Izzit my dies?

[HawgBonz]

Info:
2001 45-70 Marlin 1895CB Ballard rifling 26" barrel slugged .457 thru & "high" .458ish at chamber's end.
Trying to shoot 405gr PB's at mild velocity ~1300 or 1400fps.
Not really interested in PC or GC's at least for the time being if they can be avoided at all. Tryin to KISS.
Dies: Lee Steel 45-70 w/FCD
Lube: LLA
Starline brass

Situation.
..Been having some real ugly groups. More like patterns. And leading. Thru some back-n-forth with one of y'all's most generous and patient compadre's we figgered out my boolits were too small. I guess on a positive note the Lee 457-405 casts dead on the money. I now have a coupla other moulds that throw ~.461ish and have the Lee sizer honed to size @ .460 if needed. One mold being a Lyman 457193.

Problem.
..Seated a bootlit in a full sized and belled case then pulled it. They feel right seating but it's tapered t'wards the base and the LLA was MIA from contact surfaces. Can't remember the exact measurements, but it was fairly pronounced and undersized with both WW+1%Sn and 16:1.
I did use the Lee FCD. Seated 2 more to try in the chamber for fit. Crimped cartridge seated no problem. Tried uncrimped and it fell back in the case during chambering. Felt no resistance at all either time.

Questions.
..What's the latest consensus on good ways to make the case mo' soft lead friendly and do I need to ditch the FCD for somethin else? I've read on Lyman M dies and RCBS cowboy dies, and the ever present Lee Universal expander. I generally associate "universal" with does-nothin-well. But could be wrong in this case. And there seems to be some issues with gettin the exact right size for an individual's situation with RCBS or Lyman. So I'm curious what's the thought? Been readin around for 2 days or so and still confused. Thanks.. d:^)

[44magLeo]

It could be expander in the expander die. It should expand the case mouth to about .001 or .002 under the size of your cast bullet.
On my 44 Mag dies the expander only opens the case mouth to about .427 or .428. Way to small for the fat bullets .432 I need In my Marlin.
I Bought the Lee universal expander die an NOE's M style expander plugs for the 44 and the &.62X54 R Mosin Nagant. It takes .314 cast. the Die set came with a .305 Expander for jacketed and I bought the extra expander for the 303 British that uses a .308 expander. Fine for jacketed but again to small for my cast.
Some recommend Track of the Wolf for their expanders. All I could find on their site was for black powder cartridges, nothing fir my guns.
Leo

[HawgBonz]

Lookin at the Track of the Wolf's website now.
They have different size expanders for 45-70 to use in the Lee die. Called John this morning and he sez they do fit in my Lee Expander die. Ordered an assortment of those to try (.458,.459, and .460"). At $2.99 each I can't see why not.

..Called Lyman this morning to see if there were different expander sizes available for the M die. They guy I talked with didn't seem to know much and best I could gather it's just the one size.

Mo' leaded voodoo... d;^)

[robg]

i had a problem of loose boolits in my 45-70 ppu brass with the lee 405g boolit .when it used different brass the problem went away, ppu 45-70 brass is much thinner in the neck than other brass .i am using lee dies.

[HawgBonz]

..I checked measurement at the case mouth/bullet seating area and as fully sized in the Lee FL die it was squeezed down to ~.455". I raised the sizing die until I got something more like .458". The ~.460" as dropped 457193's seem to fit better and the case chambers nicely. Lubed with Dusty's Frog Snot and seated to 2.550". The boolit seems to be in past the crimping groove but it's over max OAL if I try to use the crimping groove. Unless I'm doing somethin schtoopit... again.. :-?

..Anyways, loaded some up with H4198 and Unique to see what would happen. The first couple with the 4198 had to be readjusted and they turned out to be my flyers. The others were into ~2" @ 85 yards. Not great, but better. I could prolly hunt that if needed given the ranges/conditions I'll be trying it in. Thick Southeastern woodlands on paper company property.

..My Unique loads strung vertically about 6" with very little side to side dispersal. I was playing with the Lee dippers on that load and can't say as I had the most precise charges. Could small variations in weight account for that much stringing with that kindof powder?

..Track of the Wolf expanders are s'posed to be here Saturday now that I may have somethin else figgered out.. d:^)

[Maven]

Two suggestions: (1) Try no more than 14 gr. of Unique with those CB's. (Please ignore if you're already doing so.) For load work-ups and target practice, do yo need a FCD? I have several, but I've never crimped a CB and when I have, accuracy wasn't improved.

[HawgBonz]

Two suggestions: (1) Try no more than 14 gr. of Unique with those CB's. (Please ignore if you're already doing so.) For load work-ups and target practice, do yo need a FCD? I have several, but I've never crimped a CB and when I have, accuracy wasn't improved.

..Been running 15gr. Which may be too much for this combination. When I tried it with the undersized boolits from the Lee moulds I got leading and 1100fps. Accuracy was "ok". When I tried it with a bit better fitting boolit I got 1275. Less leading, I think, but accuracy was bad. Lotsa horizontal. Mebbe too fast for the soft lead I wanna run. Today when I tried it with the 16:1 427193's @ 460ish I can't tell that I got any leading. But I didn't take the chrony. Sorry thing. :-?

..I was under the impression that I needed the crimp for the lever gun. But mebbe I don't at these load levels? I sure ain't married to it. Tried using the crimp in the Lee seater for the 45 Colt and accuracy improved but also had other changes at the same time (454 dia bootils). Tryin to read up on crimping is like studying cat herding. Kinda like everything else lead related. Keeps it interesting, I reckon. :lol:

..I do get a kick outta hearing that "thwack" with this setup. :-D
The only reason I went lever was the abundance of hogs on our hunt club.
Multiple shot opportunities are not uncommon. :Fire:

[uscra112]

The LEE "expander die" is not a neck expander at all. From the factory, it only puts a flare at the case mouth.

Nonetheless I bought two, because it's easier to make proper expander mandrels for it than for my clutch of M-dies. Lee has a good idea there, but they spoiled it by not supplying proper mandrels in an adequate range of sizes. (Lyman doesn't either, which is why I make my own.**

Sounds like the aftermarket will take up the slack. Aah, the blessings of free enterprise!

If the sizer die has shrunk the neck I.D. smaller than .001" less than your bullet, the neck needs to be expanded all the way down, not just at the mouth.

When your Track of the Wolf expanders get there, measure them to see whether they are true cylinders, with a slightly enlarged diameter at the top to provide just a hint of flare.

Personally I expand to a diameter such that I can press a bullet in with just my fingers, (a "drag fit" in machinist parlance), and leave it at that. But these days I'm only using my ammo in single shots. For a lever gun I'd have to add a moderate to heavy crimp to hold it in position.

** Taking it to extremes, I discovered a decade or so ago, when loading .38 Special for my Colt Officers Model, that factors such neck wall thickness and brass temper affect the expansion enough that I needed expanders graded in half-thou increments! I also checked the expanded cases with a gage pin to find and toss out any outliers. With a revolver that inherently accurate, it made a difference detectable in slow fire. Don't ignore these possibilities even when loading .45-70.