Chinese f35 copy

[oldred]

First off this is purely a technical question and NOT a political question so please let's not make it one.

Apparently (more like obviously) according to the news today the Chinese are stealing technical data from the F35 project so this brings me to a question that has been bugging me for years. Why can't this data be shared between necessary parties/facilities within a closed system similar to but COMPLETELY different and cut off from the World Wide network instead of being world wide accessible and protected only by fallible firewalls and passcodes? If hackers/bad actors could not physically access the system then there could be no hacking to protect from? Am I totally off-base here?

Again PLEASE no politics

[Der Gebirgsjager]

How can this not be political? The Chinese Govt. and the PLA infiltrate agents into our defense industries (and most other industries as well) and steal technological secrets which they pass to Communist China. Watch the news...every now and then they catch one and imprison or deport him. About half the time they are native born Americans that were "recruited". Often someone who came here as a foreign student and assimilated into the economy. If these moles are undetected and considered good employees they would have access to your proposed closed system, and get the information anyway. Also, they access technological information from weapon systems we have given to dubious allies as foreign aid. Since the Chinese believe that they are destined to dominate the world, and that the U.S. is in their way, how can it not be political?

[jdfoxinc]

The world wide web started as a military only network, expanded to universities, then downhill to porn commercials etc......

[dtknowles]

First off this is purely a technical question and NOT a political question so please let's not make it one.

Apparently (more like obviously) according to the news today the Chinese are stealing technical data from the F35 project so this brings me to a question that has been bugging me for years. Why can't this data be shared between necessary parties/facilities within a closed system similar to but COMPLETELY different and cut off from the World Wide network instead of being world wide accessible and protected only by fallible firewalls and passcodes? If hackers/bad actors could not physically access the system then there could be no hacking to protect from? Am I totally off-base here?

Again PLEASE no politics

Top Secret data under proper controls is not accessible via the internet.

[Winger Ed.]

This sort of theft is done directly by people with access to it on secure systems, or working in & on the projects themselves.

[Thunder Stick]

It’s plain old spying. They got the F35 information the same way the Soviets got the atom bomb secrets in the 1940’s.

267728

[mrbigsteel]

The systems are isolated, but spies can bridge the "air gap" with a thumb drive.

[bakerjw]

Network security needs to be constantly analyzed and maintained. As an IT person, I have contracted in to Caterpillar for a large part of my adult life. My contractor days are long behind me (I hope) but I still keep in touch with my friends back in Illinois. When I was last doing server support, I had unfettered access to a lot of sensitive material.
In chatting with a friend a year or so back, they told me about a Chinese national working on one of their facilities on the west coast. They were either given or gained access to a lot of sensitive R&D information, specifications, drawings,etc... Gigabytes of data was sent back to China.
These pieces of excrement get into our companies and steal everything that they can get their hands on. A friend, who leans a bit to the liberal side, spent several months in China early in 2019. He told me that they have no ethics when it comes to stealing IP, drawings, etc... It is part of their culture.

China is our #1 enemy on the world stage. Biden and Co. are #1 on shore because their administration will cozy up to them for personal gain.

[dtknowles]

The systems are isolated, but spies can bridge the "air gap" with a thumb drive.

Thumb drive are forbidden. I tried to bring one onto a "not" top secret facility and they took it and smashed it with a hammer. Bad stuff comes in on unsecured media and drives and good stuff goes out.

Tim

[monadnock#5]

Sometimes it's done on purpose. You remember how the Bush 43 administration used a back door in the Iranian computer system to over speed their centrifuges. Ain't no honor amongst thieves or national governments.

[DocSavage]

In this day and age computer systems no matter how good the programing,security measures there's all ways someone capable of getting access. With people simple answer money,sex or just general disdain for one's country and it's ideals.

[oldred]

How can this not be political?

EASY:roll:, just stay with the tech aspect and don't talk about Chinese snooping since the question is about ANYONE snooping, not just China!

[oldred]

Ok I had just "assumed" that the access was from hacking using the World Web and not physically stolen like in the old days of spies and pen cameras. Apparently thumb drives and other storage devices have replaced pen cameras, etc to transfer this data onsite and carry it out in their pockets. That makes sense and kind of clears it up, I just got upset every time I saw something like the f35 theft because I was mistakenly assuming it was from simple hacking and not onsite spying.

[dragon813gt]

Any computer that is connected to a network, even a local one, is a security vulnerability. And since computers are everywhere it compounds things a lot. It’s why thumb drives are banned a lot of places. Only takes a few seconds to pop one in, inject some code and now the wrong people have access to the network. That’s really dumbed down but not far from reality.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Apparently (more like obviously) according to the news today the Chinese are stealing technical data from the F35 project

Oh, sorry....somehow I got the idea this was about the Chinese......

[bakerjw]

Sometimes it's done on purpose. You remember how the Bush 43 administration used a back door in the Iranian computer system to over speed their centrifuges. Ain't no honor amongst thieves or national governments.

Not to go off topic, but I don't believe that the "W" administration was involved in it. Mossad, definitely. The hardware in question was specifically targeted by the virus that was dispersed by seeding areas in Iran with infected thumb drives. I only know it because it was my employers products that were effected and we scrambled like crazy patching every system in our R&D facility as well as implementing very stringent controls on all removable media.

[BamaNapper]

I think we can safely say that every country wants info from every other country without having their own info kept secret. It's not political so much as it's an advantage. And it's not just between countries either. The fried chicken place on the corner wants to get their mitts on the KFC recipe. The federal govt and contractors to them have significant hurdles to clear before any computer or computer system can maintain classified or sensitive information. But regardless of the protocols and protections in place, there are always vulnerabilities. As mentioned above, the people who work on the computer systems are probably the greatest threat. There are a fair number of case studies out there where an employee has been used to pull data from classified systems, either for money or a misguided sense of loyalty to a cause. I recall reading a scenario once where Company A provided a scholarship for someone, then found a way to get them hired by Company B, then later asked them for info on a Company B product. It's cheaper than doing the research. It's called Insider Threat, and it's a constant focus for everyone involved in IT security.

[monadnock#5]

Not to go off topic, but I don't believe that the "W" administration was involved in it. Mossad, definitely. The hardware in question was specifically targeted by the virus that was dispersed by seeding areas in Iran with infected thumb drives. I only know it because it was my employers products that were effected and we scrambled like crazy patching every system in our R&D facility as well as implementing very stringent controls on all removable media.

I hate, hate, hate to admit it, but sometimes I watch the cable channel VICE. I don't remember the name of the show, but it was a story on "zero days", back doors built into computer systems, regardless of the level of sophistication. According to the deep throat interviewed, there were as many high level meetings and lawyers involved in the Iranian centrifuge destruction as were involved in the assassination of Yamamoto. Where the truth leaves off and the disinformation begins is way beyond me though.

[MUSTANG]

SIPRNET:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRNet

JWICS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Worldwide_Intelligence_Communications_System

[William Yanda]

Seems like someone would set up an ultra secret file that would have anyone who stole it chasing down a rabbit hole.
A file that carried a worm like the one that made the Iranians centrifuges run wild.
But then I have a devious mind.

[nicholst55]

The systems are isolated, but spies can bridge the "air gap" with a thumb drive.

I have to disagree. I work for Department of the Army, and our non-classified network (and certainly our classified network) will not allow the use of ANY external media. No CDs, thumb drives, or anything. Our computers still have USB ports, but even plugging your phone into one to charge it will set off alarms. Offices that routinely handle classified information do now allow any PEDs inside the office (Personal Electronic Devices). That includes cell phones, smart watches, etc.

[BamaNapper]

I have to disagree. I work for Department of the Army, and our non-classified network (and certainly our classified network) will not allow the use of ANY external media.

I also work in a classified environment. And in the course of maintaining the system I have realized methods and times where I could walk out with a copy of every file from classified media and not leave so much as an entry in the security audits that I was on the system. As I mentioned earlier, insider threats are always going to be vulnerabilities. For a typical user the USB, network communications and removable media can be disabled. A "spy" walking into a secured system with a thumb drive will probably fail. But to the techs maintaining the systems these measures don't register as even an inconvenience.

[fcvan]

40 years ago, I worked for a military defense contractor while going to school at night. There were no computers, but what we were doing was pretty technical. Lucky for the United States of America, most of my coworkers were too stupid to know they were working for a government contractor on highly sensitive stuff, they just thought they were making electronic parts.

Some of these people had been there for 10 years, and just thought they were making stuff. When they found out what it actually was we were doing for the Air Force, some of those tree huggers threatened to quit because they didn’t wanna have anything to do with weapon parts. They chickened out.

All technology is subject to theft, I never heard of any of our technology getting out. Now you can probably buy the crap at Walmart, come to think of it, you actually can.

[monadnock#5]

My former employer, a subcontractor heavily invested in the military/industrial complex, did something strange 5 or so years ago. They have a guest WiFi set up for visitors that's password protected. It was made known to everyone on the floor by mid level managers and their sycophants that the guest WiFi was wide open and anyone could join in! The password listed on the company website. This went on for about a year until it was announced that so much band width had been taken up that the guests couldn't get in anymore, and that anyone caught on the guest WiFi was subject to immediate dismissal.

Now call me paranoid if you like, but I think anyone who accessed the system had a cookie put in their phone. The kind Amazon uses to deliver ads for products you've searched for on a competitors website.

[redhawk0]

I frequently get into the NSA/DoD and believe me...they take media seriously. No cellphones, no laptops, no cameras, no USB devices of ANY kind, no media (CD/DVD) in unless cleared by IT and a higher up and it must be scanned It NEVER goes out. Nothing with memory can go in...no MP3 players, and no tape players. If I have to change a computer or its hard drive/memory then the defective stays on-site....once deemed clean it goes to a crusher....this includes printers. They pay for a lot of components that most of my customer's just allow us to remove/throw away. It's the cost of security in their eyes.

It wouldn't be easy for an outsider to remove Secret/Top Secret information...but an insider....they are trusted to a point. If you can fool a polygraph test...you likely could get info out. I'm guessing that the information was by a "trusted" employee/contractor.

redhawk

[MUSTANG]

Of course; when our elected officials JUST GIVE IT AWAY - where is the accountability. As an example; Clinton gave away missile technology to China, supposedly to allow them to launch Satellites (Of course any country that can launch a Satellite - can also launch a nuclear missile that can hit anywhere in the world). Also he gave away "Super Computers" to the Chinese; and we know they have done nothing malicious with that.


A good synapsis article on JUST WHAT CLINTON did to the US can be found at:

https://capitalresearch.org/article/flashback-bill-clinton-gave-china-missile-technology/

[gwpercle]

Two University professors in Louisiana were caught sending research data to the Chinese .
Both quit their University jobs and research work , were hired by some private Companies and the news media played it all down as they were innocent and simply left the Universities for the private sector ... and swept the stories under the rug .... Bull ! They had been stealing research for years and sending it to China ... and that was in only two Louisiana Universities that got looked at ...what about all the universities in the country ...how much info gets stolen !
The Chinese are not our friends and Biden is in bed with them ... The media lies to us .
Why can't they wake up and see what China is doing ?
Gary

[Mr_Sheesh]

It's pretty well known that industrial espionage folks have taken a slingshot or the like & flung thumb drives with a back door payload installed on them, into competitors' parking lots and fenced secure areas - the hope being that an innocent person plugs the drive in to test it, at work, thus installing the espionage payload inside the company's network. Cheap and from what I hear it's been quite effective in some cases. Nasty IMO though...

[wv109323]

It is my understanding that there are no patents in China. If whatever "betters country or mankind" there are no rules. What we call espinioge (sp.)they call sharing. Lying, cheating and lying is normal and expected if it helps country. Signed contracts are worthless in their eyes.

[10x]

Top Secret data under proper controls is not accessible via the internet.


This sort of theft is done directly by people with access to it on secure systems, or working in & on the projects themselves.

There are folks in the system who will sell their mothers for money, lifestyle, or worst of all political ideology.
The systems are secure, all it takes is one user with access who is not secure.

[popper]

Gov. contracts to universities is the biggest problem. When I was doing classified stuff, put in a request, doc was provided and you sat at a desk with it until done, the back to lockup. Computers in another safe room. Nothing classified on them.

[EDG]

I have worked for both government and civilian companies that had "secret" information.
In my experience the civilian companies maintained a lot better control of secret information compared to the government contractors following government guidelines.

For instance the civilian companies did not allow distribution of any document with trade secrets.

The government contractors would let a person with a clearance check out a classified document. It would have been easy to take the document to an unsecured copier and copy it.

[M-Tecs]

I can't address how government contractors get by with this. Within actual government agencies you have to have a equal or higher security clearance and most importantly an need to know. Of course inside threats will always find a way to circumvent the system given sufficient motivation.

[Four-Sixty]

Do you notice how the companies that loose this data are not fined, or severely punished?

Defense contractors just get to throw up their hands after a loss and then sell the Government the next generation of product to keep one step ahead of the 'enemy'. We also have allies who steal and underhandedly sell info for a profit. (Check out unlimited hangout.com for an example)

Rest assured, it'll never change. We're just sheep to be fleeced.

[popper]

It's worse. World patent org superceeds US patents so anybody can usurp a US patent, get world patent. Patent lawyers told us NOT to patent anything, just keep as trade secret. East Asia companies would just copy anything - you had to be careful who you hired there as QC was usually bypassed or bought off. See the 'mercedes' with the upside down star? Chinese factory across the street makes them. Asian attitude is they will sell anything and steal to get whatever it takes. It is their culture. Always has been.

[Big Tom]

They infiltrate our companies and government - I know of one incident at GE, where somebody worked his way up in the company over 5+ years until he had access to real intellectual property. He shared that regularly with his people in China, but got caught because IT is becoming so sophisticated, that there are means of monitoring network traffic to the point that Big Brother is becoming a laughable good night story.
Also, China is actively and openly hiring people with knowledge of intellectual property - they expect the chosen ones to come to China, work there for xx years and as a reward get a few Million Dollars and a nice salary while "providing results"...