HELP! Need Quickload for .38spl 158gr 6gr Herco.

[ddixie884]

Anyone take pity on me and do a Quickload simulation on a 158gr swc over 6.0 and maybe 6.2 of Herco for me. I am practically computer illiterate and couldn't do it even if I had the right hardware. Thanx for lookin......

[Stephen Cohen]

For what its worth given I have never used Herco, 4.5 gr seems to be the max in all the searching I could find. I think thats enough for me to think wrong powder. Regards Stephen

[Ozark mike]

Herco is used as a full speed powder in pistol cases. I looked in my archaic books and found nothin. Id still wait for someone to throw some numbers out there it might be the greatest 38 load since sliced bread who knows thats what this is all about a collection of knowledge that rivals any manual.

[farmerjim]

Modern Reloading #1 Richard Lee has 4.5 grains of Herco as the never exceed load for the 158 grain lead. 15800 psi at 1420 fps.

[rintinglen]

Don't go there.
6.2 grains exceeds every bit of data for the 38 special that I have that has been published since the 70's. It is the starting load for the .357 Magnum with several cast bullets in Lyman's 46th edition. Only one manual that I have lists 6.0 grains for the 38.. Speer Number 10 shows that as the Max +P load for their 158 grain JHP. They do not list Herco for any 38 Special Loads in the Number 14. 5.4 grain is the max that I have used, but I no longer use Herco as a pistol powder because it does not meter well.

[dragon813gt]

For what it’s worth I don’t trust QL predictions w/ straight wall cases. But I’m sick and not working so here you go. This is out of a 16” barrel.

6.0 - 21,164 PSI - WELL OVER MAX
6.2 - 22,649 PSI - WELL OVER MAX

If you trust the prediction 5.6 grains puts you at 18,379 PSI which is just below PMAX for +P. I take no responsibility for any of this data. Just typing out what QL predicted.

[OS OK]

"One old'Texican helping another..."

I am a neophyte at QL & just got this program and this laptop to run it on & am an ole'dinasaur like you...

'DON'T TRUST ANYTHING I POST HERE! ... JUST DON'T DO IT OK?'
...this is just a 'coarse' look at that load, not nearly configured for your intent, just will give you an idea of how a bad a choice that would be.

charlie

.38 Special

https://i.imgur.com/FhIm2L1.jpg

PS . . . . I noticed that your running two threads on this question and in the other thread you mentioned '+P'...if this is the case, literally, the case & all the other parameters described below match, you'd be 'just squeaking by'.
It's not for a timid ole'Fart like me! But...I think I see why this question came up? Somebody told'Ya you could do it.


.38 Special +P

https://i.imgur.com/xHUH4ID.jpg

Seems as though a .38 Special '+P' case would have less water capacity in grains...I would be cautious about that right off the bat and measure your cases if you intend to follow through with this!

[JAC43]

2 things you really want to make sure of while using QL is your actual measured case capacity and seating depth. The Lee C358 bullet shown in the pic above is actually something like .400" from the base to the crimp groove. If you seat to the crimp groove, now you're looking at 25k PSI instead of 18.5k PSI with the same 6.2 gr charge!

[3leggedturtle]

The 3 Alliant manuals I checked showed that was/is a +P for 110gr HP in .38

[rking22]

Just an academic question, but this seems to be in the realm of the 38-44 Loads for the pre357 N frame smiths. Is that an accurate assumption?

[farmbif]

ive got some loaded with 6gr Herco , light loads in a 357 mag but they dont get put in a 38spl. I even wrote on ammo box +p+

[ddixie884]

First of all, I appreciate all of your help and taking time to run these simulations. First I want to point out that SAAMI raised the +P pressure for .38spl back to 20K from 18.5K because the ammo companies couldn't make any ammo to sell. Second I would point out that Speer #8 lists 6.5gr under 158gr swc at 1075 fps and 6gr under 160gr jsp for 1017 fps. They also list 11gr 2400 under both of these bullets. I use 11gr 2400 under 158gr swc in my .38spl K-frames and LCRX. Speer #11 lists 5.1 under their swaged swc but still lists 6gr under their 158gr jsp. They lowered the powder charges for all of their swaged lead bullets in #11. I think this was for leading from the soft bullets.
I have noticed that all later manuals seem to list practically the same charges for Unique as for Herco. I think Herco is an old powder that they don't support any more as they want to sell more of their new powders. Meanwhile I have lots of Herco and I am interested in exploring it's possibilities. Meanwhile CIP lists 23.2K as max. In the Finn version of the Vihtavuori manual their powders are loaded to 22.5K. I would be content with loads that I work up if I can keep them to less than 22K which is what I think Buffalo Bore uses as a max for their .38spl +Ps. I am not recommending these loads to anyone or trying to boost their use. I'm just doing a little experimenting and asking questions of my friends. I want to say again thanks for the info and for running these simulations for me. Star-Line says their +P cases are the same as their regular .38spl cases. The marking is for identification only.

[1006]

268151

From some Alliant Factory 38special +P data.

Herco
4.7 max
965fps/5.6 inch barrel
17,300 psi

[DougGuy]

First of all, I appreciate all of your help and taking time to run these simulations. First I want to point out that SAAMI raised the +P pressure for .38spl back to 20K from 18.5K because the ammo companies couldn't make any ammo to sell. Second I would point out that Speer #8 lists 6.5gr under 158gr swc at 1075 fps and 6gr under 160gr jsp for 1017 fps. They also list 11gr 2400 under both of these bullets. I use 11gr 2400 under 158gr swc in my .38spl K-frames and LCRX. Speer #11 lists 5.1 under their swaged swc but still lists 6gr under their 158gr jsp. They lowered the powder charges for all of their swaged lead bullets in #11. I think this was for leading from the soft bullets.
I have noticed that all later manuals seem to list practically the same charges for Unique as for Herco. I think Herco is an old powder that they don't support any more as they want to sell more of their new powders. Meanwhile I have lots of Herco and I am interested in exploring it's possibilities. Meanwhile CIP lists 23.2K as max. In the finn version of their manual their powders are loaded to 22.5K. I would be content with loads that I work up if I can keep them to less than 22K which is what I think Buffalo Bore uses as a max for their .38spl +Ps. I am not recommending these loads to anyone or trying to boost their use. I'm just doing a little experimenting and asking questions of my friends. I want to say again thanks for the info and for running these simulations for me. Star-Line says their +P cases are the same as their regular .38spl cases.

You list off 2 bullets that are comparable in weight, BUT... My question is WHERE are the bottom of these sitting in the case when assembled? A 158gr JHP crimped in the crimp groove sits at the same place in the case than a 158gr LSWC? No change in case volume? Data can be interchanged safely. Normally you would have slightly less pressure with a lead boolit than with a j-word.

[ddixie884]

Yes I have a basic understanding of how ballistics work although I am far from an expert at loading or determining pressure. I will say again I am just interested in this project because I have lots of Herco and I like that since it is a good bit slower and should fill a case better it should give more consistent results. It is slower than Unique, Universal, Unequal, Power Pistol and Vihta Vuori N330. one powder burn rate chart I saw on-line shows it as slower than HS-6 and VV N340. I don't know anything of the Lee bullet used in the simulation but the bullet I most often use is the standard machine cast swcbb sold commercially and probably cast from hard ball alloy. I really wish I had more understanding of the quick load program but as long as the program shows +P as 18.5K it will say dangerous load for anything over that.

[rintinglen]

If you call them, Speer specifically states do not use the data in any of their manuals prior to Number 11. Number 8 in particular, is repudiated as a reloading source.

[cowboy4evr]

I have used the starting load data in Speer #8 for yrs with complete satisfaction . Interestingly enough , many of the loads in #8 are equal to what is listed today and some are even less than what's listed today . Check it out for yourself , Regards Paul

[Outpost75]

I for one would like to know what revolver the OP is shooting these in?

It makes a HUGE difference in terms of safety margin whether he is using a New Model Ruger, GP100, Security Six or S&W L- or N-frame .38 Special and quite another if a S&W J-frame, K-frame or any Colt other than an Official Police, Python or New Service.

My own experience in experimenting with Herco in the .38 Special is that it does not burn completely at safe pressures, and unless you are diligent about keeping the muzzle elevated with you eject the brass, it only takes a particle or two of unburned powder deposited under the extractor to bind up the gun. NOT satisfactory.

Herco is a good powder for .357 snubbies with 125-140-grian bullets.

[rking22]

For clarity, just because some of the data has been good dosent mean it’s ALL valid! When Speer says not to use it, I would believe them.


Problem is that SOME of the data is hot, most is good. Problem is having enough other sources to separate the two. I have used #8 for years, but after seeing a couple loads that seemed out of the normal range I started doing more cross checking. Those two Speer books contain SOME eronious data, better to use data from newer sources with modern pressure data.
Just because data is not shown only means they saw no commercial value to testing those combos, in MOST cases. There are cases where certain powders do not behave as expected from just burn rate, 296 being a good example. Best to be cautious, have to admit I like 20-28 in some cast rifle loads. Zero data published in that realm. Results are on me, good or NOT good.

[JoeJames]

I for one would like to know what revolver the OP is shooting these in?

It makes a HUGE difference in terms of safety margin whether he is using a New Model Ruger, GP100, Security Six or S&W L- or N-frame .38 Special and quite another if a S&W J-frame, K-frame or any Colt other than an Official Police, Python or New Service.

My own experience in experimenting with Herco in the .38 Special is that it does not burn completely at safe pressures, and unless you are diligent about keeping the muzzle elevated with you eject the brass, it only takes a particle or two of unburned powder deposited under the extractor to bind up the gun. NOT satisfactory.

Herco is a good powder for .357 snubbies with 125-140-grian bullets.Agreed, and what if he's shooting an old M&P Hand Ejector K frame made about 1913 or so?

[ddixie884]

15-3 S&W and LCRX .38spl +P right on the side of the barrel. If in doubt I fire the first 5 for effect from a SP101 3". If they act normal in the trial I then try them through the .38s. Hornady #II shows 6.1gr Unique under 158gr lead and 5.9gr under 158gr JHP. Speer #11 shows 5.5gr Unique and 6.0gr Herco under 158gr JHP.
I don't know about quick load but it looks like in the attachment that we are looking at 18.5K for these loads. If that is true I do not see a problem.........

[ddixie884]

Just an academic question, but this seems to be in the realm of the 38-44 Loads for the pre357 N frame smiths. Is that an accurate assumption?

Yes, it is close to factory .38-44 which Colt and S&W said could be fired in the K-frame and the Police Positive. This ammo was loaded to from 1060fps to about 1100fps that was from a closed breech test barrel of probably 6" to 7.5" in length. Keith and others later loaded it to much higher velocities and the .357 Magnum was born.......

[Kosh75287]

What are you planning to shoot this load in? Is it a steel-frame .357? You'd be safe to do that.
DO NOT shoot it in any older, worn, nor aluminum frame .38s. In fact, keep it out of .38s, completely.

[ddixie884]

What are you planning to shoot this load in? Is it a steel-frame .357? You'd be safe to do that.
DO NOT shoot it in any older, worn, nor aluminum frame .38s. In fact, keep it out of .38s, completely.

I have used 20rnds each of 5.4, 5.6, 5.8 and 6gr in my 15-3 S&W and an LCRX in .38+P caliber. Strong but not brutal. Primers round and normal and easy extraction with a touch of thumb pressure. I didn't put a really firm crimp on these and lube and carbon formed a gooey residue on the case mouth which I'm trying to clean up.

[35remington]

As mentioned elsewhere, anything in excess of 5.5 grains is likely getting in the +P+ territory.

[35remington]

I would be hesitant to fire +P+ in an aluminum frame LCRx....or any gun with an upper limit of +P. There is a reason 357s have steel frames and extra heat treating. There is also a reason that the manuals that come with the guns state not to use +P+ and I know of no manufacturer that advises their guns are safe to use it.

+P+ 38 has always carried the warning to shoot only in 357s.

[JoeJames]

I would be hesitant to fire +P+ in an aluminum frame LCRx....or any gun with an upper limit of +P. There is a reason 357s have steel frames and extra heat treating. There is also a reason that the manuals that come with the guns state not to use +P+ and I know of no manufacturer that advises their guns are safe to use it.

+P+ 38 has always carried the warning to shoot only in 357s.Huh, I have never bought any +P+ (1) because I like mild loads, and (2) because I reload anyhow. But I did not know about the above warning. Interesting.

[35remington]

https://revolverguy.com/ammo-evolution-38-special-treasury-load/

Agency experience with +P+

Bottom line is it was hot stuff, and a bad idea to shoot in 38 revolvers common with the period. I would shoot +P+ in a steel framed Ruger product. Aluminum frames and +P rated Smith 38 frames....no.

If you want to take my previous comment as actually meaning you are ill advised using +P+ in a +P rated 38 revolver, and best advised to shoot them only in 357 revolvers, that is how to view it. The ammo did not say “for 357 revolvers only” on the box or anything like that.

So take that as the advice it is rather than looking for a warning printed somewhere.

[ddixie884]

268151

From some Alliant Factory 38special +P data.

Herco
4.7 max
965fps/5.6 inch barrel
17,300 psi

I wonder how many grains it would take to get 19,500 psi.