450/577 Martini Henry [Archive]

DoctorBill

09-22-2011, 01:24 AM

I just bought an excellent Martini-Henry Mk II 577/450 for $575 at Cabelas in Idaho.
Apparently an older gentleman collector sold off his entire collection.

Obtained 30 .577/450 cases (Jamison - $3.40 each one) and the big
LEE three Die set ($88) from BuffaloArms.com.

Then I got the LEE 457-450-FN Mold and have 50 bullets ready to go.

I intend to paper patch the bullets, but I have a butt-load of stuff to learn
about using Black Powder (I want to use Pyrodex to decrease corrosive
deposits) for loading of cartridges.

Apparently there are lube wads, milk carton wads, fillers, etc that this
MHR Cartridge requires !

http://www.mynetimages.com/4ba55d0da2.jpg

DoctorBill

dromia

09-22-2011, 02:26 AM

I have found Pyrodex to be at least if not more hygroscopic than black powder so the "corrosion" reason for using Pyrodex doesn't really stand up in my book.

Use black powder, that is what they were designed for. The only reason I might consider Pyrodex was if I couldn't get black and if I did then my cleaning regime would be even stricter than if I was using black.

herbert buckland

09-22-2011, 10:13 PM

It's one of those Nepalese deals..........and before you say it, sight unseen, I may not ever be reloading for it anyhow! But if it turn out a good specimen, I will slug the bore first, then go from there. I have been looking around on BuffaloArms, and they have a couple moulds that look pretty interesting. Worst comes to worst, I may even try patching my 45-70, and 50-70......Be carfull here these rifles have welded barrells,also the action is not as strong as the MH and the bore diameter is smaller than the Martini Henry around .455 to .458,if you want to shoot it after geting it checked out youse 45-70 GG bullets and around 60 to 70gr of F BP and a filler

Ed in North Texas

10-10-2011, 08:15 AM

Be carfull here these rifles have welded barrells,also the action is not as strong as the MH and the bore diameter is smaller than the Martini Henry around .455 to .458,if you want to shoot it after geting it checked out youse 45-70 GG bullets and around 60 to 70gr of F BP and a filler

He didn't say whether he has an actual Martini Henry Mark IV, or a Gehendra or Francotte. If he has the M-H Mark IV, it is most likely like mine - Enfield made and refurbed at an Indian arsenal before being turned over to the Nepalese. Mine is marked on the barrel NS NEP (Native Service Nepal). It was refurbed at the Allahabad, India arsenal in October, 1908 and was #9060 of 10,000 rifles the Nepalese received from the Brits. Assuming good condition, these are as safe to shoot as any other British M-H of the period. He should use the .470 to .472 boolit diameter recommended for the Mark IV. Others report using even larger diameter boolits as the throats on the M-H is rather large.

On the other hand, he may have a Gehendra, or Francotte rifle. I read of some folks shooting theirs, though with lighter loads. Others hold that they shouldn't be fired at all. I'll stay out of that issue as I don't own either one.

DoctorBill

10-10-2011, 08:25 AM

Ed in North Texas

10-10-2011, 03:22 PM

DoctorBill: If you search for the posts in the Black Powder shooting section, there is a discussion of the taper of the leade and the sizing of cast boolits in the following thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=123866

If you are on the British Militaria MH forum, do a search for bore diameter and you'll come up with a number of threads, some complete with diagrams from the very knowledgeable folks over there.

Hope that helps. As you can see, the link is to where I started on this odyssey.

rollmyown

10-10-2011, 04:16 PM

My Martini-Henry Mark II has a Fire Formed Neck INNER diameter of
0.475 to 0.477 ! ! !

I want to use .457 LEE Cast Bullets with a paper patch wrap.

Should I PP to .468 (the supposed diameter of MHR's)
or should I PP to .475 inch - - - which might be too tight a fit in the barrel ?

If I PP to .468, the bullet will be loose in the case neck.
I really don't want to crimp the cases down because that will wear out
this new Jamison Brass that costs $3.40 each case !

The rifle's Bore looks great.

DoctorBill

If you think $3.40 per case is expensive try $9.00 out for size! That's the price for new Bertram brass from Jansa Arms in Australia.

The exchange rate is almost dollar for dollar.

Chicken Thief

10-10-2011, 05:00 PM

You what?
Pay 2½ times the price in gods own country?

Do a driveby and scare some decent prises out of that sheep sha****g no good piece of kangaroo manure.

herbert buckland

10-10-2011, 05:12 PM

My Martini-Henry Mark II has a Fire Formed Neck INNER diameter of
0.475 to 0.477 ! ! !

I want to use .457 LEE Cast Bullets with a paper patch wrap.

Should I PP to .468 (the supposed diameter of MHR's)
or should I PP to .475 inch - - - which might be too tight a fit in the barrel ?

If I PP to .468, the bullet will be loose in the case neck.
I really don't want to crimp the cases down because that will wear out
this new Jamison Brass that costs $3.40 each case !

The rifle's Bore looks great.

DoctorBillThe best results I have had PP the 577-450 was to PP to the diameter of the fired case so as it was a firm press fit,this is oftern up to .475,you need a greese wad of about 1/2 inch to keep lube up to PPed 577-450 loads were I come from

DoctorBill

10-10-2011, 11:13 PM

Fantastic ! That is what I wanted to hear !

CURATOR just E-Mailed me with that same statement !

You see, I figured, from all that I've read, that a Martini-Henry will consume bullets
like that w/o any problem....

But, being new to these old chaps from "Merry Olde England", I wanted to know
if others did it....i.e didn't want to go do something stupid....as per usual....

Great - that is what I will do !

Now to just practice rolling Paper Patches until I get it right.

and....and...I am going to just use "whatever" for Lube Cookies.

There are more Lube Cookie Recipes than hairs on a cat !
Everybody says theirs is the best !
Some use Crisco, which I was wondering about....sounds like almost anything will work.

I'm off to see the Wizard - the wonderful Wizard of OZ !

DoctorBill

Chicken Thief

10-11-2011, 04:35 AM

Crisco is good because it is plant oil with some water whipped in.
And basically when you shoot BP you make soap.
Fat from the lube, ash from the burnt BP and water from blowtubing or from the lube.
Enough water will keep the fouling so soft that the following shot will "wipe" the barrel clean.

Ragnarok

11-03-2011, 09:49 AM

DoctorBill

11-03-2011, 04:46 PM

Ragnarok - "I have a Lee mold made just for the Martini..drops a .468/.469 bullet...with lube grooves."

Is that mold a special order mold ? If so, who did you buy it from ?

If not, what is the LEE Mold Number ?

Most interested....

A friend of mine milled straight sides into my LEE 457-450 mold for me.

http://www.mynetimages.com/51d7b6f600.jpg

It drops .463 and .466 bullets - he did each side slightly differently.

http://www.mynetimages.com/aa0a2ebbe2.jpg

Been trying different papers to Paper Patch them - I want to Paper Patch.
Have not tried them yet.

Tomorrow, my friend is going to cut a Taper Crimper out of Bar Stock and thread
it for 1 1/4 - 12. The man does incredible work !

BTW - Next time I make my Lube Cookie recipe, I'm going to add a few drops of
Hoppe's No. 9 so it smells better. Do they make a Hoppe's No. 9 after shave ?

DoctorBill

Ragnarok

11-03-2011, 08:41 PM

Nah..not a custom mold..think I got it from Midway for like $30..they have two styles for the Martini..one is a more conventional bullet..and the other is what I term a 'bore rider' style bullet...I've got the bore rider mold...I'll dig it out and get you the Lee number

OOPs!...RCBS 465-480-FN is the number...Not a LEE mold. These are steel blocks. Think I was getting this one confused with my 500gr .459 mold..it is a Lee mold.

I get all my stuff from Midway..or Graf and Sons..and I'm fairly sure I got this set of mold blocks from Midway.

RMulhern

11-03-2011, 11:40 PM

:dung_hits_fan::groner:[smilie=b::takinWiz:

Ed in North Texas

11-04-2011, 10:36 AM

I have a Lee mold made just for the Martini..drops a .468/.469 bullet...with lube grooves.

For lube I use a 50/40/10 beeswax/crisco/canola oil mix...that in reality is probably more like 60/30/10..so the stuff thick enough for summer use.

I shoot these out of two BSA MkII rifles..and a Enfield MkIV(supposidly larger bore..don't think it is though)..works great in all three guns.

Ragnarok,

There are 3 "types" of the Mark IV Martini-Henry rifles. Unofficially designated A, B and C. The type "A" was converted from the .402 Martini-Enfield rifles, rebored to 577-450. These have the same type of front sight as the earlier Mark rifles, and have larger bores due to re-boring. The "B" was also converted and re-bored, but the front sight is on a ramp, unlike earlier rifles. The "C" type also has the ramp style front sight, but has new made barrels and (not counting service wear) are supposed to be the same bore diameter as the Mark I through III rifles. Yours may be a "C" type, with the smaller bore.

Cannoneer

11-04-2011, 01:35 PM

I got a Martini Henery coming next week, would like to paper patch for it. Never done it before, looking for a push in the right direction, thinking of using a 400gr mould ment for my 45-70. Any one loading for one of these bad boys?

One of the best books on paper patching is by Paul Matthews titled "THE PAPER JACKET". It is published by Wolf Publishers out of Arizona. This is the book to get if you want detailed information on the how to's and with what types of paper.:cbpour:

DoctorBill

11-04-2011, 02:30 PM

I have three of Paul Matthews books !

The one you mentioned and Loading for the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge and Shooting the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle.

Nice books - cheaper purchased via Amazon.com and free shipping if over $50.

Yes - RMulhern - GROAN !

The difference between $23 (LEE) with handles and $80 (RCBS) without handles.....GROAN !

DoctorBill

Ragnarok

11-04-2011, 06:36 PM

Hey!..."Groan" all you want...the mold makes a bullit that works in my rifles..I never understood the RCBS designation of '.465-480'..this must reflect the bullets after sizing...'cause they do dump out of the mold at from .468-.469...just like the guy that recomended the mold told me it would.

I think My MkIV is a 'B' version..has the longer knox-form..ramp front sight...got a Wilkinson Sword Company bayonet..and won't take a spike. I've never slugged it..figuring if it shot well with what i provide..why bother.

midnight

11-04-2011, 07:37 PM

I helped my brother work up loads for his 577-450s. He has about 7 or 8 of them, Mark I, II, III, IV. We went the really expensive way. We got a Corbin press and swaging dies for a 0.452 dia smooth sided bullet for paper patching. We use pure beeswax for the grease cookie. Check out your chamber with a chamber cast. The Lee dies sized the neck so small you could slip the mouth of a fired case over the neck of a sized case.

Bob

RMulhern

11-04-2011, 08:20 PM

Ragnarok

11-04-2011, 08:50 PM

You make brass from 24ga shotgun shells...it's a slow process...if you charged by the hour may not be cheap...If you make your own .577/.450 brass from 24ga shotshells..you should also own a .577 Snider..that way any cases you screw up turning into Martini brass..can be made into Sniders..:mrgreen:

At first I was a bit leery about using the balloon head shot-shells...but once I made a bunch and loaded them a few times..they are fine..and fairly cheap. The main disadvantage being an even larger capacity than the already huge solid head brass.

DoctorBill

11-04-2011, 11:29 PM

Ragnarok - My "GROAN" was because you said it was a LEE Mold and those cost about 25%
of what an RCBS Mold costs and RCBS Molds come w/o the handles !

You got my hopes up just to dash them with water....

So....GROAN !

RMulhern - I bought 577/450 Martini-Henry Brass for $3.39 each from Buffaloarms.com in
lots of 10. Got 30 for $101.70 plus shipping. GROAN.....

DoctorBill

Ragnarok

11-05-2011, 12:50 AM

You can buy the magtec 24ga hulls from midway or probably Grafs..use your Lee dies..and make them yourself...it ain't that hard...just anneal your shotgun brass down below where the shoulder will be...stick a shotgun hull in the shell-holder with minimal lube..just start your sizing die in the press threads..and just take tiny chunks at a time..screwing the die down a bit each stroke...the most critical part is the very start...take tiny bites until the shoulder starts to form into a neck..once the neck starts forming you can speed up and take slightly bigger bites....once you bottom out the die on the shellholder you can trim the case to length..and you done converted a 24ga Magtec shotgun shell into a .577/.450 case...if the mouth starts to wrinkle..STOP..try iron the wrinkle out..or grind the mouth off a bit and deburr..try again..if it keeps wrinkling/buckling..toss it in the Snider pile

cases you ruin..save..'cause you can make these into .577 Sniders...uhmm..sometimes the magtec/CBC brass have oversize primer pockets..that's about all I can tellya' about .577/.450 brass...I have about 60 solid head drawn brass..all Ten-X(probably Jamison made)..had to trim many of the rims down because they wouldn't chamber in one or the others of my rifles. I've got 42 CBC shotshells turned into Martini brass out of 50..the rest I jacked up learning the deal..and these will salvage into Sniders.

The shotshells are easy to turn into Sniders..just trim to length, anneal, and stuff them into the sizing die...Takes some patience to make them into Martini Henry cases..but it ain't too bad. I ruined about three shotshells before I gott a good bottleneck case..then I was off and running..just screwing one up now and then when I got in to big a hurry.

DoctorBill

11-05-2011, 01:01 AM

Well, first off my LEE DIE reduces the neck way below what my rifle fire forms
the cases to. I don't even know what the LEE Die sizes the neck to !

Then, I understood that you need a Die that resizes the neck to something
midway from the Magtec cases to the 577/450 neck size for the first pass,
then you go to the LEE Die for the final pass.

If I could get the LEE die neck opened up to where my Martini opens them
(0.508 top - 0.516 bottom), then I wouldn't be fighting the case so much.

I thought someone said there was some size of LEE Rifle Die that would get you to
that midway point.... (?) If there is, then one of those could be got from LEE for
under $30, probably.

BUT - you know - once I have my 50 cases, since they'll last forever if I don't resize
them.....why would I need to make any more ?

Fifty rounds at a time is probably something I wouldn't shoot up anyway.

Unless another war with the Zulus starts and they drafted me into it !

DoctorBill

loiner1965

11-05-2011, 05:33 AM

martinibelgian

11-05-2011, 08:07 AM

Actually, the Lee die is the best 577-450 die around. Why? Because it is the only one that will resize brass so that it will chamber in just about all chambers. Don't forget that the round was in existence before SAAMI or CIP was thought up, there is a myriad different chamber configurations for that round. Make the die bigger, and you potentially have an issue with sized brass not chambering in some rifles. Which would you prefer? brass sized dowwn too much, or brass that won't chamber ? I know which one I would prefer...
FWIW, you can perfectly use the Lee die to form the Magtech brass - I do it all the time. A bit harder, a bit more loss - but it works. Pretty time-consuming though.

Ragnarok

11-05-2011, 10:13 AM

I'll repeat...you got the Lee dies..ok..you need some 24ga brass shotshells..Magtec/CBC will work...anneal them down below the point where the .577/.450 shoulder will be...just start the sizing die in your press...run the case up..and work the die down a 1/4 or 1/16 thread at a time..go slooow...once you have a case formed..trim to length...it's that easy..don't need 'intermediate dies'...just the stuff mentioned.

The gurus over at the British Militaria forum coached me on this..it works. This or buy brass.

midnight

11-06-2011, 09:12 PM

There is a guy in Montana I think that machined 577-450 cases from brass rod. You could specify case capacity. Those would only need a little neck sizing if that. It was a one man company named Mountain something. If anyone really needs to know how to get ahold of him I could get the info for you. This was a few years ago and they were only about a buck apiece.

Bob

DoctorBill

11-08-2011, 10:10 PM

I ordered and received 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Shotgun Shells from Buffaloarms.com for $54 total.

I am trying to reform one just with the LEE 577/450 DIE in order to see how it works.

Hard work ! Going reeeaaalleee slooowly....annealing as I go....

Here is where I am at right now.

http://www.mynetimages.com/e6856fb9d9.jpg

I use Castor Oil as a lube (Parashooter's way).

I have annealed twice to the stage shown in the photo.
Now I should trim off the excess over OAL to continue.

To Those Who Have Done This - what length should one trim the original 24 Ga
Brass Magtech case to in the beginning so that one doesn't have to trim along the way ?

Later....I annealed again and suddenly it was much easier going !
Seems annealing is the key !

Also - I have the DIE way up in the RCBS Press and get maximum leverage at the bottom
of the stroke.
Then I screw the DIE in another turn and do it again.
When it gets difficult, I will anneal again and keep going.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9f54930fa6.jpg

This might make a nice Winter Project - one a day.....
A Cartridge a day keeps the psychiatrist away.

DoctorBill

martinibelgian

11-09-2011, 05:08 PM

You're right, annealing is the key (hot enough but not too much, and far enough down) - that and making sure the case mouth is nice and smooth to start with. When your annealing is just right and you're in the stage of the 2nd case in your pics, then usually 2 more steps is all it takes - just don't forget to use just enough lube (not enough, and they'll stick, too much, and the shoulder will dimple).
As you will know by now, it is a case of just enough that will work smoothly. It does take quite a bit of time and effort to make these cases, but if you have the time...

DoctorBill

11-09-2011, 10:37 PM

Here is my first Magtech 24 gauge Brass Shotgun case reformed to a 577-450 using the LEE Die Set.

http://www.mynetimages.com/b2da1552b8.jpg

It is actually done in this photo, I just put it back in the jar lid with water to
show how I annealed the body of the case in order to get it into the LEE Die.

Heated where shown enough to get that color change then picked it up with
some gas pliers and dropped it in water.

About 3/8 ths inch of water in the cap protects the cartridge base from getting too hot.

The last part was not all that bad.

How can I trim the neck off square w/o buying a LEE Martini-Henry case length trimmer ?
Once they are trimmed, I don't believe I'll need to trim them very much, if at all, later on.

OK ! One out of 50....49 to go ! One a day thru the Winter months....

http://www.mynetimages.com/e5577cbd44.jpg
Has one small dimple just below the shoulder - First firing should form it all out.

Considering that Jameson Brass costs $3.39 in lots of ten, this isn't a bad deal !
I paid $1.08 each for the cases (two boxes) and will save $116 by doing these 50 reformings.

DoctorBill

Ed in North Texas

11-09-2011, 11:23 PM

[QUOTE=DoctorBill;1457819]I ordered and received 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Shotgun Shells from Buffaloarms.com for $54 total.

I am trying to reform one just with the LEE 577/450 DIE in order to see how it works.

Hard work ! Going reeeaaalleee slooowly....annealing as I go....

Here is where I am at right now.

http://www.mynetimages.com/e6856fb9d9.jpg

I use Castor Oil as a lube (Parashooter's way).

I have annealed twice to the stage shown in the photo.
Now I should trim off the excess over OAL to continue.

To Those Who Have Done This - what length should one trim the original 24 Ga
Brass Magtech case to in the beginning so that one doesn't have to trim along the way ?

Later....I annealed again and suddenly it was much easier going !
Seems annealing is the key !

Also - I have the DIE way up in the RCBS Press and get maximum leverage at the bottom
of the stroke.
Then I screw the DIE in another turn and do it again.
When it gets difficult, I will anneal again and keep going.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9f54930fa6.jpg

This might make a nice Winter Project - one a day.....
A Cartridge a day keeps the psychiatrist away.

DoctorBill

If you check the IMA website's M-H Mark IV page, or go on You Tube directly, there is a video about loading for the .577-450. It shows one way to anneal and form the case from the Magtech brass shell. Might help to see it done. Good luck, you'll appreciate those cases more than any you could buy.

Ed

Ragnarok

11-10-2011, 12:04 AM

I only anneal the Magtec shells once...and trim after I get them formed. I made a steel pipe sleeve of appropriate length to sit over the neck..and just gently grind the little bit that's too long off the neck..then file it smooth and chamfer the inside and outside.

Primer pockets....I had a couple of the new CBC/Magtec cases that the primer pockets were too big..primers just fall out!....Of course ya' don't figure this out until you laborously make a .577/.450 case out of the dud case..

DoctorBill

11-10-2011, 09:53 PM

I started last night.

One worked - One crimped (folded in). 50%

Today I did Six and two crimped. 70%

Out of Eight tried got six all totaled. 75% success rate so far.

Here is what happens if you go too quickly.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a6c2286f07.jpg

If I anneal them before I start them thru the Die, they crimp like the one on the right.

If I don't anneal, then it is harder than Hell, but they don't fold or crimp.

I turn the case constantly in the shell holder. My elbow is hurting from the strain....

Tried polishing the leading edge with a metal polish (Mother's).

Seems to help (I think) getting that sharp edge going into the shoulder portion of the Die.

If I catch one just starting to fold, I put a large Phiilips Head Screw Driver in my
vice and tap the fold flat with the end of a small wrench.
If you hold it correctly, you can tap a starting fold back out semi-smooth
and maybe save it from folding any more.

I go REALLY slow until the neck just starts to form.

Once the neck is forming, that keeps the folding from occurring.

Then anneal the center of the body as I showed previously and it goes easier. Much.

A lot of time consuming work and noise from the case sticking in the Die - lubed or not.

I grind off the excess Brass down close to the desired length, then use a LEE 45-70 case
length trimmer clamped in a vise and push-spin the case on that to the right final length.

http://www.mynetimages.com/d16c19b846.jpg

A final chamfering, outer burr cleanup with a file and a spin on some steel wool and the
case is squared off and clean and pretty like the one in the photo above.

Any hints, time savers and work-arounds would be appreciated.

DoctorBill

Red River Rick

11-10-2011, 10:25 PM

Doc:

I hate to see you suffer! But I do like to watch someone spend lots of money............on toys!:-P

Invest in a set of .577 Snider dies. Run your 24 gauge brass into the Snider sizing die, then finish them off in your "Zulu" die. I've been down this road, years ago.

Too much reduction is not a good thing, as you've found out.

Good side is, once you have the Snider dies, you can buy yourself a Snider!:)

Good Luck!
:drinks:

RRR

DoctorBill

11-10-2011, 10:55 PM

You know Rick...I am not sure just why I am doing this anyway !

More for the grins of it than anything else.

I bought that damned LEE Die Set and had no use for it since I don't expect to
have more than this one Mark II. All I need is my Taper Crimper now.

So, upon the advice of Martinibelgian and Ragnarok I went off and ordered 50 Magtech cases
to have some reason for having the LEE Die Set....You see - I do listen to you guys !

Soon I'll have 50 577/450 Brass cases that I bought.
30 Jameson and 20 from a private cartridge maker.

If I get 50% out of this reforming project, I'll have 75 cases all tolled.

Have you ever shot 50 rounds in a Martini-Henry in one day ! ?
If so, are you a masochist ? 30 rounds and I'm ready for an arm sling....

If a 577 Snyder case forming die from LEE weren't $45 just for that Die (all I really need !), I'd buy it.
http://leeprecision.com/xcart/SZ-DI-BDY-577-SNIDER.html

But...this "Hobby" is sucking me dry.
It can be a money pit....

So, I'll just work it.
My friend, Gary - the Machinist, is going to try the lathe collet squeeze reduction
experiment soon - maybe that will be a way to reduce the necks & shoulders
down and give me a head start with the LEE Die..

I bet the collet will cause folds and crimps, though.... but, who knows.

I hope these cases I made don't split at the necks when I fire form them !
The new formed cases are .491 neck diameter and when fired in my Mark II, they open
up to .512 !

Thanks for the sympathy, Rick......!

A quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield
"A Snider squibbed in the jungle -
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head."

I just donated $10 to Wikipedia via PayPal to keep it going !

DoctorBill

Lead pot

11-10-2011, 11:31 PM

When you neck down a case that is quite a bit larger then the neck like your doing or forming .220 brass from 06 do it in several steps not all at once.
I dont know what you have for loading dies but if you have a say .300 Win or .338 then a 50-70-90 before going for the .45 caliber neck use the sizing die to start the first and keep stepping it down. Use a good lube like 1 part lanolin 3 parts Castor oil, I have found nothing that works better for forming wildcat brass.

Ragnarok

11-11-2011, 12:06 AM

Go slow...I mean slooow. Barely start the Martini die in the press..run the case up and back down..turn the die an 1/8 turn..do it again slowly. I got where I could make 4-5 .577/.450 cases an hour.

I made all my cases in a couple afternoons..Ruining probably the first three..and then a couple others. The ruined cases will still be long enough to make .577 Sniders..so don't discard them.

I own the Snider dies too..and they don't size the shot-shells very much..I didn't bother after trying the Snider dies on the first few Martini cases I made.

The very crucial part I found was when the neck starts to form..if it starts to buckle even a tiny bit..STOP..either fix the case by working the wrinkle out with a hard smooth mandrel..or grind the wrinkle off and deburr..So go even slower than slow at that point. Once the neck starts to form good..you can take a bit bigger bites maybe.

You know what I did for brass for my first Martini Henry..I bought $119 a box of 20 Ten-X loaded ammo....shot it up like it was .22 long-rifle..and used that..Then bought another box of Ten-X and did the same..I still have these cases and use them. However these are made by Jamison I believe..and I had issues with Rim diameter in my other Martini rifles I bought later....The converted shotshells fit them all..I had to turn down the rims of the solid head brass to get it to work in all three of my rifles.

I was worried about case life with the converted shotshells..but seems they last fine with my loads..They will hold a considerably larger quanity of powder than the drawn brass.

DoctorBill

11-11-2011, 01:20 AM

Unless I win the Lottery, and you have to buy the tickets to do that, I doubt that I'll ever own a second Martini-Henry.

I love that rifle, but one is enough. So my fire formed Brass needn't be resized - ever.

The only working it will get is the Taper Crimp when I reload.

There are so many more and different old rifles that I must own !

That voice in my head says, "Get that one....and that one !"

I must obey.....

DoctorBill

Buckshot

11-11-2011, 03:21 AM

....................A Comblain !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.fototime.com/0612F747CB84FCA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AC591CEC925A2E1/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/4A280AA9B475B9D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/022CFD7381B30B6/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7A12618D703BEC8/standard.jpg

The whole little carbine. Cute little begger, isn't it? Cartridge is the 11.15x42R Comblain, Brazilian contract carbine. Most others used a 52mm to 60mm long case Bore/groove is .465"x.433", at the breech and .454"x.433" at the muzzle, so it has progessive depth grooves. Pretty deep grooves, at the breech, eh?

In photo #5 the 'works' have been removed. Take out one screw and the guts fall out. Remove one more screw and the extractor comes out. Photo #3 shows the shrouded hammer. If you think loading / reloading for the 577-450 is unusual, look up the 11.15 x 42R Comblain cartridge!

http://www.fototime.com/B595AC630EDE473/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/34EA4235E0A4A6D/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: As you can see, there is no neck in this chamber cast. It is a straight taper from the rim, to a definate point. From this point it angles sharply down to the bore. The case ID at the end of the taper is .493" and the groove of the barrel is .465" here at the chamber. The chamber is missing a fairly common feature that's usually there. How about a neck? I've seen ONE drawing of this cartridge, as one would suspect it DOES have a neck. Otherwise how ya supposed to keep the boolit from parting company? RIGHT PHOTO: Via the chamber cast it appeared as 32 ga shotshells were a close fit, so I availed myself of some from Graf & Son. At the time these Mag-Tech brass hulls were Berdan primed and Mag-Tech offered their #56 Berdan primers, which were absolutely worthless. They'd pierce if you looked at them hard. I converted them to take the 209 primer.

After shortening the cases via a tubing cutter (and not too accurately shortened at that) I used a wide and varied assortment of dies, and Nazi war doctor tools to mangle them down to where they'd fit into the Comblain's chamber. Since the chamber was pretty casual about neck requirements, the hard part was getting them into some semblance of size to hold the slug.

http://www.fototime.com/FEB48295FDD2804/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7C6776752B29618/standard.jpg

The list of dies and odd tools required to create shootable brass was a MAJOR PITA. Not only to keep track of, but the order they were required to be used in was a huge hassel. I was tired of having the reloading bench covered with various diesets and stuff missing out of each, so I finally decided to attempt to make myself a 2 die set and a shell holder. Sometime previously when replaceing the front struts of a '87 Chevy Celebrity, I couldn't throw the old ones away as they featured these magnificent hard chromed 7/8" rods, which were like 10" long. Besides, they were shiney! I decided to utilize them to create a couple dies. Let me tell you that HSS will NOT work for threadcutting on a hard chromed surface. Carbide to the rescue.

I had to guess, and by golly bore the size die into a reasonable facsimile of something that would work. The brass gets worked a whole lot more then I'd like, but they seem pretty tough and the die DOES work, which is the important part.

Buckshot

11-11-2011, 03:56 AM

http://www.fototime.com/EA42AD18D042DA2/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/8A2C7C8756BDCD9/standard.jpg

My lathe is setup to utilize 5C collets, which I have by 32nds. Naturally the 32ga hulls were just a smidge too large for a 9/16" collet and I didn't have a 37/64". Rather then ordering one (I hate to wait) and maybe being out of the creative mood by the time it arrived, I made myself an intermediate collet to use in a 5/8" 5C collet. The alteration to the 209 primer could proceed apace.

http://www.fototime.com/2814C9B404C7122/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: Tools I made up for de and re-priming the cases. On the left, the threaded dealiebob threads into the die threads of a reloading press. This is only to place it at a good useable height. The rod assembly next to it de-primes. It is 2 pieces with the smaller rod traveling in a hole bored through the larger rod. The larger rod sets down over the nose of the 209 primer inside the case. The smaller rod is given a mild swat with a light hammer, and drives the spend primer out of the case.

The large OD piece is the base of the re-capper. A primer is set upon the short central post. the case is placed over it. The rod to the right is centrally drilled so it sits down over the primer and actually drives the case down over the primer. Naturally the operation is to de-prime all the cases, then re-prime them all. RIGHT PHOTO: Two freshly formed, primed and loaded cartridges. The reason for the sticky lable paper around the caseheads is to take up a bit of windage. With the paper in place they're a nice snug fit in the chamber. They expand nice and evenly all around. Without the paper they have a tendancy to expand all on one side, which is a bit more then I like to see, while evenly all around is only a couple thousandths.

http://www.fototime.com/8F2D7613C6820E4/standard.jpg

These are 4 targets of 10 rounds each, fired at 50 yards with new brass process through the new dies, and utilizing 209 primers. The load of Blue Dot only has 7 rounds showing as 3 were used to get the carbine on paper. It really liked the load using SR4759! Considering the casualness of the brass and chamber, plus the fact that the slug was the 292gr Lyman used 'as cast' at barely .460" (.465" grooves at the breech) the groups weren't nearly as bad as I thought they might have been. An interesting item featured by the carbine is it's very fast 16" twist, when you consider the 45 Colt's twist in a pistol is 16" and common 45 cal rifles used a 20" twist. Anyway it's a neat little firearm and magnificently machined, were the majority of martial arms of the time.

..................Buckshot

martinibelgian

11-11-2011, 04:01 AM

DoctorBill,

Ever thought of using your seating die for the 1st few steps (without the seating stem of course)? It is a bit more 'generous' dimensionally, so could help you keep the loss rate down.
The reason for the folding usually lies in the case mouths - burrs, nicks, whatever. Make them as smooth as possible, and the will reduce (not eliminate) the occurrence.

enfield

11-11-2011, 08:29 AM

I agree with RRR I use the snider die first and then a couple bushings in between that and the 450 die and anneal between each step ( about 5 steps ) I have 3 cases that collapsed out of almost 100 that I made. slow but I hate wastin cases !

Ragnarok

11-11-2011, 10:57 AM

The Comblain...I've heard of these..and seen pics(more pics now)...have never seen one in real life!

They look absolutely cool!

DoctorBill

11-11-2011, 12:12 PM

martinibelgian - My LEE Bullet Seating Die is almost just a tube with a
sharp shoulder at the top. No taper or shoulder in it.

The only Die with any Taper or angled shoulder in my set is the Sizing Die.

It is very odd in that the bullet seating 'piston' (plug) just falls out the bottom of
the Bullet Seating Die. Is that nominal for this set ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/38195c0f97.jpg

How the Heck am I supposed to use THAT ! ?

All my other LEE Dies - that piston/plug is too large to go thru the Die....
Slides in and out of the adjuster knob.
The diameter of the outer ring on the M-H Seater Piston/Plug, on mine, is 0.500 inch.

http://www.mynetimages.com/66c45d2305.jpg

Am I missing something ? Does your LEE Bullet Seater Die act that way ?

If not, I'll drop an E-Mail to LEE Precision about this.

DoctorBill

Lead pot

11-11-2011, 01:31 PM

The way your going about this you would be farther ahead going here and get 20 cases and be done with it. You will be money ahead i the long run.
When you get a rifle like the Martini you should take in consideration in what your getting into just to be able to shoot it.
For what little your going to shoot it 20 cases will go a long way.
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/Price_List.pdf

DoctorBill

11-11-2011, 09:46 PM

Lead pot - I read your advice about using Castor oil with Lanolin.

Didn't know where to find any, then I was in a big Drug Store and asked the
Pharmacist about Lanolin.

"Oh sure, we got that...." - took me to the appropriate isle and showed some to me.

Got it - but I was wondering, Lead Pot, if you had bought it for the specified reason
on the box ? Hmmmm ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/41f21b4166.jpg

I sure do hope that you don't have that problem.

Wow ! Now mine are soooo slippery ! Works nice ! Castor Oil: Lanolin (3:1)

DoctorBill

PS - "For what little your going to shoot it 20 cases will go a long way."
Yup - But I'll do it until I get bored.
I don't have an extra $100 for 20 cases, though.
Did you buy some ?
Reformed or extruded and heavy ?
When I'm done, I'd sell you 20 of my cases for $100 !

Lead pot

11-12-2011, 12:49 AM

I buy the lanolin in a 5# bucket I guess it has many uses, it's even good for a Plumbers split open fingers in the dead of winter.
If I had a Martini I would pitch the barrel and put something on the action that would beneficial for my purpose.

fred2892

11-12-2011, 04:26 PM

Doctor Bill, your set looks externally the same as mine. My seater plug is also .5". Looks like bad machining internally on yours as my plug sits up against a step as in conventional dies.
37420

As for forming 24ga magtech brass, there is absolutely no need whatsoever for intermediate dies, forming dies, reamed out sizing dies or whatever. ALL you need is the LEE sizing die, patience and an ability to learn from your mistakes. I am into over 1000 of these now and the more you do, the easier it gets. At first you will lose a few, but persevere and soon enough you will be getting 25 577/450 out of every box.

Fred

DoctorBill

11-13-2011, 03:42 AM

Yesterday, I had one almost completely done and it folded right on the shoulder ! Pisanthrocorpus !

http://www.mynetimages.com/33b23a4843.jpg

Tonight I am trying a new approach.

I am using a piece of pipe as a cheater bar on my Rock Chucker for more leverage.

Also, am trying something with the shoulder as it forms.
I 'dressed up the edge' of the Magtech brass to make it have no defects from the get go.

Filed and chamfered it then polished it with "Mother's Metal Polish".

As I go along, I keep checking for anything that looks like a fold or place where one
can start.

If the edge (looking down on the cartridge from above) has any roughness,
I chamfer again and polish until smooth.
I also polish the case so's things slide as smoothly as possible.
Using the 3:1 Castor Oil:Lanolin sizing lube.

http://www.mynetimages.com/11494e2e40.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/cc091c8776.jpg

I'm trying to keep any crimp "Nucleus" from forming as the shoulder forms.

I E-Mailed LEE Precision about this Die and expect an answer Monday, maybe....

Been snowing today ! Great !

DoctorBill

midnight

11-13-2011, 07:13 AM

Pisanthrocorpus? Never trust anybody? Enlighten me Dr. Bill. The latin in my signature is more easily translated.:kidding:

Bob

Lead pot

11-13-2011, 12:25 PM

From looking at your formed brass the way it is splitting and folding in I would say that your not annealing the brass enough.
I would anneal it again after every pass because it will work harden every time you push the case back into the die.

RMulhern

11-13-2011, 01:12 PM

DB

By the time you invest in time/$$$$ trying to form brass....you could have bought a Shiloh!!

martinibelgian

11-13-2011, 01:16 PM

That kind of fold usually comes in when using (way) too much lube - the lube getting trapped at the shoulder, and nowhere to go to. After each pass, you need to respread the lube on the case to avoid 'pooling', which will help you avoid such events.
FWIW, if you need to use a cheater bar on a Rock Chucker, you're doing something wrong - 1st thing coming to mind is annealing too light/not far enough down - one or both. The other is not enough lube, but seeing the case with the shoulder fold, I doubt that is the issue.
Rick, shooting these Martini's is kinda addictive - and there's no cure! It's actually the challenge of getting them to perform in spite of all the 'issues' these rifles have, that makes it interesting. She's not really forgiving, and will bite you if you hold her wrong, but if you handle her with respect and know her quirks, she'll oblige by performing quite well.

Lead pot

11-13-2011, 01:50 PM

Here I did a little searching for you for this project. Click on the links they posted they might be some help for you.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/91776/Re-577-450-brass
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/2792/Reforming-24-gauge-brass

http://www.ehow.com/how_12118703_make-577-450-martini-henry-brass.html

DoctorBill

11-13-2011, 05:19 PM

By Jove ! Methinks I've got it ! .....Take that RMulhern !

Been reading the POSITIVE posts about this and tried annealing just the very end
of the Magtech Brass before pressing it....then went reeeaaal slooooow.

Then of course, I also dressed the end of the starting shell with a file, reamer and some Mother's Polish.
I polish the lip smooth so as to dissuade any curling or catching on the Die shoulder before
I started the pressing.

Some of the Brass right out of the box has some rough burrs inside the lip - put your finger in there
and spin the case and you'll feel them.

I'm now three for three on my attempts just today ! No cheater bar, either !

http://www.mynetimages.com/3b8eb9907e.jpg

I hope that I'm not just lucky today...but I do believe that it is coming to me.

I'm not as dumb as I look....... http://www.mynetimages.com/7c1ff382aa.jpg

Edited in later....am now ten for ten ! Ain't edicashun neeet ! ? Expurience tuue !

Thanks Lead Pot and Martinibelgian for the help - it did help !

DoctorBill

Pisanthrocorpus - an ancient fossilized creature full of coprolites better known for it's negative nature.
It became extinct with the advent of homo positivus chanduitus yabetcha.

DoctorBill

11-14-2011, 12:11 AM

Since I teach (too useless to do anything else), I thought some poor Bloke who is
just getting into this might like to see the stages of reforming the Brass Magtech
24 ga cases using the LEE Sizing Die only into 577/450 Martini-Henry cases.

http://www.mynetimages.com/83283f1cc0.jpg

At this stage of doing this (rank beginner), I dress up the Magtech cases by
deburring them (Chamfer and sharp 3 edge scraper), file the outer edge clean,
polish the end with steel wool and metal polish, anneal just the end by holding the case
and dropping it into water.
Then I repolish the end, lightly lube the end with 3:1 Castor Oil : Lanolin and start it
into the DIE (it is hard to get it aligned) and slowly press it up.

I pull it out often (ha, ha) and wipe it off and lightly relube it and turn the case 90°
and press again. Should keep the case symmetrical.

Once the shoulder is almost to the neck, I anneal just the end again.
After a polish and light lube wipe, I press it until I feel that relaxation you get
when the neck has started forming.

Take it out, wipe it off, re-lube and press again to get several mm of the neck
formed.

Once the neck starts forming, you are essentially home free......

I anneal the case in the middle with the case sitting in a metal jar cap with water
so the case rim doesn't get hot.

Pick it up with forceps and drop into water (or let it cool by itself), polish the
shoulder and lightly relube.

Then I press the case up, turn it a couple of times, then screw the Die down 1 turn
and do it again until the case is about half way done.

I then grind off about 1-2 mm of the neck, chamfer and smooth and then Finish it off.
I watch for the shell holder to just touch the Die Bottom.
I rotate the shell a couple of times and repress.
Then I check case length and I'm done. Polish it up pretty....

You can grind the neck at the end, but mine hits the top of the Die and starts
to curve in again, so I do it midway.

I finish the case mouth off using a LEE 45-70 case trimmer held in my bench vice,
push and turn to make the end square - then dress it and polish it.

I'm sure that I am stepping on the toes of those who helped me and will be
told how to do this better.

No matter - everyone learns and beginners will be helped into the world of
reforming 577/450 Brass MHR Cases and won't have to mortgage their homes
to pay for them - new.

By reading the preceding posts, you will see how much help I received from
the great guys who contributed to my education.

I want to thank you fellows for helping me get to this point. Where am I ?
Well, at least now, I won't have to worry so much if I lose a case or three....

DoctorBill

PS - what Brass would one use to reform in making the 8mm Lebel Berthier Brass ?
I got's one and the LEE Dies.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/39530/RAC-1907-15-Remington-Berthier-8mmx50R

DoctorBill

11-14-2011, 11:08 PM

I have reformed ten shells since Sunday with no bad ones.

I guess I'm there now. These use large Pistol Primers - the Jameson use large rifle primers.
Hope I don't forget and switch them - getting old and senile!

Had two that had started to form small folds, but I peened them out with a small
watchmaker's hammer ($4 Harbor Freight) on a large Phillips Head screwdriver's curved
tip edge held in my workbench vice.

I think the dressing of the edge helps as some of these cases are definitely extruded
with ridges and non-uniformites.
You can feel them with your finger as you rotate the dressed case.

It is nice to have a bunch of the 577/450 cases and not to have to guard them
with your life from getting lost.

DoctorBill

DoctorBill

11-15-2011, 05:52 PM

I'm about half way thru the second box of Magtech cases and I came up with this...

http://www.mynetimages.com/78401e02f7.jpg

Cute !

I wonder if I can salvage this one ?

Where the Heck did everyone go ? !
Must have become boring.....sorry 'bout that !

Later.....rolled the case edge out, ground most off, peened it flat as before, annealed it
and polished the edge.

http://www.mynetimages.com/4e87596dd3.jpg

Then on to the Die....

http://www.mynetimages.com/fb4a3d7708.jpg

Saved it ! Was a close one, though !

http://www.mynetimages.com/f3baa7a7fe.jpg

Now just grind to length, trim end and polish real pretty.....ooooh !

http://www.mynetimages.com/5064964345.jpg

That is a LEE 45-70 case trimmer on the left.

BTW - I try each and every one in my Martini-Henry Mark II for fit, since a
couple just wouldn't quite go in until I bottomed out the LEE Die.

You don't want to have that happen after you reloaded the round !

DoctorBill

phatman

11-15-2011, 07:29 PM

Rocky Mountain Cartridge is the name of the company that makes the best brass in my opinion.
You can order it with any size primer pocket you want.
Its also very strong as its what Ed Hubel uses in his 30Kpsi 12ga from Hell loads. The hot stuff he uses modified 50 bmg brass.

For 577/450 brass he charges $100/20 not cheap but cheaper than some and you will never wear them out.

Cheers, John

martinibelgian

11-16-2011, 02:05 PM

DoctorBil,

Next time just dremel off the offending bit - both quicker and easier. Just make sure you don't cut it too short...

Cariboo

11-17-2011, 03:06 AM

Doc
thanks for all the info, I've been lurking on this thread with interest as I have a 450/577 Martini Henry with 1 unfired casing and no dies. maybe some day I'll get around to playing with it??

loiner1965

11-17-2011, 03:47 AM

brilliant thread as i done this myself and only made a couple of decent ones but i been told its alot easier using a modified lee f/l die.
will attempt again with this newly aquired info.
i bought around 30 of these cases from a friend who reformed them and i have checked each one and to be honest they are perfect

DoctorBill

11-17-2011, 10:27 AM

loiner1965 - If you have the LEE Die - that is all you need.

Except for the tools and a Butane Torch ! Steel wool, file, chamfering tool, CastorOil:Lanolin case lube.

Anneal by hand until the case starts to get hot on your fingers then dump it in water.
Dress the neck really well - smooth and filed so the edge is smooth and round.
Lube very lightly and wipe with clean fingers. Don't want lube bubbles to form !!!
Go really, really, really slow until the shoulder starts to form (where folds happen)
then the neck starts to form.
Rotate the case constantly.
I mean go slow - checking after every press - for crimps (folds).

Once the neck starts up, re-anneal, clean it off , re-lube and go again and rotate
the case after each press push.

After getting about half there, anneal the whole case while it is sitting in maybe 1/4 inch
of water (to protect the base), cool it, wipe off and light lube again.

Now go slowly until the shell holder butts up to the die.
Rotate often and rotate 3x when done to make it symmetrical.

Check each one in your Martini - if doesn't go in all the way, run into the die to where
the shell holder presses against the die - mine need that last bit, or they won't fit.
On a few, I had to insert some 3x5 card circles into the shell holder to raise the case
up and then do the last bit. This may be peculiar to my Martini though - who knows (?).
Lube to the rim - it does help for that last portion.

If you get impatient and start speeding up, you'll start getting folds and
then you're screwed.
Anneal and try peening the fold flat on the starting shoulder.
Once a fold gets into the formed shoulder - you are essentially screwed.

Trim the neck to size, dress it off smooth, and polish it so it is pretty.

Repeat, over and over until you puke...

DoctorBill

loiner1965

11-17-2011, 03:17 PM

cheers doctor for the encouragement i will retry again when i source some magtec cases

montana_charlie

11-17-2011, 04:25 PM

They all fit into my Mark II Martini-Henry although they measure 2.34 inches long.
Jameson Brass comes 2.31 inches in length.
What IS 577/450 supposed to be in length ? 2.355 inch ?
Make a chamber cast if you want that answered by your rifle.

Otherwise ...

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd577450martinihenry.jpg

CM

martinibelgian

11-17-2011, 05:43 PM

Actualy, the chamber configuration of the MH is such that you could easily use longer brass, there actually is no 'end' to the chamber. As the cartridge predates CIP/SAAMI standardization, there actually are myriads of chamber configurations out there next to the 'recent' CIP one - and they are all correct...
meaning the chamber isn't all that fussy about brass length, a bit longer or shorter doesn't really matter.

herbert buckland

11-17-2011, 06:49 PM

A chamber cast can help in choosing the cass lenth that fits the bullet diameter you are using ,as the chambe is tapperd you can find the case lenth needed so the bullet is a snug fit in the mouth of fired cass by just measuring the cast to find out at what lenth the fired cass is the same as the outside diameter as the cast and will slip hold a bullet ,with this method you will not have to size or crimp your brass and it will last longer

DoctorBill

11-17-2011, 11:27 PM

OK...I finished the two boxes of Magtech 24 ga Brass.

Here are the 41 that I had success with...cost $54.69 (includes shipping).
$1.33 each - not too shabby !

http://www.mynetimages.com/c8602068fe.jpg

and here are the ones that went South on me....

http://www.mynetimages.com/1e151b16a9.jpg

Most are my fault - going too fast, too much lube, some I couldn't correct
a fold no matter what. I usually squash bad brass so no poor bugger
finds it for sale somewhere and wastes his/her money....

Some, I think, were defects in the Brass case which seemed to form folds
no matter how slow and careful I was.

At least, I like to think that was the reason !

I am done now - the 577/450 Brass I now have (89) will last me until the
Cosmos re-collapses back onto itself or until our National debt is paid off...
whichever comes first.

DoctorBill

Buckshot

11-18-2011, 03:42 AM

.............I'm still waiting to hear what the guy at Gadzooks Caseforming Faktory said about his hepper who shipped 18 cases instead of the 20 you paid for? Maybe you'd better re-read the fine print. Possibly it said you could PAY for 20 and they'd ship whatever they felt like shipping, and you'd do well to be pleased they shipped anything at all? [smilie=l: I mean, SERIOUSLY, what's the idea?

Wonder how long I'd last if I quit putting the lube holes in Lyman/RCBS lube size dies? They're a tedious pain, so maybe I should.

Was the owner's name Lester?

http://www.fototime.com/408D2F0C6607094/standard.jpg

..................Buckshot

loiner1965

11-18-2011, 03:48 AM

might try the lube suggested on this thread as i have lyman sizing wax here which i know is brilliant

powderburnerr

11-18-2011, 12:06 PM

Dr, bill , the cases you rejected , might be worth the time to load once and fire , just to see if they blow out and are serviceable , I have had occasion to shoot dented cases and they preformed , sometimes they even lasted, you are not shooting a high intensity ctg, here and as such the brass is a lot more forgiving, might increase your presentage of good cases

Lead pot

11-21-2011, 03:21 PM

No I have never dealt with the Man, but I can see his point too.

Lead pot

11-21-2011, 04:51 PM

The way I look at it is, you just don't wash out the dirty laundry on a open forum first.
You work it out in privet first.

DoctorBill

11-21-2011, 07:13 PM

OK, gentlemen.

I apologize for my posts about my dealings with the Brass Order to......

They are history. No more unwanted "Consumer Reports" Articles.

Erase (delete) your posts referring to mine and then - all gone.

Are we all happy now ? No worries.....

DoctorBill

skeettx

12-07-2011, 03:31 PM

Save the not too bad cases, they make good 577 Snider brass

ALSO, I use an RCBS Bullet Puller Die without collet to start the bottlenecking of the case.

Mike

ddburg

01-06-2012, 10:03 PM

Buckshot

01-07-2012, 12:53 AM

Hey all,
I just got a call from my nephew in Bloomington Indiana, and he told me that Traildust Army Navy Surplus store had about 6, 10 round boxes of original manufactured 450/577 Martini Henry ammo for $30 box. I got 2 earlier and they were KYNOCH from 1951, but are smokeless powder. I just thought I'd pass this along if anyone's looking.

.............I'll bet they're paper patched, use Berdan primers and are loaded with long strand cordite. If you fire any of them I'd bet you get 100% "Click-booms" and probably about 80% after firing will have minor to severe split necks. Maybe even a couple split down into the body also.

..............Buckshot

DoctorBill

01-07-2012, 03:18 PM

DDBurg - Can you possibly save one out from shooting them and pull the bullet
and show the components in order of their place in the cartridge in a good
close up digital photograph that is in good focus ?

If possible measure the bullet's length and major diameter with a caliper ?

If Paper Patched, gently unroll the paper and include that in the photograph ?

We would ALL much appreciate the learning experience - for Posterity !
It is important and worth the effort.

DoctorBill

acmech

01-18-2012, 02:14 AM

Don't know if you guys have seen this, but heres a video on sizing cases from magtech brass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRnSOrPbho

Sti1911

09-25-2012, 02:54 AM

i know i am a bit late to this post but i have been doing my homework(a lot there of) on forming .577/450M-H casings and on the rifles themselves. I have always wanted one and now that I am a Gunsmithing student at Yavapai College in Arizona I finally have a perfect excuse to buy one. I have to say first that even though I haven't talked to anyone here THANK YOU all so much for the massive volumes of information that you have provided for the ying yangs like me that fore some reason have the smell of black powder oozing out of their pores. I am sure i will run into issues along the way and its good knowing that there are a great deal of people who have felt the pain and sweat the same sweat that i will soon be shedding.

Surculus

06-06-2014, 09:33 PM

Hey!..."Groan" all you want...the mold makes a bullit that works in my rifles..I never understood the RCBS designation of '.465-480'..this must reflect the bullets after sizing...'cause they do dump out of the mold at from .468-.469...just like the guy that recomended the mold told me it would.

No, their designation means that using a specific alloy [Lyman #2, usually] it will throw a nominally .465 dia bobo that weighs 480gr.

[Yes, I realize this is an old, dormant thread but it seems nobody ever responded to this question. My OCD just couldn't let this sleeping dog lie, since I'm hoping to finally find a circular tuit wrt making some MH brass out of the 24ga hulls I got so long ago...] ;)

johnson1942

07-10-2014, 08:52 PM

i probably missed it but i will ask anyways, what twist is it?

Mgvande

04-22-2017, 06:40 PM

skeettx

04-22-2017, 07:11 PM

Yes, I have a .466 diameter mould and some even use .470
Mike

Mgvande

04-27-2017, 01:27 PM

I have a .460 mold I'm going to try out. It looks like I will have to patch it up.

Buckshot

05-03-2017, 03:20 AM

Back from the dead.
i just got a mk3 at a gun show. I'm wondering about the bullets and what people are doing with paper patching. I know these were originally pp rounds but has anyone had success with just lead rounds minus the paper patching? Also what molds seem to be good. I graduated from the snider and now looking to battle the zulu's��

..............Depends up what the barrel slugs. The British Militaria board had Lee create several custom moulds for both the Snider and a couple Martini models several years ago.

http://www.fototime.com/36D423A1D578B61/standard.jpg

The above was the one @ .470" and 475grs aimed at the MkIV. I'm NOT the one to talk to about the 577-450 and BP :-) I tried it one time with 20 rounds in my MkIV and after 5 rounds I was looking around for someone else to shoot the rest of them off! I also have a 577-450 Sporter on a Greener action with a barrel having ratchet rifling. Never tried BP with it either.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

With the MkIV Martini my best results had been with the above, which is the Lee 405gr solid FN paper patched 'as cast' of pure lead with .004" bond and a mild smokless load (1330 fps) but this isn't the board to discuss that.

If I were you I'd contact Accurate Moulds @ http://www.accuratemolds.com/index.php

There are a TON of 46 and 47 caliber moulds (check 'catalog') . You'd need to check with him as to specifics re: Your bore dimensions and what you're wanting to do/accomplish.

................Buckshot

Mgvande

05-04-2017, 07:35 PM

Thanks for the feedback Buckshot. I patched up some of my Beaumont bullets at 430gr and I am just waiting on my dies so I can make some brass. I will see if my current mold works prior to buying another. I'm kinda stoked about smacking an elk with it this fall. Do you think it will kill an elk. Haha
One more thing after the first firing I'm hoping to neck size. Would CH4D be a good resource for a neck sizing die once I find my chamber diameter?

ascast

05-04-2017, 07:48 PM

Buckshot -- what is ratchet rifling?

Mgvande

05-04-2017, 11:24 PM

194764http://castboolits.gunloads.com/webkit-fake-url://356ca4a1-a034-4a95-a98d-89b4858ba6e0/imagejpeg

Buckshot

05-06-2017, 04:30 AM

http://www.fototime.com/9109FBD2EB448DC/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/53FB8D9ED9D6592/standard.jpg

...........Mgvande put up a nice chart, but since I spent time drawing a pit-chure and converted it to Jpeg I'd go ahead and add it anyway :-) I think that the 'New" rifling called 5-R is similar, with just one pressure side? As you can see the barrel has 7 grooves.

http://www.fototime.com/B1B7E53F8AE2ECF/standard.jpg

Here's a couple slugs driven through the barrel. The one on the right is a 500gr Lee and the left (and of .470" OD ) is one of the custom Lee's. It has a bit better definition to it. On the left slug facing directly towards the camera is one of the barrel 'grooves'. Due to the lighting on the top and middle drive band you can see the shade of the lead that's the pressure edge (groove). THat Lee boolit @.459" isn't fat enough to give a good picture of what's going on.

...............Buckshot