38 Special Loads

[Scott.M]

I'm sure it's been beaten to death, but I am the new guy so here it goes.

Lets say you found 5 pounds of Hodgdon Universal and 4 pounds of HP38 you forgot you had (in an unopened box from the shipper 4 years ago). You've spent your entire life being a Unique kind of guy, with a little Bullseye for good measure (a double entendre without intending it to be), but you would like to use the HP38 and Universal.

On hand you have a metric ton worth of 358311's and H&G 51, around the 160gr weight along with a short bus full of 358432 160's.

What would your pick be for a good mid-range/upper range with those bullet and the new found powders? I have zero experience with either, as I've said I've been pretty much a 4.5-5gr Unique guy for 20+ years.

I say mid/upper as I'm assuming Universal is not the best of lower end loads, unsure about HP38.

On hand are a lot of K frame Smiths, a few Security/Speed 6's , and a few Ruger LCR's.

If you feel truly inspired, I also have a few 148gr DEWC that I typically load with 3.2 t 3.5grs of Bullseye, depending on application. But if Universal/HP38 can work for that too, I wouldn't mind.


Thanks in advance,
Scott

[Winger Ed.]

If you can't find a good recipe for it---

This is the perfect reason you 'need' another gun that it will work well in.

[35remington]

I have long considered Universal one of the poorest powders extant for the 38 Special. I feel less antagonistic toward W231/HP 38.

A lot of chronograph testing formulated that opinion.

[Bazoo]

HP38 is a good 38 special powder. It also works into the starting magnum range for both 357 and 44 magnum according to my data. It works well for light 38s though. It's the same powder as W231 and data can be used for that if more available.

[Kosh75287]

I'M a big fan of Unique, too, but I've used a fair amount of W231/HP38/whatever they're calling it this week. It's cleaner burning and meters better than Unique, but is faster burning and not as versatile across a range of pistol calibers (.380 ACP to magnum-level .45 Colt). If you intend to use it mainly for .38 Spl, the latter considerations are no major disadvantage. Certainly, if 4 pounds of of W231 "just fell in my lap", so to speak, I'd take my supply of Unique off of ".38 Special duty" (not its best use, anyway) and divert it to other uses!

If memory serves, 3.0-3.2/W231/158 makes a very shootable snubby load, which is even manageable in alloy-framed snubbies. 3.3-3.8/W231/158 makes for a good "general purpose" load for medium & larger frame .38s. Check this in a current manual, but I believe one may go as high as 4.3/W231/158 in +P rated .38s, without exceeding SAAMI pressure specs. Still very shootable.
I agree that W231 will give you performance just inside the magnum spectrum, at max loads, but velocities will be uninspiring for heavier projectiles. THIS is where Universal & Unique will perform at their best. They may not quite deliver TRUE magnum perfomance, but they'll get you closer than W231 or Bullseye.
Lastly, W231 works well in almost all auto pistol calibers, except perhaps 10mm, .38 Super or .357 SiG. It probably WILL work at least "okay" in those 2 calibers, but there are better propellants. I've shot at least a pound of W231 through my .40 S&W and my .45s, with no complaint, but I didn't replace them once they were used up. I just prefer Unique for most things.

Since Hodgdon Universal is tacitly marketed as "Hodgdon UNIQUE", it is no surprise to me that its performance in .38 Special may be "okay", but is rarely "terrific".

[Scott.M]

I'M a big fan of Unique, too, but I've used a fair amount of W231/HP38/whatever they're calling it this week. It's cleaner burning and meters better than Unique, but is faster burning and not as versatile across a range of pistol calibers (.380 ACP to magnum-level .45 Colt). If you intend to use it mainly for .38 Spl, the latter considerations are no major disadvantage. Certainly, if 4 pounds of of W231 "just fell in my lap", so to speak, I'd take my supply of Unique off of ".38 Special duty" (not its best use, anyway) and divert it to other uses!

If memory serves, 3.0-3.2/W231/158 makes a very shootable snubby load, which is even manageable in alloy-framed snubbies. 3.3-3.8/W231/158 makes for a good "general purpose" load for medium & larger frame .38s. Check this in a current manual, but I believe one may go as high as 4.3/W231/158 in +P rated .38s, without exceeding SAAMI pressure specs. Still very shootable.
I agree that W231 will give you performance just inside the magnum spectrum, at max loads, but velocities will be uninspiring for heavier projectiles. THIS is where Universal & Unique will perform at their best. They may not quite deliver TRUE magnum perfomance, but they'll get you closer than W231 or Bullseye.
Lastly, W231 works well in almost all auto pistol calibers, except perhaps 10mm, .38 Super or .357 SiG. It probably WILL work at least "okay" in those 2 calibers, but there are better propellants. I've shot at least a pound of W231 through my .40 S&W and my .45s, with no complaint, but I didn't replace them once they were used up. I just prefer Unique for most things.

Since Hodgdon Universal is tacitly marketed as "Hodgdon UNIQUE", it is no surprise to me that its performance in .38 Special may be "okay", but is rarely "terrific".


Thanks, and if it helps I have a few 357's to load for too. Perhaps Universal would be better for that in a midrange load? I tend to use 2400 for cast and 110/296 for jacketed.

[Conditor22]

Lyman #4 says w-231 3.5 675fps -- 4.9 906

HP-38 is practically the same

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

page 267

[35remington]

My answer is actually “yes” to 231 but an emphatic NO to Universal. Just clarifying. Much load data exists for 231 and I suggest you avail yourself of those sources for standard velocity loads with your bullet of choice.

As for Universal, better in the 40 and 9mm. Bad in 38. Ballistic consistency is absolutely horrible.

[tazman]

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

This is the link to the Hodgdon reloading data site. There is a lot of information for the powders you mentioned for both 38 special and 357 magnum.
Hodgdon sells both of those powders and provides the data free of charge.
More data available than just those boolit weights as well.
HP38/win231 works well for me although I usually use other powders. I have never used Universal so I can't offer any experience there.

[Kosh75287]

I keep 3 burning rates of pistol powders on hand, when supplies allow:
Fast: Alliant Bullseye, Red Dot (Promo) or IMR-700X.
Medium: Alliant Unique, Herco, BE-86, or Accurate #5 (in that order).
Slow: Alliant 2400 or one of the 4227s. I avoid H110/W296 like the plague, for anything except .30 Carbine.
If can't obtain any of the fast or slow powders, I can get by on the medium-rate ones, until supplies catch up. That's why I usually buy these very heavily.
If I "luck in" to another propellant not on my list, I'll almost certainly use it, but I usually go right back to using something on my list. I'm prolly missing out on some really wondrous propellant out there, but I'm a little old to be "sleepin' around" on my favorites.

[lotech]

My standard .38 Special load is the 160 grain H&G #51 and 4 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is 810 fps in a 4" S&W and about 40 fps more in a 6".
Another favorite is 4.3 grains, all else the same. Muzzle velocity is about 850-860 in a 4" S&W.

With the #358311, I like 3.8 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is around 800 fps in a 4" revolver.

All above loads are accurate. In some guns the #358311 will outshoot the #51 slightly, but in most guns the #51 is a bit more accurate.

[carolina sorillo]

Sell the Universal and buy more Unique. Sell or trade the HP38 for more Unique!:grin:

CS

[NC_JEFF]

Scott I started with 38 special loads nearly 30 years ago using HP38 and had great success at target load levels in a 6" K frame Smith using 158 swc and 148 hbwc bullets from Speer. In my opinion, HP38 is a fine powder for 38 special

[Winger Ed.]

Thanks. I was gonna ask for a good chicken recipe too, but I you'd probably tell me how you like pork.


I'm sure you'll win a lot of friends with 20-50 years experience really tripping over each other
wanting to spend the time to help you with a statement like that one bro.

[poppy42]

HP38 is a good 38 special powder. It also works into the starting magnum range for both 357 and 44 magnum according to my data. It works well for light 38s though. It's the same powder as W231 and data can be used for that if more available.

Bazoo you are 100% correct! The only difference between HP-38 and Win 231 is the label! Powders come out of the same vat and the only difference being the bottle they put it in and the label they put on that bottle. The data is 100% interchangeable!

[Kosh75287]

Not finding fault (I'm in no position to), but y'all seem to like LRN boolitts (Lyman #358311) an awful lot, over SWCs or LRNFPs. Are the LRNs enough more accurate than the others to offset their poorer terminal performance?

[35remington]

There are many testimonials here and elsewhere as to the accuracy of the 358311. It has survived these many years for a reason. Most shooting is inanimate targets so no downside there.

I have even made a file trim die to make flatpointed 358311’s to address terminal performance issues on those rare occasions when it is needed, such as for small game or in the reload for my speedloaders in 38. I often carry a 638 as a light duty carry piece. This removes about 10 grains of weight and makes it equivalent to any SWC in effect.

[poppy42]

Lyman #4 says w-231 3.5 675fps -- 4.9 906

HP-38 is practically the same

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

page 267

HP-38 and Win 231 are the exact same powder the only difference is the labeling the data is 100% interchangeable. I’m not just talking out the side of my mouth I verified this with Hodgdon

[Scott.M]

My standard .38 Special load is the 160 grain H&G #51 and 4 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is 810 fps in a 4" S&W and about 40 fps more in a 6".
Another favorite is 4.3 grains, all else the same. Muzzle velocity is about 850-860 in a 4" S&W.

With the #358311, I like 3.8 grains HP-38/ 231. Muzzle velocity is around 800 fps in a 4" revolver.

All above loads are accurate. In some guns the #358311 will outshoot the #51 slightly, but in most guns the #51 is a bit more accurate.


Thank you

[tazman]

Not finding fault (I'm in no position to), but y'all seem to like LRN boolitts (Lyman #358311) an awful lot, over SWCs or LRNFPs. Are the LRNs enough more accurate than the others to offset their poorer terminal performance?

In my revolvers, the 358311 shoots better groups at 50 yards than any other boolit. Others are very close but they always get edged out.
At closer distances, there is little, if any, difference in group size.
If I were hunting or shooting at two legged critters, I would use something a bit different.

[35remington]

The information I provided suggesting right away that W231 was much preferable to Universal was useless? I am curious as to what prompted your suggestion that I provided no useful input.

The question was.....“What would your pick be for a good mid-range/upper range with those bullet and the new found powders?”

I said my pick was W231 over Universal, and exactly why.

[Winger Ed.]

Do they have 20 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times? I understand it's difficult for same to answer a simple question. I know some enjoy telling you how a watch is made when you ask for the time. Those are the 1 year of experience 20 times kind of guys. I figure I made it 55 years, with 29 of them on active duty that I'll survive a few more, BRO

Do whatever works best for ya.

In my humble experience:
I've found that the less rude I am, the more others are willing to help me.
Especially here, we ain't on the base any more, it's best to resume normal behavior here.

There wasn't much of a learning curve on that one.
It's one lesson applied thousands of times.

[Gray Fox]

Not to hijack this thread, but antagonistic comments aside, what is a good use of Universal Clays in handgun reloading? I have read many comments that it is "about the same" as Unique, but can it be used with safety and accuracy in mid rang loads and above in some calibers? GF

[KYCaster]

Geeeezzzzz... Haters gonna hate!
If you can find a more versatile handgun powder than W231/HP38 I'd sure like to know what it is! It will work well with any of your various .38 bullets/boolits.
As far as Unique vs. Universal... with a couple of caveats they're kinda/sorta interchangeable. The really "unique" thing about Unique is that from wimpy to wild, the energy per grain of powder is pretty much linear. You'll get a proportional increase in velocity for a proportional increase in charge weight. At minimum charge weights you'll probably get sooty cases, lots of smoke and erratic velocities, but no dangerous pressure excursions. Increase the charge and you'll see an improvement in performance till you approach maximum charge for the application. You'll find very few powders with this versatility.
Universal, on the other hand, works best in the middle of its useful range. If your charge is too low you're not going to be happy with the results. As you approach maximum charges, Universal is more prone to pressure spikes than Unique.
If you're happy with your Unique loads then you can probably substitute Universal without any issues.

I don't know how W296/H110 got into this discussion, but if you're not using these in your magnum handgun loads you're missing out on some outstanding performance.

YMMV
Jerry

[Low Budget Shooter]

HP38/W231 is excellent for 38 Special from minimum to +P charges.
For me, Universal worked so well in 9mm that I used up all the Universal I had loading that caliber.

[35remington]

As mentioned, Universal works great in higher pressure, small capacity cases.

Its velocity variation is excessive in larger capacity lower pressure cartridges. Most particularly as powder shifts in the case as it is wont to do under such conditions. It is beyond bad in the 32 Long to the point of being near useless.

[ReloaderFred]

This thread has run it's course, and is closed.