Unknown 45 cal

[BPJONES]

Gooday everyone. I just picked up this muzzleloader. It's 45 caliber with a 39" barrel. The bore is very nice and barely a mark in the wood. The front lock screw is missing though so will have to obtain one. All the screws are engraved. There are no markings on it except for the lock says "Warranted" on it. I was just wondering if, from the pics, anyone might be able to identify who's kit this was?
https://i.imgur.com/oXEb5EQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PQfXMLx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KyJ5HjL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bURcxPb.jpg

[pietro]

.

FWIW, it doesn't look like any kit gun I've ever seen - IMO it looks like a gennie or a newer custom-built rifle.

I think the "Warranted" marking on the lock, being a vintage phrase, makes the lock (at least) seem to be a gennie - which could also have been added to a custom build.

I've also never come across a kit gun with a barrel that long - but I've led a sheltered life.. ;)

Have you removed the stock and checked a few places for a maker ?

If you haven't already done so, the usual suspects are:

* The bottom of the barrel
* The inside of the lock plate
* Under the butt plate
* Inside the barrel channel.

In any event, IMHO it's certainly a good-looking long rifle - Congrats ! :2_high5:


.

[BPJONES]

No, I haven't removed the barrel yet. Guess that will be my next step. I wondered about it being a newer build using a vintage/antique lock. I had the lock out and the internals look very nice.

EDIT: I just removed the barrel. Nothing stamped into the wood anywhere. The bottom of the barrel is stamped G.R.R. and 50 caliber so it is not 45 as thought. Would the G.R.R. be for Green River Rifle Works? There is no W after the last R that I can see. No address either. No serial number so maybe an early Green River kit gun with a vintage or antique lock?
https://i.imgur.com/QtGPlsy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ov89C00.jpg

[mooman76]

Those stamps aren't done by a professional company. Maybe the gunsmith or person that built the rifles initials.

[arcticap]

There's a lot of info. about GRRW guns on this site. --->>> https://grrw.org
Each article & page provides more detailed info. --->>> https://grrw.org/basic-grrw-gun-collection/
There photos of lock construction and dates of certain of features. --->>> https://grrw.org/leman-trade-rifle/

Some barrels were made by Douglas, others by GRRW.
The ads state that the barrels had 7 groove rifling, does yours?
And then I wonder if all of the models are shown, or if some builders mixed and matched their own parts based on their skill level, or did some swap barrels or locks.

One wouldn't think that anyone would rebarrel a gun and add iD stamps to try to counterfeit a GRRW.
It seems more likely that GRRW left out a letter from their stamp, or the missing letter denotes something to the collector, or would mean something to a company employee about the gun.

Here's a .50 Leman with a cheek piece that's more like yours, and different from some of the GRRW website photos. --->>> https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/muzzleloading-rifles---modern---replica-percussion/green-river-rifle-works---grrw----50-cal--leman-indian-rifle-serial-number-152-.cfm?gun_id=100514102

[mooman76]

Try posting here https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ There is a wealth of knowledge there.

[Beerd]

Numrich Arms "Minute Man"
..

[BPJONES]

I count 8 grooves. It sure looks like a minute man but there is no marking at all of Numrich Arms or Hopkins & Allen.

[mooman76]

It could have been defarbed. Some people like to remove the markings to make it look more authintic.

[mooman76]

It could have been defarbed. Some people like to remove the markings to make it look more authentic. That would also sort of explain the poorly done markings under the barrel where they don't show.

[BPJONES]

Regarding the markings. The gun was listed as 45 caliber. The marking on the barrel says 50 caliber. The bore looked small to me for 50 caliber. I cannot get my 50 caliber bore light down the bore. So I tried a .490 ball. It will not go in. So I measured. It is 45 caliber so I don't know what the heck is going on with the 50 caliber stamping.
I looked on Numrich. The lockplate they show for the minuteman looks like mine and says Warranted, at least by the photo they show. However, the trigger assy. doesn't show an adjustment screw and the lock bolt they show is different. But maybe there were changes in different years. Or someone added personal touches after acquiring it.

[LAGS]

Somebody may have had the barrel Relined at some point to .45 from .50

[BPJONES]

I had more time to pay attention to this muzzleloader. As far as I'm concerned, somebody butchered it. Looks like the barrel tenons have been removed and holes were drilled through the bottom of the barrel for the retaining pins which are now just bent nails. I don't know if the inlays at the muzzle were for looks or if they are hiding something. It looks like the muzzle has been recently recrowned (or something done to it) which likely is explaining why I can't get a .490 ball to go in. The black marks on the muzzle I put there when counting the grooves. I am going to contact the auction house this came from but I might as well wish in one hand and you know what in the other.
https://i.imgur.com/Ff0yoIH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/olGpeLj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/moGpkVG.jpg

[mooman76]

That is odd. Sounds very amaturish gunsmithing. If you get stuck with it and want to shoot it, I would stet up a heavy charge like 2-3 x max charge and set the gun in a tire or something so you can pull the trigger with a string, from a safe distance. If it can take that then should be safe to shoot lighter loads.

[Ozark mike]

Looks like it got a liner put in it

[BPJONES]

Looks like it got a liner put in it

But why does the bore look like one would expect of a gun it's age yet the crown looks nice and shiny like it has been very recently worked on?
I'm quite likely stuck with the gun so yes, I will tie it down and fire it.

[Beerd]

definitely Numrich Minuteman.
The goofy breechplug, holes drilled thru the barrel for retaining pins, patch box & side plate design, folded sheet brass butt plate; all standard for the model. Someone added the heart inlay, replaced the trigger and messed with the barrel.
..

[bedbugbilly]

It's been a lot of years and I can't remember - did the "Minute Man" have a 1 piece stock or was the forearm 2 piece? Looking at this rifle, I'm wondering if it was restocked at on time and dresses up a little? The barrel stamping versus the bore is a conundrum but who knows? The barrel pins thru the barrel was done on a number of "production" guns - have seen it on everything from H & A under hammers with forearms, Mowery rifles, etc.

The bore looks decent and o real, the rifle has a pleasant appearance. 45 caliber a nice target bore and in some states the minimum for deer hunting. I wouldn't kick it out for eating crackers in bed. I'd take a look at the barrel pin locations in the barrel to insure they are not into there and if they look good, proof the barrel with a double charge/double ball and if all is good, shoot the heck out of it and enjoy it. If my chance the barrel is a Numrich, bear in mind that many of the Numrich barrels had "tight bores". Numrich barrels are usually marked but if someone restocked this, they may have drawled the markings off and stamped the barrel as it now is. I have had two different H & A under hammers though the years - both with tight .45 bores. No big deal - if it is, try a .440 with thinner patch or look for a .437 round ball mold. You run across them once in a while - I have had Lyman .437 molds which worked well in a tighter .45 bore.

Let us know if you shoot it and how it shoots.

[Edward]

I owned a minute man kit and when down to pick the stock myself probably back in the late 70"s and it was definitely a one piece stock . And also an under hammer and your right about a tite bore /Ed

[BPJONES]

I took a look at the pin locations. It does not appear that they would cause any problems safety concern wise. And yes, I guess the pin holes through the barrel is how it was made as there are no mortise holes in the barrel channel for tenons. So who knows, maybe it's a shooter!!. I thought I had some 45 caliber balls but I don't so will have to pick some up. Thanks guys. Now I know what it is.