350 Legend and H110 Reloading Help

[ThermalWedgie]

Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum. I've been a long time viewer, and finally decided to make an account.

I recently built an AR in 350 legend with the express goal of using cast lead projectiles. My upper is a Bear Creek Arsenal with a 16" 1:16 twist barrel and carbine length gas system. I'm actually quite impressed with the quality of this upper, all machining and finishing is very clean when considering the price.

I first got a Lee 358-200-RF mold with generally poor results, the projectile is just too short for semi-auto function and reliable chambering in my rifle. I then got an NOE 357-189-RF mold that is functioning much better. I'm using WW alloy that I've enriched with ~0.5% copper (using copper sulfate). Bullets are powder coated, NOT gas checked, and weigh at 195 grains. They are sized to 0.357 and seated to 2.17". Cases are Starline and trimmed to 1.705".

Using 22.0 grains of H110, I'm getting reliable cycling and roughly 1.5" groups at 100 yards. My one and only issue is that I'm getting an occasional pressure sign on 1 out of every 5 casings. On these casings, I'm mostly seeing slight ejector shearing marks. Even less often, I'm seeing occasional mild primer flattening and extractor marks on my head stamps. I'm not certain if this is due to my rifle being overgassed, or if these are actual pressure signs. I've noticed an occasional thin ring of shaved lead left over in my throat, which may be creating excessive headspace on the subsequent round. Using Gordon's reloading tool, I should be running 40-45k psi.

This particular cartridge is a new concept to me, and I'm not entirely certain of how I should interpret these results. H110 is a new powder for me, and with almost no load data available, I'm curious if this may be a result of too low of a charge. I unfortunately don't have access to a chronograph right now.

If anyone may have some input or advice, I'd love to hear it!

[44Blam]

H110 is similar to W296 and AA11fs... I had some occasional pressure signs (but everything seemed fine). But yesterday I got the wakeup pressure sign:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?408436-350-Legend-and-AA11FS-a-story-of-popped-primers

[ThermalWedgie]

H110 is similar to W296 and AA11fs... I had some occasional pressure signs (but everything seemed fine). But yesterday I got the wakeup pressure sign:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?408436-350-Legend-and-AA11FS-a-story-of-popped-primers

I actually had a similar result happen a few times with my loads using the Lee 358-200-RF mold. Primers fell right out upon extraction. In curious if case fill may have been the cause.

I tried calculating my case volume and fill with my current NOE bullet load. I used the SAAMI volume of 2.365cc to try and calculate my percent fill. With 22 grains of h110, I should be at roughly 88% of available volume filled. Next chance I get, I'll go ahead and measure the volume of my Starline brass.

I'm wondering if bumping that up to 95% (~23.5 grains H110) would be beneficial. GRT says I should be running about 50k psi with that load.

[mehavey]

With thinnest case floor/web thickness, Starline is the most vulnerable to pressure/primer pocket anomalies -- Winchester the least vulnerable.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6767327&postcount=203

I'll counsel (in my experience) that getting suffcient H110/W296 into the 350L case to get above 90% will be problematic.

Do this:
1) Measure empty case case depth (caliper depth probe)
2) Fill and measure distance-to-powder (ditto)
3) Measure shank depth on bullet when/where you seat it

Fill Fraction ~ (1-2)/(1-3)



Break, Break; Try both
- Norma-200, and
- Vihtavuori N110 (totally different fron H110, hi-volume factor, not overly-sensitive to fill%, and well behaved)

[cwlongshot]

I dont have the LEE bullet, But I do have a Lyman 358315 and a RCBS 210 FN & MP 359-220. All near identical profiles. The 315 & 220 smaller dia in throats if ya PC.

RL7 is showing respectable accuracy and velocity.

CW

[ThermalWedgie]

With thinnest case floor/web thickness, Starline is the most vulnerable to pressure/primer pocket anomalies -- Winchester the least vulnerable.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6767327&postcount=203

I'll counsel (in my experience) that getting suffcient H110/W296 into the 350L case to get above 90% will be problematic.

Do this:
1) Measure empty case case depth (caliper depth probe)
2) Fill and measure distance-to-powder (ditto)
3) Measure shank depth on bullet when/where you seat it

Fill Fraction ~ (1-2)/(1-3)



Break, Break; Try both
- Norma-200, and
- Vihtavuori N110 (totally different fron H110, hi-volume factor, not overly-sensitive to fill%, and well behaved)

I've unfortunately had a very poor experience with the 350 legend Winchester brass that I initially purchased, and I'm now leary of purchasing it again. In the lots that I purchased, I had a high percentage (15%+) of defective casings. Many of them had horribly off-center flash holes, a strange ring at the base of the case head, and wildly varying case lengths. I was getting fairly frequent excessive head expansion, enough to appear like a belted case. I'm currently waiting on Winchester to respond to me, it's unacceptable for the price of this brass.

267711267712

The Starline brass that I later purchased seems to be of much higher quality. All casings have clean and centered flash holes, as well as consistent case lengths.

Unfortunately, the only powder I have available for the foreseeable future is H110. I'm going to see if I can get a higher percentage case fill safely, and will report back if this results in improvement. Further, I believe an adjustable gas block is in order.

[mehavey]

You can trim Length.
You can discard off-center flash holes.
You can't fix web floor thickness.
-- Forewarned --

This was a totally normal, calibrated, pressure/velocity load.
Until it wasn't.

https://i.postimg.cc/cHTYyGMC/350-Legend-H110-Excursion-sm.jpg
In this instance, I credit the [much] greater WIN Brass case floor/web-thickness from preventing even greater ..."problems"

I also suggest "getting more volume of H110 into the case" is not an option.

[popper]

^^ your left pic shows ripped rim also. Definitely high pressure and early extraction ( over gassed for THAT load). I didn't have trouble with H110 in BO but W296 is a problem. Yes, supposed to be same powder. Your ejector dimple is from over-pressure flow but surprised it didn't 'swipe'. Yea, not fun when primer get stuck in the gas key/bolt area either.

[tomme boy]

If you can not get the Lee 200gr bullet to feed then you have a gun problem. Mehavey is right about the Starline brass. He is not the only one that has run into the Starline base problem.

You seat the Lee bullet to the last full diameter of the bullet so the unsupported nose is sticking out of the case. I have the Lee and the Mihec version of the RCBS original design. Both feed perfect. H110 has been giving a few people some problems of late. I have got away from it and LILgun

[mehavey]

....surprised it didn't 'swipe'.You DID notice that rather notable lack of an "S" in WINCHESTER ?
:bigsmyl2:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

[Texas by God]

My unsolicited opinion is that the H110/W296 is not the problem- crappy brass syndrome is. It’s been said before- Winchester should have based it on 5.56 brass to begin with. I see and read about problems that seem to be unique to the “Legend”; but I also read about good range reports as far as accuracy goes. But the sub-par condition of brand new Winchester brass is a very common story it seems. H110/W296 are a famous powder for full charge magnum handgun cartridges as well as .30 Carbine and supersonic .300 Blackout. I hope you get it worked out.

[mehavey]

Gentlemen,

With the exception of Starline's web/floor, I've not had problems. In 400 new/bagged Win cases, I've had no rejects
Use of H110/W296 is a problem w/ a case length/volume/bullet combo in which you reach MAX pressure substantially before 90% Fill.



(Lil'Gun was fun though)
https://i.postimg.cc/KvGtF21y/350-LEGEND-Lil-Gun-22gr-Ovr-Ld.jpg
postscript: This was a Starline case.
(Did I mention I was now using WIN brass)
:kidding:

[tomme boy]

Only problem with Win brass I have had was my own fault. I over reamed the crimped primer pockets so they acted like an expanded case head. Last 2 bags I bought the brass was absolutely perfect.

They had problems at first with over crimping and long brass. That seems to have been worked out.

[44Blam]

My unsolicited opinion is that the H110/W296 is not the problem- crappy brass syndrome is. It’s been said before- Winchester should have based it on 5.56 brass to begin with. I see and read about problems that seem to be unique to the “Legend”; but I also read about good range reports as far as accuracy goes. But the sub-par condition of brand new Winchester brass is a very common story it seems. H110/W296 are a famous powder for full charge magnum handgun cartridges as well as .30 Carbine and supersonic .300 Blackout. I hope you get it worked out.

Y'all can load W296/H110/AA11FS in 350 Legend if you want, but I am out. I'll save that for my 44 magnum.

I've always gone with powders that tend to fill the cases a little more full and were a bit slower. The pressure spikes with what I thought was a very stable load in 350 legend are problematic.

[Ozark mike]

The only time i had primer pockets loosen up was in 45-70 shoulder breakers needless to say i havent made that mistake again:shock:

[cwlongshot]

While I have and continue to see CASE length inconsistencies. Its about the only "problem" I see. But its really NOT a PROBLEM at all as I wont shoot factory ammo.
Last night I got a new mold and cast up just A few to "see". Its a Saeco #352. While I didn't buy specific for the legend Its a good fit and with a proper alloy could be a candidate. (Hunting bullet)
Anyhow, I grabbed the case where the primer fell out. The case head had .0015 expansion. There was no "ring". Case head expansion will tell ya about what that case underwent. But depending upon your chamber determines just how much that will expand. The length is not a big change. Meaning at operating pressure (and actually ALLOT HIGHER then designed) Its not going to "flow" UNLESS YOUR chamber has issues OR YOU cut brass excessively short. Then sure it will and you can actually CREATE your own issues. The max case lengths 1.710. Much shorter then 1.700 will get ya near that condition. BUT thats all assuming you have proper chamber & Head Space. Excessive HS can also cause cases to grow. As we all should know they "grow" just above the web where that case excessively thins to create case walls. Causing the ring. But that abrupt step... Id like to see a chamber case from that chamber as I suspect ya might find same.

I had a few cases with fairly deep (to my standards) ejector marks. Only a few cause I stopped shooting as soon as I saw. NONE of these cases show a ring and NONE expanded past .0015 at the base. (They measured .392/.3925. My Resized cases are .391 from My LEE die set)

Also the ejected primer case WAS a marked case. Meaning when I seat a primer and notice it to be a lil "loose" compared to others. Ill mark the case head and toss it NEXT TIME It comes up to be loaded. SO, I based on case head, and my mark. That ejected primer was not at all a dangerous loading. BUT the ejector/extractor marks are "proud" enough to allow the case to "rock" On a piece of glass. So altho I didnt measure Im guessing .001 or less protrusion. Actually quite substantial and dangerous. That load is properly marked in my logs. That one will be dropped a full 2 g and the other will be dropped 1 g & re shot. BOTH of these where 296 a d BOTH with a resized 180g jacketed projo. Just different seating depths.

Back to cases, I have only Winchester. I have about 7/800 cases. I have seen crimped pockets which I made up a proper Stem for my Dillion 600 and swaged them. No off center Flash Holes have been noticed and I would notice decaping.

Ill pick up some Starline cases when I need more cases, and I will see what I see there. But so far these Winchester cases after initial trim have been fine and have NOT needed trimming again.

CW

[ThermalWedgie]

I should be more specific, my loads using the 200gr Lee bullets fed 100% of the time. My real problem was the bullet being mangled on its trip into the chamber. This happened regardless of what I did with magazine geometry (I've been modifying Pmags). It may just be my barrel extension (300 blackout feed ramps) and my tight chamber.

[lar45]

I'm a little late to the discussion, sorry.
As far as H110/296 goes, Would it be worth trying 4227? 4227 has a similar burn rate, maybe slightly slower, but it is bulkier so you'll get more case fill.
Just some thoughts, I do not have a 350.

[tomme boy]

Run a harder alloy and powder coat.

[ThermalWedgie]

I have some newer loads worked up using the same casings and NOE bullets, and are seated to the same depth. I originally worked up starting at 21 grains of h110, and decided to stop at 22 grains. This time, I made loads at 20 and 20.5 grains of H110, with the hopes that this may show some improvement. I'm aware this contradicts the idea of the relationship between case volume/pressure inconsistencies, but I'm not entirely convinced that this is the issue. I'll again closely monitor my casings for signs of pressure, and I have a large enough sample size that I should see abnormalities if they are going to occur.

One thing I forgot to previously mention, my bore is 0.354 inches in diameter. I'm curious if this 0.003" discrepancy between projectile and bore diameter is related to pressure signs, especially with my hardened bullets.

Hopefully I'll be able to get out and run them this week, and I'll report back with any results.

[ThermalWedgie]

Run a harder alloy and powder coat.

My original Lee 200gr bullets were fairly hard and powder coated, but still had a tendency to become damaged. My current alloy for my NOE bullets is powder coated and quite hard, I used a displacement reaction with copper sulfate and zinc to add ~0.5% copper to it. On top of that, they are also water quenched both after casting and after powder coating. I haven't tried this with the Lee bullets yet, as the NOE design has proven to work quite well.

[tomme boy]

You need to remeasure your barrel. I highly doubt it is 0.354" You must use a piece of pure or as near it to use to slug the barrel.

[ThermalWedgie]

When I slugged my bore, I only had WW alloy available, perhaps that's why. I'll give it a try with near pure lead when I get a chance.

I'm also curious on what method everyone is using to achieve a proper crimp with their loads? I'm currently using a 9mm taper crimp die to close any belling, and I need a finished case mouth diameter of ~0.375" to reliably chamber and drop free in my rifle. I'm curious if this crimping method is not providing adequate resistance to initiate combustion. However, my neck tension is quite high with my oversized bullets.

[cwlongshot]

May or may not be even needed experiment.

But for just removing that bell, I also use and like a tapered crimp die. I use a stand alone, from CH tools. I sometimes tighten the die a bit for a little more crimp too. I have also used the FCD but only LIGHTLY, but as a rule as you say, neck tension is higher as dia is more then factory bullets already.

CW

[mehavey]

Taper Crimp: Simply my resizing die, lightly screwed into the press three turns to take the mouth down to 0.378/9"
Sooooooooo simple... a cave-dwelling 350 handloader can do it.
:bigsmyl2:

[ThermalWedgie]

As an update: I got the chance to run the new test loads. I restarted my ladder down to 20, 20.5, and 21 grains. This range of charge weight seems to have fixed my (probable) overpressure issues. I didn't go this low in charge weight with my first ladder, due to my internal ballistics calculater predicting insufficient pressure.

This is clearly not the case in reality. Each load reliably cycled the action, and I can infer fairly complete combustion from lack of any significant carbon fouling. I suppose this is another good reason to own a chronograph. 20.5 grains achieved consistent 1.5in groups at 130 yards.

As a side note, I just received the Lee collet style crimp die and loaded a few cartridges with it. Thus far, I like it better than taper crimping, as it is mostly insensitive to differences of a few thousandths between casing lengths. It was fairly simple to adjust it to de-flare and apply mild crimp pressure, while maintaining headspace. The true results will come when I fire them.

[cwlongshot]

Its been told to me on many occasion. QL isnt accurate on straight wall cases.

I have repeatedly found this to be exactly true & with multiple powders as well.

Still love it, just as with all data start low and work up slowly.

CW

[mehavey]

Start QL w/ a medium pressure load and a chronograph.
Based on chronograph results, adjust Burn Rate (Ba) to match.
Use that modified Ba/Burn Rate to estimate/judge effective pressure, and proceed.

[mattri]

[QUOTE=lar45;4988764]I'm a little late to the discussion, sorry.
As far as H110/296 goes, Would it be worth trying 4227? 4227 has a similar burn rate, maybe slightly slower, but it is bulkier so you'll get more case fill.

+1 4227 works great n my BCA upper, very accurate with no feeding/extraction/pressure issues.

[P Flados]

FYI, in my 357AR, I had a similar pattern with "occasional" primers looking like a load was "too hot". This happened with multiple powders. With H110, this happened pretty close to the load in the OP.

Backing off the charges just enough to get consistent OK looking primers was my solution.

For me the problem was occurring around one or two grains below what others were reporting as OK in their guns.

[tomme boy]

I am done with the Legend in a AR. After taking a load out to get some data at 200 yds yesterday I was blowing primers on just about all of the ones I shot. These were shot originally in 90* weather. It was 56* when they were blowing the primers. This was with Lilgun, but H110 acts strangely as well. As you can see in this thread.

I went home and pulled the rest of the bullets and they were all exactly what I had them loaded at. I never have other powders out while loading so no chance of messing up.

I do have a ruger Ranch in 350L on order to pick up this coming week. This cartridge just behave very strangely in the AR platform. I don't see the problems in the bolt gun I see in AR guns.

[44Blam]

I am done with the Legend in a AR. After taking a load out to get some data at 200 yds yesterday I was blowing primers on just about all of the ones I shot. These were shot originally in 90* weather. It was 56* when they were blowing the primers. This was with Lilgun, but H110 acts strangely as well. As you can see in this thread.

I went home and pulled the rest of the bullets and they were all exactly what I had them loaded at. I never have other powders out while loading so no chance of messing up.

I do have a ruger Ranch in 350L on order to pick up this coming week. This cartridge just behave very strangely in the AR platform. I don't see the problems in the bolt gun I see in AR guns.

It's not the platform, its the powders.

I shot a bunch of W296 and AA1FS (same [pretty much] same also as H110) in my AR chambered in 350 Legend and everything was fine, but I never got good consistent velocities. One day, I started blowing primers IN A MATCH. I knew these powders were space sensitive but I thought, well Hodgdon has loads for it... And all the cool kids are doing it too...

I'm now shooting Norma 200 for my 180s and gonna start in on some Alliant 2400 for my 125s. I KNOW Alliant 2400 is not space sensitive. I've shot way downloaded 44 mag and even 45-70 with it.

[mehavey]

It's not the platform, its the powders.
^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

Guess which are the only two powers that have caused unexpected "problems"
https://i.postimg.cc/PfwTs87v/350-Legend-Powders-Bullets.jpg

[ThermalWedgie]

Another update:
I got a hold of the Lee collet-style crimp die, it seems to be of the same function as Lee's rifle factory crimp dies (just with a different name). I'm currently using a Lee Auto Breech Lock progressive, and setting up the crimp die while accounting for shell plate deflection proved to be a bit of a challenge. Once adjusted, the die provides a nice crimp at the case mouth that is insensitive to normal variances in case length, an issue that I was having with my taper crimp die.

As I've set it, it crimps tightly into the first driving band of my cast bullet while maintaining plenty of case mouth for headspace. I'm certain that it is sizing down this first driving band, but it doesn't seem to matter as the diameter is still larger than that of the bore. As a side note, it seems like this crimp style is going to necessitate regular annealing to prevent stress failure of the case mouth.

I got a chance to run these crimped loads, using 20.7 grains of H110, CCI 400 primers, and the 190 grain NOE bullet. Accuracy was excellent at ~130 yards with 1.5" groups. All loads cycled 100% in my rifle. Most importantly, all casings appeared perfect with no pressure signs and no stretching. I get the feeling that with a strong crimp like this, fill volume is irrelevant as the crimp provides plenty of resistance to initiate combustion.

As a side note to anyone interested, I've had success modifying 30 round Lancer 300 BLK magazines. It's a pain to slowly sand down the interior and to maintain a very slight front rib for anti-tilt function. However, these magazines hold 29 rounds and function as they should.

[P Flados]

Your load development effort sounds good so far.

As a double check, you should look for an opportunity to fire off some cold rounds to check that ignition stays reliable. My issues with H110 ignition seemed much worse below 50 degf.

And my congrats on getting a modified 30 round mag to work. My 357AR mag started out as a 20 round Pmag.