Pedersoli Gibbs rifle.

[sharps4590]

Anyone played with one of these? Are they a paper patch bullet rifle or can one successfully and accurately load grease groove bullets? Got a line on one but I've paper patched all the bullets I ever intend to..

[Chill Wills]

I have one. I have competed with both PP and GG bullets and have molds for both. A GG bullet of 0.448-0.449" is what mine likes best. For PP bullets, 0.449"+ is good as the paper will slightly crush to a good fit, the Lead not so much.
I had both Paul Jones and Brooks cut molds for them. Due to no match here and me not going to Oak Ridge in some time, I have not shot mine for years.

[sharps4590]

Chill, may I ask what weight the bullets were and if you used a wad of any kind over the powder? I assume that as this is basically a target rifle, bullets at .448 - .449 will stay against the powder?

I really don't know why I'm looking at this. I have a Shiloh #1 Sporter set up for long range and, as with yourself, I haven't fired it in a couple years and then only at 100 yards....which as you know is a bit boring for a long range rifle. I sure miss my 500 yard range at the farm.

[oldracer]

I have one, the second most accurate rifle I own. I shoot to 300 yards which is only how far our range goes and I shoot both paper patch and grease groove bullets. As strange as it sounds the 520 grain bullet from the pedersoli mold, 90 grains of FFG black powder and NO wad at all gives me the most accuracy. I also have a paper patch mold (forget who) of 560 grains in Creedmoor shape and a Track of the Wolf 540 grain grease groove Creedmoor bullet and both of those I use a fiber wad over 90 grains of FFG powder. I use Doug Knoells solid lube added by pan lube but don't do many as the mice come from miles around as it tastes so good! All the bullets slide down the barrel with no pressure and I just barely seat them on the wad. I did replace my sights with a set from Lee Shaver as they just felt better. It took me 4 years to find a used one, got it from a young fellow in Texas and he shot patched round balls in it for regular off hand matches!
John

[sharps4590]

Good grief!!! A 12 lb. rifle in offhand matches? Welll...guess I can't say much, my one Schuetzen rifle is 11 1/2 lbs. and the other is 12 lbs. and they're for offhand.

John, what's the diameter of your bullets?

[oldracer]

I think they are all 0.451 bore riding pure lead bullets, meaning they slide down with little to no resistance. The twist rate on mine is 1 in 16 and has a very large patent breech. I wipe between shots, one damp and one dry (both sides) and also use the Pedersoli funnel for loading powder in. Check out the MLAIC world championship matches and also the South African black powder websites to see how they shoot them. The trigger is 2#, max weight 12#, sling can be attached in one place so it is wrapped around and tied at the fore end and most shooters shoot prone. I read in one of the rules somewhere is you have two miss-fires when on one string you are out of that section! Pays to have good caps I'd say! The Pedersoli Gibbs has been the 1000 yard world champion if I remember right.
John

[John Boy]

The Pedersoli Gibbs is a match winning rifle
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/pedersoli-gibbs-rifle-t1505.html

[sharps4590]

I have read about the Gibbs/Pedersoli and South Africa several years ago and took note even then. Which is why I'm looking at this one. I might have read another article on the rifle and remembered the accolades the writer bestowed on it. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, pun intended but, Monday is coming....if it's still there. My only.....aggravation.....is I can only get 100 yards here at the house and it's a 40 mile drive one way to a 500 yard range.

I do thank all of you for taking the time to answer my questions.

That was an interesting link Johnboy, thank you.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Not a Gibbs, but I have an early Parker Hale 0.451" Volunteer which is very similar. This rifle like the Gibbs has a fast twist (!:18") Rigby square form rifling and came with a factory boolit mould and sizer serial numbered to the rifle.

Truly, the most accurate muzzle loading rifle I own!

A couple of things which will improve accuracy, use a long drop tube to deposit new powder into the chamber. Shoot 'wet' that is to say, wipe the bore after each shot with 'moose milk' on a dampened patch, leaving the bore just slightly damp for the next boolit. I also coat the boolit in lube and fit a 0.030 wad to the base at loading.

[oldracer]

Some additional info on mine: I use 0.030 wad just sitting on the powder. After 10 or so shots I wipe the patent breach with a home made scraper and clean the goop out. Using "Moose Milk" is about the best I guess. As I said I use pure lead and coat it with the Lee Liquid lube and let it dry more or less before I put lube in the grooves and sometimes I do the lube at the range. That makes my hands mice and soft. I would use either Doug Knoells lube or Steve Garbes lube as they are about equal. On mine the tang staff did not sit up straight so I had to shim one side. The twist rate of mine is 1 in 16, newer ones are 1 in 18 I read. Mine uses 1/4 - 28 nipples and most any #11 cap. The guy that used to do their repairs and such told me to never use a 209 primer adapter. The trigger breaks at exactly 2# with no creep or such, it is not a set trigger. They are not allowed in NMLAIC matches.
John

PS: Buy it or you'll be sorry for ever!

[Chill Wills]

Chill, may I ask what weight the bullets were and if you used a wad of any kind over the powder? I assume that as this is basically a target rifle, bullets at .448 - .449 will stay against the powder?

Sharps4590, The bullet weights of the three main bullets I used were 530 to 540 grains. I had Steve Brooks make two identical bullets for me. Kinda! The bullets were the same length and nose but one was PP and the other was GG. I wanted to test the two with the same loads to see if the PP had a better Bc, as well as if one was the more accurate match bullet.
Yes, in the 16-1 Pb-Sn alloy needed for long range accuracy 0.448 0.449" bullets are the correct size for the Pedersoli Gibbs. Bullets seat firm on the powder and in no way are going to move once seated. I like 0.060" wads. After the powder charge is drop-tubed to the powderchamber a wad is placed square on the muzzle and pushed home in the powder. The 0.460" wad is a friction fit and does not get sideways. Next the bullet is placed in the muzzle and started with the thumb, then 3" in with the ramrod and then you step away to arms length and gently push home the bullet until it seats in top the charge. At arms length you don't have a great deal of down force. That is the point. Do not bounce the rod!

Of note, the British small bore ML rifles were (or close to) .451 and that is where that comes from. The Italian Pedersoli Gibbs rifle use Pedersoli's production barrels which are know to run 0.449". Their broached barrels are very good BTW.

My last trip to Africa in 2006 I shot the international match held in Cape Town and spent a lot of time with there (RSA) BP members as well as other countries. To be clear, the 2006 matches were for Black Powder Cartridge Rifles. There is an almost 100 percent cross over in those countries from BPCR to LRML.

Pedersoli made the Gibbs in two twist rates and two calibers. 45 cal in the long-range version with 18 twist using their BPCR 45 barrels and a short range rifle using a slow round ball twist. If you intend to buy this rifle, get it in writing (money back) that it is the fast twist. I know of a few people that got a slow twist rifle at auction and the seller said, even when asked, it was fast, not knowing there were two kinds made. Then there is the smaller 40 cal long range rifle, which is rare.


Most all of us found accuracy was best using the CCI Magnum #11. Platinum lined nipples are a must. A regular nipple will burn out fast with the high pressure loads. Accuracy is gone in 15 shots. There is a new nipple out there now and I have not used it as of yet.

In those days I supplied GG cast bullets for one of the main mail order suppliers to the Gibbs LRML. I used the Brooks GG mold cast in 20-1 as it was a little blunter than the more streamlined PP bullet with its long unsupported nose.

[oldracer]

I am surprised that more folks have not spoken up with their loads, wads, bullets, caps, ETC, ETC. With the Pedersoli Gibbs it is similar to a newer Sharps or Rolling Block where there can be up to a year of testing and trying and.........! Even though this is an off hand rifle I'd suggest using a solid rest such as a LeadSled or similar to take you out of the picture. I have a couple inches of foam where my butt stock sets against the back of the sled and it is great! As Chill sez, have them test the twist rate and talk them out of some molds!
John

[indian joe]

Anyone played with one of these? Are they a paper patch bullet rifle or can one successfully and accurately load grease groove bullets? Got a line on one but I've paper patched all the bullets I ever intend to..

I watched a bloke shoot a nice 500yard possible (50/50) with one of these and grease boolits a couple years ago - first time he shot it in competition

[sharps4590]

It is advertised as a 1-18 twist and as they are barrel makers and muzzleloader builders as well I suspect they know what they're talking about and, I know a guy who works there. Not a 100% guarantee but I feel as if they're trustworthy. I have one of their custom Hawken's....and it's a shooter!

Chill, John, thank you for your information.

[charlie b]

I really, really, really wanted one a few years ago. So, to see if I would like long range ML I went to a poor substitute, the Lyman GPH. Yes, .50cal and 32 twist so limited on bullets (I was also considering BPCR with the Marlin long barrel). I settled on 450gn as max that the twist rate would stabilize. Shot a lot of GG and PP bullets.

I learned a lot about what it took to get decent accuracy. What I learned more about was that after 10 shots I was done for the day. A 400 or 500gn bullet fired with 80-100gn of powder creates quite a bit of recoil. The Gibbs is a bit heavier than the almost 10lb Lyman, but, it would still get your attention.

So, unless you have fired a steady diet of these kinds of rifles you might want to reconsider.

PS the 'other' nipples are the AMPCO nipples. While not as good as the platinum, they will give you 50-100 shots or so before they wear out.

[Chill Wills]

Hello Charlie. Respectfully, It is not the AMPCO nipple.
Both the Platinum lined and the 'other' are one off shop built. The problem with they are worn out by 50 shots is they are wearing out from the first shot. Accuracy degrades a little with each shot from the first. Match shooters (the Gibbs is a match rifle) can not be competitive with less than consistency from the first to the last shot.

There are a lot of reasons that make this true. Too many to go into now.

[sharps4590]

charlie, I was shooting BPCR in 1986 with a 45-70 and a 520 gr. bullet over 60 grs. of black. Graduated to a 45-90, same bullet, 80 grs. of black, thus my handle. I also was shooting a 300 Win. Mag in 1000 yards matches at the same time. I appreciate the comments but this is far from my first rodeo.

Been shooting muzzleloaders since '75 and I never did get why the "bounce the rod" routine. My neighbor does that and it bugs the crap out of me...lol! Chill, I've always seated the PRB just as you describe except it usually takes two strokes, seat firmly, prime and fire....or cap and fire. I usually shot flinters.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I don't know if it applies to the Gibbs rifle, but in my Pedersoli Sharps, they have a tapered bore giving the barrel a progressive depth rifling. That is to say the rifling is 0.0015 deeper at the muzzle than at the chamber.

The taper was confirmed by a chamber cast and also at the muzzle on all my Sharps as well as my 1886 sporting rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/NGxgFnp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6KviTv1.jpg

[Edward]

That is an impressive collection , my wall would fall over with excitement :bigsmyl2: /Ed

[indian joe]

I don't know if it applies to the Gibbs rifle, but in my Pedersoli Sharps, they have a tapered bore giving the barrel a progressive depth rifling. That is to say the rifling is 0.0015 deeper at the muzzle than at the chamber.

The taper was confirmed by a chamber cast and also at the muzzle on all my Sharps as well as my 1886 sporting rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/NGxgFnp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6KviTv1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NGxgFnp.jpg

Wallace
I have a 1876 Uberti (45/75) with a pedersoli barrel - have not done a chamber cast - but its a beautiful barrel - the best I have had my mitts on .
Shooting a modified CBE 460-535PB ---got him to take the bottom drive band and lube groove off and its casts 466 grains - single loaded over 72 grains FFg so its kissing the lands - I feel like this thing would do MOA with a better driver (or scoped) - came close a couple of times with three and five shots - they do make nice barrels!!!!

[charlie b]

charlie, I was shooting BPCR in 1986 with a 45-70 and a 520 gr. bullet over 60 grs. of black. Graduated to a 45-90, same bullet, 80 grs. of black, thus my handle. I also was shooting a 300 Win. Mag in 1000 yards matches at the same time. I appreciate the comments but this is far from my first rodeo.

Been shooting muzzleloaders since '75 and I never did get why the "bounce the rod" routine. My neighbor does that and it bugs the crap out of me...lol! Chill, I've always seated the PRB just as you describe except it usually takes two strokes, seat firmly, prime and fire....or cap and fire. I usually shot flinters.

Then why are you hesitating :) Don't think you could go wrong with a fast twist Gibbs.

I never understood bouncing the rod either. Seemed counter productive to me. Better for me with round ball was a nice firm steady push until it seats. Bullets were another matter. For range shooting they went down the bore with just the weight of the rod. I had better luck with a card wad under the bullets and sometimes a felt wad as well depending on the bullet.

[sharps4590]

I'm hesitant because I have a Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter set up for long range shooting and a wonderfully accurate load for it that I haven't shot at distance in over 5 years. I imagine everyone who's helped me shares a similar opinion, a rifle that's set up for long range and accurate isn't a lot of fun at 100 yards. Kinda like my other consumptive hobby, vintage sports cars. It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow.

[charlie b]

LOL, yep.

We lived a couple of places where I was 'stuck' with ranges that were only 100 or 200yds. Not much shooting fun for me.

I gave my last sports car to my daughter. Just no fun to drive a hot car anywhere near the speed limit. Also the reason I stopped riding motorcycles.

[indian joe]

I'm hesitant because I have a Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter set up for long range shooting and a wonderfully accurate load for it that I haven't shot at distance in over 5 years. I imagine everyone who's helped me shares a similar opinion, a rifle that's set up for long range and accurate isn't a lot of fun at 100 yards. Kinda like my other consumptive hobby, vintage sports cars.

It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow.

I like that ....:bigsmyl2:

[charlie b]

PS this kind of thing is why I thought about going back to a cap and ball rifle. Accurate enough at 100yd and not hard on the shoulder.

[sharps4590]

Well, I've talked myself out of it for the reason above. If anyone is interested it is offered by Gun Works in Oregon. I can post a link if anyone wants.

charlie, I've done that and, more or less restricted myself to open sights on my CF rifles. as well. I did just purchase a vintage Schmidt & Bender, 4X scope for my Vierordt double rifle simply because I have the claw mount rings for it. First scope I've used in....I guess since we moved back from Wyoming 17 years ago.

My vintage sports cars are a 1955 MG-TF, a 1956 MG-A and a '74 MG-B. The first two I can drive like I stole 'em and not worry about the speed limit...lol!! The "B" is a lot more modern feeling and I just rebuilt the original HIF, SU carbs and replaced the Weber the PO put on it. The throttle response is better up to 3000-3500 RPM but after that the Weber and SU's are about equal. You'd still have to push it to worry much about the speed limit and a ticket. The "B" also has overdrive so it's comfortable on 4-lane highways. The others...they're just a hoot on our back roads!!! I'd post a picture but I have no photo host since photojunk went south.

[charlie b]

Nice pick in cars!! I was inches away from buying a TC when in high school. The kicker was rust, so did not get it.

Mine were all more modern, Alfa Spider, 240Z's and such. Last wasn't really a sports car, Subaru WRX, modified a bit (>300hp). :) Much more fun on dirt roads :)

I am back to scopes after using open sights for a while. I can get by with a peep, but, only out to 100 or maybe 200yds depending on target. If I shot my Lyman more I'd get a Malcolm scope for it. I just find the recoil a bit tiresome these days. I keep threatening myself to build a round ball rifle. One of these days, maybe :)

PS just looked at the Gun Shop web site. Looks like muzzle loaders are becoming less popular again. There are about double the number of used guns I used to see on there.

[oldracer]

If you want to try "cap and ball" rifles, either make one or buy one that with shoot well out to 40 rods I.E. 220 yards. I bought one a few years ago and the only info was the previous owner won many, many matches with it. I found out much later it seems to have been made by a MR Wilburn Terry also know as Web Terry who holds a lot of records at the NMLRA matches! It also had a Lewis lock and trigger which are about the best you can ever buy! It will do 0.490 round balls in a 2 inch circle at 200 yards when bench shooting. I put a 12 power Unertl scope on it as the barrel was drilled for Unertl mounts at 7.2 inches. I can't shoot it off hand as it weighs 20+ pounds!
John

[sharps4590]

charlie, I had an '81 Alfa Spider the PO had Euro Spec'ed with cams, pistons and I think valves. It still had the Spica mechanical fuel injection. It was pretty quick and I enjoyed it for 9 or 10 years. It became trading fodder for the TF. I just sold my '06 Solstice. Ran out of room and frankly, the oldsters are more fun to drive. I've had several over the years, a 69, Triumph GT-6, a Spitfire, Fiat 124 Spider, an earlier '68 "B" and an MG Midget. I still lust for an Austin Healey 3000-6, BN-7 or BJ-8, either one. Dreams would be a Mercedes 190 or 280....uh-huh, like that's gonna happen.

oldracer, I started with cap locks...in '74 or '75 and either evolved or graduated to flinters, depending on how one views it....lol After a life time of upgrading all my muzzleloaders are now custom, except for my squirrel rifle. 'Course I only have 5, including a real Manton, caplock double gun. NOT Joseph Manton, wouldn't that be sumthin'!!! It's one of the other Manton's, confirmed by one of his descendants. If I could find one I could afford, a Billinghurst 40 rod rifle, as you mentioned, complete with false muzzle and all the other accoutrements would come live with me. Or one of the other makers whose names I've forgotten, like Ned Roberts talks about in his book. The rifle you mention, is it a chunk gun, all barrel with a lock and barely a stock?

Two things I promised myself I'd do when I retired is build me a 6'6", 3/4 wt., bamboo fly rod and an Ohio rifle. The fly rod is finished and a pure "D" delight on the small, spring creeks around here. The rifle is still in the wings. Maybe oughta order a kit for this winter.

[indian joe]

charlie, I had an '81 Alfa Spider the PO had Euro Spec'ed with cams, pistons and I think valves. It still had the Spica mechanical fuel injection. It was pretty quick and I enjoyed it for 9 or 10 years. It became trading fodder for the TF. I just sold my '06 Solstice. Ran out of room and frankly, the oldsters are more fun to drive. I've had several over the years, a 69, Triumph GT-6, a Spitfire, Fiat 124 Spider, an earlier '68 "B" and an MG Midget. I still lust for an Austin Healey 3000-6, BN-7 or BJ-8, either one. Dreams would be a Mercedes 190 or 280....uh-huh, like that's gonna happen.

oldracer, I started with cap locks...in '74 or '75 and either evolved or graduated to flinters, depending on how one views it....lol After a life time of upgrading all my muzzleloaders are now custom, except for my squirrel rifle. 'Course I only have 5, including a real Manton, caplock double gun. NOT Joseph Manton, wouldn't that be sumthin'!!! It's one of the other Manton's, confirmed by one of his descendants. If I could find one I could afford, a Billinghurst 40 rod rifle, as you mentioned, complete with false muzzle and all the other accoutrements would come live with me. Or one of the other makers whose names I've forgotten, like Ned Roberts talks about in his book. The rifle you mention, is it a chunk gun, all barrel with a lock and barely a stock?

Two things I promised myself I'd do when I retired is build me a 6'6", 3/4 wt., bamboo fly rod and an Ohio rifle. The fly rod is finished and a pure "D" delight on the small, spring creeks around here. The rifle is still in the wings. Maybe oughta order a kit for this winter.

Wow ! You fish with your own built split cane flyrod - nothing comes close to a nice cane rod !!!!!!!

[charlie b]

Mine was a '71 Spider. Mechanical fuel injection. The 75's had electronic FI so your seller must have retrofitted his. Ran well but it was eating the 2nd gear syncro and rust was becoming an issue. Sold it and got a 70 240Z. Mistake as I was transferred to Germany. Hard to get parts for a Japanese car over there back in the 70's :)

I fished with a couple cane rods but never warmed up to the 'slower' action on them. I guess I used the modern stuff for too long.

[Don Purcell]

I have the Pedersoli Gibbs .451 and like it. The odd thing is at 100 yards I am just getting patterns as far as groups go. Took it over to Friendship, Indiana many years ago to shoot at the Mini Creedmoor targets to shoot at 500 yards. The patterns at home turned into groups at 500 that would stay in a baseball cap. Go figure. Haven't shot it in almost 15 years, may break it out and work more with it. Hope you enjoy yours.

[indian joe]

Mine was a '71 Spider. Mechanical fuel injection. The 75's had electronic FI so your seller must have retrofitted his. Ran well but it was eating the 2nd gear syncro and rust was becoming an issue. Sold it and got a 70 240Z. Mistake as I was transferred to Germany. Hard to get parts for a Japanese car over there back in the 70's :)

I fished with a couple cane rods but never warmed up to the 'slower' action on them. I guess I used the modern stuff for too long.

We must have used different modern stuff - I like the more brisk action of the cane over fibreglass - old fishing buddy called the glass his snake charmer rod - reckoned you could take on a tiger snake with it and no big deal if you busted it killing the snake - I was never interested in getting that close (to a tiger snake)

[sharps4590]

I better clear up something. I didn't build the bamboo blank, I ordered it from Tufts & Batson in St. Louis. I did everything else. I swore off anything but bamboo for stream fishing about 16-17 years ago and have no regrets....and a fair collection of vintage "Blue Collar" bamboo rods. I've had and still have a couple graphite rods. I use them in ponds and smallish lakes that I think the water is too dirty for my silk lines. But...a pond or lake ain't a stream and graphite ain't bamboo. Most of my graphite rods I gave away. Still have an old Eagle Claw 'glass rod that's pretty good. However, none of them put a smile on my face like the cane stick.

charlie, I believe Alfa used the Spica injection for only 2 years, 80 and 81 or 81 and 82. It was original to the '81 and not retrofitted. As I understand it that is why those are the least two desirable model years. The next year they went to Bosch EFI. I never had any problems with the Spica but, I don't really miss the Alfa like I miss the GT-6...and that was 45 or so years ago!! As with a lot of rifles, I shoulda kept the GT-6.

Don, I didn't get the rifle. I expect I'll regret it but there's other rifles....and/or vintage sports car parts....I need or want more.

[Boz330]

Hello Charlie. Respectfully, It is not the AMPCO nipple.
Both the Platinum lined and the 'other' are one off shop built. The problem with they are worn out by 50 shots is they are wearing out from the first shot. Accuracy degrades a little with each shot from the first. Match shooters (the Gibbs is a match rifle) can not be competitive with less than consistency from the first to the last shot.

There are a lot of reasons that make this true. Too many to go into now.

Mike,
You need to try that Hoff nipple I sent you.

Someone mentioned loads. Mine was 95gr of 1.5 Kick a 1/8 cork wad and a Hoff design PP bullet sized .449.
My loading procedure was wet patch wrapped around a brush, then a dry and a patch lubed with Mobil 1 on a regular jag. Long drop tube with powder, then wad and bullet seated lightly.
I tried both GG and PP. Both shot well but the PP shot a little better. I really liked shooting the Gibbs but as I get older all that jumping up and down gets to be a strain. Lying down and just shooting 10 to 15 rounds is much easier.

Bob

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=sharps4590;4986028]I better clear up something. I didn't build the bamboo blank, I ordered it from Tufts & Batson in St. Louis. I did everything else. I swore off anything but bamboo for stream fishing about 16-17 years ago and have no regrets....and a fair collection of vintage "Blue Collar" bamboo rods. I've had and still have a couple graphite rods. I use them in ponds and smallish lakes that I think the water is too dirty for my silk lines. But...a pond or lake ain't a stream and graphite ain't bamboo. Most of my graphite rods I gave away. Still have an old Eagle Claw 'glass rod that's pretty good. However, none of them put a smile on my face like the cane stick.

ahhhh ya went and spoiled it! :-o me sittin here thinking thats about three steps harder than hammering a barrel out of a hunk of flat iron ---still theres a lot of fine work in makin up a rod from a blank - hook a couple nice ones on a cane stick with dry fly ....satisfaction guaranteed . !

......

[charlie b]

No fiberglass for me. A guy came up and want me to teach him to cast with one. Heavy, slow (8wt so not surprising).

My CF rods are 4wt (8.5'), 5wt (9ft) and 7wt(9ft) depending on where I am fishing. And I like the modern fly lines. On really small streams it makes little difference but on the bigger ones and lakes it does for me.

Sharps, my 71 also had the SPICA mechanical FI and 1750cc. A year or two after that they went to a 2L motor and electronic FI. I wanted one of the GT-6's but had a family back then so could not afford it. Almost got another spider until the owner let it known the engine had spun a bearing and their fix was to simply remove that bearing from the engine :shock:

[sharps4590]

Sorry Joe...but planing a blank is beyond my pay grade...to say nothing of my knowledge and skill level. I have restored several vintage bamboo rods and rather enjoy that.
Seems mostly South Bend's and one Heddon. South Bend made some nice rods!

Well charlie, there's lots of 3 cylinder engines out there....my little Suzuki Carry has one......but it started that way...[smilie=1: I've got 4's, 5's, several 6's and one 7 wt. bamboo rods. Heddon, a few South Bends, a Montague and a couple of the better Horrocks & Ibbotson's, A Madison Far and Fine by Orvis and a few sort of custom rods. Sort of in that a couple guys went into business and didn't make it so they sold some rods for pretty decent prices and I got a couple. As good as the rods feel marketing must have been their difficulty in a difficult business.

# 1 & #2 plugs on my TF have been fouling out for a while. Had it out this morning, jet is leaking out the bottom and the needle and jet are worn worn on the front carb. Get to rebuild 2 more SU's now. Ah well, it'll be right and won't leak or foul plugs.

Good conversation!!!!

[charlie b]

Just all about having fun.

Rebuilding old rods is fun. I thought about making one from scratch, but never went forward with it. That before I refinished one. The refinishing was touchy enough that I was glad I didn't try making one. The good thing about refinishing one is you can change what weight it is with some careful planing or sanding.

That Spider still ran on 4cyl, it just didn't have a #2 bearing. They felt that having 4 bearings was enough and I'd agree if not pushed hard. The other side of that is why did it spin the bearing and how much was the engine abused before that.

I just went through another car purchase last month and the urge for another sports car was strong. But, I needed something that would get me into some more remote fishing locations so I settled on a compact SUV instead. Not flashy but it does the job.

Short story. The reason I got the new car is also related to fishing. I was on my way to go fishing early one morning. Got up in the mountains before sunrise. BAM!!! Hit an elk. Totaled the car but all the safety stuff in it worked great and I just had a scrape/bruise on my left ankle.

[charlie b]

Rebuilding carbs is fun isn't it :)

I had a Moto Guzzi T5 (850cc) that I put a lot of miles on. Rebuilt the carbs on it at the 50,000mi mark. New rings on the pistons, adjusted valves, replaced rear end gearbox, rewired it when I put in a new alternator, etc, etc. Lots of periodic maintenance on those things.

[BPJONES]

Rebuilding carbs is fun isn't it :)

I had a Moto Guzzi T5 (850cc) that I put a lot of miles on. Rebuilt the carbs on it at the 50,000mi mark. New rings on the pistons, adjusted valves, replaced rear end gearbox, rewired it when I put in a new alternator, etc, etc. Lots of periodic maintenance on those things.

That's only getting broken in. I have an 81 Honda Silverwing Interstate 500 cc with 206,000 miles on it, lol.

[charlie b]

You are right. It had over 100,000 miles on it a few years later. It was my last motorcycle too. Got rid of it just after I retired for good.

[sharps4590]

For me, rebuilding SU's and Stromberg's is rather enjoyable. I will never, ever, touch another Holley or Quadrajet as long as I live....but the odds of that happening are as remote as me winning the lottery.

When I retired I kept the best of my work trucks and with only 126K on it, I suspect it will see me through....although I do know where there is a nicely restored Morris 1/4 ton pick-up that would satisfy my pick up/hunting/fishing vehicle needs....but Momma has threatened to slit my scrotum with a dull deer antler if I make any moves to acquire it....and I don't think my Husky would approve. He thinks the pick-up is his.

[charlie b]

I really hated 4bbl carbs of almost any kind. A bad solution for big power from huge engines on the street.

SU's and the various motorcycle carbs were simple to work on. Sync work could be a bit frustrating if you had 4 to do.

I got rid of my last pick up a few years ago. We no longer live in the country, don't hunt anymore, and don't have a fifth wheel to haul around so no reason to have one. Don't miss the size of them or the relatively poor gas mileage.

[sharps4590]

Yeah, sometimes I felt as if I needed 2-4 sets of eyes just to watch the linkage.

We still live in the country, no longer raise beef but still garden on a fair sized scale. Haven't hunted off the place since we moved back from Wyoming 17 years ago, never had a 5th wheel...or any other camper. Don't fish like I used to....don't do a LOT of things like I used to!!! For no more than my pick-up gets driven mileage is immaterial but, it does get about 22 mpg. Not bad for a small V-8. It's as good or better as any of my MG's...lol

I hate to be without something I need. I don't use the PU a lot but when I need one, I need one. Kinda like my oxy/acetylene torch. I don't use it one time in three years, usually but, it's been paid for for decades, tanks are near full, doesn't eat when not in use....and I'm not selling it. Time was I used it a lot!!

[charlie b]

Yeah, that was how I ran when we lived out of town. Truck, 2 cars and 2 motorcycles, three trailers. And wife didn't drive much. Tools enough to fill a garage and do major projects.

When I retired we decided to go full time in an RV. We had one for years that we used for vacation travel. So, when we moved into the big fifth wheel we downsized dramatically. Sold off almost all the tools (including a medium size vertical mill, 12x36 lathe, arc and gas welders) all the extra vehicles and trailers, all the furniture, etc. Really found out what minimal was :)

After a few years we are back in a house mostly due to medical conditions. I went back to hand tools for wood and metal work. Except for a drill press. I can't drill a straight hole no matter how many jigs I made up :) Things take longer but I have plenty of time :)

[sharps4590]

Wow!!...talk about a life style change!!! How did you handle that? My mill and lathe aren't nearly as big as you had...and honestly, I know just enough to barely use the ones I have but, I learn something every time I turn on the switch on one of them. 'Course, when you know next to nothing you oughta learn something!!

We've talked about buying a summer home or a winter home but both of us have decided we want to be where our "stuff" is....lol!! That and we've both already had medical conditions. All is well right now, praise God!! However, we've attained the age where the next one could be tomorrow.

I can't drill a straight hole or cut a straight line...and when it comes to wood, I am a master at making 3 things, sawdust, kindlin' and firewood. Beyond that...it's best I stay away from wood. Metal work I don't do too bad.

[charlie b]

ROFLMAO. Father-in-law was a master machinist so learned most from him, but, not nearly enough to be good at it. Just enough to make some stuff as I needed it. We also shared an interest in guns and reloading. He died before he could do one of his dream jobs, a Sharps from scratch. He used to say the milling machine and lathe were just fancy ways of making piles of metal chips. :) And, his father worked in a piano factory keeping all the saw blades sharp. Learned some wood working from him before he passed. I learned to love working with planes and hand saws.

It was a huge change in lifestyle. Also really good that we liked each other's company :) We enjoyed it a lot for a while but complications came into play that made it just not a good thing for us anymore. Thankfully the medical issues have not been major, but, they are ongoing, which means having regular doctor visits. Just emphasized the other things that you give up when living in a small space.

[sharps4590]

I've always looked in awe at those who had a summer and winter home and, as yourself, lived in an RV and were footloose and fancy free. My late mother-in-law and her second husband did the RV thing for several years until Dave passed away. They did keep their house to use as a base. I just don't think we could do either. In years past, planned vacations of more than a week didn't last the whole time before we were ready to come home....lol!! One time we were in South Dakota and had 5-6 dyas left that we'd planned. Got up in the morning and looked at each other. I asked Momma if she was ready to go home and she didn't hesitate with her "yes". I was ready too....lol! We like to travel but evidently in small bites. Ol' homebodies I guess...lol!

If it had an engine, Dad could fix it. From great big 16 cylinder, vertical, HO, diesel generators at the little power plant where he was the Superintendent...of a 3 man crew...to little 2 cycle engines. I'd probably do ok on the big diesel but all 2 cycle engines are demonically possessed.

[charlie b]

"all 2 cycle engines are demonically possessed."

I spit water all over my keyboard :)

Father-in-law was on diesel subs back in his Navy days. He and his engineering crew did a rebuild of the Fairbanks Morse diesels while underway one year (they were past due for overhaul but had to complete a mission). They were opposed piston two strokes, yes, two crankshafts. Apparently it was the only time it was ever attempted and the Captain got kudos for getting it done. I can't imagine doing something like that while bobbing on the surface. He did say when it came time for the touchy stuff (like winching the upper crankshaft in place) the captain would submerge so they weren't being tossed around.

We had already travelled a lot in our smaller fifth wheel, sometimes for a month or more. So, we knew we could do it for at least 'short' periods. We had already decided to sell our house in the country. It was just too big and more maintenance than I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And, if I happened to pass before my wife she would have to sell it anyway. Going to the RV was for the simple reason that we didn't know where we wanted to live. I was in the Army and we lived many places. Kids were in SC and WA. Wife's family in NM, mine in AZ. Friends in NC, MI and NY. So the RV was a way to see all of them and visit some other places we had always wanted to see. It kinda worked. We found where we wanted to live, it just came a lot sooner than we thought :)

[sharps4590]

Subs? Nope, not me, wouldn't happen. All I have for those guys is awe and gobs and gobs of respect.

We used to tent camp and float our Ozark creeks and rivers a lot...back when sleeping on a gravel bar didn't bother me. I think I remember that far back. We neve did do an RV though we talked about it. We also had a 22 ft. sail boat we would stay on for a few days. I suppose that could loosely be considered a type of RV...lol!. I enjoyed that immensely. Sailing is so peaceful....as long as the wind is steady and gentle.

[charlie b]

As far as I am concerned staying on a boat qualifies as an RV :) Probably even more confining and difficult to 'manage'. I don't like open water and never cared for the wave motion much. I fish in boats every now and then but not my favorite thing to do.

We used to tent camp a lot when the kids were little. I grew up tent camping quite a bit. When the kids left we decided to get a small RV and we used it to get away from the heat on weekends. We had some sort of RV off and on for 25 years. I will still go out by myself on fishing trips and I just sleep in the back of my car (small SUV).

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=charlie b;4988530]"all 2 cycle engines are demonically possessed."

I spit water all over my keyboard :)

I woulda too - he's right..........................

[sharps4590]

Yes I am....if I'm the one trying to work on them!! Dad could give one a dirty look and it would run better.

[charlie b]

I am pretty good with them, mostly because I used smaller ones on model airplanes. But, when one gets 'stubborn' I can get quite creative with my language :) Now days I use electric motors in all my models.

[sharps4590]

I'm on a first name basis with the guy at the service counter at the shop I take my 2 cycle's to....:bigsmyl2: Since I started using ethanol free premium our visits have become less frequent. The last time I tried to work on, and when I swore off ever trying to learn, a weed eater went airborne for about 30 feet out the garage door. At that time in my life I have every confidence my language was at least colorful....at worst, downright profane. The wife sarcastically asked if I got it fixed.

[Buckshot]

..............I have a Pedersoli Whitworth, and it is a very fine shooting rifle. But I do not have sights on it for truly long range. I HAVE shot it at relatively largish rocks at lasered ranges of about 600 yards :-) Great fun!

http://www.fototime.com/037950A91DF99C5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/548567BB2A00AA9/standard.jpg

Later on I ordered a English Rigby Sporting rifle 'kit' from Pecatonica River ( http://www.longrifles-pr.com/ ).

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

The rifle kit came with a Green Mountain octagon bbl 34" longm 45 cal / 18" twist. I had them install a breakoff breech and plug, set up for a drip bar.

http://www.fototime.com/BE135D6E73B7ADE/standard.jpg

For a front sight I used a windage adjustable front sight from a Swedish AG42B semi auto rifle. Well I had to adapt it for use on an octagonal barrel. The rear sight had very limited windage adjustment.

http://www.fototime.com/5D3A786C22A881E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/103B7CD70CB7B7A/standard.jpg

I had to make up a new base for the sight to make it removeable, and at the same time have a means to remain upright in a repeatable position for shooting. There is a groove in the base attached to the tang. This allows a plunger to ride in the groove, and to retain the sight in an upright position. Within the sight base is an extractor plunger from an M1 Garand to hold the sight blade in the upright position. If you look VERY CLOSELY you can 'JUST' make out the tip of the plunger in the fixed base on the tang.

http://www.fototime.com/419C86F5587546C/standard.jpg

The tang of the provided break off breech was only about 2" long, which was way too short. I removed it and welded on a longer piece of common piece of 1/2"X 1/8" common 1018 steel, and MiG welded it to the breech. Then finished up it's shape with other well known but unmotorized instruments of metal manglement.

..................Buckshot

[sharps4590]

Buckshot, a dear friend of mine has a Whitworth and the hexagonal mold for it. Could I bother you to ask for your load and the procedure you use for PP'ing the bullet or, if you do? He brought it out to the house and our results were not very good. I've been shooting ML's since the early 70's but literally only PRB's. That Whitworth is a different beast. I tried to apply a little BPC knowledge but that didn't seem to work very well either.

[charlie b]

Beautiful rifle. I love your work on the sights.


I'm on a first name basis with the guy at the service counter at the shop I take my 2 cycle's to....:bigsmyl2: Since I started using ethanol free premium our visits have become less frequent. The last time I tried to work on, and when I swore off ever trying to learn, a weed eater went airborne for about 30 feet out the garage door. At that time in my life I have every confidence my language was at least colorful....at worst, downright profane. The wife sarcastically asked if I got it fixed.

ROFLMAO. When building model airplanes I sometimes get one that frustrates me during the build. When that happens the airplane performs a "flight" into the nearest wall. I've also had tools magically disappear. Has not happened since I retired. :)

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, a dear friend of mine has a Whitworth and the hexagonal mold for it. Could I bother you to ask for your load and the procedure you use for PP'ing the bullet or, if you do? He brought it out to the house and our results were not very good. I've been shooting ML's since the early 70's but literally only PRB's. That Whitworth is a different beast. I tried to apply a little BPC knowledge but that didn't seem to work very well either.

...............You said your friend has "The Hexagonal mould for it". Which mould would that be, as there is/was 3 I'm aware of. When I bought mine there was a company in Tennessee which manufactured a 2 piece/block swaging arrangement. Their instructions were to lay a 50 cal lead bullet into one half, place the other half on top and then put it into a vice to "SWAGE" the hapless cringing fat cylindrical boolit into submission...... I mean 'Hexagonal' shape :-) That was actually no bueno por ca-ca, lemme tell ya. At least, NOT following THEIR rather simplistic instructions.

So, about the easiest way to get a Whitworth shooting, and shooting quite well is to cast some regular boring old 45 caliber (.458") round size slugs, and work from there. You'd cast the slugs for your Whitworth using very soft lead and some tin. I didn't say PURE lead as you'd have to be one REALLY lucky person to happen on to actual real "Pure" lead. So to your very soft lead (And it WOULD be nice to actually know how hard/soft your lead was) you'd likely need to add some tin,, maybe. However I'd simply try it simply using your soft lead to start, as it might just be fine as-is.

Then using a series of Lee type push through (Swaging type) size dies, after lube-sizing to .458", you'd reduce your unassuming projectile to about .454" and try it in the muzzle. I say .454" just to cover bases. My Whitworth likes them to be .452", and so might yours. Mine is a Parker-Hale. Since this isn't a paper patched affair, you'll need to place a card wad down the bore atop the charge, then a 1/8" lube cookie (makeup and thickness subject to modification). Then slide the slug down the barrel. After a few shots you may have to apply a tad of effort to seat. A good starting place is 70.0 grs of 2Fg BP.

For paper patched slugs, I swage them to an OD of .446" and then 2 wraps of 9# paper. This yields an OD of right at .452" they won't 'Fall' down the bbl of their own weight but setting the ramrod on them will carry the slug to the bottom, even after many shots.

http://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

Before and after patching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRBk-1PPzoI This video is fun.

............Buckshot

[sharps4590]

His is an actual mold and his bullets were soft, plumbers lead. Yeah, we're old and have old stuff...lol. If I remember right I think he bought it from Dixie. His rifle is also a Parker Hale. Thank you for the Info. I'll share this with Dave and see if he wants to pursue it.

BTW, your rifles are gorgeous.

And another question. Did you used to make custom sizing dies? If so, I have one or two....but, slap me silly, I don't remember which ones!

Charlie, as with you I don't lose my temper since retiring. Good thing...working on my old MG's can try an old, fat body!

[charlie b]

Yep, I can't slide under my cars anymore either. That was one good thing about 4WD trucks. Plenty of room underneath. Had to have a stepladder to get under the hood :)

All these pretty guns are making me think about building a round ball rifle. Gotta get myself under control here.

[sharps4590]

You just need a jack that goes higher and taller jack stands...:mrgreen:

I was thinking about a lift but I'd need to make my upcoming shop addition a lot taller. I looked at some of those portable lifts but they only go to 4 foot. That would help with a lot of things but you'd be sitting on a stool or one of those mechanics roll away seats for a lot of stuff. I have a friend who has a 2 poster but it's 10 miles away and I probably don't have to mention the right tool would be at my house and he wouldn't have it.

[charlie b]

Lifts are great for working on stuff. I had one for the motorcycles that probably saved my back from many weeks of pain. When I was in the Army I'd use the lifts at the craft shops and they made work a ton easier. I'd save up for a 4 post model if I were to buy one. I've seen a 2 post that fell over when the owner could not figure out where to put the car.

I don't work on the cars anymore. The WRX was my last 'project' car and since then I let someone else do the maintenance. In the long run it is cheaper since I don't end up modifying things :)

[sharps4590]

Heck, on the old stuff just keeping it original and runnin' ain't cheap...that and I am loathe to alter things from original, rifles or cars.

[charlie b]

I am kinda the opposite, at least when it comes to my project vehicles, boats, rvs or guns. They frequently get modified to suit. A few are original, my carry pistols and heirlooms.

[Buckshot]

..............Yes i used to make custom Lee and Lyman size / size-lube dies, HP moulds, and make other odd stuff. I stopped in April of 2016.

.............Buckshot