.455 Webley Loads Using 45 AR Brass

[Colony]

I have a 1916 Webley Mk VI which was converted (countersunk chambers, not shaved) for 45 Auto Rim. I've been scouring multiple fora on the subject of handloading for this revolver. It is the main reason I am about to start hand loading; that and the fact that I also have a .38 Mk IV Webley.

Along with the 45 AR cases I will be using original style 265 grain HBRN .455 cast bullets. For simplicity I have focused on Unique as the powder of choice and would like to approach but not exceed original bore pressures and velocities.

Reloaders on all of the many blogs I have viewed, using the same components, swear by a range of amounts of Unique powder for their loads; anywhere from 4.0 (sometimes less) to 5.0 grains (rarely more), with the latter seeming to be more common. I'm leaning toward working up to 5.0 grains.

Would appreciate any experience and reinforcement as to a good "sweet spot" amount of Unique to use. Thanks.

Now if only large primers would show up on the market again....!

[Scott.M]

I load 5grs of Unique in AR cases. I've seen published 455 data with 4.5 to 5grs with that bullet loaded in the 455 Webley case. Since the AR is more copious, like charges should be less pressure.

[Drm50]

Got a Colt NS that I use 45AR cases with rims thinned. Gun is excellent and didn’t want to CS cylinder. My bullet is from modified Lyman Ideal, 322gr Gould Express HP. Boolit is 272gr hp. I settled on 4.5grs of Unique. I still have original notes, I think I started at 4.0grs and went up to 6.0
Size to .457”. This is fixed sight gun and will print at 25’ as good as you can hold it.

[Scott.M]

Forgot to mention that I'm shooting them in a MkVI Webley also.

[Outpost75]

.455 Pressure Test Data - Submitted by Larry Gibson, Lake Havasu, AZ

Test Firearm – T/C Contender .45 Colt 10” with strain gage interface to Oehler M43 Ballistic Test System

All test loads assembled in Starline .45 Schofield brass shortened to 0.87” length and rims turned,

Winchester LP primer, weighed charges of 3.5 grains Alliant Bullseye throughout.

Accurate 45-240H (252 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.29” – 639 fps, 11,400 psi max.*

• Only one shot recorded a high enough pressure to measure on the strain gage

Accurate 45-260H (269 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.30” – 648 fps, 14 Sd, ES 42, 11,800 psi, ES 900 psi

Accurate 45-290H (295 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.298” – 672 fps, 11 Sd, 32 ES, 12,600 psi, ES 1100 psi
Expected velocity drop in 6” barrel revolver estimated -100 to 150 fps, depending upon cylinder gap.
 
.455 Revolver Vs. Rook Rifle Velocity Test Data

_____________________________Velocity (fps), Sd _________Kirst Conversion______”Rook Rifle”
_____________________________Webley Mk VI 6” Bbl.______Ruger ROA 7-1/2”______H&R 20”
_____________________________Cylinder gap 0.018”_______Cylinder gap 0.004”_____Solid Bbl.

Kynoch K42 Mk VIz 265-grain FMJ___537 fps, 29 Sd___________580 fps, 32 Sd________680 fps, 40 Sd

Handloads Assembled in Hornady .455 Mk II cases (0.77”) with Winchester LP primers

#452374 225-gr. LRN 5.0 Unique____648 fps, 24 Sd____________716 fps, 11 Sd_______814 fps, 14 Sd

MiHec 265-gr. Mk I 4.5 Unique______538 fps, 24 Sd___________679 fps, 32 Sd________788 fps, 11 Sd

Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______622 fps, 6 Sd____________720 fps. 16 Sd________813 fps, 18 Sd

Handload in Starline .45 Schofield Case modified to .455 Mk I (0.87”)

Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______546 fps, 16 Sd__________641 fps, 9 Sd_________753 fps, 11 Sd

Column Means By Gun_________Webley 0.018” cyl.gap_____Ruger 0.004” cyl. gap_____20-inch rifle, solid barrel

Pooled Avg. All Samples:___________578 fps________________667 fps______________770 fps

Velocity Gain from Webley__________0____________________+89 fps______________+192 fps

[Scott.M]

.455 Pressure Test Data - Submitted by Larry Gibson, Lake Havasu, AZ

Test Firearm – T/C Contender .45 Colt 10” with strain gage interface to Oehler M43 Ballistic Test System

All test loads assembled in Starline .45 Schofield brass shortened to 0.87” length and rims turned,

Winchester LP primer, weighed charges of 3.5 grains Alliant Bullseye throughout.

Accurate 45-240H (252 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.29” – 639 fps, 11,400 psi max.*

• Only one shot recorded a high enough pressure to measure on the strain gage

Accurate 45-260H (269 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.30” – 648 fps, 14 Sd, ES 42, 11,800 psi, ES 900 psi

Accurate 45-290H (295 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.298” – 672 fps, 11 Sd, 32 ES, 12,600 psi, ES 1100 psi
Expected velocity drop in 6” barrel revolver estimated -100 to 150 fps, depending upon cylinder gap.
 
.455 Revolver Vs. Rook Rifle Velocity Test Data

_____________________________Velocity (fps), Sd _________Kirst Conversion______”Rook Rifle”
_____________________________Webley Mk VI 6” Bbl.______Ruger ROA 7-1/2”______H&R 20”
_____________________________Cylinder gap 0.018”_______Cylinder gap 0.004”_____Solid Bbl.

Kynoch K42 Mk VIz 265-grain FMJ___537 fps, 29 Sd___________580 fps, 32 Sd________680 fps, 40 Sd

Handloads Assembled in Hornady .455 Mk II cases (0.77”) with Winchester LP primers

#452374 225-gr. LRN 5.0 Unique____648 fps, 24 Sd____________716 fps, 11 Sd_______814 fps, 14 Sd

MiHec 265-gr. Mk I 4.5 Unique______538 fps, 24 Sd___________679 fps, 32 Sd________788 fps, 11 Sd

Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______622 fps, 6 Sd____________720 fps. 16 Sd________813 fps, 18 Sd

Handload in Starline .45 Schofield Case modified to .455 Mk I (0.87”)

Accurate 45-259H 3.5 Bullseye______546 fps, 16 Sd__________641 fps, 9 Sd_________753 fps, 11 Sd

Column Means By Gun_________Webley 0.018” cyl.gap_____Ruger 0.004” cyl. gap_____20-inch rifle, solid barrel

Pooled Avg. All Samples:___________578 fps________________667 fps______________770 fps

Velocity Gain from Webley__________0____________________+89 fps______________+192 fps



Which remember for the OP that is all cases shorter than the AR.

[Colony]

Thanks to all for this data which makes me a more comfortable...but still always cautious. I notice that Outpost 75 also tested loads with Bullseye. Does either Unique or Bullseye (or other) better fill the space in a 45 AR case?

[Scott.M]

Unique will fill better

[rintinglen]

Bullseye is the better choice for the low pressure loads best suited to the converted Webleys. Unique is slower burning and will bulk more, but it will not burn quite as clean as Bullseye. In my own example I use 3.8 grains of Bullseye, or 4.2 grains of ww 231 with a 230 grain boolit, though I think both charges could go up a smidge as I get quite a bit of blow-by on my cases.
267977267978 Mine is a 1920's vintage post war civilian gun, a MK VI with Birmingham proofs and a 4 inch barrel and a 437,xxx serial number (IIRC).

[smkummer]

As above. I am using unique but I have a colt new service and loading my Dominion MK1 cases with older data using 6 grains and a 454190 bullet unsized and crimped in the last lube groove. Works very well and burns clean enough with the added bonus of a comfortable round to shoot. It’s been suggested to drop that to 5 grains for a break open, if you get blow by, I would switch to bullseye, 700X or 231. My .02 comes from cowboy action shooting and seeing what happens when shooters try to reduce unique - sooty cases and sometimes strange sounding ignition.

[Colony]

Thanks for the above comments using Bulleye and Unique. Rintinglen's bullet is 230 grain and smkummer's is, I believe, 250 grain? Although having zero reloading experience, I do read that the charges go downwards as the bullet weights go up, although the jump here to my 265 grain bullet is not huge. The Dominion Colt cases (I have some, bought with my Webley in the 70's) are just about the same length as 45 AR I will be using, and longer than true MkII. I understand that longer cases are more forgiving with higher loads.
Just received my Lee Webley die set which comes with load data, of course for MkII. But the loads seem very conservative. For a 265 grain bullet they state starting/never exceed loads for Bullseye at 3.3/3.8, and for Unique at 3.8/4.3.

Certainly not questioning your experience, but the moderate increase in bullet weight and the Lee data does not seem to correlate with what works for you. Is Lee being very cautious?

[Outpost75]

Lee is being very cautious, as their loads were not pressure tested. But the 3.5 grain Bullseye charge has been used extensively and is both safe and accurate with 265-grain bullets approximating the service bullet and is a close match for the service velocity. In my experience Unique did not burn completely and gave erratic velocities. TiteGroup or WST can be safely substituted using the same charge weight as Bullseye.

[Colony]

Lee is being very cautious, as their loads were not pressure tested. But the 3.5 grain Bullseye charge has been used extensively and is both safe and accurate with 265-grain bullets approximating the service bullet and is a close match for the service velocity. In my experience Unique did not burn completely and gave erratic velocities. TiteGroup or WST can be safely substituted using the same charge weight as Bullseye.

Is the 3.5 Bullseye for a MkII case or for the 45 AR Webley load?

[Outpost75]

Is the 3.5 Bullseye for a MkII case or for the 45 AR Webley load?

In the .45 AR brass you could increase the load safely to 4 grains, but I consider 3.5 as the starting load and 4 grains as max.

Do not exceed 3.5 grains in the shorter MkII cases for the Webley top breaks.

[Colony]

Thank you very much.

[Tokarev]

I second the observation that Unique is not well suited for smokeless conversions.
It did not burn completely in both 380 long (3.4-3.6 gr) or 442 Webley (4.2 gr), though it did leave fewer flakes in the Webley.

[Scott.M]

I second the observation that Unique is not well suited for smokeless conversions.
It did not burn completely in both 380 long (3.4-3.6 gr) or 442 Webley (4.2 gr), though it did leave fewer flakes in the Webley.



But there is no smokeless conversion needed for the MkVI, since it started life as a smokeless cartridge.

[Drydock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzr9BoPrteQ

[Colony]

But there is no smokeless conversion needed for the MkVI, since it started life as a smokeless cartridge.

The Mk I was fielded in 1890/91 as a black powder cartridge. The Brits changed from black powder to Cordite in the mid- to late 1890's. There was a transition period between MkI and MkII cartridges where Cordite was introduced, still in the Mk I cartridge. This was around the time of introduction of the Webley .455 Mark II Pistol. The interesting thing there (at least for me) is that the briefly produced MkI (Cordite) kind of shows up again in the modern Canadian Dominion Colt/Webley MkI/II cartridge, of which the brass case is +/- the same length as the original MkI, and happily, the 45AR.

[Colony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzr9BoPrteQ

Thanks, it is good and had already looked at it a couple of times!

[Scott.M]

The Mk I was fielded in 1890/91 as a black powder cartridge. The Brits changed from black powder to Cordite in the mid- to late 1890's. There was a transition period between MkI and MkII cartridges where Cordite was introduced, still in the Mk I cartridge. This was around the time of introduction of the Webley .455 Mark II Pistol. The interesting thing there (at least for me) is that the briefly produced MkI (Cordite) kind of shows up again in the modern Canadian Dominion Colt/Webley MkI/II cartridge, of which the brass case is +/- the same length as the original MkI, and happily, the 45AR.



Nice, but this thread began as you asking about the MkVI. No need or worry about smokeless conversion for the MkVI.

[Colony]

Nice, but this thread began as you asking about the MkVI. No need or worry about smokeless conversion for the MkVI.

Agreed, no worries. The MkVI was proofed for smokeless.

[Colony]

In the .45 AR brass you could increase the load safely to 4 grains, but I consider 3.5 as the starting load and 4 grains as max.

Do not exceed 3.5 grains in the shorter MkII cases for the Webley top breaks.

Of all the powders that are not available right now (Bullseye and Unique among them), Winchester 231 seems to be an exception. Any experience with 231 in 45AR for the Webley...and other suitable powders/loads?

[Outpost75]

Of all the powders that are not available right now (Bullseye and Unique among them), Winchester 231 seems to be an exception. Any experience with 231 in 45AR for the Webley...and other suitable powders/loads?

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010)

p279 shows 231 in the .45 Auto Rim with #452374 225-grain LRN No. 2 alloy at OAL 1.265":

start 4.0 grains 231 for 660 fps @ 6,900 cup, max. 5.5 grains 873 fps @ 13,800 cup
(I would not exceed 5 grains in the Webley)

I would not be worried about trying the 4 grain charge with a heavier lead bullet up to 265 grains.

Any pressure-tested .45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP data you come across from a current, reliable industry source, which is below 13,000 cup is fine in your Webley.