1917 Enfield POA change at 100 yards from from 150 grain bullet to a heavier pill?

[Tripplebeards]

I haven’t shot my 1917 since last year with some random test loads. I had some Sierra 150 grain game King bullets laying around I tried on deer years ago and was less then impressed out of my 7600. No exits or bloods trails with right behind the shoulder, heart and lung shots. Both deer ran a good 75 yards with zero blood and piled up. Both bullets I found shattered into little fragments on the far shoulders. I figured they would make good plinking bullets fro my enfield. I loaded them up with 56 or 57 grains of H4350 if I remember. I’ll have to dig up the Plinking load. I sighted the gun in with the load as you can see...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386520-2nd-time-to-the-range-today-with-my-M1917-it-shot-SUB-MOA-with-irons!!!

Well, I’d like to change bullets to use for deer hunting. My question is how much will my POA change at 100 yards if I goto a 165 or 180 grain bullet? I can always load up a 150 grain Remington core loct or Nosler ballistic tip at the same velocity and see if I’m still spot on worse case scenario. I figured if I’m hitting the X or close to it with 150 grain bullets with my peep slid all the way down I would like to keep things simple and not have to adjust my peep. Any suggestions or words or wisdom?

[Mk42gunner]

I think each rifle is a law unto itself, so you will probably have to try whatever load you settle on to see.

For what its worth, I think the only thing I ever shot through my as issued M1917 when I had it was either M2 ball or 150 grain factory loads.

I have killed quite a few Missouri Whitetails with 150 grain factory loads, usually Winchester Power Points, but there may have been a few Remington PSP's, and never had one go to pieces like what you are describing. Maybe a bad lot of bullets???

Good luck

Robert

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Reading the previous post that you linked to, lots of questions arise: Are you using the tape/hole on your glasses this time around? And, what about when you're hunting? Are you going to use the same H4350 load, or are you going to adjust it because of the heavier bullet weight. If the same, I would expect a 2-3" drop at 100 yds. which would put you very close to dead on; but if you're going to change the load then all bets are off. You really need to settle on the load, and how you're going to sight the rifle in the field, make sure you're zeroed before hunting.

[Tripplebeards]

With the “taped pin hole” removed my POA is dead on at 100 yards...or about a 1/4” low. I’m going to try and round up some 150 grain Remington PSP to load up with the same load and see how they group. After the 150 grain Sierra Game kings did what they did I’m not going to give them a second chance.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m going to load up some random load 165 and 180 grain bullets along with some more of the 150 grain Sierra pro hunters and see where the POA impacts at 100 yards. I have some 180 grain core locts, 180 grain and 165 grain Nosler ballistic tips to try. The rest of my .308 stuff are premium bullets for my 300RUM so I’ll leave those sit. I do have a box of 180 grain TSX I can burn through. I’ll never use an all copper bullet for hunting. I’d use the pro hunters but shot a few deer with them and wasn’t impressed. I had two deer in a row that the bullet blew up on the far side leg bone and never exited. No blood trail and and both deer went about 60 to 75 yards before dropping. Heart and lungs hit on both deer. Never shot a bullet in an 06’ that never had a pass through till the 150 grain Sierra pro hunters. Even 125 grain Nosler ballistic tips pass through and brake bone. Probably a defective box but that’s enough for me to never shoot a deer with them again. I guess I’ll use the rest of the box for plinking.

[turtlezx]

a deer running 60 to 100 yards isnt bad. with the speed a deer runs thats only alive for 10 seconds!!

how much faster do you want them dead??
game kings are hollow points so there gonna blow up

[sghart3578]

I have tried to estimate this myself in different scenarios with ballistic tables, ballistic calculators, etc. They were never close.

Now, when I want to document load trajectories, I go to one specific range in my area and dope it out. I zero the gun at whatever distance I have chosen, then set targets at different intervals and check POI.

Sometimes the results are close to the Hornady ballistic calculator, sometimes they are not.

What I'm saying is that if you want to be sure then you will have to actually shoot and see.


Steve in N CA

[Tripplebeards]

a deer running 60 to 100 yards isnt bad. with the speed a deer runs thats only alive for 10 seconds!!

how much faster do you want them dead??
game kings are hollow points so there gonna blow up

The game king I’m referring to is the 150 grain soft point boat tail. Part number #2125. No exit and no blood bothers me more than running after the shot and 60 to a 100 yards puts the deer on my neighbors property and their tag on my deer. There are a lot better bullet options out there that I’ve tried over the years that brake bones instead of stopping on them and exit every time and literally will put a deer down on the spot or within a few feet out of an 06’. I’ve read a lot of similar experiences with the #2125 the net. Sounds like they are very soft. Im site I’ll switch over to a core loct. I’m a half a century old and have shot an average of 3 to 6 deer a year or more since I’ve been 12 with 180 grain core locts. I can count on one hand how many didn’t drop on the spot. I’m sure my POA will be off no matter what I switch to and will have to zero my rifle back in to what ever bullet I chose to replace it with.

[Adam Helmer]

I have tried to estimate this myself in different scenarios with ballistic tables, ballistic calculators, etc. They were never close.

Now, when I want to document load trajectories, I go to one specific range in my area and dope it out. I zero the gun at whatever distance I have chosen, then set targets at different intervals and check POI.

Sometimes the results are close to the Hornady ballistic calculator, sometimes they are not.

What I'm saying is that if you want to be sure then you will have to actually shoot and see.


Steve in N CA
Steve,

You nailed it! In order to know where a rifle shoots one has to go to the bench with binocs or spotting scope and shoot.

Adam

[charlie b]

I agree, but, you can save yourself some time and ammo by using a ballistic calculator to tell you where the POI will be ahead of time. I do this all the time when changing loads. It at least gets me on paper with the first shot, then can make the adjustments to center at each range.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

The difference between the 150gn and 180gn will only be 2 or 3 inches at 200yds if you load to factory velocities.

[Tripplebeards]

I agree, but, you can save yourself some time and ammo by using a ballistic calculator to tell you where the POI will be ahead of time. I do this all the time when changing loads. It at least gets me on paper with the first shot, then can make the adjustments to center at each range.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

The difference between the 150gn and 180gn will only be 2 or 3 inches at 200yds if you load to factory velocities.

I used a Nikons ballistic chart to figure out about the same POI When I loaded up my 165 and 180 grain loads to test. Compared to my 150’s. I will see how close they are to the 150’s. I did talk to Sierra yesterday. The ballistic technician told me thst was quite common for the #2125 unless I slowed it WAY down one shot my deer at extremely long range. I’ll have to get my hands on some 150 grain core locts and 150 grain ballistic tips to try.

[Ozark mike]

Food for thought
Rifle 1895gs 45-70
500 grain lee rnfp .461 52 grains of h322
500 grain acurate wfn .459 40 grains of h322
Heres the kicker the wfn actually shot close to a foot higher @ 100 yards with less powder
Im still lining this load out hope to have some more testing done this week

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks, I have had guns shoot higher with jacketed heavier projectiles moving at slower velocity when testing as well. I’m hoping since my 150’s are about a 1/4” or so low that my 100 FPS slower 165’s are about an inch high and don’t veer to the left and right...or I’ll just have to get out my sight pusher. That was the original thought process. When I get to the range I’ll see far off my idea was.

I know when I ladder test using the same cast boolit for accuracy testing the higher the powder charge and Increase in velocity the higher it climbs on paper. My groups also end up grouping to the left or right at higher charges. I normally try to zero my gun in on the starting charge at 100 yards and by the time I get to max loading I’m about a good 3” to 4” Plus high every time using my 44 mag, 450 BM, and 35 Rem rifles.

[Three44s]

My experience is that it’s rare when you can pre-predict point of impact between load changes. And a load change can be as minor as a change in primers, much less changing bullets or their weights.

Now sometimes the loads POI will settle in fairly close as you go up towards the established upper pressure limits for a cartridge but not always.

I guess I am pretty cavalier about “just shoot the darn thing” since I can shoot just yards from my home for 270 degrees around it and most any reasonable distance, so I forget that most folks have to go to great lengths to test their loads. If I had to suffer through what many of you have to go through, I would go batty!

I get flustered because the weather ain’t perfect at my “lead bank” ......

Three44s

[Tripplebeards]

I live in town so I’d get locked up. My hunting property and shooting range are about 7 miles away from each other which are both about 15/20 minutes or so from town. I need to make a range on my property one day. I just don’t want to spook the deer for bow hunting this time of year blasting away on my property.

[charlie b]

I used to shoot on my father-in-law's property. We'd go in the shop and load some ammo, go out and shoot it, then make adjustments to the load. Rinse and repeat. Could use up a weekend easy. I am still a bit jealous of those who can do that.

Now days the range is nicer but it is about 40min from the house. Takes a bit of planning to get ready. The advantage is there are 100, 300 and 1000yd ranges to work with. Got me hooked on longer range shooting.

[GooseGestapo]

I see little difference in impacts between 150gr and 165gr bullets through my P17. It’s sighted for the 150’s. Switching to a 165 moves impact approximately 1” to right. It takes so little movement of the front sight I don’t bother moving it.

My experience with the Sierra GK’s is contrary to yours. I suggest you didn’t hit the deer where you thought you did. I do prefer the ProHunter flat base to 300yds as they tend to be slightly more accurate. Also hold together better. I suggest you try the Hornady Interloks. They work as advertised and are slightly cheaper than Sierras.

[Walks]

What's wrong with the Nosler Partition ? My family used them for years.
Sierra's for practice & Deer Hunting, Nosler's for Elk hunting.
I have 2 M1917's, one is a as-issued. The other is Semi-sporterized in .257Rob'ts. The bolt stop, mag box and chamber were made to fit the Remington 117gr Round Nose Load. So extremely short throat. Shoot either Factory ammo or Hornady 117gr RN.
The M1917 "stk" front sight was "cut" for 150gr SP at 2700fps, POI & POA coincide at 100yrds. A 200gr SPBT at 2400fps will strike 3 1/2" at 100yrds.
The Sierra Bullets have always worked well for me & mine. Never had one come apart as you describe.

[Tripplebeards]

I see little difference in impacts between 150gr and 165gr bullets through my P17. It’s sighted for the 150’s. Switching to a 165 moves impact approximately 1” to right. It takes so little movement of the front sight I don’t bother moving it.

My experience with the Sierra GK’s is contrary to yours. I suggest you didn’t hit the deer where you thought you did. I do prefer the ProHunter flat base to 300yds as they tend to be slightly more accurate. Also hold together better. I suggest you try the Hornady Interloks. They work as advertised and are slightly cheaper than Sierras.


The deer I shot was 35/45 yards away. I had the bullet loaded at a max book load. My load book said it was pushing approx or a little over 3,000 FPS. To fast with to fragile of a bullet...right from the Sierra service tech’s mouth. He said he has seen it many of times. When I field dressed the deer it’s heart had a bullet hole poked through it and the bullet stopped and fragmented on the far shoulder with not doing any damage to the leg bone. It’s like it went in and made a pencil size wound cavity till it hit leg bone and disintegrated with very little damage. I asked Sierra if they wanted the rest of them back to test but was told no because it was not an uncommon scenario with that 150 grain bullet at close range pushed fast. I was told to slow the velocity WAY down or shoot deer at ALOT further ranges (300 plus yards I was told by Serra’s ballistic technician) so the bullet will have lost enough velocity to hold together enough to penetrate deeper. He also told me I was better off with a their 165 or 180 grain offering so I would get pass throughs.

[KCSO]

You won't know till you shoot them side by side. I have shot 270s that would group everything from 100 to 160 into a 2 " group at 100 yards to a 308 that would throw 180s 6 " off of the 150 group at 100 yards. There is no easy answer as it depends on the gun the barrel weight and the bedding. This is where you need trigger time.

[TCLouis]

Until you shoot the new bullet/powder/velocity you have NO idea what may be on paper/in the field.

I find it interesting that folks kill deer all the time with lead projies sailing along at pedestrian velocities all the time, but must drive coated projies to the max.

Fellow at the range one day was telling me how many elk he had shot and not recovered with his 7mm STW.
I put a couple over my chronograph for him and noted that the bullet he was shooting had to get out to 300 yards before it slowed to the manufacturers MAX suggested velocity. None of the elk had been anywhere near that far away.

[Tripplebeards]

So I finally went out and tested my gun yesterday with three loads. Tow loaded with 165 grains Nosler ballistic tips (the black combined technology bullets)and one with 180 grain Nosler ballistic tips. The reason I chose these two bullets is because I have had both laying around since these bullets first came out and had all of 7, 165’s and 3 180’s left in each box. I figured I’d burn them up. I loaded the 165’s with 45 and 46 grains of H4895 and the 180’s with 45.5 grains of the same. Basically starting loads to see where my POA would shift.

What makes my testing screwed up is I raised up my ladder sight and made sure it was all the way down...it wasn’t. I felt it lower just a hair and bottom out. So I must have had it raised just a hair when I was shooting POA with my 150 grain loads....or I played with it afterwards...which I doubt happened. I’ll have to retest my 150 grain Seirra load and see if it hits low next time out.

So after running my volley sight all the way down I tried the 45 grain 165 grain load. It was a horrible group. One shot high and left a few inches above, the 2nd shot about an inch or two low and left, and the third shot didn’t hit paper. I’ll blame it on me since the gun can’t shoot that bad imo. All I can tell you it was a challenge to try and figure out where the front post and red diamond meet. It was a little fuzzy. Then I tried the 46 grain load at 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/WR7wKJA.jpg


I then tried the 180 grain load at 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/vrLuRtx.jpg


So all three loads shoot left to POA vs my 150 grain load. I also did not take my time shooting these for groups as it was an experiment for drops abs POA shift. I cycled the bolt, bang, cycled the bolt, bang, cycled the bolt, bang. Trying to but thst little triangle on top of my front sight was a challenge as well. I might have to retest with a square red box because if I was balancing the bottom tip of the triangle I wasn’t as low to POA as I probably think it is. My 46 grains 165 grain NBT bullet load was 1.25” after not taking my time! I will have to buy some more and take my time shooting my rifle to see if the load shoots any better and do some ladder testing. I’ll also drift my front sight and adjust my volley sight to adjust POA.

These were my last time out with my starting loads using 150 grain seirras. The all in one hole group was with my volley sight raised. I lowered it what I thought was all the way down and checked again for POA.

https://i.imgur.com/kDbPwZi.jpg

After lowering my volley sight all the way down with the 150’s...

https://i.imgur.com/XAAhXtb.jpg

So it was shooting a hair low with the 150’s as well.

The 180’s look like they hit pretty close to same vertical drop but to the left. The 165’s are about an inch lower if I had to guess and still left. I know when I first started out my fun shot left with the 150’s and I had to make a home made sight pusher besides re installing my sight forwards. I’ll have to readjust it when I go back to the range with the 165 grain loads or what ever I plan on shooting with the gun as a staple load.



These targets were at my very first range session with the gun back in its original form last year with various 150 grain loads and my home made sight pusher with front sight in backwards. It’s been turned around correctly.

https://i.imgur.com/G260ofa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/p6REv67.jpg

Since my front post is a PITA to see when trying to target shoot for groups I was thinking of painting my front post a bright color to see it. Does anyone do thing on their front post to help see it?

[Cree]

Sierra GKs have been around a long time and - depending on when yours were made, I’m not surprised at all at what happened. I had virtually the same performance on a doe at 50 yards with a 175 GK in my 7x57 Spanish small ring with a full load of either 4350 or 4064 a few years ago with the “old” lot. From what I’ve read, the older style did have a tendency to blow apart too quickly if the speed was still up there - hence what the tech might have meant by stretching out the distance. I’m also not sure if, when they were redesigned (if they really were), that they “toughened” anything up at all. Nonetheless, they gave great accuracy out of a badly worn barrel, and, honestly, great performance- it killed her quickly, but the lack of an exit wound made tracking a lot harder than it ought to be, even though it was a short track to follow.

But to your point, I’ve found - in my 1969 Winchester Model 70 in ‘06, that 168 grain Ballistic Tips and an ancient box of 150 grain Herters bullets (supposedly made by Norma for them) shoot within an inch of each other with the same powder charge. Like your targets, though, it’s not a straight drop, rather, a slight difference in both elevation and windage based on the “spin” of the bullet. As far as performance, the Ballistic Tips have been great and I’ve been loading them for a long time. Easily one of the best bullet designs for whitetails in terms of performance and - generally, they kill quickly and leave a good exit wound.

[Tedly]

You will need to shoot to know for sure , BUT...in general a heavier bullet will shoot HIGHER point of impact than a lighter bullet will at a given equal target.

[Eddie1971]

I wouldn't use any 4350 with a bullet under 175 grains. I'd go with something a little faster like 4064 or 4895. W748 is also a great choice.