Black Powder Target Riffle Assoc Creedmoor National Championships 3-day weekend

[Chill Wills]

9/23/2020
We don't get much reporting on the much talked about 800, 900 and 1000yd Creedmoor Matches. Loads, Rifles, Bullets and Powder; there might be some interest in what some of the better competitors at this match are using.

Practice Thursday, 10 shots at each, 800y, 900, and 1000yds Friday and Saturday. Sunday will be two 15 shot matches at 1000yds. The eight matches agg makes up the winners.

I will try to be the reporter, provide data and pictures.

So far, I know the match is limited to 36 entries. Many of the competitors attending have a lot of time in these longrange Creedmoor events, on the order of decades. Shiloh is providing a prize rifle and many other manufactures providing prizes and equipment as well. Pure Fun and Bragging rights is the biggest motivation to doing well.

If this sounds interesting, check in as I add posts and pictures.

Michael Rix

[hawkenhunter50]

Sounds like lots of fun. Will be looking forward to following along. Sounds like a nice prize to win.

[slim1836]

I too look toward reading your reports, thanks.

Slim

[Edward]

Will look for it /thanks Ed

[Dave T]

I'll never shoot it but I'm interested in what works and how they go about it (loading, shooting techniques, etc).

Dave

[Chill Wills]

I lost some of the first part of this post. Moving it from word ??????
Sorry, I can not re-type it tonight.

Today was practice day.
About 30 of the 40 or so competitors were here for the practice.
They arrived form all over the country. The match is being held in Colorado. One of the owners of Shiloh rifles is here.

Often when coming from other parts of the country, sight-settings are a little off here at altitude.

We shot 800yd and 1000yds for sight-settings. 900 was optional after the formal practice was over at 13:00.


Squads of four were assigned to a target. Two on the line and two in the pits. My partner Jack and I started out in the pits pulling and marking targets.

When the time came for us to go to the line, the riflemen that shot and we pulled and marked targets for drove to the pit area and pulled our targets. Jack and I chose to both shoot at the same time on the same target, called pair firing. We take turns shooting, the target goes down.. is marked as to the shot location and value and then they run the target back up. So it looks like the two of us prone, rifles and each a ground scope to read the target as well as watch wind flags and keep and eye on the all important mirage.

We confirmed our sights and since I am shooting a new batch of powder, I confirmed my load accuracy. I hope I am happy with it because really, it is a little too late if it showed it was shooting poorly.

Most riflemen did as Jack and I, and stopped shooting for the day to tend to other needed stuff, in my case, finish loading the bullets into the last 100 rounds of brass that already had the primer, powder and wad installed. No compression. I shoot an uncompressed load for best accuracy. Others may have their own opinion. And, ....that is what makes a rifle match!


I will have some pictures tomorrow to post. Hopefully! I think my camera came out of my kit and is still in the pits.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I competed in the World Creedmoor shoot in Brisbane, Australia in 2006. I used a Pedersoli 45/70 which had been rechambered to 45/90 (Match Reamer) and used the late Dick Trent inspired PGT boolit over 78gn of Swiss No 1 1/2.

Before the match, I was in disbelief that an open sighted black powder rifle could regularly hit a 20 inch bull at 1,000 yards, but I learnt quickly, and fired well, to end up a member of the winning team.

[Chill Wills]

I competed in the World Creedmoor shoot in Brisbane, Australia in 2006.
Yes. That was the Ernie Stallman - Badger barrels sponsored matches. Those were very good events. I shot in the 2002 and 2004 World Creedmoor match events but only had the where-with-all to go to RSA Championships in 2006. Two big trips were out of the question. I would have liked to have been at your match.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Dave Gulo? owner of Buffalo Arms used an original 1877 Sharps Borchard a beautiful original!

[Chill Wills]

Dave Gulo? owner of Buffalo Arms used an original 1877 Sharps Borchard a beautiful original!

Dave Gullo. He has that rifle still and I will try to get a picture posted of it. Here he is on the target next to me in the pits pulling targets yesterday,

[Gunlaker]

Have a great time at the match! I expect that the competition will be tight :-) Robert sure puts on a good one and the CRC is the best facility for it that I've ever been to.

Chris.

[John Boy]

We don't get much reporting on the much talked about 800, 900 and 1000yd Creedmoor Matches. Loads, Rifles, Bullets and Powder; there might be some interest in what some of the better competitors at this match are using.
the BPC News prints Match Scores in each subscription of the magazines. Sometimes yes and no the for the Matches, the Loads, Rifles, Bullets and Powder; there might be some interest in what some of the better competitors at this match are using are listed

[Chill Wills]

Tricky winds and hot weather were the rule today.
I did not get many pictures today. I was busy just to keep up with the schedule. My partner Jack and I did not impress anyone with our scores today, but it was good to be back shooting longrange after not shooting since 2015. I was a little rusty and likely will be tomorrow too.

Not everyone was however. Dave Gullo was in form and made it look easy. He my have shot a BPTRA Agg record for the 30 shot Creedmoor match. He posted a 278-4X out of a possible 300. That is a big score anytime. The rest of the pack scored in the 225 to 255 range and worked hard for it too.
I will post the scoreboard.

Tomorrow is day two of the same ten shots each at 800, 900, 1000yd and the same hot and breezy weather, then Sunday mother nature is giving us cold air with high winds for the two-15 shot 1000yd matches (30 shot agg).

If you have questions about the rifles, equipment on the line or the target pits, let me know and I can take pictures and write answers.268334

This is a good chance to see what the firing line set up looks like or how the big Creedmoor targets are scored. I'll do my best to show you what goes on and what it is like.

[Chill Wills]

Saturday, day 2 is done. One day to go.
Today was much like day 1 for heat and winds BUT the day was overcast, which removes one of the two big tools in deciding how to adjust to the wind conditions. Do you know what the second one is?

Maybe it is assumed everyone knows about the role wind plays in target rifle matches. The rifleman needs to adjust the rifle for each shot to keep up with the changing conditions. Right? You can't just sight in, find the rifles windage zero, elevation zero and hold center and shoot.
So, more than a game of shooting bullets into the center of the target (because you are good at holding center) BPCR and especially Long-range Creedmoor is a game of reading the wind and mirage conditions. Figuring how much right wind for example has strengthened from the last shot and how much the tail wind has dropped off, putting the two together and adjusting that from the point your last bullet landed from center so this next one will hit center. Some days it can make your head spin.

Add to that the little talked about, but most important issue of fouling control (FC)between shots. Wondering if the last shot that went high was due to poor FC, or was it due to some other unseen condition.

That makes indoor 22rf sound easy by comparison. Nether game is easy. I don't mean to say 22 is easy. They each have their own set of challenges.
Bad *** Wallace - I talked to Dave and he agreed to pose with his original 1878 Sharps Borchardt rifle.

[Chill Wills]

Here is the updated day two scoreboard.

[Chill Wills]

I had a little bit of the rust of not shooting this game since 2015 knocked off yesterday. Today had fewer errors.
As an example, my second shot yesterday I crossfired, which is a miss. Ouch! That reduces your score by 10 points and you feel dumb.

I shot a master score today which is my class.

After the match today, we had a dinner together at the range, door prizes and a grand-door prize Shiloh rifle givenaway. My shooting partner won the rifle. Wow! I was the lucky recipient of a gift certificate for one Buffalo Arms Co. bullet mold. Happy!

The Shiloh rifle was awarded in an interesting way. After the match while waiting for dinner, all the competitors names were written on a square on large poster board and hung on the target frame. Our friend Jimbo Terry, shooting from the bench, put a single shot into it from 1000yds and the square/name hit by the bullet was the winner of the Shiloh rifle.
Here is Jimbo behind the rifle with Kenny Wasserberger helping him adjust the rest before shooting...

[semtav]

Thanks for the updates !!!!

[country gent]

Enjoying this post a lot. Wind is the great equalizer, Its interesting to watch the top shooters shooting in the wind their scores may drop 3-5 points while the newer shooters are down 15-20. The only way to learn to shoot in the wind is to do it.:-P I always enjoyed the "tough" days wind, light changes, mirage. I learned way more then.

A good way to get an idea of wind is set up a flag spotting scope and if you have it a wind meter watch these in conjunction with the mirage in the spotting scope. Mount the ind meter on the flags staff if your scope is abe to read it and make your estimate then check the meter. Then its just knowing what that speed does to your bullet.

The scores these guys shoot with 1870s technologies is really amazing and impressive.

[Chill Wills]

Sunday, Day 3 the last day is shot at the 1000yd line only.
Most creedmoor match formats are 10 shots at 800y, 900y and 1000yds for a total of 30 record shots.
Today to speed the match up and to get people who are going home a start, the format today is only twice to the line for 15 shots each. So still 30 shots today and all from the long line.
As it happens, the warm weather and medium winds of the past few days turned into 42F and overcast at the start of the morning and winds out of 1 O'clock, 25MPH gusting to 35MPH. OUCH! These are tough conditions to shoot in and keep your equipment from blowing to New Mexico much less to put a bullet through the target over a 1/2 mile away.

You find tricks and systems to do this by trying to shoot a "condition" as best you can. Each rifleman has 35 minutes for unlimited sighters and 15 shots, so you probe around to get on paper (target) and then try to only shoot the "condition" when it returns. All the wile trying to keep your ammo, ground scope, wiping patches and hat from departing the county. Needless to say, the scores were a little lower today.
My partner and I pulled a few rabbits out of hats to day, which is to say we got lucky a few times and we moved up in the standings.

In the class system' competitors are ranked in what is called class. These are groups of competitors who have accumulated high enough scores to enter a class. In the silhouette game the lowest or entry level is B class and then moving up is A, AA, AAA,and Master Class. In the round target games, classes often are called Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Master. Creedmoor uses this second naming system.
In the higher or bigger matches like a National Championship there will be a top level of awards above master called Open and in this match three places were awarded in an open class.

The outstanding rifleman again today was Dave Gullo who can make the most difficult conditions look easy. Dave won today's match and is the overall match winner. Watching him make these wind calls and then shooting bullet into the middle time after time is very impressive. Dave had a large lead on everyone and won easily. Shooting into second place is Steve Baldwin. You may know him as the maker of the outstanding line of tang match sights "Baldwin Sights".
In third place over all is Hugh Wilson, the long time voice of the NRA BPCR nationals at Whittington Center.

(I am going to start another post)

[Chill Wills]

Here is the scoreboard. I better get it posted before sleep overcomes me.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Thanks Chill for your time and efforts to report and post results.

[Chill Wills]

In the other classes below on the scoreboard you may see some names known to this forum.
On a personal note, I will point out that it came as a big surprise to me that I ended up winning 2nd Master class due to the better showing in the high winds of today's match.
Here is a picture of the match winner Dave Gullo and shooting partner John Venhaus. And a second picture myself receiving the 2nd place master award.

[Chill Wills]

BTW - did I mention this 1000yd game is all shot with cast bullets? :D
:drinks:


Also- I did not proof read the above post. I will get to it tomorrow. Good night.

[kokomokid]

BTW - did I mention this 1000yd game is all shot with cast bullets? :D
:drinks:


Also- I did not proof read the above post. I will get to it tomorrow. Good night.

I do miss the matches at Raton but health and age do catch up. Glad to see the hard work that Robert and the other boys do to put this match on. Maybe next year???

[Chill Wills]

Here is a picture of the typical set-up on the firing line with a rifleman and scorekeeper. The scorekeeper can also coach the rifleman and up off the ground often has a good view of the range conditions. There is also a class known to international matches where the rifleman is completely on their own. In other words, no coaching allowed. This type shooting (no coaching) was shot once a year at the American Creedmoor Cup in AZ for almost ten years and is being carried on at Lodi, Wisconsin. A no coaching match makes a demanding match extra hard.

[mdatlanta]

Thanks for posting this!

[Don McDowell]

Here is a picture of the typical set-up in the line with a rifleman and scorekeeper. The scorekeeper can also coach the rifleman and up off the ground often has a good view of the range conditions. There is also a class known to international matches where the rifleman is completely on their own. In other words, no coaching allowed. This type shooting (no coaching) was shot once a year at the American Creedmoor Cup in AZ for almost ten years and is being carried on at Lodi, Wisconsin. A no coaching match makes a demanding match extra hard.

It's also done there in Byers, under the High Plains Money match moniker, and is a part of the matches in Phoenix during the big shootlpalooza they do there in March. I like the Cup style matches a whole bunch, it's quite a challenge and tons of fun.
Good write up Michael.

[Chill Wills]

Some of you might be interested in how the target is scored in the pits and the information is received at the firing line.

The 6 foot by 6 foot target is in a frame that moves up and down. Up and above the safe pit the target looks like it is sitting just above the ground. Pulled down and it is available to be seen by the pit crew and marked.

At the start of the relay the target is clean, meaning no holes or all holes patched with either black or white tape patch.
The first shot comes through the target and the pit crew lowers target, finds the hole, places the shot location marker dowel into the bullet hole with the contrasting (either black or white) side facing the shooter.
At the same time the shot location (bullet hole) is found, its value is marked with the shot value disk.(red disk) In the picture, in clockwise descending order you can see the locations of the "X" value starting at 3 O'clock and moving down is the 10, the 9 is at the center bottom, the 8 value is in the lower left, 7 is at the 9 O'clock and then the lowly 6 is marked in the same hole as the "X". You have to understand that if your shot location disk is not in the very center of the target, but rather in the area outside of the largest circle, that is a "6", ...not an X.
268521

Back at the firing line, through the scope, the shot location and value will be seen when the target is raised.

For all the shots to come after the first, the procedure is the same with this addition. The new hole is found, the shot disk is removed from the old hole and patched with either a black or white paster.

Note, the shot location disk is reversible - black on one side and white on the other. Always plug it into the bullet hole with the contrasting side showing.

[Don McDowell]

Here's a link to the official final score in tabular form
https://bptra.org/match-scores

[flint45]

I would love to try it sometime used to shoot buffalo matches things like that but I always wanted to get way out there and try the longshots.

[Don McDowell]

It's challenging, it's frustrating, and it's fun, definitely recommend everyone try it at least once.

[ndnchf]

I've never done it, but it looks like fun. Thanks for the explanation.

[mattw]

These guys are shooters... I have only tried that game a time or 2, never had my own rifle and never put in the time to get good. Not exactly common in the area I live. We do have the NMLRA matches at Friendship and I love to go watch those matches. The under hammer bench rifles are really cool! These guys get my respect, 1000 yards with a gun shooting black and all of the cleaning and maintenance issues associated with them and in the high plains with ungodly wind and eleveations. I have shot a couple of 880 yard matches with my 6mmx284 and that is more than difficult in the the wind and mirage with high power optics. BP guns have always fascinated me, but until I live where I can shoot like that and until I can learn from someone... I am going to pass.

Thanks for your work in covering this event, I enjoyed the reports.

[Don McDowell]

Matt, they also shoot long range at the Winnequah gun club in Lodi Wisconsin, Harris Minnesota, and at Camp Grayling Michigan.

[Lead pot]

Matt, you can always come up and shoot with me. https://www.tcgc.net/ club is more pistol oriented than rifle but there are a few of us that make smoke. The cowboys have monthly shoots and they are a fair sized bunch.

If you would like to get familiar with the sharps or other falling block rifles I have enough for you to use.
Also I will start shooting at Friendship next season so come and join me and shoot their silhouette match. I will bring the rifle and ammo and other equipment you can use.

But I will warn you, it's habit forming :)
Then there are the gong shoots also out west mostly like at Alliance Neb, the Quigley at Forsyth Mt. this is the largest with 600 plus competitors that come from almost every state and international, The Big Hill shoot at Baker MT. This is the most scenic range and growing attendance every year.

For us and more for your area the silhouette matches like at Friendship, Effingham, Alma MI and the long range matches in the spring and fall at Lodi WI and Harris MN, Camp Atterbury, located in south-central Indiana, about 4 miles west of Edinburgh, Indiana,

Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Here (I hope) is a copy of the top three rifleman's load data and equipment. I will try to find more examples because there is so much variation in what is used to good effect. Notice the three case lengths used. 45-100 (2"-6/10ths), 45-90 (2"-4/10ths) and our steady friend the 45-70 Govt. You don't need a big cartridge to play. Shoot what you have to get started.

[earlmck]

Thanks for your work in getting us this writeup Chill. Very informative! I can see that my level of shooting wouldn't get me much of a score on those targets -- I'd be feeling good when I collected a "6"!

I waited waaay too long to get into the BPCR game but have been trying my hand (and eye!) at it for the past couple years. Us Central Oregon boys do a monthly (fourth weekend) shoot at the COSSA range east of Bend. Steel Buffalo gong targets out to 1000 yards with a 1200 yarder that we throw in once or twice a year.

[Deadeye Bly]

Matt, Lead pot is spot on. You are right in the middle of lots of shooting within a fairly easy drive for you. Plus you can be in Eastern KY or GA with a hard days ride. Step out of the shadows and give it a try. Those of us that are addicted don't mind a little traveling.

[Chill Wills]

I would like to see someone win one of these with a paperpatch bullet sometime. I'm not talking about a local match win, but a match with the countries best Creedmoor riflemen in attendance. I know it is going to happen. It is just a mater of time. I think the double diameter concept has great possibilities. Double Diameter PP may be the best of both worlds. With the DD PP bullet, the alloy makeup may not be as critical. With the bore diameter bullets, the alloy needs to be right on.

I want to check the standings of this match to see who used PP bullets and who placed highest with them.

[mattw]

Matt, Lead pot is spot on. You are right in the middle of lots of shooting within a fairly easy drive for you. Plus you can be in Eastern KY or GA with a hard days ride. Step out of the shadows and give it a try. Those of us that are addicted don't mind a little traveling.

I would love to, used to travel for smokeless bench shoots, IPSC and IDPA before the kids. They are 13 and 17 now, I can retire this year and the stars are starting to align. I only have 2 BP guns, my modern inline for deer and a Shiloh Sharps paper cartridge gun that I have never fired. Watching the BP bench guys as Friendship has always been something I have enjoyed.

[Lead pot]

Chill, I think you will down the line.
The PP is just starting to get a bite in the last few years and most still haven't spent enough time figuring out what it takes to get the most from them.
Getting the diameter, alloy, and most important getting a proper seal holding the gas behind the bullet so the verticals are held down. This can be worked out more with a patched bullet to groove diameter than a bore diameter. The groove diameter will react more like a GG but the advantage the patched bullet has is holding down the lead smears that destroys the accuracy.
Then some get the patched diameter to large and have to use a lot of pressure seating the round in the chamber and this spikes the verticals by compressing a load more when using a minimal compressed powder load and the other side is a bullet patched too far under bore with a very hard alloy that will show signs of gas cutting along with dirt diggers.

I think you can find some just local and regional match shooters that are capable of holding their own at the international matches it they would just join in.

[Don McDowell]

As far as I know, Eddie,Kenny and myself were shooting patched. Eddie was shooting a relatively new to him rifle that he had just put new sights on, so sight settings were a work in progress. I was shooting my new Shiloh 77, and when the match was over I've put about 300 rounds thru it, all but 15 maybe 20 have been fired in competition. Kenny was shooting his Dora rifle, 24 lb 45 2 7/8.
I will say that once that rifle and me get used to one another I think it will do well. I am very happy that for the first time I shot the 900 yard target clean, and did it both days.

[Chill Wills]

I will say that once that rifle and me get used to one another I think it will do well. I am very happy that for the first time I shot the 900 yard target clean, and did it both days.

Byers is a tough range most days. Shooting a clean 900yds target at Byers (no missing the target - not all X's) is cause for celebration. I am sure it feels good. I have 50 to 60 creedmoor match days in there at the Byers range, and I can count on the fingers of one hand when I have shot the whole day clean. That in its self is a victory.

[Don McDowell]

The conditions friday and saturday were about the mildest I've ever seen in the last 7 or 8 years I've shot a match there. I was really happy with the performance the rifle turned in, I had no settings for 8-9 or 1000 when we started, but was able to quickly extrapolate some once that first 800 relay got over.
This 77 needs a real solid grip on the wrist, and the sticks need to be quite a bit lower than my 74's or hi walls. I think it may be a great rifle for shooting off a wrist rest. Maybe if mother nature see's fit to give us some moisture, I'll get a chance to get out on my range and do some of that 8 letter p word with it, before loading ammo and heading to Phoenix. I need about another 75 rounds thru it to have enough fired cases to shoot that match.
I have also replaced the long range sight with a midrange, as even in the worst of that head wind in the first relay on Sunday I was only up about 17 points on the staff from the previous two days.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt, I pretty much agree and feel the same way as you write above. The same was said 20 or more years ago, that sooner of later someone would emerge and then several someones will. Still waiting.
For the nine years I put on the American Creedmoor Cup I offered an award Cup for the high paperpatch creedmoor score just to promote the use of PP bullets.

I got my first PP bullet mold from Tom Ballard in the late 1980's and have worked on the PP bullet game since. I have a dedicated PP chambered rifle and used PP bullets in conventional chambered rifles. The best I could do with them was almost as good as my GG shooting, but with more work at the line when I needed to be paying attention to conditions, rifleman skills and shooting. In short, I found the extra work a distraction to making best possible scores.

PP bullets were my preferred bullet in the Gibbs muzzle loader. It took no extra effort in the off-line loading and was therefor better due to the non-leading issue.
I had Paul Jones make a two diameter bullet for PP in 2002 or '03. It is for a 45 cal rifle. I am interested in a 40 cal for DD PP and may have one made to shoot in the 13 twist 40-70 Sharps Straight. ...still thinking about what that bullet might be designed like.

I wonder who else besides the three Wyoming boys shot PP bullets in this championship?

[Lead pot]

Well you just might have 4 next season if the timing works out. I been wanting to shoot your match for several years.
Looked for your range twice once coming back from Arizona and just last year when I took the cookie munchers to Co. They wanted to see the mountains.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt the Colorado rifle club is 9 miles east and 9 miles north of Byers, or about 25 miles south of Wiggins. Michaels watkins range is about 2 miles straight south of Watkins co.

[Lead pot]

I was too far East. When we left Colorado Springs I went east of 25 I don't remember the Rt. # but I remember going through Kiowa heading north and went to Bryers turned east and turned north at Last Chance.

[Don McDowell]

When you got off on 36 at Byers, you were almost there, needed to turn north on the Rector/Leader road.

[Lead pot]

I should have stopped and ask. :)