improved much. Eley Pistol Match out of his Clark .22 or my Hi-Standard shot into 1.5"....the closest we got to "one hole" groups.

[megasupermagnum]

I have challenged them occasionally. Especially when I see a lot of posts from others applauding someone's abilities. It gives credence to spurious claims and that set up unrealistic expectations for those who do not know better.

I had the good fortune to be mentored by a very good Bullseye shooter and he had a Ransom Rest. We had a cement pier at the range for mounting the rest and tested many loads, bullets and high end target guns at 50 yards. It was enlightening. When someone claims groups better than can be achieved from that kind of setup, it is BS. We only shot autoloaders and 50 shot groups.

BTW, we were never able to shoot cast bullets (using H&G molds) that outperformed the Remington 148 gr HBWC. His Clark .38 would put 50 into 2.5". My mentor sleeved a Douglas 1-10 barrel into a spare barrel I had for my M52 and it could do 3 1/4". This was 45 years ago but I doubt target pistols have improved much. Eley Pistol Match out of his Clark .22 or my Hi-Standard shot into 1.5"....the closest we got to "one hole" groups.

I've seen the claim before that a person can outshoot a ransom rest. All I can say to that, is they obviously were using a hokey set up. If you get a machine rest bolted down to a non-movable object, and set it up as intended, it will not fail. I wish I had one, but I can't justify the cost. If the grip inserts were cheaper, I would probably buy one.

The other thing is how the test is performed. You say you did 50 shot groups, and I'm guessing those were fired as quick as you could run the machine. That is a good way to simulate a competition setting, and you are showing the potential from a hot gun. Some guys do less shots, or do averages. Some only do 3 shots, and call it a group, and that is where a lot of internet lore comes from. My own testing, without a ransom rest, I decided on doing averages. I do this #1 it makes it easier on me, the shooter, to only focus for 5-8 shots at a time. Then I get a break, and do it again, and again until I get a nice number, usually around 30 shots total fired. I then measure each group, and average them. #2, it shows how the gun performs from a cool barrel, which I'm more interested in as a hunter.

Your numbers are very realistic. As of right now, my most accurate revolver shot an average at 50 yards of 3.05". That is extraordinary by my count, and it took a lot of work to get there. So to hear some say they get 1/2" 50 yard groups from a revolver, well we know the truth. Mechanically a revolver or semi-auto is not capable of that kind of accuracy no matter what you do. It's hard enough to do it with a purpose built bolt action with no moving parts!

[Drm50]

I will fool around until I get a bullet and powder load that I feel is about the best you can do for that particular firearm. I write it down in a binder I’ve keep for better than 50yrs. That’s end of the story, except I have been forced into other components because something gets discontinued. I not saying there might be something a tad better. I’ll never know because once I bench a gun to sight it in, it never goes to bench again. I never got off bench resting. I quit shooting groundhogs from rest when I was in my 40s. I let kids shoot with the varmit gun and I was back up with a deer rifle. Walk around fence lines popping at groundhogs with handgun is good practice. I can’t think of anything more practical. Shooting stationary targets from rest doesn’t translate into anything useful
I have buddies who shoot benchrest. They are hard to beat at their own game.

[44MAG#1]

This is something I have been saying for years with no one ever listening. The BIGGEST FACTOR in the equation of accuracy IS THE SHOOTER. As long as one makes sure they have a "decent" load accuracy-wise then they get up off the sandbagged benchrest and start practicing on their shooting form, fundamentals and mindset they would be better off.
But, who will listen, very, very few. They are looking for the magic load that will turn a mediocre shooter into and average shooter an average shooter into a good shooter and a good shooter into a near perfect shooter. Most of us have gone through it sometime in their shooting career but then we have to deal with that old ugly thing called reality.
Sometimes reality can be nasty to us.






Being an incurable optimist, I have spent lots of money and time searching for a combination of components and alloys that would make that perfect cartridge that gives one hole groups with whatever I might be shooting at the time.
I can't begin to say how many molds I have tried as well as powder combinations.
Load development has been a constant search for smaller groups.

During this process, I have discovered many things. Some helped a little and some were things not to do ever again.

The main thing I found was that the loads(for my handguns)will always shoot better than I can. Whenever I shoot my guns from a rest, the groups are nice and tight with almost any load I try.
Also that any improvements were always in very small increments.
Some "improvements", while making a statistical difference, didn't translate to a difference on the target. At normal for me handgun ranges, extreme spreads didn't show up on the target.

I found that most loads listed in the manuals were good shooting loads provided I was using middle of the range data. Maximum loads could be problematic.
I also found that less than maximum loads were easier on the gun and my hands.

I have come to the conclusion that the only way for me to get near that magic one hole group is to spend my time at the range trying to perfect my shooting form. I have a couple of things that need work, even after years of shooting. Some of the things I was doing were less than productive. Any

In the last few years, my groups have gotten smaller. Enough so that I am confident in my ability to use my handguns in a defensive scenario. Because of my age and the accompanying physical deterioration, I will never be a competitive shooter. I just enjoy shooting and watching the holes appear where I am aiming.
Getting a little better and enjoying the time I spend shooting is more productive than the search for the impossible.

[Lloyd Smale]

it can be narrowed down a bit though. Pick a mid weight for caliber lfn with a gas check and cast it at 16 bhn or harder. that works for any 357 41 or 44 or even the bigger rounds. You can fight with Truncated nosed bullets swc's, kieth's, round flats, and if you really want to search start with a wfn or worse yet a wlfn. Those choices will sure help you learn trigger control though because youll spend 5 times more time on the bench working up loads. there are some good swcs and round flats out there but ive got drawer full of crap designs. Never had a lfn even a plain based one that didnt shoot at least above average.

[Groo]

Groo here
I will give you the magic bullet ,,,,,,, the one your gun likes..........
not the one YOU like.........
If you must,, look at the old round nose bullets..,, the ones with the long round nose, and soft.....

[Conditor22]

bad eyes here to. I paint my hand gun sights (that aren't night sights or fiber-optic, good fiber-optic sights really help)

so I can see them better I also found wearing computer/reading glases help me see the sights better (the target is a bit fuzzy)

I spent last year trying to get good groups out of 2 of my (like new, nicely priced 2nd hand) 9mm's got frustrated and took them to a gunsmith who after close examination told me the both the barrels were bad from the factory :groner::killingpc .

I called Ruger and they sent me a shipping label I sent it in, they tested it and replaced the barrel sent the gun back with a free cleaning cloth.
ruger now shoots 1" groups at 15 yards off a rest

I called Sig --"We only warrant our guns to the original purchaser" so after deciding to never buy a second hand sig again, I bought a new barrel and proceeded to shoot 1 hole groups (off a rest :) )

to sum it up, it's not always the load, even new(ish) guns can have bad barrels from the factory [now I know why the prices were so good LOL]

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The RCBS 45-270-SAA is more accurate than any other boolit that I have found for the Colt’s SAA. This boolit makes my .45’s more accurate than any of my .44 Specials.

The RCBS 45-270-SAA is the most only accurate boolit at 25 yards.

I’ve chased the zero around the bullseye for about 4 decades now with Colt’s SAA’s. I’ve concluded that time at the range is probably more valuable than developing loads.

Lighting is another huge factor. My boolits are most accurate when the sun is high in the sky over my back lighting up the target.

My test powders happen to be Alliant products. Everything from Green Dot, Red Dot, Bullseye, American Select, Unique to Blue Dot and 2400. I’ve consumed several pounds of each with different molds and guns, chasing that elusive tight zero.

I had a .38 cylinder custom cut to .430” without any real improvement in accuracy over the stock .434” cylinder. Dougguy worked his magic on my SBH cylinder and that really tightened up the groups.

I’ve had a Colt’s .357 barrel custom bored to .45. Today I received that barrel back after having the side remarked from .357 Magnum to .45. It is scheduled to have the front sight height increased.

[megasupermagnum]

The RCBS 45-270-SAA is more accurate than any other boolit that I have found for the Colt’s SAA. This boolit makes my .45’s more accurate than any of my .44 Specials.

The RCBS 45-270-SAA is the most only accurate boolit at 25 yards.

I’ve chased the zero around the bullseye for about 4 decades now with Colt’s SAA’s. I’ve concluded that time at the range is probably more valuable than developing loads.

Lighting is another huge factor. My boolits are most accurate when the sun is high in the sky over my back lighting up the target.

My test powders happen to be Alliant products. Everything from Green Dot, Red Dot, Bullseye, American Select, Unique to Blue Dot and 2400. I’ve consumed several pounds of each with different molds and guns, chasing that elusive tight zero.

I had a .38 cylinder custom cut to .430” without any real improvement in accuracy over the stock .434” cylinder. Dougguy worked his magic on my SBH cylinder and that really tightened up the groups.

I’ve had a Colt’s .357 barrel custom bored to .45. Today I received that barrel back after having the side remarked from .357 Magnum to .45. It is scheduled to have the front sight height increased.

Who did your revolver barrel reboring?

[W.R.Buchanan]

On this subject my thoughts are "find something that works and do that."

Find a load that shoots better than you can, and go shoot something with it.

I have very few guns that I have tried more than one load in. I do some research and find something that looks promising and then go sight the gun in with that. End of testing!

My RGS has seen 100 Factory Loads, and those cases have been reloaded 13 times with 45 gr of 4895 and Recycled M80 Bullets. consistent 7/8" groups, no need to look farther.

.44's all get Keith Boolits or Thompson Boolits and either 6.0 for Specs or 8.0 gr of W 231 for Mid Range Mags, or 22 gr of H110 for Full Mags.

My Marlin Rifle is <2" at 100 yards with Iron Sights. and the Ruger SBH is way better than I can hold with the Mid Range loads and with powder coated boolits there is no leading or cleaning afterwards in any of those guns. It is fun to shoot these guns! At stuff!!!

.45-70 worked up to 33 gr of 5744 for 1.75" at 100 yards with iron sights, acceptable Trajectory to 200 M and no need to go farther. Silhouettes mostly.

.40 S&W 5.4 gr of W231 and .45 ACP 5.7 gr of W231 off the Dillon forever. No need to go farther to poke holes at 5-25 yards or knock down steel . These would also work for HD just like any Factory Load would. No need to go father.

Chasing groups is IMHO pointless. The idea of shooting, is to shoot something. That can be a paper silhouette target, a Steel Target, a Dirt Clod, cans, bottles, or a pig. Whatever,,, just so you can say you shot something.

I will say that I have farted around with shotgun shells alot more than metallic cartridges. They make big holes in targets and are easy to see from the bench. :bigsmyl2:

If you got the magic one hole group,,, did you actually shoot something with it, or do you just have a group? Dirt clods are plentiful and hitting a dirt clod offhand at 200 yards in front of a bunch people will get you more cheers than a group on paper shot off a bench.

Randy

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Norm Johnson.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Chasing groups is IMHO pointless. The idea of shooting, is to shoot something. That can be a paper silhouette target, a Steel Target, a Dirt Clod, cans, bottles, or a pig. Whatever,,, just so you can say you shot something.

I agree. I manufacture ammo I can produce in large quantities.

[osteodoc08]

Do whatever makes you happy. It’s a hobby. I chase groups with my rifles until I find a great
Combination and then load a bunch and don’t change unless something happens. If I’m looking for accuracy I’ve had great success with #9 but typically use 231 and 2400 in my revolvers

[Harter66]

I still can't shoot much of a DA group .
I've shot enough the know that the 45 Colts RBH still throws one chamber and it's not always me .
I used to think I wasn't much of a pistol shooter , I still don't , but I'm better than a few that really fancy themselves hot shots .

The only handgun challenge I have now is to make companion guns share a load that will hit as well at 75-100 out of the 16-20" barrels as they do at 25 out of 3-1/2-7.5" barrels .

[44MAG#1]

Do whatever makes you happy. It’s a hobby. I chase groups with my rifles until I find a great
Combination and then load a bunch and don’t change unless something happens. If I’m looking for accuracy I’ve had great success with #9 but typically use 231 and 2400 in my revolvers

You know, you are exactly right. Different people go the range with different agendas. Some go to shoot to practice to improve their shooting ability (after getting a reasonable accurate load for their guns,) and the reason I said that is I have been accused of saying just use any old load no matter how it shoots, which by the way wasn't true.
Some like me go to TRY to improve their ability, some just go to blast away ammo with nothing in mind to accomplish, some go to constantly experiment to find that magic load, some go to fellowship and talk about that elusive "magic" bullet or "magic" load and some go to talk more than they shoot. Some go to try to get away from life's problems for a while.. I've even driven the 10 miles to the range to shoot just 7 "SEVEN" rounds for a particular reason.
So as you said, as long as one is happy that is all that matters. It doesn't matter whether one goes to find that "magic" bullet or "magic" load or whether they can hit a target or even the ground for that matter as long as a person is enjoying themselves that is good.
If a person isn't enjoying themselves shooting they need to find something to do that does make them happy.

[Shuz]

Taz, my eyesight in the last few years has caused my groups to go to you know where. There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol, but still do and still enjoy those days. I am extremely nearsighted 20/800 and 20/850, but my eyes will change from day to day and are affected by high ambient light levels. I realize that I will never shoot great groups with open sight handguns again and red dots help a bunch but are not perfect either. The part that sucks... I am only 55. I never have a day that I cannot shoot the CCW target to a pass with a 90% or more score. I think it is muscle memory for me because I really dislike the glock frame angle and could not pass the test on a good day with one. But, with a 1911 grip angle or a S&W revolver there are no issues at all.

You might wanna try a Merit optical device, or a clone of one. Really helps with open sighted handguns.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Shooting is a skill like any other, us humans learn through repetition. After proper training, practice those skills. Jerry Miculek said; be the first one at the range in the morning and the last to leave in the evening.

[tazman]

Shooting is a skill like any other, us humans learn through repetition. After proper training, practice those skills. Jerry Miculek said; be the first one at the range in the morning and the last to leave in the evening.

I can afford neither the ammunition that would require or the divorce that would certainly follow.

[murf205]

Do whatever makes you happy. It’s a hobby. I chase groups with my rifles until I find a great
Combination and then load a bunch and don’t change unless something happens. If I’m looking for accuracy I’ve had great success with #9 but typically use 231 and 2400 in my revolvers

Best answer yet, Doc. Everybody goes to the range and has their own idea of a good time. I shoot off the bench 'cause I'm usually wanting to find out what combination that a gun likes and that's the best way-for me. But hey, it is what I enjoy doing, testing and chronographing. 99% of the targets I post on here were shot off a bench for accuracy purposes and never meant to imply that I am a human machine rest, but for my fun shooting, its the steel swinger. As far as the magic boolit, well every time I think I have that all figured out, along comes a plain old wad cutter that out shoots everything I tried!

[cp1969]

On this subject my thoughts are "find something that works and do that."

Find a load that shoots better than you can, and go shoot something with it.

I have very few guns that I have tried more than one load in. I do some research and find something that looks promising and then go sight the gun in with that. End of testing!

<snip>
Chasing groups is IMHO pointless. The idea of shooting, is to shoot something. That can be a paper silhouette target, a Steel Target, a Dirt Clod, cans, bottles, or a pig. Whatever,,, just so you can say you shot something.

<snip>

If you got the magic one hole group,,, did you actually shoot something with it, or do you just have a group? Dirt clods are plentiful and hitting a dirt clod offhand at 200 yards in front of a bunch people will get you more cheers than a group on paper shot off a bench.

Randy

I agree. When I learned to shoot, there was no such thing as a "shooting range" anywhere near. Our range was the outdoors, with shooting distances from point blank to infinity. Targets weren't always stationary, either.

[charlie b]

On this subject my thoughts are "find something that works and do that."

Find a load that shoots better than you can, and go shoot something with it.

I have very few guns that I have tried more than one load in. I do some research and find something that looks promising and then go sight the gun in with that. End of testing!................

Chasing groups is IMHO pointless. The idea of shooting, is to shoot something. That can be a paper silhouette target, a Steel Target, a Dirt Clod, cans, bottles, or a pig. Whatever,,, just so you can say you shot something...........

If you got the magic one hole group,,, did you actually shoot something with it, or do you just have a group?............

Randy

Yep, shoot different loads to get smallest groups on targets. Why do I need to shoot at something else? :) It isn't just a measure of rifle and cartridge capability, it's a measure of how well can I shoot. If the rifle 'shoots better than I do' then I have some work to do :)

[dtknowles]

I think it is fine for people to shoot what and how they want as long as it is safe.

I don't know for sure but I believe that off hand rifle shots are rare. Most around here hunt from blinds or stands, most have rests. If stalking, I still sit or kneel most of the time. I do practice sitting and kneeling at the range and while nobody comments, almost nobody else does. I at the range I shoot of a rest a lot but then mostly I shoot my bench rest rifles. Centerfire Pistols I shoot the plate rack at 25 yards but that get boring since misses are rare with my better pistols and I don't have a timer. I guess I should get a timer. My .22 target and hunter pistols I shoot offhand at 3" bulls at 25 yards. I still struggle with flyers. I almost always get 9 out of 10 on the 3" bull. Nothing get more comments than my Dan Wesson super mag. in .357 Max. at the rifle range. I get more hits and misses on the plate at 100 yards shooting offhand with iron sights and that is with my .357 mag. plinking ammo. Full house .357 max. loads I miss more often. My plinking ammo is very accurate. Just because it is loaded on a progressive press does not mean it is not as good.

When someone says "one hole group" what do they mean? All the holes touching, with a .45 that could be a 1.5" 5 shot group?

I stopped disputing outrageous claims. I use it to calibrate my opinion of the writer.

Tim

[charlie b]

A 'one hole group' could mean anything. I've had 'one hole' targets where the hole is 10". Happens if enough rounds are fired at it. Yes, a .50 cal hole is much larger so a 5 shot one hole group could be quite large compared to a 5 shot .22 cal one hole group.

This discrepancy is why most of us measure group size instead of using the term 'one hole'.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Here's a couple I shot today trying out pan lube as opposed to PC. RCBS 250K mold. 7 grains Unique in the 24-3( lower group ) and 9 grains in the Super Blackhawk. 10 yards offhand. A bit flinchy today. Mediocre groups but fun none the less.

268888

[murf205]

Any leading?

[JoeJames]

Taz, my eyesight in the last few years has caused my groups to go to you know where. There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol, but still do and still enjoy those days. I am extremely nearsighted 20/800 and 20/850, but my eyes will change from day to day and are affected by high ambient light levels. I realize that I will never shoot great groups with open sight handguns again and red dots help a bunch but are not perfect either. The part that sucks... I am only 55. I never have a day that I cannot shoot the CCW target to a pass with a 90% or more score. I think it is muscle memory for me because I really dislike the glock frame angle and could not pass the test on a good day with one. But, with a 1911 grip angle or a S&W revolver there are no issues at all.Well put. I had cataract surgery in my right eye about 16 years ago, and a lens replacement. Supposedly I am 20-20 in my right eye but as mattw stated: " There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol". And a lot of times I don't, if I am just testing new loads or new boolits. Before I start shooting I check on how well I can see out of my right eye, things like looking at the license plate on my truck, or the seams in the wall board on the house. If all is clear and crisp I am good to go. Unlike mattw I just don't shoot on such days as it would not be a fair test.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Any leading?

24-3 is clean as a whistle. Super Blackhawk might have some or it could just be lube. Have not cleaned it yet. Even though the Keith boolits are only 15 grains heavier or so than what I was shooting, they recoil noticeably more. If it is lead I was probably shooting a too soft alloy.

[tazman]

Well put. I had cataract surgery in my right eye about 16 years ago, and a lens replacement. Supposedly I am 20-20 in my right eye but as mattw stated: " There are days that I should not even pick up a pistol". And a lot of times I don't, if I am just testing new loads or new boolits. Before I start shooting I check on how well I can see out of my right eye, things like looking at the license plate on my truck, or the seams in the wall board on the house. If all is clear and crisp I am good to go. Unlike mattw I just don't shoot on such days as it would not be a fair test.

Cataract surgery is slowly creeping up on me. My eye doctor won't recommend it yet. Says It doesn't interfere with my vision enough yet.
I think she is correct. I have more trouble with the limits of my focus. There are only certain distances from my eyes that things will focus.
No prescription at all works for iron sights with my aiming eye but the targets are a blur. With prescription in front of my off eye and no prescription in front of my aiming eye, I have the best of both worlds. Everything is in focus from near to far.
I learned to shoot with both eyes open at a very young age, even with a scope. It makes picking up the sights and target much quicker for me.
I do get some odd looks when using both eyes with a scope though.

[JoeJames]

Cataract surgery is slowly creeping up on me. My eye doctor won't recommend it yet. Says It doesn't interfere with my vision enough yet.
I think she is correct. I have more trouble with the limits of my focus. There are only certain distances from my eyes that things will focus.
No prescription at all works for iron sights with my aiming eye but the targets are a blur. With prescription in front of my off eye and no prescription in front of my aiming eye, I have the best of both worlds. Everything is in focus from near to far.
I learned to shoot with both eyes open at a very young age, even with a scope. It makes picking up the sights and target much quicker for me.
I do get some odd looks when using both eyes with a scope though.Before I had my right eye done, I noticed that things had kind of a yellow hue. I was about 20-400 in my right and left eyes. Been wearing glasses since about the second grade. It was wonderful to not need glasses anymore.

[tazman]

I have about 20-400 in my right eye which is my aiming eye due to being nearsighted. Things within 2-5 feet are sharp.
My left eye has much better vision. Not quite 20-20 but close enough that on a bright day I can see clearly at distance with it. It just will not focus on close items until they get at least 5 feet away.
That is why I need to use a plain lens in front of my right eye to see open sights.
For long gun open sights, I can see the front sight on a rifle or shotgun but can't see the rear at all clearly with my regular glasses on. With the glasses off I can see the sights well.
Shotgun works fine since there is no rear sight to worry about. I have to use optics or a set of shooting glasses to see the sights on a rifle well enough to hit anything.

I have known my eyesight was bad from a young age. I didn't get my first set of glasses until age 16 when they were required for my drivers license.