S&W 629 Performance Center sight alignment question

[Petander]

Hello again,

I got my hands on this customer return revolver, it had multitude of problems right out of the box, like timing,rough irregular action etc. I'm maybe interested in it for a very low price. Too expensive to repair,sending overseas is not an option either.

So I took it for a test.

The sights don't align because the barrel is not completely turned in, front sight is on the right. Shoots left even with rear sight maxed to the right.

Do I have to remove the barrel first to screw it back in,remove a tad material to help it go deeper? Or can I just try to turn it more from here? How do I know this is the limit,how do I know the force? It may not go any deeper and that's why it was left like this.

I have never removed a revolver barrel. I have the nylon support blocks for a couple of frame sizes but not for this one.

https://i.postimg.cc/4NmLfjGm/IMG-20200928-223808-610.jpg

It needs an oversize hand,too. A gunsmith had said it needs a new cylinder to begin with, my range rod says it is ok so I'm here just wondering is repairing/trying to repair this is worth the effort or not.

https://i.postimg.cc/SRxhx47n/IMG-20200929-002159-763.jpg

Thank you.

[LAGS]

Why did they say it needs a new cylinder ?
I have bought several revolvers with similar problems and was able to repair them myself.
But then I had the right tools like action wrenches and bore alignment rods and forcing cone gauges.
But as far as the barrel rotation goes.
You should first pull the barrel off.
Then next time it is tightened , it will probably torque up just a little further in the rotation because the barrel and frame will have minor compression from the last torquing.
But before you remove the barrel , check what your cylinder Gap in to the barrel.
When the barrel is removed , guage the forcing cone.
But all this is easy for me to say , since I have had previous experience.
And buying guns in that condition at a good price was worth it to me since I did my own work so it cost me less to repair.

[Petander]

Makes sense,thanks for the clear reply LAGS.

I'm just gathering tools,I have the Brownells wrench,timing rods etc. Already repaired a few old S&W:s for my own use but never removed a barrel,not yet.

About changing the cylinder,I don't understand it either. We have smiths and "smiths", the sideplate screws are already "screwded" by that smith I guess.

I keep reading Kuhnhausen.

[LAGS]

His book is a good place to start.
I still have my copy around here somewhere.
But it is sad to hear that the " Bubba Gunsmiths " are not just confined to the U.S.

[Petander]

But it is sad to hear that the " Bubba Gunsmiths " are not just confined to the U.S.



https://i.postimg.cc/nh5F5vc5/IMG-20200929-230212-861.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/pXp3S3hW/IMG-20200929-230136-102.jpg

[LAGS]

Yep.
Wrong screwdriver was used.
Way to narrow.
But that minor damage can be repaired if you can not get the correct replacement screws.

[Petander]

Yes,the screws themselves are not big deal.

But if they represent the gunsmith's overall ability/attitude... well you know.

I'm the first one to notice the crooked barrel,go figure. Not the original customer,the shop or the gunsmith mentioned this anywhere,I got a printed paper about all the other problems.

Despite shooting to the left, this is grouping normally,maybe one cylinder shoots a tad higher that the others,need to confirm. Range rod test passes clean anyway. I ordered the N insert for the wrench from Brownells.

[LAGS]

One of the chambers may be out of alignment with the barrel to cause a slight difference in the bullet impact.
You might be able to identify which one by using an alignment rod and an empty case in the chamber.
But if you can mark the cylinder , then fire individual rounds out of each chamber to be able to identify and mark if the one chamber is a problem.
Or if it a Random issue which could be play in the cylinder on the crane/yoke

[Petander]

Yes,it's a known one cylinder. It's the one with the most serious timing carryup problem,too.

Accuracy-wise,nothing major though but I got that feeling while shooting and observing things.

Here in the pic is bad shooting, I was aiming at "25M" marker writing to try and hit the target center. I will check the cylinders separately soon. The spread in this pic is the shooter but you get the idea how crooked the front sight is because of the "unclocked" barrel. Rear sight is maxed to the right. Looks and feels strange to shoot...

https://i.postimg.cc/x8PdCrDw/IMG-20201003-160252.jpg

[Petander]

I couldn't confirm any POI change between cylinders,shooting offhand. Better use a rest.

Lots of circular cutting tool marks in the forcing cone,no polishing to talk about. One cylinder won't carry up SA at all, I'd say this is a dangerous condition,very easy to fire a non-concentric round. I'm using a snap cap in that cylinder for now.

And this. I wonder what would be a reasonable price for a DIY revolver like this? And how can a factory send out something so completely unfinished/tuned/checked while praising their own excellent gunsmiths custom work?

These cost 2200€ here. Useless out of the box.

https://i.postimg.cc/Wz9XpfQw/IMG-20201005-095004-105.jpg

[Petander]

Here is the ratchet.

https://i.postimg.cc/yxS12S9T/IMG-20201005-114110-093.jpg

Hand doesn't look worn, this gun has less than 500 rounds count. I will measure though.

Should I go with S&W oversize hand or Power Custom one? S&W is only .0005 oversize as far as I understand. Enough?

EDIT: well Brownells Finland only had Power Custom so that's what I ordered.

[Petander]

Hammer only hits with the left side... and what's up with the sideplate fitting?

https://i.postimg.cc/63G5J74z/IMG-20201005-233852-440.jpg

Burrs...

https://i.postimg.cc/rwCr3H2z/IMG-20201005-224400-431.jpg

[Petander]

See how hammer left side only touches.

https://i.postimg.cc/Dy3P8HFy/IMG-20201005-233941-043.jpg

Lots of tool marks here, I also find interesting to see erosion and gas cutting at 500 rounds,more than half of which have been 44 Special. Previous owner used factory ammo only,also cowboy loads,there was some lead in cylinders.

https://i.postimg.cc/59zNskzz/IMG-20201006-013532-436.jpg


I don't know what to think.

[Plate plinker]

Looks like a mess, but if you can get it cheap enough it is a good opportunity to learn some skills.

[Petander]

Looks like a mess, but if you can get it cheap enough it is a good opportunity to learn some skills.

Yes,I have been gathering tools and learning , knowing how to maintain and repair these is a necessity. Even though parts are hard to get nowadays, only Brownells here,with a limited selection.

Cylinder chamber throats are really uniform, all the same .431 . I didn't slug the barrel yet though but range rod feel is just right. Trigger is good, DA is heavy as is cocking the hammer.

Are these modern frames easier to crack than the old ones when removing barrel?

https://i.postimg.cc/T2BL01Q2/IMG-20201007-005051-643.jpg

[Petander]

Well now that I deep-cleaned and measured the cylinders yesterday - there was some lead,I did notice a small scratch.

After shooting 50 Magtech factory 44 Mag rounds today... I think the "scratch" is more visible now,after a good Bore Tech carbon remover cleanup. Throat size has not ghanged,as far as I can mic.

But is this a crack,or a scratch?

No borescope here... but this may be the reason why a gunsmith talked about a new cylinder. I never met the smith so I don't know. But nobody mentioned a cracked cylinder,I'd never taken the gun for any test.

https://i.postimg.cc/yNpXcQhr/IMG-20201008-003300-936.jpg

[Petander]

It's only a scratch with a couple of other marks near it.

https://i.postimg.cc/brbqCt3b/IMG-20201008-225616-214.jpg


Now that this revolver turned out to be a real lemon, I'm inspecting everything really carefully,expecting to find more problems. Price goes low,low,low... This can be made to shoot safe and good - I also found out about cylinder change talk, a smith had said it's the cylinder that causes bad timing. Well no it is not,lockup alignment is perfect,I have range rods. It's just in need of a wider hand so cylinder will turn far enough to lock up.

I'm actually interested in seeing all the MIM things inside. I also still like how this shoots even with the crooked front sight/barrel.


Now that they are clean,chambers are very pretty,uniform and brass drops out nice:

https://i.postimg.cc/m2C5DwPC/IMG-20201008-220754.jpg

[LAGS]

I do not see any reason that this revolver could not be rebuilt and all the problems corrected.
The question is.
How much work can you do yourself , and how low of a price can you get it for.
I am sure there are plenty of members on this forum as well as others that can walk you thru what you need to do.
But things need to be listed for repair , then done in a certain order.
Don't just jump in an fix one thing just because you have those tools now.
It can effect things down the line.
Things like an Oversized Hand can be made by yourself with hand tools and plenty of patients.

[Petander]

Yes I think removing / re-clocking the barrel is the big one - and the first one to start with. I can get help with that.

I'll start another thread about the hammer/frame alignment.

[LAGS]

The barrel and frame is your starting point.
Then the Yoke / Crane alignment.
Next the cylinder allignment.
All this must be set before you start any kind of Timing adjustment.
The cylinder stop in the frame , must be working and securing the cylinder in allignment with the bore Before you try to adjust the Hand for rotation.

[danski26]

Call me crazy.....but could all the problems be atributed to a bent frame? Hammer? Barrel? lock up?

[Petander]

The barrel and frame is your starting point.
Then the Yoke / Crane alignment.
Next the cylinder allignment.
All this must be set before you start any kind of Timing adjustment.
The cylinder stop in the frame , must be working and securing the cylinder in allignment with the bore Before you try to adjust the Hand for rotation.

Will do. At the moment it's locking up fine -but late- and the chambers align good. Crane/yoke are straight, I have the tools so I checked all that before shooting it at all.

But after the barrel removal / re-seat everything can be different... there is a chance to crack the frame, especially now that the overall quality is highly questionable. Could be a reject frame to start with.



Call me crazy.....but could all the problems be atributed to a bent frame? Hammer? Barrel? lock up?

The barrel is clearly @ 11.55 instead of @ 12.00 o' clock,looking from the front. What is happening around hammer, I don't understand. Looks like random faults in MIM molding or something.

But I've been looking for a bad,cheap S&W to practise with. I just never thought it would be a new Performance Center gun.

[Petander]

I figured I'll take a look inside and start "slicking up" while waiting for more parts and tools.

I will be careful and NOT touch certain parts, trigger itself is pretty good but cocking and DA are very heavy. Dragging parts and burrs...

Mainspring has a rib,is it a Wolff? I have a couple of reduced Wilson kits but this needs to be de-burred , polished and most probably is just fine with the springs this came with.

https://i.postimg.cc/cJLT4qW5/IMG-20201011-115319-404.jpg


Shooting it yesterday @ 100 meters, I got six bullets in a 12" circle - but two feet to the left of POA because of the crooked front sight / barrel.

https://i.postimg.cc/wM7StydZ/IMG-20201010-155527.jpg

There is something nice and rewarding,repairing things that don't necessarily make sense to be repaired. I'm sure I could find a good,old,forged,working 629 for less money than this poor little gun. Then add parts,tools and time.

But I like doing it.

[Don Purcell]

It's enough to make one weep. Might check the rear sight mounting screw, the tongue appears to be raised slightly above the frame. Wish you all the best.

[LAGS]

Remember to check out the forcing cone when you first remove the barrel.
You can set the Gauge in the forcing cone to make sure the taper is not to great.
Then you can decide if there is enough material left to polish out those rings and marks.

[Petander]

It's enough to make one weep. Might check the rear sight mounting screw, the tongue appears to be raised slightly above the frame. Wish you all the best.

Thank you - that screw is tight,it just looks like a one coming off. I have a 28 that needed Locktite here.


Remember to check out the forcing cone when you first remove the barrel.
You can set the Gauge in the forcing cone to make sure the taper is not to great.
Then you can decide if there is enough material left to polish out those rings and marks.

Very good note about the cone,thank you.

[Petander]

Funny how the previous owner managed to scratch this gun with a holster quite a lot, practising IDPA. The barrel end especially,can't see it in this pic though. Was he in Sahara desert?

He fired 500 rounds in a year, I have fired more in two weeks with no additional scratches. This matte brushed surface gets ugly very easily it seems.

[LAGS]

If the forcing cone can not be polished out and stay with in specs , then you will have to train the back of the barrel at least the thickness of one turn of the barrel .
Then the cylinder Gap will have to be ReSet by trimming the end of the barrel.
I prefer a .003" cylinder Gap or less.
Now that is with a Cylinder with No End Shake on the yoke.
End shake can be adjusted also with washers.

[Petander]

My B/C gap here is .004" when pushing cylinder back. Pushed forward it is .002". That makes for .002" endshake, a spacer might work.

Headspace with Magtech brass is snug and even .008" at every chamber.

[Petander]

Well I wanted to try a cylinder spacer but the yoke didn't come out...?

Only this much. What am I missing here?

https://i.postimg.cc/bYg6Kx2T/IMG-20201012-124815.jpg

[Petander]

Got it. It was not the yoke/frame, it was the cylinder sitting really tight.

Cylinder fit has been crazy tight, it was very hard to get the yoke (crane?) out. I had to get creative how to pry the cylinder out....

I think I found one reason for the premature time-off. The gun has been fired regardless of excessive force needed,it has been the tight,binding cylinder causing ratchet wear.

https://i.postimg.cc/XJhQ8C7b/IMG-20201012-142405.jpg

[Petander]

There was a piece of metal in between the cylinder and yoke.

Look at the yoke surface:

https://i.postimg.cc/N0dzW6HH/IMG-20201012-153835-432.jpg

I got the yoke/cylinder surfaces polished and a .002" cylinder shim in there. Now my endshake is almost unmeasurable with my mm blades, my thinnest is 5 mm / .002". Next is .004". Timing changed very little. I have a 29 that was loose and late,two shims helped with timing a lot.

[Petander]

With this design you can not remove the crane and cylinder as one unit. You remove the crane alone first and that's a good way to work.

But now that the cylinder was very tight it took some thinking. I usually remove the crane only, holding the cylinder in hand but you can not do that when it's stuck. Having only two hands is frustrating at times.

Here you can see the design.

https://i.postimg.cc/DzSPf0yS/IMG-20201012-161110-469.jpg

[Petander]

Some clays and steel after tweaking. No endshake feels good.

https://i.postimg.cc/cL9LvZBV/IMG-20201012-181025-548.jpg

[Petander]

I sure am in need of a helping hand here,ordered it from Brownells two weeks ago.

https://i.postimg.cc/0NFk5y68/IMG-20201015-055332-612.jpg

[Petander]

Well, one thing at a time. Got a .431" reamer from Manson / Brownells.

Throats were .4285, some FMJ:s couldn't pass.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4FyDFFV/IMG-20201105-232130-044.jpg

Now my .4305" - .4310" bullets are free to enter the .430" groove barrel. No worries about hard bullets extra pressure, shoots great and clean...

But undersize throats from "World's best gunsmiths" hands! S&W gimme a break.

A dealer told me about some S&W:s failing CIP proof test because of too tight throats... also one BFR 500 bulged a cylinder there... manufacturers sure are feeding us customers with questionable quality these days.