Lee Enfield 303 No 4 MK 1 project

[buck1]

Nothing special I am sure , but it "called" to me from the gun shop rack. It seems in good order with less than steller wood. I couldnt leave it all alone next to the germ 8MM, So I took her home .
303 brit, 5 grove clean bbl, 300/600 yd flip peep sight, action stamped England ,M47C,1944.
I know very little about these guns, and plan to sporterize this one.
I would love to hear some do and do nots on this gun, along the lines of scope mts, triggers, and stock work brass, and bullets ,etc.
Basicly any info on this gun or links for parts will be very well recived as I am green as can be on the Enfields. Thanks in advance ...Buck :drinks:

[HABCAN]

Of course, it's YOUR rifle to do with as you wish, but my first horrified reaction is to advise leaving it strictly 'stock'! OK, maybe swap out the flip-flop for a 'ladder' rear sight. Those rifles were built and regulated to shoot as-is, and often their accuracy goes west if sporterized. Just my two cents.

[skeet1]

Buck1,
Please don't Bubba the Enfield. If the wood is in that bad a condition, new can be found to rejuvenate it. Full military examples are getting harder to find all the time and prices are going up. If the rifle is changed to a sporter the value will drop. If you really want a sporter Enfield they can be found at almost any gun show.

Skeet1

[Freightman]

If you have to have a scope you can get no-gunsmith bases that work fine look on ebay and a micro-peep can be had for the rear which is as good as a scope out to 100yds from http://www.gunpartscorp.com/ Look under SMLE then #4 MK1-2 they also have stocks.
Sporterizing will mess up your accuracy as the #4 needs 5-8# of upword pressure on the front of the barrel to be accurate. Have fun

[eka]

Like has already been said. For your sporter Enfield, find one thats already been sporterized and if it's not to your liking, build on it. Same thing I did in the 03A3. I have one each way. I wouldn't want to change a stock rifle myself, but if someone else has already taken the liberty with it, then all bets are off and the skies the limit. Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

Keith

[buck1]

WOW! I had no idea!
It would look that I have a restorization project insted of a sporterization ahead of me. I had planed to use this wood on it with a fitted org brass butt plate ............)see pic)


But it now seems I should find orig wood for her. I never liked the full length wood but if it needs it , Thats what I will do.

As far as the Scope mt goes (no drill), Are the ALUM with set screw mts any good? Or are the steel with the wedge better at 3x the price?

And the trigger is bad enugh to make you cry. (any sugestions there?)

Thanks guys , for info and for keeping me from a bad mistake...Buck :-D

[longbow]

Not sure I can add much if any to what has been said except tp chime in and say "Please don't sporterize it!".

There is lots of good info here:

http://www.303british.com/

You will have to forgive the current poltical overtones on the home page, we are in the midst of a political crisis in Canada.

Another site with loading info:

http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/303brit/

And yet more info:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/no4/index.asp

And if you decide to refinish it:

http://www.jouster.com/Bulletin/refinishing.htm
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/wood_cleaning_article.htm

Longbow

[beemer]

The S&K mount works very well, it is steel and fits between the sight and charging bridge. The NRA has a small paper back book called British Enfield Rifles, it goes into proper bedding and trigger work. If you are going to start messing with the bedding on these rifles that book WILL help, they are a little different.

I have two that have been D&T for weaver mounts but are still in military dress. One was unisued, it was done before they got expensive or hard to find. I would not do it today but it is still one fo my favorite rifles.

HABCAN mentioned cutting off the stock and ruining accuracy. From the way the grain ran one of my forestocks was cut out beside a knot. The thing warped and pulled the zero about 12 inches to the left at 100 yds. I couldn't fix it so I cut it off to a half stock. What had been a really good shooter couldn't be made to shoot anything right, and believe me I tried. A new stock was found and bedded and all was right again. I thought it was just the rifle but he hit that one.

Once Enfields were ugly and odd, after learning why and the thinking behind some of the features and some history of the rifles they became something else.

beemer

[curator]

Generally I agree with the others who advocate not "sporterizing" your No4Mk1. However, A Lee Enfield can "wear" other wood for sporting purposes without butchering it. Simply save the old parts for re-assembling at a later date. Just like seat-covers and fancy hubcaps that can be enjoyed and then replaced when and if you sell the car.

New wood on a No4Mk1 rifle can be frustrating as far as influencing accuracy. I have found that the forearm needs to be expertly fitted for best results. There is good information on the web that details the forearm bedding of the No4Mk1 action for best accuracy. A short, "sporter" forearm that allows for the barrel to be free-floated often results in good accuracy without a lot of fiddling. The buttstock should be tight without any wiggle. Shooting full power loads is more fun with a nice recoil pad and accuracy is enhanced if the stock is the correct length for the shooter. Military issue butts are usually too short for most long-armed Americans, and that brass butt plate is a real bruiser.

Enjoy your rifle, keep all the parts and don't make permanent changes to it and you will be able to have fun with it and still retain its collectable value long term.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I picked up one at a garage sale here in Vegas a few months ago. It came with a Webley revolver which I sold fast.

This Lithgow 1945 model had been bubbicized with a cut down stock and a cheapo 4 x scope. I removed the scope and mount and replaced the trigger with a "ball bearing" trigger that was available and had my gunnie mount it.

It has a nice crisp 3# pull now with no creep. I added a decent recoil pad and I am working on getting some sizing dies reamed out by Buckshot as this thing has a .316 bore per cerrosafe.

It has great peep sights and groups j-words bullets well at 50 yds. I have great hopes for this old shooter as it has a two groove barrel in excellent shape albiet large grooves.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I got my first #4 back in `63 for $13.95 from the JC Penny Co. It was made by Savage for the Brits. The rear sight was broken off so I spent $5 for a Williams peep sight. I only re-finished the wood leaving it all Mil. I now have a Mk2 and a #3 Mk1. I sold a #5 Jungle carbine because you couldn`t put 2 shots near each other at any time. Back in `63 100 rds. of mil. surplus ammo cost $7.99 also from JC Pennys. :) Robert

[longbow]

I'm no expert here but have another comment on sporterizing anyway (go figure).

I know lots of Lee Enfields have been cut (some nice and some not so nice) or had wood replaced, etc. to sporterize them but my understanding of the SMLE is that it requires something like 4 to 6 lbs. of upward force on the barrel near the muzzle and the military stocks were designed to do that.

Don't have specifics at hand but I have read that in more than one place.

I have a No. 5 and so does my son and both are now shooting not bad with cast. As of late I have been keeping groups in the 1 1/2" to 2" size at 50 yards. Certainly not stellar accuracy but that is with stock sights and my stock old eyes so that is adding some error. I found that shimming the barrel near the front of the forearm seemed to help.

I know, I am drifting off topic here (old brain too!) but the point was sporterizing and accuracy. I am not sure free floating is a benefit. Or maybe it is more like ~ bed it properly and apply pressure as recommended, or free float it to remove any other influence?

Just a couple of random thoughts. If anyone can advise what's best we might all learn something ~ well, I will anyway.

Longbow

[beemer]

I have tinkered around with Enfield bedding a good bit and sometimes it still gives fits. The first one was a #1, I ran close to 500 rds of mid-surp ammo through it just tuning it up. The bedding was awfull, it was bowed down in the middle, after scratching, scrapping ,shooting and repeating it turned into one of the most accurate Enfields I have ever owned. I floated it, didn't work at all, 5 lbs up preasure at the muzzle took care of it. Trouble was it shot J-words, bore was to big for any mould I have. Can't tell you how many deer my brother has taken with it. The #4 I mention in an earlier post would not shoot anyway I tried with the short forestock. After it was restocked full lenght it will shoot floated, go figure.

beemer

[buck1]

great advice from all! Thank you!!

BUT I took it out to the range today and burnt some $factory$ ammo in it. From what I can tell from the fired cases it may just be a 303 EPPS (improved chamber!)
The shoulder gets pushed back a bit and looks short and Ackleyish.
So now I am sort of unsure what ave to follow ...ANY ADVICE????????
By the way the dies cost almost as much as the gun!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=194630

[longbow]

If it is .303 Epps there is reloading data at the www.303british.com site in the link I posted above.

If you are considering rebarreling to a standard cartridge you could likely pick up a surplus .303 barrel or you could rebarrel to something like .444 Marlin, .45-70 or even .458 x 2" for something a little different. I've been wanting to do that but leaving everything else stock. That would raise a few eyebrows at the range when you pulled the trigger!

Longbow

[buck1]

That it a great site!! Thanks very much!!

[Boz330]

Chance are that your chamber is stock. The Enfields were made so that you could throw a dead cat in the chamber and still get the round in. These were made for combat conditions. When you get reloading dies get a neck sizer only otherwise your brass won't last long. Good luck.

Bob

[Crash_Corrigan]

You want to cast some cerrosafe into the chamber and the first 2 inches of the barrel.


I have a No4 Mark 1 from 1945 Marked "Longbranch" and when I did the above it came out to be a .316 dia barrel with only two grooves. My efforts t make a CB work failed as I had used .312 boolits and they leaded really bad and had no accuracy whatever.


From the cast of the chamber you will also be able to determine the shape of the chamber for the casing. If you do have an 'improved' chamber then fireforming your brass should take care of that.

You want to have the largest dia on you boolit to be .001 or .002 bigger than the bore no matter how big it is. Some of those barrels had bores of up .318. I wish mine was that big....I could size down some of those hundreds of 8MM rounds I have here to .320 and be good to go.

However my bore is .316 so I will have to beagle up a Lee mold to make boolits of the correct diameter. When you cast the cerrosafe use a funnel of an index card to keep that alloy away from any irregularities near the chamber.

You only need the first half of the casing and a few inches of the barrel to be cast as that is the info you will be looking for. If too much is poured and you get it above the base of the cartridge case you will have difficulty in removing the casting. Don't ask me how I know this.

My barrel is .316 dia. 1/4 " after the case mouth and closes down to .309 near the muzzle I'm thinking a bore riding loverin design might really work well. Once I get this thing to shoot with my Lee die boolits I might get a mountian mold to make me a decent die with a .316 base and couple of driving bands and a smaller nose and foresection for the long run.

In either case you have a fine rifle which will with decent care outlive you and your grandchildren.

[skeet1]

Buck1
I just stated using a set of Lee Collet Dies in my No.4 Mk1* They are the best neck sizing dies for the use I have found, specially for the enfields that have extra log chamber bodies. I think I will get a few sets for some of my other rifles.

Skeet1

[HABCAN]

A BIG +1 re: LEE Collet dies for the .303 Brit!

I got the 'deluxe' set so can resize brass pickups FL to make sure they fit my chamber the first time around.

[JeffinNZ]

Absolutely agree on the Lee collet dies.

[Bigjohn]

LEE Collet Dies, I use them for my .303's.

Jim at CBE (Cast Bullet Engineering) is making some molds suitable for the larger bore diameters in .303" rifles.

Just google Cast Bullet Engineering; and his prices should be more reasonable for US Customers due to the low Aussie Dollar.

John.

[buck1]

Thats some great help guys!
After mic-ing the old case , The shoulder still looks ackley but the body taper is mostly unchanged . Thats leading me toward the standard 303 brit again, and a set of Lee collet dies and then to Cast Bullet Engineering ! But I still need to cast the chamber .Thanks guys.....Buck

[sav300]

Buck.I bought a set of no-gunsmithing mounts for my No4 and the brand name is "Cad-tech) nice mounts and a snap to fit.

[Boz330]

Lee neck size dies are what I use. Isn't the Cad-tech a copy of the original sniper scope mount for the Enfield?

Bob

[buck1]

Buck.I bought a set of no-gunsmithing mounts for my No4 and the brand name is "Cad-tech) nice mounts and a snap to fit.

Thanks for the heads up , But I cant seem to find it .

[longbow]

buck1:

Here's some sites. The Cad Technik is the first site at Brownells.

Longbow

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1502&title=ENFIELD+No.+4+%26+No.+5

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=12461&title=NO-DRILL%2c+NO-TAP+SCOPE+MOUNT

http://www.marstar.ca/ac-optics/mounts-bolt.shtm

[BruceB]

Re: fitting brass to chamber

For quite a while, owing to the grossly-oversized chambers in most miltary .303s, I'd create a "false shoulder" on new brass to hold the casehead against the bolt-face for the first firing. This would make the shoulder blow forward, rather than stretching the web area of the new case.

A recent large batch of new Winchester .303 brass refused to go along with this "false shoulder" program, so I followed some advice received here at CB and lightly oiled the cases for the initial firing. This works well, and I can't detect any thinning of the walls ahead of the casehead.

Another way of fireforming without damaging the critical web area, is to seat a cast bullet so far out that it engages the rifling and holds the case back against the boltface for the first firing. Fireforming loads should have enough "oomph" to ensure proper expansion of the case to fill the chamber.

Once the brass has been fireformed to a particular chamber, it is IMPERATIVE, as others have said, that the shoulder not be set back again. I've found that neck-sizing without disturbing shoulder location is easily accomplished using a .308 WINCHESTER sizing die. Only the neck area of a .303 case is touched by a .308 sizer. The slightly-smaller neck diameter has not proven to be a problem, and one can either substitute the .303 expander ball or just leave the original .308 expander in place. Case life is un-affected to date.

Another possibility is using an even smaller expander assembly (7mm?) and relying on a Lyman "M" expander. I also have no trouble in using a Universal expander on .303 cases with .308-spec necks to flare the mouth just enough for seating.

My .303 rounds headspace on the shoulder, because I ignore the rim's relationship to the barrel face. Size the neck just far enough back to locate the shoulder correctly for positive chambering with easy camming of the bolt handle, and we are in hawg heaven with a fine rifle AND good case life.

[atr]

The .303 was my first big game rifle, and its accounted for lots of deer. !! Its a pretty potent cartridge.
My advice about sporterizing is don't if you have a full military in good condition.

I have a full military which I refuse to sporterize and I have sporterized one that was is sorry condition when I bought it. Of the two I find the full military the most fun to shoot and it certainly generates alot of looks at the range.

I don't know of any trigger you can purchase which will replace the original military version. But Ive gotten used to the two stage pull of military triggers so its not a big deal with me.

The enfield barrels are NOT removeable so you are stuck with what you have now.
There are scope mountings which attach to the side of the receiver (check Midsouth shooters supply)
The cartridge is head-spaced on the rim, but Enfield bore chambers are notorious for being a bit on the oversize so don't be surprised if you see brass starting to separate just above the base, especially if you fill length resize. IF you hand load for this cartridge go to neck sizing only.
The magazine for these rifles were NOT intended to be removed for loading but were loaded via a stripper clip. You can still get these although just about everbody removes the magazine for loading.
As far as accuracy goes,,,the bolt / locking lug arrangement is NOT as solid as found on a Mauser or Springfield (which is a modified Mauser action). In short the action itself does not lend itself to the kind of accuracy you will get with a Mauser or Springfield. If you do sporterize then the forarm should be glass bedded or free floating. I found free floating to work best. This rifle was made for COMBAT, not target shooting.
Next chance I get I will attach a picture of the one I sporterized alongside the military.
I hope this helps!!

[HABCAN]

Gee atr, I didn't know that L/E barrels were quote 'NOT removable'.....................I guess the dozens we removed over the years were just installed 'loose'? And all those Ishys with the new .308 bores/chamberings? Sorry, didn't mean to be a smartass!

[Hip's Ax]

The enfield barrels are NOT removeable so you are stuck with what you have now.

Enfield barrels are removed and replaced exactly the same way as Mausers and Springfields etc. One only needs a barrel vise and the proper receiver wrench.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/rebarrelno4/index.asp

[Hardcast416taylor]

I see that Midway has a replacement trigger for the LE, not cheap but probably adjustable. :roll: Robert

[atr]

sorry guys......
years ago I tried to get a barrel removed from a #4 SMLE....and it did not unscrew...rather it just twisted the receiver
I was told (Christies in Sacto) that some barrels had the threads coated on manuf. and that this made the barrel difficult if not impossible to remove....

[waydownsouth]

saw one that had been twisted because bubba had used a piece of flat bar through the action rather than an action wrench.

there is more chance of bending the barrel than twisting the action if done right

after 50 years or more the barrels often rust into the actions making them hard to remove

[northmn]

Most every thing about the #4 that needs to be said has been said. Neck size the brass. They used to recommend getting a different bolt face to tighten up the chamber. I never did as they were sold out. Mostly I agree that it is a combat rifle and is to be appreciated for that. I got mine to shoot well enough for deer hunting, never got into shooting field mice at 100 yards. My best luck with cast came with heavy bullets in my Longbranch. I was able to use a Lee 200 grain as cast. I was lucky and could go .314. Got a deer with the load which was close to the old 215 grain load. (the Lee bullet was about 210) Some claim filler helps in some Enfields with worn throats. If you use the military ladder sight, you may find that the big close range loop is off from the ladder. When hunting I left my sight upright as I could sight it in. The Lyman #48 manual gives some cast loads that look good. Almsot all manuals are tested with the #3. The #4 is stronger, but hot loads can give case problems. Got my first deer with a #4 my father bought me, handed it down to my son who got his first deer with it. Still have the rifle. Its a toss up between the SMLE and my Marlin cowboy 30-30 as to my favorite cast bullet hunting rifle with smokeless.

Northmn

[Fry]

Even though LE's are maggoty up here North of your border, you'd be best off restoring it than bubba'ing it!

[buck1]

THANKS soooo much to everyone! A god send of help and info!!!!!!!

[Dan Cash]

I have a "bubba" SMLE that could be improved by your wood. Want to sell?

[atr]

a pretty consistant shooter. the side mount sight is by Williams, but I think B-Square also has side mounts which will work. The trigger is still stock military.

[buck1]

a pretty consistant shooter. the side mount sight is by Williams, but I think B-Square also has side mounts which will work. The trigger is still stock military.

Thats nice!! But now you got to tell all about the mag/floorplate shes wearing!!!:mrgreen:

[atr]

thanks buck1...
I cut down the original magazine, shortened the spring and then re-brazed the bottom of the magazine back on.....it was the only part of the gun that I didn't finish blueing....

[atr]

the barrel "floats" and the stock was from the old Herters company. Maybe some of you remember that name.

[buck1]

the barrel "floats" and the stock was from the old Herters company. Maybe some of you remember that name.

Herters! THE WORLDS BESTESSESS GOODEREST STUFF EVER MADE! LOL

VERY NICE INDEEDE!! :drinks:

[atr]

and I am still using the same Herters press for all my reloading

[Gunfreak25]

I'm sorry. But you said less than stellar wood? BAHH!! Lets see a pic of that old furniture! You'd be amazed at what you can fix or clean up. If a stock is mainly intact, it CAN be saved and made to look nice. I want to see a picture of it! :D

[Superfly]

Does anybody want some factory ammo for a three ouht three i have about 80 rounds


Pm if you want it pay shipping that is all i need.

[buck1]

I'll take it!

[Phil]

"Herter's World Famous Model Perfect." That one? Bought TONS of stuff from them, wish they were still in business. They had great fly tying stuff too. Great looking No.4 by the way. Think I'll re-do my magazine like you did. I like it.

[buck1]

Superfly said to donate the shipping to the sight!! Heck of a nice guy!!
$10.00 donated to sight through paypal just now.....Buck




Does anybody want some factory ammo for a three ouht three i have about 80 rounds


Pm if you want it pay shipping that is all i need.

[unclebill]

Herters! THE WORLDS BESTESSESS GOODEREST STUFF EVER MADE! LOL

VERY NICE INDEEDE!! :drinks:

ive got 2 enfields
AND a set of HERTERS 303 brit dies![smilie=l:

[atr]

Buck ,,
here is that photo you wanted....

[atr]

Buck,,,
Im still fumbling around with "attachment"...hope this helps...

[buck1]

Thanks ATR!! I pmed you before I saw these pics. CLASSIE!!!

[buck1]

I'm sorry. But you said less than stellar wood? BAHH!! Lets see a pic of that old furniture! You'd be amazed at what you can fix or clean up. If a stock is mainly intact, it CAN be saved and made to look nice. I want to see a picture of it! :D

My wife has the digi camera, but the 1/4" chips in the stock were enugh to make me find some new wood. Its on the way!!Thanks....Buck :castmine: