303 case forming

[blackthorn]

I read an article this afternoon that made mention of using a full-length sizing die to hydro-form the case body so the shoulder expands radially rather than stretching longitudinally. This is a procedure i am not familiar with. Can anyone provide a detailed explanation of this process? Thanks.

[dtknowles]

Forming which 303 and what are you using for parent cases.

The process is similar to fireforming but messier.

First you need to plug the hole in your shell holder so you don't pop out the primer and spray liquid down your ram. Second you need to expand the neck of the case so it will be tight in your sizing die. Third you need a ram slightly smaller than the diameter of the case mouth when the case is in the die.

You run your neck expanded case up into the sizing die, fill the case with water up to the neck. You put the ram through the top of the die and into the neck of the case and whack it with a big hammer. It might help if you put some grease on the ram as that will reduce the amount of water that sprays everywhere. I never did this to form cases, I did it to decap berdan primed brass and for that you need a lot less pressure.

When I wanted to form cases that need the shoulder pushed forward, especially on rimmed cases. I put a small charge of fast powder in the case, fill the rest with filler, plug the neck with hard bullet lube and fireform them.

Tim

[blackthorn]

I am familiar with the fire-form method, it is what I use to form cases to a chamber. My post was because I was unfamiliar with the hydro-form concept and I am curious by nature. Thanks for the explanation and I do not think i will bother trying it anytime soon.

[tomme boy]

Don't use USA made brass. It is not made to the actual British specs.

[gwpercle]

The basic premise is :
Instead of fire forming with gunpowder in your rifle's chamber ... you use water and a tight fitting plug with a heavy mallet to hydraulically form the case in a loading die .

It's sort of sketchy because of the varying amounts of force from the mallet blows aren't consistent or precise . And prepare to get wet , you and everything in a 10-15 foot radius .

Gary

[Scott.M]

Don't use USA made brass. It is not made to the actual British specs.

Assuming we are discussing the 303 Brit, which has yet to be affirmed.

[Wayne Smith]

And it forms the case to your die rather than to your chamber. I'd rather form to my chamber.

[dtknowles]

Assuming we are discussing the 303 Brit, which has yet to be affirmed.

I assumed it would be like 303 savage or something that did not have common brass. Why would you need to form 303 brit and what would you use for parent brass?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I used to fire form 303 Brit brass into 25 Krag when I could not find 30-40 Krag brass;

Tim

[blackthorn]

In the OP the subject specified 303 and yes it referred to a 303 British, but it also stated my question was initiated as a result of reading and article that mentioned hydro-forming. I was not familiar with that process and my curiosity was aroused, therefore the question. I assume the process would be the same regardless of caliber/make.

[dtknowles]

In the OP the subject specified 303 and yes it referred to a 303 British, but it also stated my question was initiated as a result of reading and article that mentioned hydro-forming. I was not familiar with that process and my curiosity was aroused, therefore the question. I assume the process would be the same regardless of caliber/make.

The process is the same but it does make a difference if you going up or down in caliber. It is better if you get the neck the right size first.

[Scott.M]

I assumed it would be like 303 savage or something that did not have common brass. Why would you need to form 303 brit and what would you use for parent brass?

Tim



Can't answer what I don't know. I see one guy saying 'Don't use USA made brass', I also see that the OP is from Canada. So if one had just the slightest ability to reason, one would assume 303 Brit.

As luck would have it, the OP confirmed.


Gee

[dtknowles]

Can't answer what I don't know. I see one guy saying 'Don't use USA made brass', I also see that the OP is from Canada. So if one had just the slightest ability to reason, one would assume 303 Brit.

As luck would have it, the OP confirmed.


Gee

Yeah, but he still is not fessing up to what he was forming into our out of 303 brit.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Maybe has an Epps Improved or similar?

https://i.imgur.com/pE0MzNQ.jpg

[blackthorn]

Nothing to "fess up" to. Curiosity as to process, nothing more, nothing less.

[RogerDat]

Does touch on a question I had. Anneal mouth and neck before or after sizing/forming brass? Since this is a curiosity thread on process.

I do some necked brass just to extend life but also have done some 8mm formed from 30-06 brass and have never been clear if there is a "best" point in the processing of brass in general and for case caliber conversion to do the annealing.

Was the concern for using US brass in 303 Brit vs foreign brass? Seems like it wouldn't much matter since the brass is getting formed to the die. I think I have both is why I wondered.

[dtknowles]

Nothing to "fess up" to. Curiosity as to process, nothing more, nothing less.

So why was the title 303 case forming and not hydraulic case forming?

Tim

[blackthorn]

So why was the title 303 case forming and not hydraulic case forming?

Tim

The article that initiated the question I had was part of a thread that was dealing with 303---so---just coincidence.

[DonHowe]

The OP didn't ask for this but I will share it anyway.
I believe the .303 Brit would benefit greatly from a forming/fireforming method I have used with success on a couple of wildcat cartridges. For new .303 brass I recommend first necking the case up to 8mm. Then neck back to .303 gradually, trying the case in the chamber, until the neck is reduced far enough back to allow the bolt to close on the case with resistance. In this method the case is trapped between the bolt face and the "secondary shoulder" left at the base of the neck. Using the cream of wheat method to fireform will produce a properly formed and headspace case.

[EDG]

Of the most readily available cases the PPU is the best choice.
The PPU case head is a little larger and the case walls are a little thicker at the junction of the case walls and the case head.

If you analyze the reasons for brass failure

You will find that the British ammo specs and the SAAMI specs are very different from .303 Brit rifle chambers.
Don't try to FL resize fired cases with USA -SAAMI standard loading dies.
The location of the shoulder is very different.
The SAAMI shoulder is about .04 shorter than the shoulder of a Lee-Enfield rifle chamber.

[blackthorn]

If you analyze the reasons for brass failure

You will find that the British ammo specs and the SAAMI specs are very different from .303 Brit rifle chambers.
Don't try to FL resize fired cases with USA -SAAMI standard loading dies.
The location of the shoulder is very different.
The SAAMI shoulder is about .04 shorter than the shoulder of a Lee-Enfield rifle chamber.

OK---now you have aroused my curiosity again! If one does not use USA-SAAMI FL spec loading dies, what dies should they use? Are there dies produced off shore i.e. Briton or perhaps Australia that address the shortcomings identified?? Or, do your comments simply indicate we need to partial-full-length size only?

[44magLeo]

For the first firing of a USA case, The rim of the case will control the head space The same as it will with a European case.
Once fired, then you adjust the size die for minimum sizing, just as you would any caliber.
I haven't checked SAMMI or CIP for the case and chamber specs for the 303 British so I can't say for sure what they are. I have read about the 303 chambers on some rifles being a bit loose. Not just in base to shoulder length but the diameter and taper of the shoulder. Some factory chambers can look like an improved version.
Most of these rifles were built for a battle field. The looser chambers let dirty are slightly damaged ammo to chamber without malfunctions cropping up the jam the rifle. The rim controlling head space lets ammo a bit short function well.
Most ammo used on a battle field is factory stuff and doesn't have to meet the reloaders specs for chamber fit.
On reloading dies I don't think they used worn battle rifles to determine the specs they build dies to. I think they would use the SAMMI or CIP specs. I think
They would make them to fit some where between the minimum and maximum case size specified.
On the topic of hydro forming cases. The process is very similar to fire forming. The case is held in a chamber and pressure is exerted inside the case to swell the case to fit the chamber.
As the pressure inside the case increases the weakest part of the case expands first. This is the neck and shoulder because these are the thinnest. As pressure increases the expansion moves down the case expanding it along the thickness of the case walls. The head of the case is the last to expand.
This will happen this way with hydralic pressure or pressure of burning powder. As the case expands at the neck and shoulder it expands out to match whatever the chamber is. If the shoulder ans body expand more it can't draw the brass it needs from the base of the case it comes from the neck. This shortens the case as much as it needs to so the case can form to the chamber.
The case shortens as the case expands radially. The two changes go hand in hand. One can't happen without the other.
Leo

[Mk42gunner]

On hydraulic forming of brass, whatever caliber. I have never done it, but I did see an article in either Nonte's book or one of the old Gun Digests' from the 1960's.

It doesn't look too terribly hard, and minimal special tools needed. A solid shell holder, a fired primer and a close fitting punch. The picture I saw in the article even used a claw hammer, which would not be my first choice.

I do think it would be a good idea to do this outside just in case water sprays everywhere.

Read through some of Grumpa's old posts about case forming, IIRC he did a lot of hydroforming on the brass he converted for sale.

Robert

[EDG]

For the cost of hydraulic forming you could pay half the cost of a new SAAMI chambered barrel that would avoid the need for case forming.

[samari46]

For regular shooting with my two Lee Enfields I'm trying something different to prolong case life. I've hear of this being done with other cases. Would neck up the factory 303 brass to 8mm and use a form and trim die to slowly neck it back to its original caliber leaving a secondary shoulder. And Ignoring the rim an it will headspace off the new secondary shoulder and hopefully eliminate the case head failures due to improper sizing die. All the local ranges are closaed due to the virus. So will have plenty of time to see how all this is going shake out. Frank

[Watergoat]

As a very long time 303 British shooter, I will tell you that the post above on big chambers on battle rifles is spot on. The Brits had long experience fighting in some of the worst places on earth, and had figured out what works to keep rifles firing. For those of us who are target shooters and reloaders, here are two things that do wonders for case life. First, get a neck sizing die, or a set that has neck and full length dies. Mine is Redding, and it is great. Next, get one of the Ruger #1 rifles in 303 that were made a few years back. These are cut with SAMMI spec reamers, and the fired cases come out looking normal, not like some improved wildcat. I suppose one could get a custom barrel made, but that would be kind of spendy for an old mil surp. Better to just neck size only, and keep the brass separate for each rifle.