Do you believe in hell?

[exile]

Do you believe in a literal hell?

Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

[Wally]

I beleive in the bible....I go by what the bible says....

see> https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

[Thunder Stick]

Yes. God does not desire that anyone go there but that all would receive his free gift of salvation that is in Christ alone.


Luke 16:19-31
New International Version
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

[1hole]

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?


God made heaven for his own children (John 3:16) and hell for those who reject him (John 3:17, 18). Therefore, it's clear that he doesn't make that decision, we do. Why would a loving God make mindless sock puppets of us and deny us the right to make our own choices?

Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.

What I "think" about it hardly matters; HE is God, not me!

[Finster101]

I don't think you can believe in one and not the other.

[GhostHawk]

For anyone who is so steeped in evil that they refuse to repent of their sins. There dang well better be a hell.

For many years I did not really believe in it as a physical place. I do now.

I also think a lot of people carry their own version of it along with themselves.
They somehow can not admit that the choices they made resulted in where they are. So they prefer to blame others. And we all know misery loves company.

[elmacgyver0]

Do you believe in a literal hell?

Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

Since you brought it up, what do you believe.

[Omega]

Nah, this is a human concept.

[Wally]

Yes, there is a literal hell

It is a bible concept....the greek uses the word "hades" & "sheol" for hell..

In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times, and it is translated as "the grave" 31 times. Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.

God doesn't want any to perish...He wants us to choose life, but the choice is ours.

Yes, Jesus mentioned it...

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Hell is the second death...all those that reject Jesus will face that fate.



Do you believe in a literal hell?



Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

[Ickisrulz]

When it comes to the fate of the unsaved, the careful student should forget everything they think they know and study the Bible passages that deal with the issue. The idea that the lost are tormented for all eternity does not have much biblical support. The natural reading of these passages (keeping in mind Jesus' use of highly symbolic imagery) leads one to believe that the lost are punished for their sins and then annihilated. They cease to exist.

[.429&H110]

I believe Hell is a choice we can make, or not.
Deceiver has only one lie "Did God really say...?"
And we reply "Why would God allow...?"
If I were God I wouldn't do that.
But I'm not. He Is.
Choose well.
Choose life.

[Thunder Stick]

The question of the existence of hades is often debated. But we need to ask ourselves what will become of us if it does exist. If it doesn’t exist, then no problem. But if it does exist, we have a problem.

Is eternity the same for Mother Teresa and Adolph Hitler? Is it the same for Joseph Stalin and Billy Graham? Where’s the dividing line? The dividing line is Jesus Christ. What about you and I? We All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire. It is a place that a righteous and holy God prepared for his enemy, the devil and his angels. The smoke of their torment will rise forever.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him.

[dverna]

Thunder Stick,

My understanding is that if Hitler truly accepted Jesus before he died, he is saved, and lives eternity with the Lord. It seems unfair to me, but I am not God. BTW a friend suggested I read the book the Shack and it seemed a man who had murdered a small child was going to be saved...God asked the father of the murdered child to forgive the murderer.

I struggle with the concept of "judgment" as well. If a person has accepted Jesus as his savior, that person goes to Heaven...what is being judged???

[Ickisrulz]

I struggle with the concept of "judgment" as well. If a person has accepted Jesus as his savior, that person goes to Heaven...what is being judged???

There is the judgement of the lost; those who died without having Christ as their savior. The only outcome of people facing this judgement is condemnation.

Then there is a different judgement of believers to determine if they deserve rewards. These people will not be condemned, but may not receive rewards if their faithfulness was limited.

[tinsnips]

HELL YES I do.

[1hole]

When it comes to the fate of the unsaved, the careful student should forget everything they think they know and study the Bible passages that deal with the issue. The idea that the lost are tormented for all eternity does not have much biblical support. The natural reading of these passages (keeping in mind Jesus' use of highly symbolic imagery) leads one to believe that the lost are punished for their sins and then annihilated. They cease to exist.

IF anyone studies the scripture in pursuit of understanding it would be impossible to honestly draw the conclusions you suggest; to get there they would have to start with a fixed belief and ignore everything that counters what you are determined to not see.

[Ickisrulz]

IF anyone studies the scripture in pursuit of understanding it would be impossible to honestly draw the conclusions you suggest; to get there they would have to start with a fixed belief and ignore everything that counters what you are determined to not see.

We've already been down this road before. I know you disagree with me. But to suggest the people that have reached the conclusion I have are not honest...well, that is just ridiculous.

Have you taken a fresh look at the idea of annihilation vs never-ending conscious torment? Or are you just operating on what you have been told from a young age?

I studied the idea of annihilation with great apprehension. I had always believed the (modern) traditional view of hell (this was my fixed belief). But my mind was changed when I looked at all the passages.

My view now is that the teaching of eternal torment is in direct contradiction to the Bible's teaching, contrary to the character of God and an embarrassment to the Church.

Can you actually tell someone their kind old grandmother is being tortured for eternity in Hell because she was a non-believer? You really think God is like that?

[Parson]

Can you actually tell someone their kind old grandmother is being tortured for eternity in Hell because she was a non-believer? You really think God is like that?[/QUOTE]

If someones kind old grandmother wanted nothing to do with God in this life, He loves her enough that He is not going to force her to spend eternity with Him in the next life and there is only one Other alternative

[GhostHawk]

I'm going to step WAY out on a limb here.

I was worried when my father died. Macualar degeneration, Glaucoma and age had him blind, frail and pretty much only able to yell at mom.
So for the last 5-6 years of his life that is pretty much what he did. Mom found a place in her head she could go and not hear him, so mostly she went there or slept.

So when Dad died I asked the Lord in Prayer "what is going to happen to my dad?"

And I got an answer back. He is being punished, but he repented before he died. So his punishment will not be that long or that hard.
He can see now what he was doing was causing pain for mom and the whole family and he is sorry.

Mom followed him some 3 months later. And I got an update. Mom was allowed to visit dad, encourage him, and his time in punishment was shrinking.

Then one night I had watched a movie about a good mother. I was sitting in my chair crying, my wife holding my hand. She knew I was grieving for them both.

Then I swear I felt mom's hand on my left shoulder, and her voice strong and vibrant once again saying "Your doing just fine Bill, just keep on doing it!"
Then I felt dad's heavier hand on my right shoulder and a very quiet "Love you son"

Then I got a vision, clear as could be. Mom and dad standing behind me, with their hands on my shoulder. And behind them was Jesus with his hands on their shoulders. And I KNEW that all was well, that dad was no longer being punished. That Mom and Dad were together, as they would want to be. And they were both with the Lord, and had his favor to send me this message and vision.

From that day there has been no pain. Yes I miss them both, but when I think of them there is no pain.

Now since that day I have seen, heard or been given anything about them. Perhaps they sleep in the Lord until the last trump sounds.

I can't prove any of this. I'm no preacher, I'm just a poor sinner, one who stumbles, fails and falls daily. But every day I try to do better.

But I swear this happened just the way I described. On my Mother and Fathers grave, on my hope of salvation I swear tis true. Take it as you will.

Do as you will. As for me, well I BELIEVE! The whole Bible, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, ALL of it. I BELIEVE.

Revelation 20:11-15;
20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. 21:8 But as for the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.

[Kosh75287]

If Biden gets elected....

[Thunder Stick]

I studied the idea of annihilation with great apprehension. I had always believed the (modern) traditional view of hell (this was my fixed belief). But my mind was changed when I looked at all the passages.

My view now is that the teaching of eternal torment is in direct contradiction to the Bible's teaching, contrary to the character of God and an embarrassment to the Church.



Can you cite those actual passages that led you to believe that, as well as the ones that indicate eternal torment is not eternal?

TNX

[Ickisrulz]

Can you cite those actual passages that led you to believe that, as well as the ones that indicate eternal torment is not eternal?

TNX

John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me and many others. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to see my worst enemy tormented forever. That is not justice, it is sadistic. This is not something the God of the Bible would do. Many are not aware that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom.

There are now three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins (the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day) and eventual annihilation.

The Bible’s discussion on what will become of fallen man begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. It is important to consider the big picture rather than concentrate of individual passages. When properly interpreted, the careful reader will see that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever.

Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.

Consider Jesus’ many comments. The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. Remember, Jesus was comparing the destruction of the unsaved to trash being burned at their local dump. He was not describing an existing physical location. The unsaved would be cast into fire like agricultural waste. Once dead branches are burned up, they cease to exist. It will be the same with the lost. Consider the Bible’s words used to describe the fate of the lost: perish, death, destroyed. These words do not sound like eternal suffering.

A phrase such as “The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die” has been taken to mean eternal torment. However, when we realize the sinner is not said to exist forever we see something different. In this case, the image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.

Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.

Much has been written on this subject and I'm sure I have not done the topic justice.

[dverna]

John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me and many others. To be honest, I wouldn’t want to see my worst enemy tormented forever. That is not justice, it is sadistic. This is not something the God of the Bible would do. Many are not aware that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom.

There are now three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins (the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day) and eventual annihilation.

The Bible’s discussion on what will become of fallen man begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. It is important to consider the big picture rather than concentrate of individual passages. When properly interpreted, the careful reader will see that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever.

Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.

Consider Jesus’ many comments. The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. Remember, Jesus was comparing the destruction of the unsaved to trash being burned at their local dump. He was not describing an existing physical location. The unsaved would be cast into fire like agricultural waste. Once dead branches are burned up, they cease to exist. It will be the same with the lost. Consider the Bible’s words used to describe the fate of the lost: perish, death, destroyed. These words do not sound like eternal suffering.

A phrase such as “The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die” has been taken to mean eternal torment. However, when we realize the sinner is not said to exist forever we see something different. In this case, the image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.

Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.

Much has been written on this subject and I'm sure I have not done the topic justice.

Thanks for your posts....I really enjoy them. Learned a lot from you and you make me think.

[farmbif]

in one of the very earliest versions of the Bible theres a line where Jesus says he will go down to haties and save those who are there. or something to that effect

[1hole]

My understanding is that if Hitler truly accepted Jesus before he died, he is saved, and lives eternity with the Lord. It seems unfair to me, but I am not God.

Your understanding is correct ... IF Hitler "accepted Jesus" in the Biblical way before he died. But we all need to know that heaven isn't awarded for being good and hell is not a punishment for being bad. However, heavenly rewards WILL BE based on how good we live and our depths of eternal hell WILL BE based on how bad we lived.

Thing to remember here is that "bad" people are very unlikely to accept Jesus in the Biblical way on their last gasp.


I struggle with the concept of "judgment" as well. If a person has accepted Jesus as his savior, that person goes to Heaven...what is being judged???

How we live(d) will be judged. And God is a god of justice so we can be sure his judgements and penalties will be fair.

BUT, judgements, as they're usually taught, are quite a bit different from what the Bible clearly says. The BIG question, i.e., will we go to heaven or hell, will NOT be a "heavenly judgement" at all, each of us makes that decision for ourselves before our first death. (John 3:16-18) Therefore, we should strive to choose wisely!

Bottom line, remember this; there is only ONE "sin" that sends anyone to hell and that's the rejection of Jesus as Lord of our lives. Everything else we do will be fairly judged, up or down, on a long scale. Those who reject Jesus as Lord will spend eternity in hell and, at its very best, it will be an unhappy place.

So, up or down? We all know the facts of eternal life and the requirements of salvation are so easy that even a ten year old child can do it so going to either place is rightly our own decision to make, isn't it?

[dverna]

1hole,

What are our Heavenly rewards? Does the house of the Lord have a penthouse? (just joking) Or do some sit closer to God's right hand?

In my simple minded way, I think spending eternity with Jesus, in any capacity, is reward enough. After all, even Jesus washed the feet of His disciples. No task or job in Heaven could be demeaning or unworthy. Maybe the more worthy are tasked to intervene with those on earth who need His help...I just do not know.

[1hole]

What are our Heavenly rewards? Does the house of the Lord have a penthouse? (just joking) Or do some sit closer to God's right hand?

I knew you were joking, but I also know you're serious in the point of your question; we both know scripture doesn't tell us so it's above my paygrade to even speculate. What is NOT speculation is that God does nothing meaningless so our rewards in heaven will be meaningful. I've explained it before for my blessed wife and dirty me. We will all probably have the things in heaven but not to the same degree, such as, we'll all have private transportation. If so, she will likely have a tricked out new Mercedes and I'll have a rusty old Moped.

The question of how long hell will last? Well, the only information we have is that it will be eternal, same as heaven, and that's part of the hell of it. I know of no one who would seek eternity in hell for anyone but we haven't been asked what we think. Ergo, I just trust that God knows what he's doing and knows what's fair for each person; I find rest in that.


...I just do not know.

True, but you know that no one else knows either so asking us for answers is like asking the blind to lead the blind! I have found it interesting to wonder about some unknowns myself but none of it keeps me awake at night.

Paul told Timothy and, by scripture, each of us to study the scriptures for what they actually say but he didn't say we should look for unwritten meanings and inject our ideas between the lines as if what we choose to "think" matters (2 Tim 2:15).

[bakerjw]

I am a very flawed person, yet with very very few exceptions, I could never send anyone to an eternity of torment.

[Thunder Stick]

What I requested of you was a list of scriptures (book, chapter, verse(s)) to support your opinion. That way, I could look at them and learn as you did. Never the less, lets look at something that you posted.




Consider what Genesis says on the matter. "The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death? My guess is that they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life (this is stated plainly). God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery and God did not want man suffering forever. It is better for a fallen person’s existence to be terminated than it is for him to live forever in a sinful state.



The death that Adam and Eve experienced was separation from God. It is Satan's M.O. to say, "Hath God said?" It's in his DNA. so to speak, because he is the father of all lies.

But back to the issue of eternal punishment and death, here is what God's Word says, with references...


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:41


“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Here, Jesus Christ clearly says that there is an eternal punishment by fire and that not just the devil is sent there.


"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14-15


"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’" - Mark 9:47-48

Here, Jesus Christ verifies Isaiah 66:24.

These descriptors are not to say God is not loving. They are to say that God is a just God.


"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. 10But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him." Deuteronomy 7:9-10

[Ickisrulz]

What I requested of you was a list of scriptures (book, chapter, verse(s)) to support your opinion. That way, I could look at them and learn as you did. Never the less, lets look at something that you posted.



The death that Adam and Eve experienced was separation from God. It is Satan's M.O. to say, "Hath God said?" It's in his DNA. so to speak, because he is the father of all lies.

But back to the issue of eternal punishment and death, here is what God's Word says, with references...





Here, Jesus Christ clearly says that there is an eternal punishment by fire and that not just the devil is sent there.





Here, Jesus Christ verifies Isaiah 66:24.

These descriptors are not to say God is not loving. They are to say that God is a just God.

If you are interested in this subject, pick up one of Edward Fudge's books (he's not the only proponent, but he's very accessible). He does a much better job than I can. His books are inexpensive and easy to read. He covers every reference on hell in the Bible. I cannot possible do in one post that which takes him 175+ pages.

As far as Adam and Eve, their primary punishment was death. It was threatened by God and then it happened. Satan said, "You will not surely die." He lied about this because that was the issue that concerned Adam and Eve and kept them from the fruit. Then we see a massive genealogy a couple chapters later that tells about all these descendants with the statement, "and then he died." That was the issue (and it was highlighted over and over), not separation from God. Adam and Eve were driven from the garden, primarily, so they would not eat from the tree of life and live forever.

As far as separation from God, it seemed that Cain and Able had direct access to God in one way or another as did many Old Testament saints.

FWIW:

If you are annihilated from existence, that is an eternal punishment--you are not coming back, you are gone forever.

An eternal fire does not mean that that which is thrown into it exists forever. Whatever is thrown into this fire burns up (think dead branches).

As I have said before, "the fire is not quenched and the worm doesn't die" speaks of the instruments of punishment and God's unstoppable will to punish.

[MT Gianni]

One of the more interesting statements I have seen proposed as fact was " Much of what we know of as Hell, we know because of Dante's Inferno". IOW, much of our supposed knowledge comes from a fictional book. Since God is Eternal, Eternal punishment is His punishment and He sets the terms. I don't believe that will be one size fits most.

[elmacgyver0]

It seems Mr. exile is unwilling to answer his own question, therefor I find it irrelevant.

[Ickisrulz]

One of the more interesting statements I have seen proposed as fact was " Much of what we know of as Hell, we know because of Dante's Inferno".

This is probably true and ironic since Dante's version of hell was freezing with Satan trapped in a block of ice.

I have also head it said that when people read the Book of Jonah they picture him inside the whale like was depicted in Disney's Pinocchio. That is a massive chamber versus Jonah inside a cramped stomach.

[monadnock#5]

It all boils down to the Logic of Opposites: Heaven, Hell; day, night; acid, base; love, hate...and on and on. There can't be one without the other. I don't have to know exactly what Hell looks like or have a copy of the sentencing guidelines to know that I don't want myself or anyone that I know to have go there.

[Texas by God]

Our own death will give us the answer. Don’t you agree?

[dtknowles]

There might be a hell but it will not be a lake of never ending fire and brimstone.
There will probably be punishments and rewards including salvation.
God can punish your soul without any physical fire or contact. God's thoughts can become our pain or our reward. I agree more with Ickisrulz - punishment then obliteration or maybe reincarnation.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Our own death will give us the answer. Don’t you agree?

If death leads to obliteration you may not know anything. Of course if you are saved you will probably know you are saved but that does not mean you will know what happens to those who are not saved. Would you really want to know what happened to your parents if they were not saved? Wouldn't it kind of diminish your salvation to know that your parents are burring in the eternal lake of fire.

Tim

[a danl]

Do you believe in a literal hell?

Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

yes, i believe in hell because Jesus warned us more about hell than telling us about heaven. God is a holy God therefore sin has to be punished. also, if there is no hell then Jesus lied and it is impossible for God to lie.

[dangitgriff]

If there is a Hell, governments must surely be its progeny.

[a danl]

There might be a hell but it will not be a lake of never ending fire and brimstone.
There will probably be punishments and rewards including salvation.
God can punish your soul without any physical fire or contact. God's thoughts can become our pain or our reward. I agree more with Ickisrulz - punishment then obliteration or maybe reincarnation.

Tim

the bible tells us what hell is like. just read your bible, it's in there. noone should ever have to go there because it will never end.

[dtknowles]

the bible tells us what hell is like. just read your bible, it's in there. noone should ever have to go there because it will never end.

I don't believe everything in the bible. I know what it says. You have to take it with a healthy dose of salt.

Tim

[a danl]

I don't believe everything in the bible. I know what it says. You have to take it with a healthy dose of salt.

Tim

i disagree, you either believe it or you don't. and if you don't that makes you an unbeliever and that's not good. i would not want to die in that condition.

[a danl]

When it comes to the fate of the unsaved, the careful student should forget everything they think they know and study the Bible passages that deal with the issue. The idea that the lost are tormented for all eternity does not have much biblical support. The natural reading of these passages (keeping in mind Jesus' use of highly symbolic imagery) leads one to believe that the lost are punished for their sins and then annihilated. They cease to exist.

i will reply with a verse. proverbs 3:5 trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

[dtknowles]

i disagree, you either believe it or you don't. and if you don't that makes you an unbeliever and that's not good. i would not want to die in that condition.

I believe in God the creator of all that is. There is but one God. I believe just not in the Bible.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

i will reply with a verse. proverbs 3:5 trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

I have no idea why you posted this. Do you want to clarify?

[Thunder Stick]

Trying to sumarize the posts here, I think there is a pattern.

1. The Bible says there is a hell.
2. People say there is not.
3. people say there is but it is temporary and not eternal. (Pergatory?)
4. When you die, that is the end. There is nothing after that.

So, who of us is fully prepared for any of those scenarios when we, "shuffle off this mortal coil"? That is the "what if" scenario that all mankind struggles with and it is good that we discuss the issue. I think there is a saying along the lines of, "I know there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell."

God sent His Son to seek and save the lost. Christianity is the one unique faith among all religions. You cannot earn salvation of your soul. No pennance, no duty, no traveling to holy sites, no being good or anything else to "do" to earn salvation. It is "done" by Jesus Christ when he suffered the penalty we deserve for our sins through His death on a cross. His blood has washed away the sins of all who believe Him. Salvation of your soul is His free gift to you. Put your faith in Him and you won't need to worry about the details.

[ioon44]

Amen, good post.

[ioon44]

I believe in God the creator of all that is. There is but one God. I believe just not in the Bible.

Tim

If you don't believe in the God of the Bible then which god are you believing in ?

[1hole]

Can you actually tell someone their kind old grandmother is being tortured for eternity in Hell because she was a non-believer? You really think God is like that?

Your question is poorly phrased. We are not puppets; I really think God loves us enough to grant us the privilege of making our own choices. For eternity, there are only two options; if we reject God, he isn't going to over-ride our decision and make us go where we really didn't want to go.

The doctrines of hell's fires are poorly taught; not all who go hell will spend eternity on a BBQ spit. Fact is, the lives of the lost will be judged fairly and their punishments will precisely match the harm of their sins. But, at it's best, hell will be a hell of a place and that's why we Christians try as best we can to get the lost to open their eyes and see. (Satan hates that so he prompts hell bound sinners to resist and resent our best efforts.)

I would never tell anyone else where a good ol' granny who wasn't a follower of the Lord - has gone. Fact is, none of us really knows where their granny is going because that's between them and God. That's what I tell people who ask; then I try to get them to grasp the spiritual truth for themselves.

Life is real, it's not a pretend place where man can safely pick and choose what he likes from the huge buffet of other lost men's lofty ideas. The Bible is what God has given us to know him. If we say we "believe in a god" but reject the God of the Bible we cut the only secure anchor line that can hold us safe in the rocky shoals and storms of life. Choose what you "believe" wisely.

[1hole]

Can you actually tell someone their kind old grandmother is being tortured for eternity in Hell because she was a non-believer? You really think God is like that?

Parson is right and your question is poorly phrased.

We are not puppets; I really think God loves us enough to grant us the privilege of making our own choices. For eternity, there are only two options; if we reject God, he isn't going to over-ride our decision and make us go where we really didn't want to go.

The doctrines of hell's fires are poorly taught; not all who go hell will spend eternity on a BBQ spit. Fact is, the lives of the lost will be judged fairly and their punishments will precisely match the harm of their sins. But, at it's best, hell will be a hell of a place and that's why we Christians try as best we can to get the lost to open their eyes and see. (Satan hates that so he prompts hell bound sinners to resist and resent our best efforts.)

I would never tell anyone else where a good ol' granny who wasn't a follower of the Lord - has gone. Fact is, none of us really knows where their granny is going because that's between them and God. That's what I tell people who ask; then I try to get them to grasp the spiritual truth for themselves.

Life is real, it's not a pretend place where man can safely pick and choose what he likes from the huge buffet of other lost men's lofty ideas. The Bible is what God has given us to know him. If we say we "believe in a god" but reject the God of the Bible we cut the only secure anchor line that can hold us safe in the rocky shoals and storms of life. Choose what you "believe" wisely.

[Ickisrulz]

Parson is right and your question is poorly phrased.

We are not puppets; I really think God loves us enough to grant us the privilege of making our own choices. For eternity, there are only two options; if we reject God, he isn't going to over-ride our decision and make us go where we really didn't want to go.

The doctrines of hell's fires are poorly taught; not all who go hell will spend eternity on a BBQ spit. Fact is, the lives of the lost will be judged fairly and their punishments will precisely match the harm of their sins. But, at it's best, hell will be a hell of a place and that's why we Christians try as best we can to get the lost to open their eyes and see. (Satan hates that so he prompts hell bound sinners to resist and resent our best efforts.)

I would never tell anyone else where a good ol' granny who wasn't a follower of the Lord - has gone. Fact is, none of us really knows where their granny is going because that's between them and God. That's what I tell people who ask; then I try to get them to grasp the spiritual truth for themselves.

Life is real, it's not a pretend place where man can safely pick and choose what he likes from the huge buffet of other lost men's lofty ideas. The Bible is what God has given us to know him. If we say we "believe in a god" but reject the God of the Bible we cut the only secure anchor line that can hold us safe in the rocky shoals and storms of life. Choose what you "believe" wisely.

I don't know who Parson is.

It sounds like the hell that you believe in is so objectionable that you will not subject those who ask to its "realities"--unless we're talking hypothetical. Why not give an honest assessment in accordance with your understanding? Why water the whole thing down?

Why not say, "If you grandmother died without Jesus, she has a terrible eternity ahead of her. She might not be standing in the fire, but her situation is not good!"

Annihilation is a message of peace. It is not a perfect outcome for a human being, but the sinner will be rescued from the torment of a sinful life and sinful environment. This is done because God loves people.

I'll ask again, have you studied this subject with an open mind or are you falling back on what you've always been taught?

Has it never bothered you that God told Adam and Eve, "The day you eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge you will certainly die," but left out the part about eternal torment in hell?

[a danl]

I have no idea why you posted this. Do you want to clarify?

tim, he is leaning on his own understanding of what he alone thinks is the way of salvation. he doesn't believe the truth about what the bible says. i'm sorry for the mislead, it was supposed to have been directed to tim. i understand why you asked me the question.

[a danl]

Trying to sumarize the posts here, I think there is a pattern.

1. The Bible says there is a hell.
2. People say there is not.
3. people say there is but it is temporary and not eternal. (Pergatory?)
4. When you die, that is the end. There is nothing after that.

So, who of us is fully prepared for any of those scenarios when we, "shuffle off this mortal coil"? That is the "what if" scenario that all mankind struggles with and it is good that we discuss the issue. I think there is a saying along the lines of, "I know there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell."

God sent His Son to seek and save the lost. Christianity is the one unique faith among all religions. You cannot earn salvation of your soul. No pennance, no duty, no traveling to holy sites, no being good or anything else to "do" to earn salvation. It is "done" by Jesus Christ when he suffered the penalty we deserve for our sins through His death on a cross. His blood has washed away the sins of all who believe Him. Salvation of your soul is His free gift to you. Put your faith in Him and you won't need to worry about the details.

as i said earlier, if people would read the bible they would get their answers. the problem is that they keep questioning god and what the bible says. we don't question god,
we just have to obey. he is our creator and we are the created. it's like he is the potter and we are the clay. does the clay question the potter about anything? no , the potter makes whatever he wants out of the clay.

[DGV]

Yes. All that's available is jacketed bullets. No Powder & Primers. Pure Hell!

[a danl]

Your question is poorly phrased. We are not puppets; I really think God loves us enough to grant us the privilege of making our own choices. For eternity, there are only two options; if we reject God, he isn't going to over-ride our decision and make us go where we really didn't want to go.

The doctrines of hell's fires are poorly taught; not all who go hell will spend eternity on a BBQ spit. Fact is, the lives of the lost will be judged fairly and their punishments will precisely match the harm of their sins. But, at it's best, hell will be a hell of a place and that's why we Christians try as best we can to get the lost to open their eyes and see. (Satan hates that so he prompts hell bound sinners to resist and resent our best efforts.)

I would never tell anyone else where a good ol' granny who wasn't a follower of the Lord - has gone. Fact is, none of us really knows where their granny is going because that's between them and God. That's what I tell people who ask; then I try to get them to grasp the spiritual truth for themselves.

Life is real, it's not a pretend place where man can safely pick and choose what he likes from the huge buffet of other lost men's lofty ideas. The Bible is what God has given us to know him. If we say we "believe in a god" but reject the God of the Bible we cut the only secure anchor line that can hold us safe in the rocky shoals and storms of life. Choose what you "believe" wisely.

amen, good response ..

[dtknowles]

If you don't believe in the God of the Bible then which god are you believing in ?

God is not of some book. God is and people make up stories about God and write books.

Tim

[.429&H110]

Didja ever read it?
Didja ever attend a Wednesday night and pray?
Didja ever see prayer answered?
I have.
Faith is not complicated.
Faith is easy.
Faith is a choice.
Live shut into your world
worshipping yourself
or live in God's world
and thank Him.
Serve Him.
Hell is a choice. Choose well.
"For me and my house, we will serve the Lord"
said Joshua
In honor of the day, dig out
Isaiah 9:11 and 10...
Rezim was the king of syria
who were his enemies? The arabs.
The sycamores survived 9/11 and protected that church
the church where Washington consecrated America
across the street from ground zero
Washington declared a covenant
with God there that day 1792.
We forgot. God doesn't forget.
We dug up the sycamores, planted pine trees.
I like Psalm 19:11 better...
Choose well.
To fail to choose is a choice, too.

[dangitgriff]

If there is a hell, there has to be a road that leads there. Better check the ground under your feet, gentlemen, for good intentions.
R/Griff

[Thunder Stick]

God is not of some book. God is and people make up stories about God and write books.

Tim

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

[1hole]

I don't know who Parson is.

Parson is a guy who addressed the question a few posts back.


It sounds like the hell that you believe in is so objectionable that you will not subject those who ask to its "realities"--unless we're talking hypothetical. Why not give an honest assessment in accordance with your understanding? Why water the whole thing down?

Going to the core of your question, there is a vast difference between "watering down" the realities of hell and deliberately causing unnecessary and pointless grief in remaining loved ones; jamming the total truth down grieving throats would be emotional cruelty without purpose and I, for one, don't feel like doing that.


Why not say, "If you grandmother died without Jesus, she has a terrible eternity ahead of her. She might not be standing in the fire, but her situation is not good!"

Now, that's a "lovingly" cruel approach, isn't it? Truth is, I have no way of knowing what spiritual state of heart granny was in when she exhaled her last breath. Nor do you. And my loving ol' grandpa once told me that if what I'd like to say is harmful instead of helpful to just keep my mouth shut. I try. (I wish more people would live that way.)


Annihilation is a message of peace. It is not a perfect outcome for a human being, but the sinner will be rescued from the torment of a sinful life and sinful environment. This is done because God loves people.

Nonsense. Annihilation is hardly a message of peace. It has been a message of emotional terror since the dawn of time, way before there was any knowledge of an eternal hell.

You're more studious and innerlecshal than me so you'll have to tell me how a dying unbeliever would be afraid of a hell. That would require that he believe in something he doesn't believe in; how would that work??

In God's love, he has explained in detail how to avoid hell and then He - in the person of Jesus - paid the penalty for our sins himself so man will never need to face it.

Salvation is simple to understand and easy to do. I can't fathom how/why so many people (who know better) still reject the present joys of a well lived Christian life, and that's before heaven comes into play.


I'll ask again, have you studied this subject with an open mind or are you falling back on what you've always been taught?

I suspect I've spent much more time studying the coming life in heaven and hell than you. And I know there's a vast difference between having an open mind or an extra hole in the head.


Has it never bothered you that God told Adam and Eve, "The day you eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge you will certainly die," but left out the part about eternal torment in hell?

"Has it never ....?" Not for a moment; why should it?

You're stewing over gauzy things that make no difference. Do you not think God and Adam had a lot more conversation than the very brief condensation recorded in Genesis?

[popper]

in one of the very earliest versions of the Bible theres a line where Jesus says he will go down to haties and save those who are there. or something to that effect
You're gonna have to post a reference to that!!

[a danl]

Didja ever read it?
Didja ever attend a Wednesday night and pray?
Didja ever see prayer answered?
I have.
Faith is not complicated.
Faith is easy.
Faith is a choice.
Live shut into your world
worshipping yourself
or live in God's world
and thank Him.
Serve Him.
Hell is a choice. Choose well.
"For me and my house, we will serve the Lord"
said Joshua
In honor of the day, dig out
Isaiah 9:11 and 10...
Rezim was the king of syria
who were his enemies? The arabs.
The sycamores survived 9/11 and protected that church
the church where Washington consecrated America
across the street from ground zero
Washington declared a covenant
with God there that day 1792.
We forgot. God doesn't forget.
We dug up the sycamores, planted pine trees.
I like Psalm 19:11 better...
Choose well.
To fail to choose is a choice, too.

yes to all, good post

[a danl]

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

it would be nice if there was a like button that we could just click on. it would save a lot of space and time

[a danl]

You're gonna have to post a reference to that!!

that is not true

[Thunder Stick]

You're gonna have to post a reference to that!!

"This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" Ephesians 4:8-9 8


"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners," Isaiah 61:1 (See Luke 4:10)


"As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit." Zechariah 9:11

Isaiah 42:6-7

“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison." Isaiah 42:6-7

This occured when Christ died and rose again. "Abraham's bosom" the place for the righteous dead was emptied. (We discussed Abraham's Bosom in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.)

[Ickisrulz]

Parson is a guy who addressed the question a few posts back.



Going to the core of your question, there is a vast difference between "watering down" the realities of hell and deliberately causing unnecessary and pointless grief in remaining loved ones; jamming the total truth down grieving throats would be emotional cruelty without purpose and I, for one, don't feel like doing that.



Now, that's a "lovingly" cruel approach, isn't it? Truth is, I have no way of knowing what spiritual state of heart granny was in when she exhaled her last breath. Nor do you. And my loving ol' grandpa once told me that if what I'd like to say is harmful instead of helpful to just keep my mouth shut. I try. (I wish more people would live that way.)



Nonsense. Annihilation is hardly a message of peace. It has been a message of emotional terror since the dawn of time, way before there was any knowledge of an eternal hell.

You're more studious and innerlecshal than me so you'll have to tell me how a dying unbeliever would be afraid of a hell. That would require that he believe in something he doesn't believe in; how would that work??

In God's love, he has explained in detail how to avoid hell and then He - in the person of Jesus - paid the penalty for our sins himself so man will never need to face it.

Salvation is simple to understand and easy to do. I can't fathom how/why so many people (who know better) still reject the present joys of a well lived Christian life, and that's before heaven comes into play.



I suspect I've spent much more time studying the coming life in heaven and hell than you. And I know there's a vast difference between having an open mind or an extra hole in the head.



"Has it never ....?" Not for a moment; why should it?

You're stewing over gauzy things that make no difference. Do you not think God and Adam had a lot more conversation than the very brief condensation recorded in Genesis?

It does make a difference to me (and many others) in how God will deal with the unsaved. Death was promised for disobedience, not eternal torment. Had God told Adam and Eve "death" actually meant eternal torment, I certainly think it would have been included in his warning. There is a big difference between death (ceasing to live) and unending torture. To equate the two is ridiculous and would make it that God had lied to Adam and Eve.

The germ for the idea of eternal torment doesn't appear until Jesus taught with a few parables that describe destruction. Why do you suppose the disciples didn't ask Jesus about a never ending physical hell? The disciples did not because they understood what he was getting at: the lost are obliterated like dead branches in the fire. The next "evidence" we see for an everlasting eternal punishment is in Revelations. However, this book is written in symbolism and hyperbole and should be used sparingly for proof especially when you get into weird descriptions. The books of the New Testament that we use to establish doctrine do not present an eternal conscientious torment for the lost. The authors use terms that suggest an end to existence: death, perish, destroyed.

Those who see Jesus' parables as depicting eternal torment for the unsaved don't even take these passages literally. We no longer have Jonathan Edwards preaching a terrifying picture of sinners being roasted throughout the never ending ages. Now we have people claiming that hell will be psychological suffering or a eternity away from the good things of God. Even you yourself have suggested as much. Why is that? Because eternal physical suffering is just too much to fathom (because for reasonable people it seems unfair), let alone suggest God would do such a thing.

Annihilation will bring peace to those who are lost. They will not have to endure the harmful effects of sin,restlessness, etc. anymore. I would rather picture a lost loved one being obliterated than being tortured forever. They will be given peace.

There are many people who "believe" that are not saved (see James). There are those who have accepted the Gospel message as fact, but for whatever reason will not commit to God. I would imagine these people would worry about hell.

I don't know if you've spent more time studying these things than me or not. Maybe, since you're older.

[Thunder Stick]

Those who see Jesus' parables as depicting eternal torment for the unsaved don't even take these passages literally. We no longer have Jonathan Edwards preaching a terrifying picture of sinners being roasted throughout the never ending ages. Now we have people claiming that hell will be psychological suffering or a eternity away from the good things of God. Even you yourself have suggested as much. Why is that? Because eternal physical suffering is just too much to fathom (because for reasonable people it seems unfair), let alone suggest God would do such a thing.

That is using human logic and feelings and understanding to interpret what the Bible has to say on the subject. You have not quoted any of God’s Word to support your position. Any believer here would be happy to mail you a free Bible to read. Please don’t just take our word for it. Read it for yourself. Really.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It is a fact. No parable identifies the subjects by name. That’s what makes it a... parable. :)

[Ickisrulz]

That is using human logic and feelings and understanding to interpret what the Bible has to say on the subject. You have not quoted any of God’s Word to support your position. Any believer here would be happy to mail you a free Bible to read. Please don’t just take our word for it. Read it for yourself. Really.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It is a fact. No parable identifies the subjects by name. That’s what makes it a... parable. :)

Do you need to be insulting? You think I just sit here making up stuff? No, I have done my share of Bible study.

I did quote Bible passages, not all of them though. Over and over the Bible says "death", "perish" and "destroy." The only way we have to interpret these words is using human understanding. Do you know of another? Somehow people came to believe that these words actually mean eternal suffering. That is very odd and it is certainly reading something into those passages.

Do you realize that when Jesus healed people, and when the way he went about doing it was described, that no two ways were the same? Jesus used variety in his ministry. The parables he told also used a variety of presentations. Just because Lazarus and Abraham were named doesn't mean it was a true story (where do you get this is the criteria?). The story was told to describe the magnitude and peril of unbelief, not give a lecture on the afterlife. This is basic biblical interpretation (FWIW, I learned this getting my degree in biblical studies). Even if the story were a true event, there is no mention that the rich man's situation is eternal.

I realize I will change few minds with my arguments here. I was hoping to prompt some interest in researching the matter. Alas, it is almost impossible to have Christians examine or amend their personal doctrine (at one time this was called a not having a teachable spirit). But you don't have to be rude about things.

I have suggested more than once a better source of information on the matter than myself. I was once like you guys. I was sure that sinners would be tormented in hell forever. My mind was changed. Is there emotion involved? Yes, I feel much better in what I have learned and come to believe.

[scattershot]

No......

[a danl]

It does make a difference to me (and many others) in how God will deal with the unsaved. Death was promised for disobedience, not eternal torment. Had God told Adam and Eve "death" actually meant eternal torment, I certainly think it would have been included in his warning. There is a big difference between death (ceasing to live) and unending torture. To equate the two is ridiculous and would make it that God had lied to Adam and Eve.

The germ for the idea of eternal torment doesn't appear until Jesus taught with a few parables that describe destruction. Why do you suppose the disciples didn't ask Jesus about a never ending physical hell? The disciples did not because they understood what he was getting at: the lost are obliterated like dead branches in the fire. The next "evidence" we see for an everlasting eternal punishment is in Revelations. However, this book is written in symbolism and hyperbole and should be used sparingly for proof especially when you get into weird descriptions. The books of the New Testament that we use to establish doctrine do not present an eternal conscientious torment for the lost. The authors use terms that suggest an end to existence: death, perish, destroyed.

Those who see Jesus' parables as depicting eternal torment for the unsaved don't even take these passages literally. We no longer have Jonathan Edwards preaching a terrifying picture of sinners being roasted throughout the never ending ages. Now we have people claiming that hell will be psychological suffering or a eternity away from the good things of God. Even you yourself have suggested as much. Why is that? Because eternal physical suffering is just too much to fathom (because for reasonable people it seems unfair), let alone suggest God would do such a thing.

Annihilation will bring peace to those who are lost. They will not have to endure the harmful effects of sin,restlessness, etc. anymore. I would rather picture a lost loved one being obliterated than being tortured forever. They will be given peace.

There are many people who "believe" that are not saved (see James). There are those who have accepted the Gospel message as fact, but for whatever reason will not commit to God. I would imagine these people would worry about hell.

I don't know if you've spent more time studying these things than me or not. Maybe, since you're older.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change, if he does change then we cannot believe the bible at all, so what would you have? i say nothing. john 3:16 says it very well, part of the verse "whoever believes in him should not perish but have ETERNAL life." that means forever. and yes, that's why Jesus warned us continually about believing in him and why it is so important.

[Ickisrulz]

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change, if he does change then we cannot believe the bible at all, so what would you have? i say nothing. john 3:16 says it very well, part of the verse "whoever believes in him should not perish but have ETERNAL life." that means forever. and yes, that's why Jesus warned us continually about believing in him and why it is so important.

How does your post relate to mine?

[a danl]

How does your post relate to mine?

aren't we talking about an eternity of punishment ? eternity is forever !

[Electrod47]

Amen, to that.

[Electrod47]

When it comes to the fate of the unsaved, the careful student should forget everything they think they know and study the Bible passages that deal with the issue. The idea that the lost are tormented for all eternity does not have much biblical support. The natural reading of these passages (keeping in mind Jesus' use of highly symbolic imagery) leads one to believe that the lost are punished for their sins and then annihilated. They cease to exist.

Amen to this.

[.429&H110]

All y'all making this harder than it needs to be. We have 73 posts, Romans is only 17 pages. Apostle Paul describes how you should be. Thus Romans 12.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

>>"for it written..."<<

Where? 16 cross references across The Word of God
Deuteronomy 32:35 for example.
If you are uncomfortable with a God of Vengeance, God of Wrath, reaping the whirlwind, the whole judging thing, Heaven and Gehenna, then you must choose. Ignore the hole in your heart or fill it with the only thing that fits. I do not worry at all, or study much, the afterlife, I am just trying to get out of here alive. I would be glad if you came with me. Thank You Jesus for not leaving me as I was!

[Ickisrulz]

aren't we talking about an eternity of punishment ? eternity is forever !

I still don't know your point. But keep in mind, the words "eternity" and "forever" were not in the Greek language.

[a danl]

I still don't know your point. But keep in mind, the words "eternity" and "forever" were not in the Greek language.

i know the greeks didn't speak english. so the original wording would translate to our words in english, correct?

[Ickisrulz]

i know the greeks didn't speak english. so the original wording would translate to our words in english, correct?

The words would be translated "unto the ages of ages." You will find that the ancient Jews were not precise in dealing with time spans or numbers of people like we are today.

[a danl]

so, then, what does "unto the ages of ages" transfer to in your words.

[1hole]

.....There are many people who "believe" that are not saved (see James). There are those who have accepted the Gospel message as fact, but for whatever reason will not commit to God. I would imagine these people would worry about hell.

Also see Mat 7:24-27.

Ah well, it was worth a try but there are none so blind as those who are determined to not see.

[Ickisrulz]

so, then, what does "unto the ages of ages" transfer to in your words.

A long time.

[dtknowles]

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

Do you understand what you are saying? You are saying that you believe the bible was written by God because the bible says so.

Also think about the meaning of Scripture

Scripture, also called sacred scripture, the revered texts, or Holy Writ, of the world’s religions. Scriptures comprise a large part of the literature of the world. They vary greatly in form, volume, age, and degree of sacredness; but their common attribute is that their words are regarded by the devout as sacred. Sacred words differ from ordinary words in that they are believed either to possess and convey spiritual and magical powers or to be the means through which a divine being or other sacred reality is revealed in phrases and sentences full of power and truth.

I actually believe that God caused all scriptures to be written. Every thing that is is the work of God. In that way the Bible is no different than any thing else ever written.

Tim

[dtknowles]

i know the greeks didn't speak english. so the original wording would translate to our words in english, correct?

Not correct. Because of the differences in languages some things can't be translated. Also, we are not talking about Greeks, we are talking about the peoples of Palestine. They spoke and wrote Greek if they were at all educated as it was the common language of the region and we are talking about the Greek language as it was then, not as it is today. Even the Romans in the region spoke Greek.

The idea of forever, infinity, something with no end is a more recent idea not an ancient one.

Tim

[dtknowles]

.....The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It is a fact. No parable identifies the subjects by name. That’s what makes it a... parable. :)

That is not true:

Parable:

A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human characters. A parable is a type of metaphorical analogy.

Take Hansel and Gretel as an example.

Tim

[a danl]

Not correct. Because of the differences in languages some things can't be translated. Also, we are not talking about Greeks, we are talking about the peoples of Palestine. They spoke and wrote Greek if they were at all educated as it was the common language of the region and we are talking about the Greek language as it was then, not as it is today. Even the Romans in the region spoke Greek.

The idea of forever, infinity, something with no end is a more recent idea not an ancient one.

Tim

do you believe that God has always existed from eternity past and will exist into eternity future ? i do..

[a danl]

No, but I don't believe in heaven either.

so you're an unbeliever ? that's not good !

[.429&H110]

I am no Greek scholar
long ago I wanted to know
why the versions were different
Apparently Satan did it.
Over at BibleHub you can find Strong's KJV and read the Bible in Greek, find the slippery words, compare translations. Don't worry about pronouncing Greek, they had four dialects, they could not agree either. No capital letters, punctuation, spaces between the words, or verses.

AION (our eon) translates age or world
KOSMOS (the TV show) translates world

EIS TON AIONA Hebrews 5:6 translates forever

Google speaks Greek
punch in "translate aiona"

[1hole]

Gee, I thought I was answer a question asked. Not sure where I stated I was an unbeliever, other than being an unbeliever in heaven and hell.

Scott, I'm old and getting a bit slow, help me a bit --- seems you're not an unbeliever and you believe something but not God's heaven or hell. So I wonder, what do you believe?

[a danl]

In God. Pretty simple.

I think heaven/hell is entirely man made. There is nothing as narcissistic as man, I guess believing in a mansion is the sky helps feed man's ego.

Whatever gets you through the day, but you don't see me questioning why others believe in a cosmic zombie named Christ.

so, scott, you don't believe in heaven or hell: i would appreciate your input as to just why do you believe anything, since you have no future hope

[1hole]

In God. Pretty simple.

I think heaven/hell is entirely man made. There is nothing as narcissistic as man, I guess believing in a mansion is the sky helps feed man's ego.

Whatever gets you through the day, but you don't see me questioning why others believe in a cosmic zombie named Christ.

"In god"? And you "think" we Christians are cosmic zombie followers ... but you on the other hand, are not narcissistic like we are; do I have that right? Well ... okay, I get it. I think.

I mean, you believe no one can possibly know more about God than you. I have to admit that's an interesting point of view, one we've only seen a few dozen times before; you're obviously too smart for me to question further.

I won't bother to ask what certainties you base your beliefs on, nor how you derived your unique knowledge about the spiritual things of God.

I truly hope you enjoy THIS life but ... remember, this life won't last forever! ;)

[dtknowles]

do you believe that God has always existed from eternity past and will exist into eternity future ? i do..

For as long as there has been time there has been God. Before that there was nothing, no God, no void, no time, nothing. God created all that is including God. I don't know how or if it will come to an end.

Why do you think that God will exist into eternity. If the universe collapses back into a singularity and disappears, what do you think happens to God? I am not saying that is what I think will happen but it is a possibility.

Tim

[a danl]

I'd like to ask why you care? I'm fairly certain if there is a heaven, you won't see it.

you are a very confusing person, i'm sorry i bothered you

[flyingmonkey35]

I do not belive in the hell and brimstone of the bible.

I bielve these threats are told by self rightious pious men who get off on condeming others for what they precive to be sinfull.

Do as i do, think like i think, pray this way or you will go to hell.

Its the same as muslium and all other religons .

Hell is about control and using fear of pain to control the sheep.

My op when you die you, will be shown your life and the suffuring you caused others. You will be made to know the pain you have caused.

And when you can forgive yourself. You will be free to move on to the next part.

Any god worth beliving in would not throw away a soul becase its stained.

The fact that we have bible thumpers stating that "it is writen, therfore must be truth." Need to read some scfi once in a while.

We humans have vivid imaginations.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[1hole]

And when you can forgive yourself. You will be free to move on to the next part.

Any god worth beliving in would not throw away a soul becase its stained.

And you feel that any god worth believing in must agree with you? Good luck with that! :)


We humans have vivid imaginations.

True, very vivid imaginations. And nothing could display it better than the many rambling man-made "I think ... " posts on this thread.

[a danl]

I do not belive in the hell and brimstone of the bible.

I bielve these threats are told by self rightious pious men who get off on condeming others for what they precive to be sinfull.

Do as i do, think like i think, pray this way or you will go to hell.

Its the same as muslium and all other religons .

Hell is about control and using fear of pain to control the sheep.

My op when you die you, will be shown your life and the suffuring you caused others. You will be made to know the pain you have caused.

And when you can forgive yourself. You will be free to move on to the next part.

Any god worth beliving in would not throw away a soul becase its stained.

The fact that we have bible thumpers stating that "it is writen, therfore must be truth." Need to read some scfi once in a while.

We humans have vivid imaginations.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

i believe you are wrong on all you believe. christianity is the only way because our God is the only one that has risen from the grave. all other gods are still in their graves, or made out of stone that have ears and cannot hear or eyes and cannot see. and He (Jesus) is the one that told us what hell is like. if you don't believe Him then your hope is in vain.

[Thunder Stick]

The last thing the devil wants us to belive in is heaven and hell, God and Satan, good and evil. The discussion here is not about pious proclamations by mere men, but men showing what God says in the Bible as an answer to who ask or doubt. Think of it like going to the instruction manual for the answer on how something works.

God is eternal. That is a difficult fact for us to grasp from a finite, human perspective. "Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." - Psalm 90:2

To cite what human scholars, experts, feelings, opinions and human beliefs say to refute The Bible is just what the devil wants. It is his "modus operandi". He has used it as a weapon for millenium. "Yea, hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1) The devil casts doubt, he misquotes what God says and he deceives people to drive a division between man and God. Christ came to reconcile mankind to God. (Matthew 18:11)

"Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him." - Psalm 34:8

[1hole]

....To cite what human scholars, experts, feelings, opinions and human beliefs say to refute The Bible is just what the devil wants. It is his "modus operandi". He has used it as a weapon for millenium. "Yea, hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1) The devil casts doubt, he misquotes what God says and he deceives people to drive a division between man and God. Christ came to reconcile mankind to God. (Matthew 18:11)

Well said; it's a case of the blind leading the gullible as they all follow Satan to his hell!

[flyingmonkey35]

i believe you are wrong on all you believe. christianity is the only way because our God is the only one that has risen from the grave. all other gods are still in their graves, or made out of stone that have ears and cannot hear or eyes and cannot see. and He (Jesus) is the one that told us what hell is like. if you don't believe Him then your hope is in vain.Blind faith with-out thought is sad.

You are sad to codem another human just because they diagaree woth you.

You have proven my point, that you cannot hold a debate without condeming someone to hell to prove your point.

I do hope you feel better about yourself.

The op started this topic to ask our opinions on the subject. Wich i gave, you are free to disregard my opions as I am free to ingore yours.

Unleas you a muslim then you need to kill me as im a non beliver.




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[a danl]

Blind faith with-out thought is sad.

You are sad to codem another human just because they diagaree woth you.

You have proven my point, that you cannot hold a debate without condeming someone to hell to prove your point.

I do hope you feel better about yourself.

The op started this topic to ask our opinions on the subject. Wich i gave, you are free to disregard my opions as I am free to ingore yours.

Unleas you a muslim then you need to kill me as im a non beliver.




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

i'm not condemning you, it's God who will do that. i just can't understand where you get that false info from. i was really trying to guide you in the right direction but it seems i wont be able to. i'm sorry.. the bible warns of false teachers

[a danl]

I'm certain much confuses you. I answered a question asked. I didn't question other people's answers, I'm not sure why my answer causes you so much grief.

Again, I didn't question anyone else's beliefs, but you felt pious enough to question mine. God will have a problem with you. I hope you repent before you are cast to hell.

apparently you do believe in hell or you wouldn't talk as you do

[flyingmonkey35]

i'm not condemning you, it's God who will do that. i just can't understand where you get that false info from. i was really trying to guide you in the right direction but it seems i wont be able to. i'm sorry.. the bible warns of false teachersThe simple fact that you feel the need to guide me to your path. What you conisder the right path tells me you could not accept my idea. And only yours must be correct.

Im sorry but holy texts. All of them are just tools used to control the sheep.

While they hold moral sounding vaules they must not be taking as fact.

That would be its own topic all allone.

I have a diffrent belif in a god then you do.

I dont have any issue with other people beliving what they want.

Im sad that you cant do that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[a danl]

proverbs chapter 18 verse 7 "a fool's mouth is his ruin, and his lips are a snare to his soul"

[dtknowles]

i'm not condemning you, it's God who will do that. i just can't understand where you get that false info from. i was really trying to guide you in the right direction but it seems i wont be able to. i'm sorry.. the bible warns of false teachers

Just like those who believe the Bible was written by God because the Bible says so, they don't understand that, of course the Bible would warn against believing anything other than the Bible.

This is the same kind of techniques that cults use to indoctrinate their following.

They all say, our sacred documents come from God and you must not believe anything else.

Any religion or belief that says its our way or you are bound for hell or such is a trap not a path to salvation.

Tim

[ioon44]

If you don't believe in the God of the bible then which god do you believe in?

[Ickisrulz]

Just like those who believe the Bible was written by God because the Bible says so, they don't understand that, of course the Bible would warn against believing anything other than the Bible.

This is the same kind of techniques that cults use to indoctrinate their following.

They all say, our sacred documents come from God and you must not believe anything else.

Any religion or belief that says its our way or you are bound for hell or such is a trap not a path to salvation.

Tim

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17

I always thought that to use the Bible to prove that it came from God was a poor argument. That is circular logic. If one looks closely at the passage it can be seen that it gives the definition of Scripture (i.e., God-breathed) and outlines its purpose (i.e., teach, rebuke, correct, etc.).

As far as proof that the Bible is God's word, this cannot be proven in a scientific way. But those of us who are believers know this to be true. The following passages are reality for many of us.

"If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority." John 7:17

"My sheep hear my voice." John 10:27

By now we should all realize that you are not a believer and leave you alone. Arguing with you is a waste of time and energy.

[1hole]

"My sheep hear my voice." John 10:27

By now we should all realize that you are not a believer and leave you alone. Arguing with you is a waste of time and energy.

AND, continuing to do so is contrary to scripture; something about pearls and swine. (Mat 7:6)

[a danl]

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17

I always thought that to use the Bible to prove that it came from God was a poor argument. That is circular logic. If one looks closely at the passage it can be seen that it gives the definition of Scripture (i.e., God-breathed) and outlines its purpose (i.e., teach, rebuke, correct, etc.).

As far as proof that the Bible is God's word, this cannot be proven in a scientific way. But those of us who are believers know this to be true. The following passages are reality for many of us.

"If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority." John 7:17

"My sheep hear my voice." John 10:27

By now we should all realize that you are not a believer and leave you alone. Arguing with you is a waste of time and energy.

amen. i don't know why tim has to keep jumping in on these conversations. he has no argument to add. he has been led by his own understanding and not God's.

[flyingmonkey35]

amen. i don't know why tim has to keep jumping in on these conversations. he has no argument to add. he has been led by his own understanding and not God's.The topic is "Do you belive in Hell"

Not do you agree with my verison of hell.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[exile]

Come on guys, let's not all gang up on Tim! We like him, he is a true sceptic, a seeker, and let's face the truth, without him this theological sub-forum would be boring! (Too many commas in that last sentence.) How are you Tim? Well I hope!

exile

[RogerDat]

Hell gets a lot of play in later new testament and some in the old, Jesus wasn't real big on selling hades as the outcome of not following me.

Seems to me that the idea of universal salvation put forth in the new testament leaves open that being with god in eternity is assured. Period. The new testament has several passages that speak of the sacrifice being for all mankind without regard to actions or worthiness of salvation. There are of course other statements that imply actions required. Holy book not contradict itself then it probably lacks credibility.

The point is it seems entirely possible we are experiencing hades here and now. Certainly a world full of misery and avoidable pain and suffering. Caused by mans actions, which are often far from grace to put it mildly. If one excepts that universal salvation exists, then it follows that damnation at least as a state of not being spiritually one with god exists.

But it boils down to life on earth being separated by a veil from god (greater or lesser as one believes) qualifies, and if salvation is universal. The sacrifice truly is for all mankind, the sins of the "world" are being absolved... It makes sense that we move on from "the bad place" to the "good place".

Also easier to reconcile with a loving and merciful god I might add. Certainly easier to reconcile than you didn't believe right for the short time you were alive so I'm tossing you into a burning pit for all eternity. Seems to sort of fall short of the whole loving and merciful descriptions. Of course there are others. God sending bears to rend the children who made fun of his prophets bald head come to mind as seeming less than merciful.

I sort of figure different times and peoples maybe required different messages. If I send a prophet to these people they need to know to be respectful or the message won't get known. Idea that the message is worth "collateral" damage but I still find that one hard to reconcile with an all powerful god not being able to find something a little better than sending in the bears on young folks for being rude.

In the end I always come back to who am I to actually understand the entity that made all that is was or ever will be? People have faith because absolute certainty is not provided. If an all powerful entity wanted us to have certainty I'm thinking monolith on every continent of incredible size, that never wears or fades, with the absolute truth in all languages written on the sides would have done the trick. For a kicker the truth appears in Esperanto when that got invented as a language. Just saying if we were supposed to know god could have left no room for any doubt. All would have known the same truths.

So perhaps this is hades, and the small glimpses of truth we have to take on faith are the love and mercy that make it bearable so we can experience an additional measure of the goodness this world has to offer. Far from gods presence as it might be.

[a danl]

i find it amazing that some people have just enough information to make them dangerous as they speak, and that some people reading these statements who are weak in faith and knowledge of the truth of the bible have a tendency to believe what they read...........i say beware that there is a hell, and i would not want to lean on my own understanding of the subject, rather learn to trust what the word of God says.

[dtknowles]

If you don't believe in the God of the bible then which god do you believe in?

There is but one God. The creator of all that is.

I think you are really asking what book do I believe. None of the or all of them. I believe a little from most of them and none of them completely. The bible is really pretty good but it is still a work of historical fiction.

Tim

[dtknowles]

i find it amazing that some people have just enough information to make them dangerous as they speak, and that some people reading these statements who are weak in faith and knowledge of the truth of the bible have a tendency to believe what they read...........i say beware that there is a hell, and i would not want to lean on my own understanding of the subject, rather learn to trust what the word of God says.

Which words of God. He has written very many books of scripture beside the bible.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Come on guys, let's not all gang up on Tim! We like him, he is a true sceptic, a seeker, and let's face the truth, without him this theological sub-forum would be boring! (Too many commas in that last sentence.) How are you Tim? Well I hope!

exile

I am well, how about you? Thanks for asking. I think we are going to dodge a third hurricane this year, so far. Knock wood. Such an ungodly superstition :razz:

They can't really gang up on me they have to take turns. They are so smug. Think the know so much. They should take their faith and treasure it. If only we all could be so sure. You see when you are sure it does not matter if you are right or not, nothing will change. Being sure is no guarantee of anything but it does help ease one's mind.

Tim

[1hole]

They can't really gang up on me they have to take turns. They are so smug.

Well, the web is a single file activity so we all have to stand in line, don't we?


You see when you are sure it does not matter if you are right or not, nothing will change. Being sure is no guarantee of anything but it does help ease one's mind.

That sword cuts two ways. Its sharp back edge says you're certain that no one else can possibly know more about God than you - and that's really not true! ;)

[Rizzo]

...... I think we are going to dodge a third hurricane this year, so far.

Glad to hear that Tim.
Lately, with all the storms going on by you, I look at the weather map of the storm's paths and could not see why you wouldn't get hammered.
You must be using one of those left over NASA Shuttle Program/Star Trek Force Field Gizmotrons to put a protective dome over your area. <grin>

[RogerDat]

God is god, mans understanding or lack thereof would be of little matter in the workings of the universe. Faith for oneself is a good thing. Men have done much good thoughts words and deeds due to faith. But faith imposed on others tend to be an abomination. Because that is always imposed through the failed creature that man is. No man speaks with the authority of god, yet many claim to.

If god is to be known it is though the seeking, not the imposing. Too often hell seems to be getting bandied about as a way to impose gods will. Or as an excuse for curtailing the rights of others with a different view.

Remember gnostic means seeking the truth to be found where it may be found. The things so many faith traditions have in common argue for those common things to be a revealed and important truth. Where they differ perhaps those are on less solid ground as revealed truth, having had different human authors or edits exert undue influence. Leaving us no way to determine which is the truth and which is the distortion provided by man except through faith or study or prayer or ……

Judgement does seem to be common, acceptance into gods world vs isolation are fairly common themes. However one does have to bear in mind at the time of writing being accepted by the king was to be given access to the city as a residence, to be kept separate was horrible. Banishment, being cast out of the community would be concepts that audience would understand in a way deeper than modern mans is I think. The question is are all these ideas in the bible worth reading? Certainly while one may consider the bible without "error" our understanding of what is said can be and certainly is at times in error. Same can be said of many holy works. Some ideas expressed over the centuries last. Others gain refinement in the fullness of time or due to some wisdom gleaned and shared by the individual.

other times people bend the bible to serve their own will and desires to the detriment of all who fall under those peoples sway or authority. So I say again the ability of man to make this paradise we live on in the vastness of space a hell on earth may be the biggest tragedy

[a danl]

Which words of God. He has written very many books of scripture beside the bible.

Tim

yeah, you're right tim. all 66 of them.

[Txcowboy52]

I believe!

[dtknowles]

Glad to hear that Tim.
Lately, with all the storms going on by you, I look at the weather map of the storm's paths and could not see why you wouldn't get hammered.
You must be using one of those left over NASA Shuttle Program/Star Trek Force Field Gizmotrons to put a protective dome over your area. <grin>

If you look at the aerial photos of New Orleans East after Katrina. The NASA Michoud Assembly Facility and the USDA office complex at Michoud were an island of green surrounded by brown flood waters.

267858

Tim

[dtknowles]

Well, the web is a single file activity so we all have to stand in line, don't we?



That sword cuts two ways. Its sharp back edge says you're certain that no one else can possibly know more about God than you - and that's really not true! ;)

Not only do you have to wait your turn. I can ignore you. Well, not you. You are too much fun.

I know that some people know more than me about God but I have not heard from them here. I might not know more than you about God or I might. Me, I am not done learning about God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

yeah, you're right tim. all 66 of them.

Those 66 are not all the books of scripture they are only the bible.

Tim

[a danl]

Those 66 are not all the books of scripture they are only the bible.

Tim

those 66 are all you need for salvation, that's more important than anything in our lives

[.429&H110]

If God Almighty posted here, would you put him on ignore?

CS Lewis paraphrase:
If it isn't real, who cares?
If it is real, repent.

Wouldn't it be terrible, if you got the lake of fire, and realized too late Jesus could have, would have saved you. But no. You chose.

[1hole]

Not only do you have to wait your turn. I can ignore you. Well, not you. You are too much fun.

I know that some people know more than me about God but I have not heard from them here. I might not know more than you about God or I might. Me, I am not done learning about God.

First, I'm not offended by waiting for my turn to be ignored, it goes with the territory.

Next, your version of a man-made "god" and designing your own path to him isn't new, it's as old as Cain.

God has put dozens of messengers in front of you but, like the deceived souls of old, you persist in turning aside and sneering at truth; you call spiritual good bad and bad as good.

It seems you have been "done learning about God" for a very long time. You know the truth but stubbornly reject the narrow path to God while you happily cling to the broad road to hell and invite others to go with you; that's truly sad.

[flyingmonkey35]

So.

I was wondering. Mabey this should be a new topic but..

The bible states and this fourm not to worship false idols.

Yet alll throuhougt christianty you pray to a cross. Pray to mary. Have idols of crosses and statutes of jeuses about.

How is this not praying to somthing other then god.

And should you go to hell becuase you do?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[a danl]

So.

I was wondering. Mabey this should be a new topic but..

The bible states and this fourm not to worship false idols.

Yet alll throuhougt christianty you pray to a cross. Pray to mary. Have idols of crosses and statutes of jeuses about.

How is this not praying to somthing other then god.

And should you go to hell becuase you do?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

pray to and in the name of Jesus only. not to the cross and not to mary. mary never told anybody how to live . Jesus did so that makes it easier (i suppose) to go to mary for some. remember, God is a jealous God and rightly so. remember what the bible teaches about false teachers.

[dtknowles]

Ok, many here tell me to believe Jesus is God made man who performed miracles including rising from the dead and they also tell me they know that hell is real.

A person can't just wake up one day and decide that they will believe those things. Belief is not something you can just turn on. Beliefs are formed not chosen.

I don't believe in Newton's laws of motion because they were written in some book. I believe because I have tested them and they worked. Do I believe in the current theories of subatomic particle physics? No, I think they are just that theories, ideas, almost certainly to be revised.

Some say that you should believe in hell because if it is not real who cares and if it is real you better cling to Jesus. Neither of these ideas can save me because God would know what I really believe not what I say I believe. Actually God would know me as a hypocrite who believes one thing and claims to believe another.

I believe what I believe because it is what I believe. I try to learn more but here all you get is Bible interpretations which for more than 40 years have had now effect except exposing the hypocrisy of some Christians.

I wish someone here really knew God and could help me see what God wants without resorting to the Bible. I know a couple things. There is but one God, the creator of everything. That God wants us to love one another and make the world a better place. I don't know if there is salvation. I don't know if there is a hell. Neither of those are certain. I think anyone who is certain of those things is fooling themselves. If there is a salvation, I think good people will have a better chance than just any person.

Tim

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Do you believe in a literal hell?

Is the idea of hell a biblical concept?

Is the idea of hell as an actual place discussed in the New Testament? How about the Old Testament?

Would a loving God send anyone to hell?

Did Jesus talk about hell?

What do you think?

exile

Down on yer knees and out with your wallet! Back in the day you could pay the church to secure your spot in heaven. There is no Lake of fire but I did have a few beers once at the Lake of Fire tavern.

[flyingmonkey35]

pray to and in the name of Jesus only. not to the cross and not to mary. mary never told anybody how to live . Jesus did so that makes it easier (i suppose) to go to mary for some. remember, God is a jealous God and rightly so. remember what the bible teaches about false teachers.Just a quick thought. What i see is peoploe who pray to a stautue of mary.

Pray to jesus on the cross.

Wave the cross as a holy relic a symbol.

Yet none of those things are god.

The symbology in chrsitanty i have found to be hyporctical and against worshiping idols. Any idol.

It amazes me that people look at jesus on a cross and think yes he died horribly.

Why not see what he taught not how he died.

The catholic church is the worst offender of this.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Thundarstick]

Just a quick thought. What i see is peoploe who pray to a stautue of mary.

Pray to jesus on the cross.

Wave the cross as a holy relic a symbol.

Yet none of those things are god.

The symbology in chrsitanty i have found to be hyporctical and against worshiping idols. Any idol.

It amazes me that people look at jesus on a cross and think yes he died horribly.

Why not see what he taught not how he died.

The catholic church is the worst offender of this.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

There are many Christians who have this very view, after all even the scriptures say, "God is a spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth". I sometimes find it disturbing how much time and energy is devoted to Christ birth and death vs his life and teachings. So, examine Christ teachings. If you find them full of faults, go in peace, if you find them worthy of following, then follow them.
Personally, if you came into my home, you would find no religious indicators except a few bibles and religious books, no pictures no crosses no figurines. When I pray, I pray to God, through Jesus, as I believe I am my own priest, and Jesus is my High Priest that lifts my prayers up to God. I celebrate all holidays as secular in nature, not religious. Christians are even warned in the scriptures about keeping certain days and calendar events. So follow what you will and remember, all following leads somewhere.

[dtknowles]

Just a quick thought. What i see is peoploe who pray to a stautue of mary.

Pray to jesus on the cross.

Wave the cross as a holy relic a symbol.

Yet none of those things are god.

The symbology in chrsitanty i have found to be hyporctical and against worshiping idols. Any idol.

It amazes me that people look at jesus on a cross and think yes he died horribly.

Why not see what he taught not how he died.

The catholic church is the worst offender of this.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Yes, the trappings of religion as opposed to loving God. Too much focus on the material things and ornaments and not enough on proper thinking and acting. Wishing not working.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

So.

I was wondering. Mabey this should be a new topic but..

The bible states and this fourm not to worship false idols.

Yet alll throuhougt christianty you pray to a cross. Pray to mary. Have idols of crosses and statutes of jeuses about.

How is this not praying to somthing other then god.

And should you go to hell becuase you do?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

then you are against reading the bible as prayer too as its just a book. How many times have i seen christian pastors preaching while holding up that book???? People that sit and pray in front of a statue of Mary or Jesus on the cross aren't praying to that object. There praying to Jesus or asking Mary to help them pray to jesus. No real catholic worships Mary. We worship God. We show reverence to Mary. She gave BIRTH to the son of GOD. Id say she deserves a bit of respect for that and the very hard job of raising the SON OF GOD. Just like my own mother deserves my respect.

I also chuckle at people that bash the fact we have a cross with Jesus on it saying thats wrong but a cross without him is just fine. That a statue of Jesus is wrong but a picture of him in your church is ok. A priest wearing his robes is wrong but your pastor wearing his 500 dollar suit is ok. Far as im concerned we are all Christians (at least i am) and i wont judge the way you pray and you do me the same favor in return. One things for sure. The bible (unless you think its not valid) clearly says its GODS job to judge and if you do you are disobeying God and he is very clear in that that is a SIN.

Never did understand why some feel the need to criticize other Christians over trivial little differences. Most of it comes from lack of understanding and alot of it from people that just have to put down others to make themselves feel superior. Some of these hatreds and prejudices have been passed down for generations. There are over a 100 different Christian faiths in the world. Comical how some think they are in the only right one. Most that talk like this are in those little fringe churches that are probably closer to be classified as a cult then a church. There are 1.2 BILLION people in the world that believe in my church and the way we pray. How many are in yours and share your opinion? There are protestant faiths that turn a blind eye to abortion and homosexuality. Churches were pastors become millionaires from money there people contribute. Many do it by twisting the words in the bible to convince gullible people they have the only way. If you want to correct someone why don't you start there. Because Jesus is the way and hell is real

[1hole]

Look again Lloyd; they make no claim to be Christian.

[ioon44]

John ch14 v6
Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth, and the life! No one comes to the Father except through Me.

How sad that so many will not accept this simple truth.

[a danl]

Ok, many here tell me to believe Jesus is God made man who performed miracles including rising from the dead and they also tell me they know that hell is real.

A person can't just wake up one day and decide that they will believe those things. Belief is not something you can just turn on. Beliefs are formed not chosen.

I don't believe in Newton's laws of motion because they were written in some book. I believe because I have tested them and they worked. Do I believe in the current theories of subatomic particle physics? No, I think they are just that theories, ideas, almost certainly to be revised.

Some say that you should believe in hell because if it is not real who cares and if it is real you better cling to Jesus. Neither of these ideas can save me because God would know what I really believe not what I say I believe. Actually God would know me as a hypocrite who believes one thing and claims to believe another.

I believe what I believe because it is what I believe. I try to learn more but here all you get is Bible interpretations which for more than 40 years have had now effect except exposing the hypocrisy of some Christians.

I wish someone here really knew God and could help me see what God wants without resorting to the Bible. I know a couple things. There is but one God, the creator of everything. That God wants us to love one another and make the world a better place. I don't know if there is salvation. I don't know if there is a hell. Neither of those are certain. I think anyone who is certain of those things is fooling themselves. If there is a salvation, I think good people will have a better chance than just any person.

Tim

you're right, it is the Holy Spirit that will convince you that Jesus is God.

[a danl]

Down on yer knees and out with your wallet! Back in the day you could pay the church to secure your spot in heaven. There is no Lake of fire but I did have a few beers once at the Lake of Fire tavern.

all that is false teaching, run from it.

[a danl]

There are many Christians who have this very view, after all even the scriptures say, "God is a spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth". I sometimes find it disturbing how much time and energy is devoted to Christ birth and death vs his life and teachings. So, examine Christ teachings. If you find them full of faults, go in peace, if you find them worthy of following, then follow them.
Personally, if you came into my home, you would find no religious indicators except a few bibles and religious books, no pictures no crosses no figurines. When I pray, I pray to God, through Jesus, as I believe I am my own priest, and Jesus is my High Priest that lifts my prayers up to God. I celebrate all holidays as secular in nature, not religious. Christians are even warned in the scriptures about keeping certain days and calendar events. So follow what you will and remember, all following leads somewhere.

amen to that.

[Thunder Stick]

John ch14 v6
Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth, and the life! No one comes to the Father except through Me.

How sad that so many will not accept this simple truth.

Fun fact:

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Did you know that the gates leading into the temple were called “the way” (eastern gate) “the truth” (Nicantor gate) and “the life” (door into Holy Place)?

[dtknowles]

John ch14 v6
Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth, and the life! No one comes to the Father except through Me.

How sad that so many will not accept this simple truth.

Just because it was written the the bible does not make it the truth.

[dtknowles]

you're right, it is the Holy Spirit that will convince you that Jesus is God.

So it the Holy Spirit has given you faith in Jesus, faith you will have. If the Holy Spirit has not then you won't have faith in Jesus. What moved the Holy Spirit to give you faith? What makes you special?

[a danl]

So it the Holy Spirit has given you faith in Jesus, faith you will have. If the Holy Spirit has not then you won't have faith in Jesus. What moved the Holy Spirit to give you faith? What makes you special?

God does it all. Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him, in love.

[a danl]

Just because it was written the the bible does not make it the truth.

that's why there is faith. you need to understand what faith is. Hebrews 11:1 now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

[ioon44]

Fun fact:

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Did you know that the gates leading into the temple were called “the way” (eastern gate) “the truth” (Nicantor gate) and “the life” (door into Holy Place)?

Yes, I know that and there is much to be gained when studying the Hebrew roots of Christianity.

Accepting Jesus is the only thing we need to do to pass from Death to Eternal life.

[ioon44]

Just because it was written the the bible does not make it the truth.

If you don't accept the Bible as Truth then you will fall for any kind of lies and be deceived.

[flyingmonkey35]

then you are against reading the bible as prayer too as its just a book. How many times have i seen christian pastors preaching while holding up that book???? People that sit and pray in front of a statue of Mary or Jesus on the cross aren't praying to that object. There praying to Jesus or asking Mary to help them pray to jesus. No real catholic worships Mary. We worship God. We show reverence to Mary. She gave BIRTH to the son of GOD. Id say she deserves a bit of respect for that and the very hard job of raising the SON OF GOD. Just like my own mother deserves my respect.

I also chuckle at people that bash the fact we have a cross with Jesus on it saying thats wrong but a cross without him is just fine. That a statue of Jesus is wrong but a picture of him in your church is ok. A priest wearing his robes is wrong but your pastor wearing his 500 dollar suit is ok. Far as im concerned we are all Christians (at least i am) and i wont judge the way you pray and you do me the same favor in return. One things for sure. The bible (unless you think its not valid) clearly says its GODS job to judge and if you do you are disobeying God and he is very clear in that that is a SIN.

Never did understand why some feel the need to criticize other Christians over trivial little differences. Most of it comes from lack of understanding and alot of it from people that just have to put down others to make themselves feel superior. Some of these hatreds and prejudices have been passed down for generations. There are over a 100 different Christian faiths in the world. Comical how some think they are in the only right one. Most that talk like this are in those little fringe churches that are probably closer to be classified as a cult then a church. There are 1.2 BILLION people in the world that believe in my church and the way we pray. How many are in yours and share your opinion? There are protestant faiths that turn a blind eye to abortion and homosexuality. Churches were pastors become millionaires from money there people contribute. Many do it by twisting the words in the bible to convince gullible people they have the only way. If you want to correct someone why don't you start there. Because Jesus is the way and hell is realLloyd

Touched a nerve there did I.


If my question offended you that much perhaps you should take another look at the queston and your answer.

As i still see it as worshiping a idol however you spin it.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[dtknowles]

that's why there is faith. you need to understand what faith is. Hebrews 11:1 now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

So your salvation depends of faith in things hoped for and conviction of things not seen? But you seem so absolutely sure of it. That would be text book delusional.

Tim

[dtknowles]

If you don't accept the Bible as Truth then you will fall for any kind of lies and be deceived.

It is hard to get away with lying to me. I will not believe you without proof.

Tim

[flyingmonkey35]

It is hard to get away with lying to me. I will not believe you without proof.

TimTim

Based on the history of the chruch, the proved you were not a witch by drowning you.

So not sure i would accept any proof from a relgion that has a history of commiting Atrocities to prove that their religion is the correct one.

Heritic or infidel?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Dieselhorses]

Somebody asked me that once and I gave them an earful! What kind of a question is "Do you believe in Hell?" Do you really wanna take a chance at assuming there is no hell? Like Clint Eastwood asked the perp "Do you feel lucky-punk?" Yea, there could be another round in that gun and no, you don't want take that chance! If there is a Heaven, then yes, there is a Hell. How do I know? For one, I believe what the Bible says and two, I believe what the Bible says! The Bible is the word of God, and anything therein shouldn't be doubted. Remember, neither Heaven nor Hell is temporary.

[flyingmonkey35]

Somebody asked me that once and I gave them an earful! What kind of a question is "Do you believe in Hell?" Do you really wanna take a chance at assuming there is no hell? Like Clint Eastwood asked the perp "Do you feel lucky-punk?" Yea, there could be another round in that gun and no, you don't want take that chance! If there is a Heaven, then yes, there is a Hell. How do I know? For one, I believe what the Bible says and two, I believe what the Bible says! The Bible is the word of God, and anything therein shouldn't be doubted. Remember, neither Heaven nor Hell is temporary.So are you going to drag your kid out to the city hall and stone her?

It is gods will after all.



Deuteronomy 22:20-21 ESV / 19 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father's house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst



Or mabey what you mean to say is you belive that we must trust in our own belifes and not have blind faith.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[dtknowles]

Tim

Based on the history of the chruch, the proved you were not a witch by drowning you.

So not sure i would accept any proof from a relgion that has a history of commiting Atrocities to prove that their religion is the correct one.

Heritic or infidel?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I think you are confusing truth and proof with dogma and smoke and mirrors.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Somebody asked me that once and I gave them an earful! What kind of a question is "Do you believe in Hell?" Do you really wanna take a chance at assuming there is no hell? Like Clint Eastwood asked the perp "Do you feel lucky-punk?" Yea, there could be another round in that gun and no, you don't want take that chance! If there is a Heaven, then yes, there is a Hell. How do I know? For one, I believe what the Bible says and two, I believe what the Bible says! The Bible is the word of God, and anything therein shouldn't be doubted. Remember, neither Heaven nor Hell is temporary.

Why do you believe the bible is the word of God and how do you know that neither Heaven nor Hell is temporary?

[flyingmonkey35]

I think you are confusing truth and proof with dogma and smoke and mirrors.

TimTim

I was agreeing with your point.

I just dont aee the bible as proof of anything.

I belive in the bible just as much as homers oddsy. And greek mytholgy.

The chatholic church did a fantastic job of coopting pagan holidays and festavials as thier own.

Christmass had nothing to do with jesus brith.

It was a celeberation of midwinter.

Easter was the spring festival.

Its all about controll



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Thundarstick]

Rite on Christmas, wrong on Easter.

[flyingmonkey35]

Rite on Christmas, wrong on Easter."Eostre was a goddess of spring or renewal and that's why her feast is attached to the vernal equinox,"

It also happens to coopt passover.




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Dieselhorses]

Why do you believe the bible is the word of God and how do you know that neither Heaven nor Hell is temporary?

Like I said, do you feel lucky? The Bible is the word of God because God inspired scholars, theologians and apostles to put it together. People doubt it's credibility but then they'll read the daily paper and believe it first before they believe the "good book". Folks believe in the stock market, take stock in the farmers almanac, believe the weather forecaster, etc. Kids wholeheartedly believe in that nickel or quarter they used to get when they lost a tooth and put under pillow. Every time you sit down in a chair you involuntarily have 'Faith" that it's going to hold you up. So why is it so cynical or a travesty to believe that "born again" Christians will have eternal life in Heaven and those who refuse to believe will be cast into the lake of fire? Don't get me wrong, I just don't "believe" because I don't want to take the risk, I believe in God and the cross Jesus died on AND His resurrection because I took a step of faith and was totally transformed into something I don't regret to this day! God has done some big time, fancy work in my life that otherwise wouldn't have happened without Him! After knowing God, things start coming together in a 'spiritual sense" and not secular. God has His own timing and DOES work in mysterious ways. Some people don't want to take that step of faith because they fear it's a "cult" and they won't be able to turn back. At any rate, God doesn't love you any less than anyone else! But there is a requirement to spend eternity in the "by and by", and that's simply to give our life to Jesus and ask Him into our heart. Jesus paid the ultimate price when He suffered and died for all humanity. It's the only hope we have to escape the "doom and gloom" of an ever so close destruction of this world.

Just say the following...

Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.

I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.

You said in the bible that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved.

Right now I confess Jesus as my Lord. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Amen.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd

Touched a nerve there did I.


If my question offended you that much perhaps you should take another look at the queston and your answer.

As i still see it as worshiping a idol however you spin it.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

ill let God judge me at the pearly gates. Not you. Ill pray to him to show you the path too.

[1hole]

Or mabey what you mean to say is you belive that we must trust in our own belifes and not have blind faith.

??? Are you feeling lucky; you aren't God and you have no grounds to say what He does is wrong so isn't "trusting in your own beliefs" the ultimate in blind faith?

[a danl]

So your salvation depends of faith in things hoped for and conviction of things not seen? But you seem so absolutely sure of it. That would be text book delusional.

Tim

tim, stop believing the things you look for in your own head......read this..Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8 "for by grace you have been saved through FAITH, and this is not YOUR own doing; it is the gift of God." verse 9 "not a result of works, so that no one may boast."....this is why i believe and what i believe.

[flyingmonkey35]

??? Are you feeling lucky; you aren't God and you have no grounds to say what He does is wrong so isn't "trusting in your own beliefs" the ultimate in blind faith?"If anyone ever asks if your a God you say YES!"




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[dtknowles]

Tim

I was agreeing with your point.

I just dont aee the bible as proof of anything.

I belive in the bible just as much as homers oddsy. And greek mytholgy.

The chatholic church did a fantastic job of coopting pagan holidays and festavials as thier own.

Christmass had nothing to do with jesus brith.

It was a celeberation of midwinter.

Easter was the spring festival.

Its all about controll



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Yeah, I know, sorry you misunderstood my post I was agreeing with you too. I did not mean to criticize.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Like I said, do you feel lucky? The Bible is the word of God because God inspired scholars, theologians and apostles to put it together. People doubt it's credibility but then they'll read the daily paper and believe it first before they believe the "good book". Folks believe in the stock market, take stock in the farmers almanac, believe the weather forecaster, etc. Kids wholeheartedly believe in that nickel or quarter they used to get when they lost a tooth and put under pillow. Every time you sit down in a chair you involuntarily have 'Faith" that it's going to hold you up. So why is it so cynical or a travesty to believe that "born again" Christians will have eternal life in Heaven and those who refuse to believe will be cast into the lake of fire? Don't get me wrong, I just don't "believe" because I don't want to take the risk, I believe in God and the cross Jesus died on AND His resurrection because I took a step of faith and was totally transformed into something I don't regret to this day! God has done some big time, fancy work in my life that otherwise wouldn't have happened without Him! After knowing God, things start coming together in a 'spiritual sense" and not secular. God has His own timing and DOES work in mysterious ways. Some people don't want to take that step of faith because they fear it's a "cult" and they won't be able to turn back. At any rate, God doesn't love you any less than anyone else! But there is a requirement to spend eternity in the "by and by", and that's simply to give our life to Jesus and ask Him into our heart. Jesus paid the ultimate price when He suffered and died for all humanity. It's the only hope we have to escape the "doom and gloom" of an ever so close destruction of this world.

Just say the following...

Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.

I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.

You said in the bible that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved.

Right now I confess Jesus as my Lord. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved. Amen.


"The Bible is the word of God because God inspired scholars, theologians and apostles to put it together."

Than I agree with because God is the creator of all things but in this the Bible is not alone many other valuable books have been inspired by God. Just because God inspired something does not mean it is true just that it is valuable.

"they'll read the daily paper and believe it first before they believe the "good book". Folks believe in the stock market, take stock in the farmers almanac, believe the weather forecaster, etc."

Are you kidding me, they don't believe and trust those things, most smart people take that all with a grain of salt.

"Every time you sit down in a chair you involuntarily have 'Faith" that it's going to hold you up."

Most times I sit in a chair I believe it will hold me up because I can tell it is a sturdy chair, has nothing to do with "Faith." Some times I doubt the chair and will gingerly try it out. We trust chairs because they have been tested and proven good. Same with the Bible, some parts tested and some parts are proven good some are unbelievable.

"I took a step of faith and was totally transformed into something I don't regret to this day! God has done some big time, fancy work in my life that otherwise wouldn't have happened without Him!"

Well lucky you. Sad that you need fancy work. All credit does go to God. God is the giver of all things.

"Just say the following..."

Do you understand that belief by rote repetition of doctrine is a powerful form of brainwashing. Churches do it, Schools do it, the military training camps do it, terrorists camps do it, socialists do it. That does create faith, belief but it is a trap. It is not faith through understanding, it is brainwashing.

Tim

[dtknowles]

tim, stop believing the things you look for in your own head......read this..Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8 "for by grace you have been saved through FAITH, and this is not YOUR own doing; it is the gift of God." verse 9 "not a result of works, so that no one may boast."....this is why i believe and what i believe.

"stop believing the things you look for in your own head"

You have no idea of where I have gotten my beliefs so maybe I can help you. I don't make up my beliefs. I look to God's expression of his values in his creations including but not exclusively the bibles. God shows us the way all around us. We can see what is good and what is bad. What is right and what is wrong. What works and what does not work. It is an almost certainty that ideas that are repeated in different religious texts from all around the world from different times are good ideas. Jesus repeated may of those ideas that were written before he had been born. Heaven and Hell are Abrahamic ideas not commonly believed before the establishment of the Catholic Church and the colonization of large parts of the world by Catholic European Explorers.

If you wonder what Heaven is like look to a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. Nirvana. Peace. We become one with God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

ill let God judge me at the pearly gates. Not you. Ill pray to him to show you the path too.

Seriously, do you believe there are pearly gates? I will pray for God to show you the path as well, I think you don't understand the true path. God will look into your heart, no need to stop by the pearly gates. I don't think God is going to be explaining his decision to you at some pearly gates. Most likely when you die you just be gone though some will become one with God. Sadly some will just haunt the world suffering with denial of obliteration or oneness with God, stuck in between. That is probably the worst hell.

Tim

[ascast]

A world run by Democrats?

[exile]

"The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass." Revelation 21:21, NKJV.

Always wondered if there was a verse to substantiate that "pearly gates" stuff. Ain't the internet wonderful?

exile

[Rizzo]

If you wonder what Heaven is like look to a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. Nirvana. Peace. We become one with God.

Tim

"Dismiss this phantasma of disease and health, sorrow and joy. Rise above it. Become the Self. Watch the show of the universe, but do not become absorbed in it. Many times I have seen my body gone from this world.

I laugh at death.
I am ready anytime.
There is nothing to it.
Eternal life is mine.

I am the ocean of consciousness. Sometimes I become the little wave of the body, but I am never just the wave without the Ocean of God." - Paramahansa Yogananda

[a danl]

"stop believing the things you look for in your own head"

You have no idea of where I have gotten my beliefs so maybe I can help you. I don't make up my beliefs. I look to God's expression of his values in his creations including but not exclusively the bibles. God shows us the way all around us. We can see what is good and what is bad. What is right and what is wrong. What works and what does not work. It is an almost certainty that ideas that are repeated in different religious texts from all around the world from different times are good ideas. Jesus repeated may of those ideas that were written before he had been born. Heaven and Hell are Abrahamic ideas not commonly believed before the establishment of the Catholic Church and the colonization of large parts of the world by Catholic European Explorers.

If you wonder what Heaven is like look to a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. Nirvana. Peace. We become one with God.

Tim

tim, the reason you know the difference between good and bad is because God has written his laws in your heart and you are having a hard time understanding that. you are not taking seriously the warnings of Jesus about salvation.

[.429&H110]

Thank you for explaining your belief system.
I thought you might be a Me-ist.
Worshiping your Ford as yourself.
My mistake, I'm truely sorry.
I cannot help evangelizing to the lost.
If they ask.
Glad I am you are not a Me-ist.
Your Ford is not eternal.
Mine went to Hell one day.
Perished in the lake of fire...

Oh, listing Catholic holidays,
you forgot
Halloween, Valentine's day,
New Year's and Labor day.
Halloween is Christmas
without thank you notes.

Sample program
works for me:

100 There is a God
200 I am not God
300 Thank You Jesus! else go to 200
400 If you love Him, then serve Him.
500 There is no end

Hell is irrelevant,
unless you choose hell.
Choose life, joy, service!
Where's your joy?
EIS TON AIONA
(aiona eye-on-eh Koine
is eon in English)
-forever- Heb 5:6
and 5:11 Amen

[alamogunr]

"Hell is truth seen too late": Thomas Hobbes

[a danl]

"Hell is truth seen too late": Thomas Hobbes

i never heard
that one , it's good

[.429&H110]

+1 on that!

[dtknowles]

tim, the reason you know the difference between good and bad is because God has written his laws in your heart and you are having a hard time understanding that. you are not taking seriously the warnings of Jesus about salvation.

I have no problem understanding that I have a God given conscience that informs me about good and bad, right and wrong. In informs me in ways that no written law can define. You can argue about what rules mean and laws mean but you can't argue with the feeling in your heart. Jesus has nothing to do with it. It comes right from God.

Tim

[Josko]

I believe that the Father and the Good Shephered Yeshua is a perfect judge and His Judgement on the wicked will be Hell Fire.
1 Peter 4:18

And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

2 Peter 2
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

[Dieselhorses]

I have no problem understanding that I have a God given conscience that informs me about good and bad, right and wrong. In informs me in ways that no written law can define. You can argue about what rules mean and laws mean but you can't argue with the feeling in your heart. Jesus has nothing to do with it. It comes right from God.

Tim

Hate to break it to you but...

"John 14:6-11
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

[dtknowles]

Hate to break it to you but...

"John 14:6-11
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

The man was bragging on himself. It is only in the Bible which I have said many times has a lot in it I do not believe.

Tim

[Josko]

We've already been down this road before. I know you disagree with me. But to suggest the people that have reached the conclusion I have are not honest...well, that is just ridiculous.

Have you taken a fresh look at the idea of annihilation vs never-ending conscious torment? Or are you just operating on what you have been told from a young age?

I studied the idea of annihilation with great apprehension. I had always believed the (modern) traditional view of hell (this was my fixed belief). But my mind was changed when I looked at all the passages.

My view now is that the teaching of eternal torment is in direct contradiction to the Bible's teaching, contrary to the character of God and an embarrassment to the Church.

Can you actually tell someone their kind old grandmother is being tortured for eternity in Hell because she was a non-believer? You really think God is like that?

Romans 3
10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

[Get-The-Lead-Out]

Before asking if you believe in hell, first you have to ask yourself if you believe in a supernatural God/Creator who created all things, and if you don't, then the only other choice you have for the creation is that:

1) Matter brings itself into existence from nothingness
2) All the properties of physics that are needed to control how matter behaves, brought themselves into existence from nothingness
3) Matter came together from the vastness of the universe or it already was compressed into a 'dot' having all of the right components that from a violent explosion/expansion creates EXTREMELY INTRICATE planets, solar systems, etc
4) Non-living matter has the ability to create living matter
5) From 'goo pools, living matter 'crawled' out of it whereby eventually evolving into apes and then humans evolved from the apes....and to this day all ape-to-man missing links (transitional forms) have been proven fraudulent:
a. After catching atheist paleontologists red handed mixing 'monkey' bones with human bones
b. Only having literally one tooth and then GROSSLY hyping up that one single tooth into being a whole ape/man-like creature in their pictures of it
c. Their other missing link skeleton was proven by DNA to only be an extinct species of ape.
d. Other missing link skeletons of theirs, only having what amounts to a handful of bones and a partial skull that they hired artists to fill in the rest of the grotesquely missing skeletal structure to then resemble what their imagination thinks an ape-to-man skeleton should look like in order to keep promoting their ludicrous fairy-tale propaganda that's literally taught as fact for happening the way they claim