consignment firearmes

[cub45]

When a gun is brought in to a shop for consignment it is put in the bound book, if the gun does not sell why does the owner of the gun have to fill out a 4473 to get his own gun back? The gun has not transferred to anybody still same owner. When dealer sells the gun it's transferred from the consignee to the person, gun was not in dealers name, just in the books from one person to another.
question is why do I have to do 4473 for my own gun?

[deltaenterprizes]

If it is for repair there is no 4473 , that is crazy! I have wondered why also!

[BK7saum]

My take on it and I'm probably wrong, is that once it is in the FFLs book they are the possessor, even though it hasn't been bought by the shop.

What if you had been convicted of a felony while the shop had the firearm. Then they would be transferring to a felon. It basically covers the FFL

[poppy42]

The same thing happens when you pawn a gun. I can walk into a gun shop pawn my gun, walk out the door turn around in the parking lot walk back in again and say I change my mind . I still have to fill out the forms and go through the check to get my gun back.

[cub45]

OK what if I say put it in for repair and get an offer to buy, now what?

[Winger Ed.]

OK what if I say put it in for repair and get an offer to buy, now what?

When I kept a FFL, guns coming in for repair were entered in their own section of my logbook if they were kept overnight.

In this case-
A logbook entry is made for the dealer to show receiving it from you, and logging it out of his 'kept overnight' page.
Then the buyer fills out a 4473, and takes it home.

The dealer's log book entry will show receiving it from you, and selling it to someone else.
It might be a little different now, but probably not by much.

[Winger Ed.]

The same thing happens when you pawn a gun. I can walk into a gun shop pawn my gun, walk out the door turn around in the parking lot walk back in again and say I change my mind . I still have to fill out the forms and go through the check to get my gun back.

Exactly.

Once it is determined the dealer 'owns' it. It immediately has to be logged in as 'received'--- in ink.
Once that entry is made, there is no erasing it.

When the dealer transfers possession of it, the proper entries and procedures have to be made for its 'disposition',
no matter from whom, or to who, or if the time lapse in between is 2 minutes, or two years.

I've had people argue about it.
I always tell them, "OK, we'll do it your way. But first give me $10,000 dollars".
"Huh"?
"Yeah, that should about cover the fine if I get caught".

[rancher1913]

I was going to display some of my grandfathers ww2 collection at a local gun shop that has a large display of all kinds of military stuff and was told because its in the shop and the shop is a ffl holder they have to log everything in their books to keep the atf happy, once its on their books its considered their property, my stuff is still at my house.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It's like Winger Ed says really. It's a technicality. Although the anti-gun element of the Govt. has tried hard over the years to blur the distinction between retail dealers and gunsmiths, the two parts of the gun business are still recognized as being separate and distinct.

A gun is present in a shop. The question is, to whom does it belong? The dealer is responsible to account for the status of all guns present in his shop. If it is there for repair, that falls under gunsmithing and no 4473 is required for it to be picked up by the actual owner. If his brother, wife, nephew comes in to pick it up they can't have it. On the other hand, if it is brought into the shop on consignment for sale it is not there for repair and the dealer has to account for the firearm should an ATF inspection occur. It has become part of his inventory and is entered into his dealer book the same as if he had received it from a distributor or purchased it outright. When an ATF inspection does occur he must show a 4473 for every gun he no longer possesses, except for one returned to the owner after repair.

The FFL business has been around long enough now, and regulated and legislated enough now, that no shades of grey remain. The same FFL is used for both businesses, retail sales or gunsmithing, be they under the same roof or in different establishments. There have been several attempts to separate the licenses, so far (thankfully) unsuccessful. Otherwise, a dealer who did both functions would have to buy two licenses-- and now days they aren't cheap! Further, there have been attempts to reclassify gunsmiths as manufacturers, also so far unsuccessfully, and to make gunsmiths pay the licensing fee that manufacturers pay, which would put about 90% of them out of business. There are stupid people in all professions and walks of life, but the smart FFL licensees take no chances at all with shortcuts when it comes to paperwork.

[farmbif]

I know of a gun shop that lost their ffl because they had large collection of old winchesters on display, not for sale, and I guess not on the books

[waksupi]

When they are signed in, they need signed out in the bound book. Government, doncha know?

[Winger Ed.]

and I guess not on the books

That's a problem. A real big one too. Maybe even a problem so big it had hair on it.

The sentence that says,,, blah, blah, blah, applies to all firearms on the premises means exactly that.
Of the different ATF agents that audited me, not a single one had a sense of humor.

[indian joe]

That's a problem. A real big one too. Maybe even a problem so big it had hair on it.

The sentence that says,,, blah, blah, blah, applies to all firearms on the premises means exactly that.
Of the different ATF agents that audited me, not a single one had a sense of humor.

I thought you fellers didnt have gun registration in the US ? sure sounds like it from where I am reading ........

[Gar10]

The good ole federal government!

[Winger Ed.]

I thought you fellers didnt have gun registration in the US ? sure sounds like it from where I am reading ........

Not registration, but an attempt at tracking one if its recovered in a crime in the hopes it can lead back to bad people.
I don't think it's very effective, but a FBI agent might tell ya differently.

The way it works is if a gun is recovered:
The ATF will go to the manufacturer and ask where they shipped it.
They'll tell them which distributor/wholesale house, Police dept. military--- Where ever it went.

Then they'll go to them or a retail dealer FFL holder, and ask the same question.

If the agent ends up at a retail dealer- That retail dealer will show them the 4473.
Then they go to that person who bought it.
And that's where the trail goes cold, and it can disappear, especially if they'd died a few years before.

Even if they're still alive, they can expect to hear-
It was stolen 5 years ago. I sold it at a gun show. etc.

Very seldom will a trace end up with someone saying,
"I dropped it on the floor of the bank after I robbed it, and shot those people.

About the best law enforcement can hope for is to find a dealer selling guns illegally.
Which is something they are always looking for.

In the days before the background checks-
I've had them take some of the names of people I'd sold guns to as I was being audited,
and I'm sure they did it to run a quickie criminal records check on them.

The 4473s, and dealer's logbook are privately held by them, and not in the law enforcement records system.
But if a agent comes in and wants to see it---- it better be right & tight.

[indian joe]

Not registration, but an attempt at tracking one if its recovered in a crime in the hopes it can lead back to bad people.
I don't think it's very effective, but a FBI agent might tell ya differently.

The way it works is if a gun is recovered:
The ATF will go to the manufacturer and ask where they shipped it.
They'll tell them which distributor/wholesale house, Police dept. military--- Where ever it went.

Then they'll go to them or a retail dealer FFL holder, and ask the same question.

If the agent ends up at a retail dealer- That retail dealer will show them the 4473.
Then they go to that person who bought it.
And that's where the trail goes cold, and it can disappear, especially if they'd died a few years before.

Even if they're still alive, they can expect to hear-
It was stolen 5 years ago. I sold it at a gun show. etc.

Very seldom will a trace end up with someone saying,
"I dropped it on the floor of the bank after I robbed it, and shot those people.

About the best law enforcement can hope for is to find a dealer selling guns illegally.
Which is something they are always looking for.

In the days before the background checks-
I've had them take some of the names of people I'd sold guns to as I was being audited,
and I'm sure they did it to run a quickie criminal records check on them.

The 4473s, and dealer's logbook are privately held by them, and not in the law enforcement records system.
But if a agent comes in and wants to see it---- it better be right & tight.

ok so halfway there !!!!
If they follow that trail to my house I better be able to produce the firearm OR ELSE - a stolen or lost one becomes the fault (and a criminal charge follows) of the owner.
looks like your people have figured "screw the dealer - not enough of them to matter - but we still need the vote of the shooter"

at present time we dont have much more trouble purchasing than some of you - permit to aquire takes maybe a month - straight forward online process - once that is in hand - visit the dealer to record the transfer and take the gun home (different altogether for pistols - we find that hard to understand how a pistol in your country is /seems to be regarded as less dangerous than a long arm - we are organised club use only for handguns here and very tightly controlled ) no pump action shotguns allowed here, no semi auto anything allowed, neither of which bothers me I like levers. The city "wanna be army guy" thing bothers me - camo gear and tacticool whatever guns - sends a wrong message into the community and in the end we will pay a dear price for that I reckon. Regardless the rights or wrongs of it perception becomes peoples reality and the perception generated in non shooters by this stuff is not good.

[Winger Ed.]

ok so halfway there !!!!
If they follow that trail to my house I better be able to produce the firearm OR ELSE -

Don't over think this.

Like the other few hundred million of them here:
A legally acquired gun in your house, or anywhere else you put it, wouldn't be subject to a trace.
Traces are sometimes done on guns seized from criminals, or at crime scenes.

Hand guns are considered more dangerous here.
That's why the age to buy one is 21 instead of 18 for a rifle or shot gun.
And why there are more restrictions on carrying them.

[indian joe]

Don't over think this.

Like the other few hundred million of them here:
A legally acquired gun in your house, or anywhere else you put it, wouldn't be subject to a trace.
Traces are sometimes done on guns seized from criminals, or at crime scenes.

Hand guns are considered more dangerous here.
That's why the age to buy one is 21 instead of 18 for a rifle or shot gun.
And why there are more restrictions on carrying them.

I been watchin too much utube....:bigsmyl2:

[Winger Ed.]

I been watchin too much utube....:bigsmyl2:

It's OK. I suffer from the same thing.
Sometimes the wife says she's tempted to call for a intervention.:bigsmyl2: