Stupid lube question, 45 acp

[Martin Luber]

You guys have amped up my casting quality. I work a lot with accurate competition pistols and almost always used my own "boolets". I have some commercial 200 gr heads and from a Ranson Rest, and my hand, they shoot better. So why?

I am sure they are not weighed or in tight spec there. The hardness is 15 vs 11 for mine. They have hard lube that stays in the groove all the way to the berm. I use soft nra 50-50. I never considered using hard as my loads are only at 700 fps and I always thought hard lube choice was a cosmetic user friendly matter.

Should I rethink this?

[Wayne Smith]

Every pistol or rifle is unique unto itself. When you get to this level of accuracy that variable is as important as any other. What does your gun want?

[Bazoo]

What you might try is removing the lube from some of your store bought bullets and replacing with 50/50. That'll tell you of it's the lube or the bullet your gun prefers.

I've read that a rifle will shoot better sometimes if only part of the lube grooves are lubed, using just enough for the job. So excess lube hinders accuracy for some reason. Lee mentions it in his book, as well as Veral Smith in his. It could be, the hard lube on the bought bullets is just enough, even though it's not "better".

[Springfield]

11 might be a touch too soft and the front of the bullet is getting damaged when hitting the feed ramp? There are more variable to consider than just lube. Same shape bullet, same diameter?

[Bazoo]

Wheel weights works fine for 45 acp, and they are more like 9-10 BHN.

[Winger Ed.]

There's more going on than just the hardness and lube.

I'd try a few different things- like your lube on the factory bullets, etc.
But maybe the pistol just doesn't like your mold's design.

I'm not a big time Lee mold guy, but their 200 SWC is among the most accurate .45ACPs I every shot.
And I made them out of whatever trash I could get ahold of at the time,
and lubed them with all the kid's broken crayons mixed with motor oil.

[megasupermagnum]

It wasn't too long ago I did a test in 45 acp of both lube and bullets. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?394174-45-ACP-lube-and-bullet-test

Short version:

Lube made a difference, although minimal. The different bullets did matter quite a bit. The amazing thing is that both bullets were 200 grain SWC's of nearly identical design. All bullets were weight sorted. The only real difference was the Lee is a bevel base, and the Arsenal is a flat base. I've been wanting to do a comparison between the Arsenal, and the NOE hollow point version, as I'm told the hollow point shoots even better.

Bullet weight distribution is an amazing thing, and it seems to really matter with these short stubby bullets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

what distance?
Have you really given a thorough test comparison? or is this just a swag?

[Martin Luber]

These are both H&G #68, the real deal, fired from a Ransom Rest, multiple 10 shot groups, at 50 yards. This yielded groups 2-4". 2" typically for the cjn commercial, 4" for my cast with flyers, sized at .452 in a Star luber. l didn't check the factory diameters though. I will try my lube in the commercial heads. Fewer flyers in commercial.

Difference (specifically the one or two flyers in an otherwise tight group) may simply be better consistency from commercial due to long continuous runs at steady state casting conditions whereas l am running only 10# at most, at a time from a 20 lb pot.

[Martin Luber]

There is also a way to calculate the weighted group size using polar coordinates to evaluate true central tendency. It's tedious so I haven't done it in years.

I was wondering if I was negligent in my assumption that full or partially full lube grooves didn't mater.
Thanks guys

[wv109323]

I don't think it is the lube. With the softer lead I would seat a few boolits and then pull them. I would measure the pulled bullet diameter. The softer bullet may be getting sized down when you seat it. Die manufacturers almost always have their neck expander dimension sized for jacketed bullets, which means your brass neck size could be .448". I would also pay attention to what is happening when you taper crimp. You may be introducing bullet deformation in that process. The sweet spot for the 200 swc is usually around 750 to 775 fps.

[Bazoo]

Based on the new info, it very well could be, as you surmised, a consistency issue. Fliers indicate voids in the bullets, or out of balance bullets. How diligent are you at culling incompletely filled driving bands?

[megasupermagnum]

I guess I just assumed you sorted bullets, since you mentioned competition pistols. If you don't, sort your bullets both visually, and weight. When I did that above test, I had culled any bullet that was plus or minus 0.2 grains. That was not a competition pistol I'm shooting. That was a bone stock SIG P220 with open sights.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

They have hard lube that stays in the groove all the way to the berm. I use soft nra 50-50. I never considered using hard as my loads are only at 700 fps and I always thought hard lube choice was a cosmetic user friendly matter.

Should I rethink this?


SNIP...

I was wondering if I was negligent in my assumption that full or partially full lube grooves didn't mater.
Thanks guys

It does matter, or maybe better put, it "might" matter...BUT, it will not likely matter until you are shooting beyond 100 yds. Also, any remaining NRA 50-50 in the grooves, should fling off as the boolit exits the muzzle, so then it shouldn't matter with that lube.

I agree with others about fliers being caused by casting...a internal void or incomplete fillout.

[LenH]

I use hardball alloy for my Bullseye bullets. It is something that I have done for the last few years. I use Randy Lee's Tac-1 lube that I bought a kit from him
more years ago than I care to admit. I find flecks of lube on the 25 yard Timed & Rapid fire, usually in hot weather. I put a bit more carnauba than the recipe
called for and is a bit harder than normal. I shoot a H&G S242 which comes out to about 168 gr with said alloy, but my gun will hold the 10 ring at 50 yards
from a rest.

[Rich/WIS]

I shoot the Lee 200 SWC in my Range Officer, but didn't like the bevel base and milled the top of the mold down enough to remove it. Weighs in around 190 grains with range lead. Have used both the 50/50 and XLOX 2500 and no issues with leading. Not sure of accuracy as I haven't tested it and don't have a Ransom rest. Would recover bullets from the 25 yard berm and there was still lube in the groove. Preferred the flat base as it was less messy without the ring of lube at the base and easier to see any imperfections.

[fcvan]

When I started casting for myself, I pan lubed with Javalina, and loaded un-sized. When I did get a Lyman sizer I sized my 9mm and 38 SPL at .358, and my 45 at .452 diameter. The only time I had a change in performance was when I ran out of Javalina and had to use a different lube. Instant leading and a drop off of accuracy.

All of my 9mm weapons prefer .358, had some rounds tumble at 15 yards when I tried .357 sizing. Shot them up, got rid of that sizing die to a member here. As far as lead hardness, my lead was coming from the range at work where the loads were swaged HBWC bullets which are really soft. 9mm, 38 SPL, and 41 Magnum, all shot this well, except for the aforementioned switch in lube mentioned above. The 41 looked like it had cake frosting in the bore. 10 rounds of low pressure gas checked boolits fixed that right up.

Before I started PC-ing everything, I experimented with plain based gas checks made from soda can aluminum. I have a 200 gr RNHP mold which I launched at 1950 FPS from a 20" carbine chambered in 45 Colt. Devastating. Now I can do the same by just ASBBPC (shake and bake) and sizing to 452.

I don't know what is going on in your 45, but the 2 variables mentioned (boolit size and lube) may be the culprit. I do know that the softer boolits with Javalina shot well in many 45s owned by friends, the PCd boolits as well. Oh, and the softer lead boolits actually mushroomed at 800 FPS, my usual loading of 6 gr of Unique. Max listed in Lyman 49 is 7.3, but I never loaded more than 7 gr. My usual 6 gr was merely to save powder, and it shot well in my 45, and all of my friend's 45s.

Good luck, hope you get this sorted out.

[greenjoytj]

These are both H&G #68, the real deal, fired from a Ransom Rest, multiple 10 shot groups, at 50 yards. This yielded groups 2-4". 2" typically for the cjn commercial, 4" for my cast with flyers, sized at .452 in a Star luber. l didn't check the factory diameters though. I will try my lube in the commercial heads. Fewer flyers in commercial.

Difference (specifically the one or two flyers in an otherwise tight group) may simply be better consistency from commercial due to long continuous runs at steady state casting conditions whereas l am running only 10# at most, at a time from a 20 lb pot.

I would make an accurate comparison between the commercial bullet and your home cast bullet.
Check for weight and consistency of the weight and the weight spread.
Swapping your lube into the commercial cast bullet is a good test too.

I know from my own casting experience that casting at a steady consistent temperature is vital to maintaining consistent cast bullet weight.
I can not do long session of casting, so I pay for this by doing long session of weight culling and grouping my cast bullets into 0.1 grain groups so when I reload a box of 50 ctg’s I know the bullets in the box are at worst + or - .1 grain. If I’ve cast enough they may be all the same weight.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Just lately I too have been thinking about all the commercial 45 cast boolits I went through. No leading problems, very accurate, hard alloy and hard lube. Heavy taper crimp too because of a match barrel. Maybe I should get another 1911 because no other handgun in my experience shot cast so easily. Or perhaps it was the hard lube which I have not tried.

[Grump]

Like stated above, I would start with measuring the sized diameters followed by A/B testing of the commercial boolits with the lube removed and replaced with your lube. Some reliable-looking testing I have encountered online over the years has shown accuracy differences from differing lubes. Seem to remember (Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most!) some lubes gave differing accuracy between regular handgun velocities and use in rifles.

Get ALL the commercial lube out. I suggest melting followed by a solvent swab. Oven for reliable temperature control.

And my BHN 8 boolits do just fine in the .45 ACP at 850 FPS. No leading and the guns seem to be limited to 3-inch groups at 50 yards no matter what boolit or jaxteded I use. Except for one brand which will remain unmentioned. Don't think they are in business any more.

[John Boy]

Martin, if what you are doing works ... why reinvent the wheel

[Petrol & Powder]

From the information provided, I'm not sure the lube is the variable that is responsible for the difference in accuracy.

You have a lot variables in play:
Hardness, lube, maybe the style of the base, consistency between bullets, etc.

[hk940]

Have you tried powder coating?
I was going to go the pan lube method, until I read about powder coating. I have not tried that yet as I just loaded up about 3,000 rounds and don't have any cases left!
I do have about 1,500 commercial heads left. some 185g and some 200g both SWC some are dry wax lubed and some with conventional (?) lube.

[243winxb]

Bevel base 200 gr more accurate. Its the BB. The base of the bullet has less distortion. A soft flat base will have lead pushed back to the base, make bumps.

Try a Lyman 200 gr lswc with the bevel base. Its my most accurate cast bullet of 4 different ones at 50 yards.

Up your bhn to 15. Add some linotype. Soft produces deformed nose on loading and my skid in the rifling.

[hk940]

I have the Lee 200g SWC mold, not Lyman. I have not used it yet as I had several thousand commercial cast heads I wanted to use up.
I have about 200 lbs of assorted lead, pure lead, wheel weights, some unknown and melted down bullets.
I have a hardness tester I made and will use that to check hardness

[David2011]

What are these “head” things some people are mentioning?

Martin, get a grasp on your variables. Steady temperature, steady pour/cut/drop cycles and a consistent alloy. Compare the diameter of your boolits to your commercial boolits. At your velocity I don’t believe hard lubes provide any benefit. I like to shoot low velocity .45 ACP too.

Common wisdom has it that commercial boolits are hard and use hard lube to withstand shipping and not for any functional reason.

[Larry Gibson]

Quite a few years back I had access to a ransom rest and did a lot of accuracy testing at 25 and 50 yards of various pistols and revolvers using both factory and my own loads. I also used jacketed and cast of my own and commercial.

I found with the 45 ACP in both M1911s and M1917s that hard cast bullets with a BHN of 14 - 15 or greater always shot more accurately than softer cast. That was regardless of the initial sizing or the lube used [several different 50/50 lubes, Lyman graphite lube or the hard wax lube in the commercial leaded bullets]. I also found that light 50 foot indoor 45 ACP loads (185 - 200 gr bullets at 700 - 750 fps) that shot very well at that range were poor performers at 25 and 50 yards when compared to hard cast 200 - 205 SWCs at 850 +/- fps. Numerous reasons for this, especially in semi-auto's. BTW, I never gat the accuracy at 500 yards with any cast 225-230 gr RN bullet that I got with the H&G's 205 gr FB'd SWC.

[Martin Luber]

Thanks all, at longer distances, I think velocity is a factor for operability, but not precision.

From a machine rest, l could get fantastic groups but I am not a machine rest hence any radial velocity in the hold pattern will have a stronger tendency to swing a slow bullet out of the group. Higher velocity reduces that factor. I also got good groups with dead soft swaged hp (Star or Zero) bullets but at 770 fps range. No fliers in RR groups and good results freehand...again velocity is helping me. Worse results freehand with those running slower.

So as others point out velocity helps operability. I will reexamine my loads, sort them, and perhaps, go faster to see what happens. I am guessing that consistency is the key to commercial.

[toallmy]

I have one particular 45acp that does its best with hard cast no matter what boolits and lube I try , it's a Colt and it seems the rifling is shallower .