Counter-boring a 22 Remington.

[303Guy]

I have a Remington 511 Score Master that I picked up cheaply a long time ago. One day a few years ago O got to firing it and it shot rather poorly. Now these rifles are supposed to be pretty accurate. Anyway, I put it away and only got to have a closer look a few days ago and what I found was rather horrifying. The bore near the muzzle is damaged! It seems that some corrosive agent got in, I'm assuming before I got it since I have ben storing it high and dry alongside other rifles.

So I am figuring that the simplest solution would be to counter-bore it. This is something I have never done before and I am concerned about crowning. My thinking is to counter-bore it then finish with a boring bar but to cut a clean square crown I would ideally need to cut from the inside out but there is not a lot of room for a rigid bar.

I could of course simply chop off the damaged section and refit a front sight but I would prefer to keep it looking and feeling original. I could alternative cut it then fit an extension to bring it back to length but both those solutions require fitting a non original front sight which is probably not the worst thing in the world. I could go a step further and shorten the barrel then bring it back to length with a slim suppressor and mount a front site on that but the problem there is that it would have to be fixed which is probably OK. In fact, I could make an offset suppressor to get some volume.

Anyhow, thoughts and suggestions would be welcome.

https://i.postimg.cc/3RdxVJyc/20200922-105255.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/NMSjcqmf/20200922-105217-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Here one can see where some agent has removed the bluing. That agent also got into the muzzle. The top photo is not very clear but one can make out something wrong in the muzzle. That damage goes back about as far as the bluing damage.

That sight has been bubba'd but it is actually very nice to aim with. I do have an original sight for it but I'm actually going to keep with the bubba'd style, just not that blade.

[country gent]

I would look for a small counter bore with removable pilots. turn a pilot to .218 or a nice fit about an inch long. Then by hand stone a radius on the corners of the counter bore. This will relive the sharp corner and strengthen the joint along with remove a area that will hold dirt and fouling. A 1/4" or 5/16" should be plenty.

One of the first match mods on the m14/m1a was to ream the flash hider out to .400 with a #7 taper pin reamer, You might consider a smaller 3 or 4 taper pin reamer to ream the bore in a cone shape with now edge to the transition.

[kywoodwrkr]

Research something like " 3° Taper Angle 1/8" x 5/16" x 1-1/2" LOC x 3" OAL 3 FL End Mill" and see if that would answer problem similar to solution stating "the m14/m1a was to ream the flash hider out to .400 with a #7 taper pin reamer, You might consider a smaller 3 or 4 taper pin reamer to ream the bore in a cone shape with now edge to the transition".
I'm actually looking at that reamer to use as reamer in making some special plugs for the Lee powder through die.

[indian joe]

FWIW
I counterbored a 45/70 marcheno sharps, got it cheap from a bloke who had it in storage for a long time - he had scrubbed the barrel before we dealed - that thing always leaded at the muzzle - combination of not enough lube on the boolit + me not up to speed on the job - anyway in the end we discovered two faint corrosion marks in the rifling and counterbored it rather than recut the front sight dovetail - I thought I did a decent job of it and it stopped the leading at that point - It never shot particularly well - or that bad either - but had been an accurate gun in the hands of the owner before my guy - eventually I took the plunge and sawed the counterbore of it - recut the sight dovetail - best idea I had so far. I suspect that the counterbore + big long slug + blackpowder charge was inducing a small amount of instability in the counterbored area as the boolit exited. Re doing the sight dovetail is not that big of a deal - trying to make a nice crown two inches down in a 25 cal hole would be not so easy i think.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Drilling will work just fine if you use a new, sharp drill.
Place a small piece of folded cloth (about the size of a stamp) between the muzzle and drill to prevent chatter when starting the hole.
A few shot will take care of the burrs (if any) Been there, done that...

[uscra112]

Use a .22LR chamber reamer. Preferably a true match chamber such as the Lilja, not the Bentz.

Do NOT use a twist drill!

I think you'll wind up shortening the barrel anyway.

[ASSASSIN]

If you have access to a lathe, use a center cutting end mill to cut a counterbore to the depth you want, then if you have to, regrind a boring bar to cut a very clean and sharp muzzle crown inside of the counterbore, and your "problem" will be completely and totally eliminated!

The only thing left to do would be to cold blue the inside of the counterbore. As long as you cut the counterbore with a good/sharp end mill, it should produce a very near mirror finish that will require no polishing before cold bluing.

[303Guy]

Finding suitable reamers could be a problem. I do have one or two taper reamers I should check out.

If I only needed to go in a short distance I would just use a boring tool ground for the purpose.

It is still a consideration to cut the barrel back to clean rifling then fit an extension tube complete with baffles and mount a sight on that. The effectiveness of the baffles would be limited of course but will help some. It only needs to look original.

[Nobade]

I sometimes do that with a centerfire 22 necker that has a removable pilot. A regular solid pilot one is too big for the hole.

[rockrat]

One of the reamer makers I believe, have reamers to counterbore a muzzle. Don't remember which one though

[Cap'n Morgan]

To quote Governor Michael Steele: "Drill, baby, drill..."

[Drm50]

I’ve cut off several 22 rifles which is easiest to get rid of bore damage at muzzle. I have had one case that I was forced to counter bore. With my luck it was my own gun. I had a Savage 24 in 22/410 hid in my cabin. Before deer season I always took cabin guns home for winter. Well some kind of bug crawled in 22 barrel and hatched or whatever. Ruined rifling about 1/2” in and 1/2” long. I had to fight small OD of barrel and not being able to turn in lathe. I did first plunge bore with twist drills. A buddy of mine knew machinist in local plant that ground a mill cutter to face crown. Used Dremil to relieve crown. After all that it didn’t shoot worth squat. All this done on drill press with jig to hold barrel made of angle from bed frame. To be honest I had tunnel vision at the time. It never entered my wee mind to cut off the barrels. I could have easily cut both and crowned 22 barrel.

[DougGuy]

Since you won't be gaining any velocity with counterboring vs. shortening the barrel, I would shorten it, crown it, and dovetail a new front sight. If you have or know a buddy with a milling machine, problem solved.

[indian joe]

Since you won't be gaining any velocity with counterboring vs. shortening the barrel, I would shorten it, crown it, and dovetail a new front sight. If you have or know a buddy with a milling machine, problem solved.

cut the sight dovetail with a triangle file not really a big deal .

[indian joe]

Drilling will work just fine if you use a new, sharp drill.
Place a small piece of folded cloth (about the size of a stamp) between the muzzle and drill to prevent chatter when starting the hole.
A few shot will take care of the burrs (if any) Been there, done that...

yeah I been there done it too - done it properly in the lathe - gun shot better after I cut it off and recrowned it - whatever works, works......

[uscra112]

Take practice to cut a good dovetail with files. Don't tackle the Remington before you've worked up your skills on something ypu don't care about.

[1006]

I would barrow a bore scope and verify that the rest if the barrel is worth the effort. It may be better left alone.

[indian joe]

Take practice to cut a good dovetail with files. Don't tackle the Remington before you've worked up your skills on something ypu don't care about.

of course ! ....I also forget how impatient people are these days.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The drill must, of course, be large enough to prevent any chance of the bullet contacting the hole and allow escaping gas to pass without disturbing the bullet too much.
As for chopping the end of the barrel off, it will probably increase speed slightly, the optimal barrel length being about 16".

[Drm50]

I’ve bought a couple dove tail files cheap. Guys bought them from a Brownells to save money and do their own dove tails. What I say to them is buy a ramp, that might save them money if they don’t drill into the bore.

[Geezer in NH]

I would have a Gunsmith cut it back, thread and crown the barrel and then have dovetail milled in the barrel. Thread or 1/2x28 so every common can will fit.

But that is just me.

[303Guy]

Thanks for the responses, folks. Lot's of food for thought.

On Sunday I plan to shoot the rifle again with different ammo to see how it does and to establish a baseline.

[303Guy]

I chucked the barrel and had a go at it. This is what the muzzle looked like after a range session. You can see how the lands fade at the muzzle.

https://i.postimg.cc/1RKqggHF/20201008-165655.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I went in a short distance but the rifling didn't look good so I went in further. I seem to have gone past the worst of it although it does look like another millimeter or two would be in order. This is after firing five shots. It's only now in uploading the photos that I can see properly what it looks like.

https://i.postimg.cc/g0Pzqsc2/20201008-181746.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Before I go any further I want to give it a try at the range with some target ammo I got yesterday and also a few other types and brands.

If it shoots OK I will just finish it off and cold blue it, if not I will go in under the dovetail. That's about as far as I can reach with the tool I made. I also need to stone the tool before cutting any more material.

I found that the bore is not concentric with the OD. I did not use a steady at this stage, this is just preliminary. The original crown wasn't true but not by much, not enough to make a difference I should think. Anyway, I'll true the OD and then finish the counter-boring and crown in the steady.

[uscra112]

Maybe use the old trick of a brass dome nut and abrasive to touch up the recessed crown you've created?

[725]

Why not just reline the barrel? If the damage is truly limited to the muzzle, go ahead and drill. Have done that and it works. A reline, however, will get you up to brand new status instantly.

[303Guy]

Don't tempt me. I would love brand new status and I would opt for a target grade reline. This rifle only has to shoot as well as I can aim open sights.

My Dad's 22 Mauser has a rust damaged bore throughout so if I can't get it shoot then I will look into relining that one. That rifle is the most important to me. Apart from the sentimental value, there is the value of the gun, both as a quality gun and as collectors value. As a superannuant, I can't spend too much on guns though. Any idea what a reline would cost?

Uscra, what I've done with crown cutting in the past is to use 800 grit emery paper on my finger but I forgot this time. The brass dome screw trick will sort that out, thanks. I'm going to recover the fired boolits and see what they look like. That should tell me if there's a burr. If I have to go deeper I won't be able to get the emery onto the crown anyway.

[indian joe]

I chucked the barrel and had a go at it. This is what the muzzle looked like after a range session. You can see how the lands fade at the muzzle.

https://i.postimg.cc/1RKqggHF/20201008-165655.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I went in a short distance but the rifling didn't look good so I went in further. I seem to have gone past the worst of it although it does look like another millimeter or two would be in order. This is after firing five shots. It's only now in uploading the photos that I can see properly what it looks like.

https://i.postimg.cc/g0Pzqsc2/20201008-181746.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Before I go any further I want to give it a try at the range with some target ammo I got yesterday and also a few other types and brands.

If it shoots OK I will just finish it off and cold blue it, if not I will go in under the dovetail. That's about as far as I can reach with the tool I made. I also need to stone the tool before cutting any more material.

I found that the bore is not concentric with the OD. I did not use a steady at this stage, this is just preliminary. The original crown wasn't true but not by much, not enough to make a difference I should think. Anyway, I'll true the OD and then finish the counter-boring and crown in the steady.


My previous comments in regard to counterboring would not apply here as I class this as more of a deep crown - my counterboring effort was a couple of inches deep (neat job by the way! - might need just a tiny touch to break the sharp edge ?)

[303Guy]

Thanks. Yes that sharp edge is a question I have. I notice that target crowns have quite a sharp edge and the ones I've done before I left sharp. One of those is a very accurate rifle. Well, two actually. I'm not sure whether my 512 would be classed as accurate. The muzzle area is not perfect meaning I did not cut it back far enough. I do notice that some crowns have a small chamfer but the original crown on this rifle was a sharp 11 degrees.

I did a bit of googling and it seems that only the 11 degree crowns are not chamfered. Well, I'll give this a test as is then put in that small chamfer and test it again to see what difference it makes.

[303Guy]

This is my Target Master crown. I didn't see this before. It looks like a burr or something building up lead. The second muzzle is my late Dad's Mauser. It was shooting worse and worse. This could explain it. It looks as though there is an indent on the inside of the crown but what appears to be buildup is all around the muzzle. I'll just clean this one for now and have another look.

https://i.postimg.cc/HnP4L7SD/20201009-133815.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[303Guy]

https://i.postimg.cc/K8mkgvg1/Fiocchi-Subs-11-10-20.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Not all groups were noteworthy, some better than others but this ammo show promise. Other ammo types also showed a small cluster among a 'pattern' but bear in mind that this is open sights and switching to a scoped rifle I noticed I could have been responsible for some of the spread. This was at 25m.

[uscra112]

Those fliers might be eliminated by weight sorting and maybe the use of the Waltz tool. I've never had any Fiocchi to test, so I can only suggest doing some study yourself.

[303Guy]

CCI mini mags worked the best in my 512. I'll try those in this rifle too. I think I'll leave the crown as is for now. I had a closer look at making that tool. I'll do some sorting for next session.

[uscra112]

MiniMags were one of the ammo brands that I tested all those years ago. As good as they are, weight sorting reduced group sizes out of a box-stock, scoped 10/22 by 20%, and the Waltz treatment by another 20%.

[303Guy]

Thanks, uscra.

[303Guy]

Took the 511 to the range again today. It's a lead laser!

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q8J4GHq/20201018-123434-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/) Aguila Subsonic HP 10 shots.

Bear in mind that's open sights and past use by date eyes. Ten shots, one aimed at the wrong target. So, finding the ammo it likes (it is fussy) and find some decent sights and I'm good to go.

[uscra112]

Don'cha love it when a plan comes together?

[303Guy]

I do. I was getting a bit despondent. Then there before me is an actual group! Now I need to eliminate shooter error. I must say I really like shooting this rifle. It just feels good.

[mike britton]

Took the 511 to the range again today. It's a lead laser!

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q8J4GHq/20201018-123434-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/) Aguila Subsonic HP 10 shots.

Bear in mind that's open sights and past use by date eyes. Ten shots, one aimed at the wrong target. So, finding the ammo it likes (it is fussy) and find some decent sights and I'm good to go.

It's called "group fever"! LOL

[theoldredneck]

Friend shared easy way to do this if you have the reamer. Used a 17 HMR reamer with a pilot for a 22 long rifle chamber reamed. Worked perfect on a Ruger Bearcat barrel with dent under ejector rod housing screw.

[Geezer in NH]

Quick and easy at my old shop was run a 22lr chamber reamer in 1/8 inch