Heavy Resistance to Sizing After Powder Coatingl

[memtb]

I apologize if this has already been addressed, however, with much reading have failed to find the topic.

I’ve been away from casting for quite some time, getting started again ....also powder coating.

I thoroughly cleaned my Lyman 4500 and dies prior to staring sizing the powder coated bullets. There was high resistance to the down stroke....and promptly broke the bottom off off my Lyman on the return/reverse stroke. Next step...profanities!

I was told on another website, to merely push them all the way through by placing another bullet on the top of the first bullet. This further increased the resistance.....much more bullet surface area in the die. Next failure....promptly broke the “link” that the press handle screws into! Following step.....extreme profanities!

Parts are not available.... so, I manufactured ( pretty crude) a new one piece handle/link assembly!

I have since lubed my die and bullets with Hornady One Shot case lube spray....which has helped quite a bit!

So, has anyone experienced a similar issue with “high resistance” to sizing....and what did you do to remedy?

Thanks to any and all replies....even the ones that insult my intelligence! 😋 memtb

[DHDeal]

Not gonna insult your intelligence here, but what alloy were those bullets? Next, how much are you trying to size them down. To me it sounds like a little of both my questions to you, hard as woodpecker lips alloy and fat bullets.

An example I have was yesterday I sized some .454" before and .456" after PC down to .4525" through a Lee die. As I was also squeezing on a GC, you could really feel them. To more compare apples to apples, I did size 12 in my LAM which included installing the GC (occasionally I'll add lube to a PC'd bullet, but that's a story for another day), and they were tough to size, but not ridiculous. My alloy was 2/3 COWW and 1/3 pure, so it's not a hard alloy. If I were trying a hardball or such alloy I suspect I would have had some fun with it.

I do not think the PC has anything to do with your issue. In my experience it's slick and bullets slide easily with it applied. The One Shot is a trick I use almost every time I size PC bullets as it's easy and there's no down side.

[eveready]

memtb, If you don't size before powder coating try try sizing both before and after powder coating.

[bangerjim]

Never had "resistance" of any kind in the MANY thousands of PC'd boolits I have processed. Never.

I use a single stage Lee press.

As asked, how much were you trying to size down and what is the mix of the alloy? Those two key facts you left out.

banger

[DHDeal]

Tired of editing my earlier post. You can use what you want, but the Lee sizer dies are not expensive and a reloading press is much stronger than a lube sizer. $20 + shipping for a Lee sizer, more or less, and you're there. Don't like the size of the die, then open that rascal up. They are so easy to use and inexpensive enough to not break the bank. One of the true bargains in the reloading world.

[memtb]

Bullet Alloy....straight wheel weights. However, I quenched as they came from the mold! I’ve never quenched before...may need to reconsider this step!

Bullet as Cast, prior to powder coat.... .452” - sizing die .452”. Post powder coating, pre-sizing... unknown, as all have been sized. Bullets were “double coated”....perhaps another mistake!

Thanks Again, for your help! memtb

[memtb]

Tired of editing my earlier post. You can use what you want, but the Lee sizer dies are not expensive and a reloading press is much stronger than a lube sizer. $20 + shipping for a Lee sizer, more or less, and you're there. Don't like the size of the die, then open that rascal up. They are so easy to use and inexpensive enough to not break the bank. One of the true bargains in the reloading world.

Proper/best method to “open-up” the sizing die? memtb

[pastera]

I find that I needed some type of lube to easily size HiTek coated bullets on my Lyman 45 - normally the bullet lube, well, provides the lubrication needed

I've since moved on to a Lee APP for bulk sizing (saving the 45 for wax based lube and GC) - The price is low and even without a bullet feeder it is much faster than the 45. The shorter sizing die reduces the need to lube but it still helps keep the shoulder happy.

[pastera]

Proper/best method to “open-up” the sizing die? memtb

a lathe, lapping compound and adjustable lap.

you can get away with a drill instead of a lathe but the results won't be quite as precise.

https://www.mcmaster.com/lapping-tools/
https://www.gadgetbuilder.com/Lapping.html

[fredj338]

How long did you wait to size? IMO, water dropping is a waste of time if you are baking @ 400 for 20m & then air cooling. I water drop out of the oven. I try to size within a couple days. I have never had issues. I also use a cheap Lee press inverted.

[Dragonheart]

As already mentioned the mass of metal you are trying to move is likely your problem.

But try spraying the PC bullets with case lube. I make my own lube by adding 1 ounce of Lanolin to 12 ounces of 99% alcohol. You can find the alcohol in a 12 ounce bottle at the auto parts store; they use it to remove water from fuel. Liquid Lanolin can be found on line or by heating the solid stuff available at beauty supplies. This makes a big difference even when things are not a problem.

[Conditor22]

Bullet Alloy....straight wheel weights. However, I quenched as they came from the mold! I’ve never quenched before...may need to reconsider this step!

Bullet as Cast, prior to powder coat.... .452” - sizing die .452”. Post powder coating, pre-sizing... unknown, as all have been sized. Bullets were “double coated”....perhaps another mistake!

Thanks Again, for your help! memtb

Quenching before powdercoating gains you almost nothing

https://i.imgur.com/uclR2g1.png

Your alloy was/is probably around 14 bhn, not that much.

How big are the sized boolits?

2 coats of PC can add .002-.004.
sizing down .004 with 14-15 BHN shouldn't be a problem in a NOE or Lee push through sizing die, adding case lube to that and they should go through easily

Dragonheart is talking about the RED bottles of HEET.

I polish the mouth of all my sizing dies. recently I did a light polish inside a sizing die, didn't increase the diameter but made sizing much easier.

[memtb]

Quenched right out of mold.....wait 2 years.....powder coat....from oven immediately to cold water!

On a slightly different scenario.... I powder coated my bullets for my .45-70 yesterday, they’re “mic’ing- out” around . 464”....my die is .459”. These may be a challenge! memtb

[bangerjim]

Why are you quenching? COWW's are the perfect hardness for most shooting just as they are. And adding PC gives you more "protection".

You do realize that the 400+°F bake of the PC pretty much kills all your quenching hardness gains, right?

Don't wast you time. I cast, coat, & cure all in the same day. Perfect for me using a 10-12 alloy.

[Conditor22]

Let me understand this. You quenched the boolits when you cast them 2 years ago. You put 2 coats of PC on them (baking at 400° will take out most of what you gained by quenching then you quenched them again taking you back up to around 23 bhn and your going to shoot them in a 45/70.

WHY? how fast are you going to push them?? you can shoot 6-8 BHN out of a rolling block I normally go around 12 bhn PC'd

I've sized hard boolits down .005 before with lube, if it's to hard on your setup get a sixing die half way inbetwen and size them down in 2 steps.

[memtb]

No rational answer for the quench after casting, as I had never done it in the past. It just seemed that a lot of people were doing it...though that I’d try it. Again, the quench after the powder coat was just something I picked-up reading a few posts about powder coating!

The bullets for the 45-70 will likely be pushed somewhere in the 1700 to 1900 FPS range...depending upon where I find accuracy. The .454” bullets will be run through my S&W 460. I know that when I started casting in the early ‘70’s....I didn’t have any issues like these! Obviously....I’ve got a lot to learn! memtb

[bmortell]

in regards to the opening of lee push though dies, for a die like that where all that matters is the diameter and roundness of the narrowest point i dont think any more advanced technique than sandpaper duck taped to a spinning stick is required to bump it thousandths. a type of die that required perfectly straight parallel walls of even size id want a lathe. or if your opening a lee a lot your basically making a straight section that would probably be crooked by that point.

[charlie b]

I used to modify Lee dies or order custom dies from them.

Now days I use the NOE sizing system and have a selection of inserts. Lee also has that kind of system now for the AP press. If just now starting I'd probably get one of them.

I always size before PC, mainly to seat gas checks or to nose size certain bullets. These are usually lubed with One Shot (the bullets have to be cleaned before PC, I use acetone). Then PC and size again. I never use lube after coating.

I have found that my PC increases diameter between .002" and .003" (shake and bake method). I've never felt the need to use two coats. One is all you need.

If you did two 'thick' coats you were trying to size .004-.006". This is quite a bit. No wonder you were having problems.

Last, I never heat treat or water quench bullets. If I want a harder bullet I use a different alloy. Powder coating makes the alloy for pistols a non-issue.

[clum553946]

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but when I run into a pc’d batch that has heavy resistance, I spray a light coating of Hornady One Shot case lube on the batch, then size them. They go through slicker than a whistle! I use a Star sizer & let them sit for at least a day after sizing before loading them. The Hornady case lube doesn’t affect the powder or primers so they say & I haven’t run into any problems.

[memtb]

clum553946, exactly what I did....which certainly helped. While I haven’t done a lot (OK, almost none) reading about powder coating....I had never seen the issue of heavy resistance discussed while sizing! I thought that perhaps my experiences where the first occurrence in the universe! :( memtb

[memtb]

Thanks to all for all of your insight and good information. I’ve learned quite a bit during this dilemma and through your help!

Now.....to put some of these powder coated Bullets to good use! memtb

[popper]

Polish (cleaning ) the Lee sizer is good idea. Keep on lubing the PCd boolits - doesn't take much. I use BLL (without mineral spirits!). Once you scrape a little PC off a boolit, the rest will scrape too. I size soon after casting, PC when I get around to it. I've gotten a few stuck in the sizer. If it takes that much pressure, the boolit is way distorted anyway. I did use one-shot in a baggie to lube some for sizing and then PCd, it did work OK (asbbt) but prefer not to go that way. Didn't wash them and coating was poor but they shot just OK.

[bmortell]

i used to have heavy resistance during seating. i had described it as trying to smoothly slide rubber on glass. i used to lightly lube them so they would seat easily then later i started pin tumbling cases and did them in corn cob with wax after so my cases weren't grippy to bare pc anymore.
i don't know if this type is what anyone here is referring to as resistance but pc isn't slick against all surfaces apparently, against some things it don't wanna move.

[Carrier]

Quenched right out of mold.....wait 2 years.....powder coat....from oven immediately to cold water!

On a slightly different scenario.... I powder coated my bullets for my .45-70 yesterday, they’re “mic’ing- out” around . 464”....my die is .459”. These may be a challenge! memtb

The 45/70 405 and 500 grain bullets for my Trapdoor are the same as you are seeing and they slide right through either a .459 and a .460 Lee sizer dies like crap through a goose. They are a 30 to 1 lead/ tin mix.

[Dragonheart]

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but when I run into a pc’d batch that has heavy resistance, I spray a light coating of Hornady One Shot case lube on the batch, then size them. They go through slicker than a whistle! I use a Star sizer & let them sit for at least a day after sizing before loading them. The Hornady case lube doesn’t affect the powder or primers so they say & I haven’t run into any problems.

Read #11 post.

[RP]

I may have missed the answer but you stated you cleaned all the lube out of you sizer die is the die smooth or maybe since its been sitting awhile has gotten a little rust ? Nice smooth surface makes a difference just thinking out loud.

[memtb]

RP, Thanks! That would be a distinct possibility, in a different scenario. However, this was a new sizing die, as I’ve just started with the 0.459” bullets. The die still had the factory light oil on it. I cleaned it, making sure that it was free of any machining debris.

However, your post may have provided the answer....The die was clean....maybe too clean. This was “very” likely the problem! I think that I’ll be a little embarrassed and perhaps a bit angry now! :oops: :roll: memtb

[Huskerguy]

I have run into this but for a different reason. When I first got into PCing I read that many people sized first, PCed and then sized again. I tried that for some 38 SWC using a Lee sizer at .358 and no problem. I eventually quit doing that and went to coating and then sizing as soon as possible before the powder became harder.

I was helping a friend with some bullets and we were sizing before PC and we kept getting bullets stuck. Lee doesn't recommend sizing with nothing on the bullets as the lead will build up on the die, makes sense. After battling getting that stuck bullet out of the Lee sizers, I didn't try that again. If the mold is dropping way too big, I would PC and then size twice if it is that drastic. Of course then you would need two different sizers.

My experience is the Lee sizers tend to run a little small. They will custom size them or you can send yours in and they will modify it to get exactly what you want. I have tried a dowel and some fine paper with not much luck so far. Need to get back to to that project.

[Dragonheart]

If you want to polish out a die use green compound it will remove fine scratches will bring out a high shine, follow up up with yellow and it will go to mirror shine. If you want to open a die up as much as several thousands spin it on a lathe and use diamond paste on a wood dowel.

[gnappi]

I like sizing first in my star sizer... I' m lefty and can "feel" the extra resistance of as cast and pc'd later with my weaker right arm. I found the specially made PC only shorter dies from Magna and hope they will be all they claim to be.

[memtb]

gnappi, I don’t have a Star Sizer, and I’m starting to think that I may be in the minority. Once you’ve “critiqued” those Magna dies, give us your opinion .....inquiring minds! :smile: memtb

[DocSavage]

Long before PC back in the 80s I had problems sizing a Lyman 158 gr 357 mag semi wadcutter,Lyman sizer and die. Snapped the handle off the sizer. Combo of undersize die and monotype. Bought the equipment off a buddy who married an Engish woman and moved to Great Britain. Die was marked .358 and was .355 trying to size bullets that were .359 as cast. Thought I was going to snap the sizer off the bench.

[dverna]

Do not beat yourself up! We learn from our mistakes.

I have learned not to force things after breading a few items. I do not have a lot of patience and that is not a good thing when reloading or working with machines. Now, it I need to force something, I stop and try to figure out what the heck is going on.

[Dragonheart]

I can't say I have noticed any extra effort needed when I size, of course I use my right index finger to push the button mainly because it is most convenient.
268074

[gnappi]

gnappi, I don’t have a Star Sizer, and I’m starting to think that I may be in the minority. Once you’ve “critiqued” those Magna dies, give us your opinion .....inquiring minds! :smile: memtb

Well, I am holding off going into production with the new .401 die. My Mitutoyo Vernier and micrometer (not toys, machine shop grade instruments) both show they size to .400". I'm going to call them tomorrow.

[memtb]

Well, I am holding off going into production with the new .401 die. My Mitutoyo Vernier and micrometer (not toys, machine shop grade instruments) both show they size to .400". I'm going to call them tomorrow.

That would be pretty disappointing, you purchase what you think to be precision, quality dies...and they’re not as advertised. Granted, it’s only 0.001”, but that’s “not” what you wanted! memtb

[gnappi]

That would be pretty disappointing, you purchase what you think to be precision, quality dies...and they’re not as advertised. Granted, it’s only 0.001”, but that’s “not” what you wanted! memtb

Well, this was bothering me a LOT so before calling I removed the .401 die, installed my .355, .357 and .358 genuine Star dies, and I'd NEVER have believed it but all of them measure .001" smaller than they're marked. So, I can no longer trust my Mitutoyo gauges, or I can build in a +.001" fudge factor or buy new.

[memtb]

gnappi, while not the perfect scenario....at least you have consistency! :) memtb

[Dragonheart]

Well, this was bothering me a LOT so before calling I removed the .401 die, installed my .355, .357 and .358 genuine Star dies, and I'd NEVER have believed it but all of them measure .001" smaller than they're marked. So, I can no longer trust my Mitutoyo gauges, or I can build in a +.001" fudge factor or buy new.

Since lead has virtually no springback, any would have to be attributed to other elements, but in all I don't think anyone else has reported any problems with the typical alloys. I use Starrett Micrometers, but I too have always believed the Mitutoyo to produce quality gauges, but any gauge can be off. I also have believed Star to make accurate dies, so? You might want to check your micrometer with an end bar: Mitutoyo 167-141 Μm Standard Bar 1" off Amazon for about $21 or anything else with a known value.

[gnappi]

Good idea

[Baffled]

Hobbies! This is where man meets ignorance, thank the Lord for the IGAO ( I got an opinion )

First off I have yet to clean my size dies. I have hit the bee's wax, Lee alloy lube, case sizing lube, and just plain dry. I also run bullets from .309 to .452. I have found the mix of 10part drug store alcohol cut to 1 part RCBS case lube2 in a small squirt bottle works great. lately I have taken to cutting a couple squirts of this and Lee resize lube (Large pea size blob) and q-tip painting just the lube groove/bands part of the bullet. It dries quick and aids in sticky issues, I figure it has to help lube the bullet down the barrel as well. After all I am using HF Matte Black powder for now. Kids tossed out my red, loved that powder.

I use the #5 recycle tub (sour cream tub) does enough bullets to cover my tray. Dump from there to a quart size pot sifter, couple shakes to lose the loose powder and dump on oven pan atop a silicone pad. Bake 12-20 minutes and use this as my timer to be shaking up another tub of bullets to be ready. Once I hit my time mark I pull out the tray and dump mat/bullets all into 5 gallon cat litter bucket. In 5 minutes I pull them out and dump atop the porch table so they can dry off. I just repeat the process. Does this process work ?? tho 5,000 bullets later ... I can honestly say it does not hurt. My look at the process...

I use ANYTHING I can get my hands on for lead... range drops, battery clamps, roof vent shielding, wheel weights (more later), hammer heads, fish weights, ... literally anything lead. Would love me a 900lb keel from sailboat :). I also salvage brass, copper, steel and exchange that for lead 200lb steel normally get me 20lb lead. Now that said, I have run into a BUCKET LOAD of issues with my lead... too hot, too cold, (get a thermometer) temp does play a part in retaining the metals that harden lead. If you use wheel weights there is a plethora of weights out there take a 2 penny nail and fridge magnet with you ... if you cannot scratch it or a magnet clings to it ... don't toss it in the pot. These normally will be flagged as ZN or FE denoting zinc or iron. You may see some zinc melt and will make your lead unusable till you get a couple good skims out of your lead. When skimming and melting I will toss half a tea candle into the lead as a flux. Once it ignites, and it will scare you, you can hold your molds over the flames to get them good and sooty to work as a release agent for the bullets. Once it is black is all you need and when I see the shiny of the mold come through again I re-soot them and press on... I also shuffle 2 molds say .356 and .401 giving each mold a second to cool down... IMPORTANT note: A TOO HOT mold can drop bullets up to 0.002 larger than stated. What others were saying, a larger bullet will cause issue in the molds and some form of lube such as when case sizing is needed to grease the works. Of all my casts and problems with bullets... it is when I let them get hot enough to literally HISS when dropped in water that I over sized bullets. I drop .312 as I shoot Nagant and 7.7Jap, I also size these to .309. anything +/- 0.001 from mold works fine in my dirty Lee size die. Periodically I get a random series of drops .315+, not truly random. I get some rogue tag of lead between the plates and it boogers up everything and one of those bullets ends up in the mix rather than back in the pot. My looks at lead...

So now that we have arrived here what have we learned so far... do what works for you and expect some flaws. All flaws are people oriented, so learn from the process and make changes. All of us here are just really sounding boards for the truth... We all have one of those days :) !!

I mass melt on a coleman stove with a 3qt iron pot. I use a mini corn muffin iron mold, each corn is 1.5 dippers of lead. These small corns can be dropped about 5 at a time into the small series of lead smelters. At this point I also cast whatever bullets I am low on at the time. I keep my furnace in a 18" tool box, leaving room for about 20 or so corn bars. I have a second box that holds the rest of the corns in the shed. I am a few hundred pounds into casting at this point, scrounging roughly 50lbs of lead every weekend. Cook your lead around 700F you should do fine. In my small pot this is just hot enough to keep lead melted, a stiff breeze over pot 10-15mph will create a minor skimming of partial solidification. The larger pot of iron does not get this effect.
Example of .312 cast and .309 resize ... HF Red and Matte Black

269211269212

[memtb]

Thanks Baffled, Interesting and informative! I’ll try and take advantage of some of the points you mentioned. I don’t think there’s such a thing as too much info! Even when attempting to learn from others successes and failures.....I still make my share! memtb

[Alan in Vermont]

I just did a bunch of boolits with shake-n-bake, several calibers and things went fine until I tried to size some Lee .401, 175 gr. TC. They would no go through the Star with any reasonable amount of force. The last batch had been 358429s which went through just fine. When I swapped out the 358 for the .401 apparently I put the .358 back in the machine. Small wonder the .401 boolits wouldn't fit through the 358 die. DUH!!

Swapped in the correct diameter sizer and all was right in the world again.

[memtb]

Alan.....and they say size doesn’t matter! :grin: Actually, I’m fully capable of doing similar.....so, I double-checked! memtb