S&W Scandium J-frame durability with magnum loads

[fatelk]

A friend has a new revolver, a Model 360 I think. It's a lightweight, scandium frame 5-shot .357 Magnum revolver.

He wants to reload for it, and he thinks he wants to shoot large quantities of full magnum loads in it. Given the historical durability issues with K-frame S&W revolver and .357 magnum ammo, I have to wonder how these little alloy J-frames can hold up.

It seems that they are really intended (as a pocket gun) for occasional use, and not really high volume shooting or competition. I wonder what this little revolver will look like after a thousand rounds of magnum ammo. Any ideas?

[Outpost75]

Posting this again so that you don't have to search the archives.

267351

The S&W 340PD pictured is a .357 J-frame. During annual requal cop fired 5 rds of 38 +P 135 gr HP Gold Dot SB. Chunk that came off hit the instructor running the course (no injury). Low round count, just carried a lot in an ankle rig. It continued to run after the chunk came off (round 2 or 3 of 5) as the shooter did not notice it.

Apparent stress corrosion cracking initiated by notch sensitivity. The failure crack most likely originated from a tool mark left over from broaching the cylinder recess in the frame. S&W would be well advised to increase the filet radius as well as improving surface finish in the filet and/or shot peening. Looking at the brown stain adjacent fracture looks familiar, this appears to have been working a while and picked this time to let go.

A cop-armorer friend in SoCal had to send 2 or 3 standard aluminum J frames (642/442) back to S&W that cracked the frame at 6 O’Clock below the forcing cone. S&W said that happens sometimes from hoop stress transferred through the aluminum when the machine screws on the barrel or when they thread the frame for the barrel. They replaced the entire gun each time.

The so-called S&W "lifetime warranty" has its limitations. The same now-retired LE armorer bought himself a retirement-gift all steel 640 and the “hammer stud” broke off flush with the frame with a few hundred rounds on board. From the gitgo dry firing it did not feel quite right, but was still working as the side plate kind of holds the stud (pin) in place...When he popped off the side plate he saw the internal parts slightly shifted...well that’s not normal.

267352 Scandium Night-Guard KaBoom

For a number of reasons I won’t get into S&W needed to replace the frame (they can’t repair aluminum frames so those are replaced when this happens) they sent him a bill for $145 even though they said it had nothing to do with anything he had done. I had to get the local S&W LE rep involved and even he could not explain why this fell outside the normal “lifetime” warranty. Somehow he eventually made the bill go away. Those without a badge or retired credential probably won't be as lucky.

A broken hammer stud is becoming more common with the shift to MIM. Especially on the N frames. Machinist buddy fixes a lot of them because guys don’t want to wait 30-60 days for S&W “service”. As for screwing on barrels, they sure torque'em on tight. Forcing cone constriction has been a problem with the late production guns I’ve inspected. It's usually $100 gunsmith fix to set back and refit, but shouldn’t be necessary if they fitted correctly just cut a UNF-Class 2A thread, not a 3A, then just screw it in correctly and pin it, Like they did in the old days. One of many reasons I prefer the older revolvers. That stud as now manufactured is now a MIM part press fit into a slightly raised collar instead of being screwed into the frame. The repair is to drill it out and then tap thread the frame and install a new stud the old fashioned way.

Reinforces my gut instinct that "an old gun that works is worth more than a new gun that doesn't."

None of my older (1970s) S&W Model 12 Airweight M&P .38 Specials have failed firing standard pressure (NOT +P!) loads.

[Baltimoreed]

Why?, it’s a lightweight self defense revolver built to be carried a lot but shot a little, imo. I guess it could be but why beat the gun up or your hand and wrist. I worked with several guys over the years who had to deal with carpel tunnel issues, a very painful disabilitating condition. He needs a 2 inch s/s K frame if he wants a pocket .357. You don’t gain much velocity anyway shooting a magnum out of a snubnose as the bbl is so short. My .38 scandium j frame is loaded with hornady critical defense +P ammo which is plenty for me.

[Walks]

Firing several hundred rounds in a scandium frame .357Mag, seems like an exercise in masochism.
I fired a M60 in .357Mag when they first came out. Actually fired 2 rounds.
Never again.

[Gar10]

Some have had problems and others never have an issue. The only thing you can hope for is if it has a catastrophic failure you will still have all your appendages to call the factory and utilize the lifetime warranty.

I own the 340PD and love it. I will continue to trust it, because I’ve seen numerous other types of guns fail that are not scandium.

[243winxb]

Practice with the M60. Carry the 337PD. Both in 38 Special. The 38 +P ammo in a 10 oz gun is all the recoil anyone may want ?

The titanium cylinder can have issues also.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

His hand will probably quit before the gun does.

[country gent]

I have a 360 scandium Smith in 357 mag. It is a fine carry gun and plenty accurate. Several have tried it out with 38 spl wadcutters ( 2.7 grns bullseye) 38 spl std 38 spl plus P ( most stop here) and a few with 357 mag ( I normally have a box of the speer short barrel load in the pistol box) none have fired more than 2 rounds before stopping. Im one who stopped at 38 +p 135 grn loads, :p.

At the light weight of 12 ounces even the light bullseye wadcutter load is a handfull for most. recoil is violently quick and sharp.

Its a great carry gun and mine rides in a suit coat pocket or clipped in my jeans with a set of hip grips.

The most comfortable load Ive shot in it is a 5/8" long wax bullet with a large pistol primer for power. This is comfortable to shoot and very accurate.

[JWFilips]

His hand will probably quit before the gun does.

You betcha!
They are CC pistols not shooting pistols! Not at all fun to shoot until it is necessary!

[curioushooter]

I practice with my 442 almost ever week. I carry Federal 130 grain HSTs 38 SPL +Ps, which are the best ammo you can put in a airlight or airweight J-frame whether 357 or 38 rated. Low recoil, accurate, and the best gel performance there is. I've done a lot of testing myself and it even defeats barriers well...a steel cookie sheet and plywood and it still went 9 inches and expanded over a half-inch.

I duplicated that load with a 130 grain Lee RNFP bullet to shot same POI at 21 feet. Can't really afford to practice with $1/round ammo. Literally thousands of rounds in an no trouble other than a filthy revolver. I only shoot 25 rounds in a session and always check to see if any lead accumulates in the forcing cone, throats, and then clean it if some does.

One of the great things about a common $350 revolver is that I don't mind so much if I ruin it. I would feel very differntly about the scandies which cost twice that, though I do like that they have pinned front sights. I always carry a flashlight and practice with it (even during the day sometimes). I think a bump-n-trough and flashlight beats any fancy night sight as long as the sight IS BLACK. The 442 and 340s don't have this problem, but it is hard to see the 642s/638s with intense light overhead.

The late Steve Camp wrote a good book on these revolvers if you want to read it. His wife still sells it. His newspaper ballistic testing is next to worthless IMO but everything else in the book is sound advice.

[DHDeal]

Firing several hundred rounds in a scandium frame .357Mag, seems like an exercise in masochism.
I fired a M60 in .357Mag when they first came out. Actually fired 2 rounds.
Never again.

I have this little fire breathing dragon. It's a heavyweight in comparison to the Scandium versions but it still is impressive from the back end. I shoot a medium level 357 load with a 158 grain MP Hammer GCHP at 1050 fps. Not fun exactly, but accurate and controllable. The Federal 125 JHP Magnum load is something I've fired a cylinder full and called it good. I did keep it loaded with them for years, but it was not fun and not controllable.

I can't imagine shooting what the OP described often. If nothing else he could start forest fires with the muzzle blast and the wicked flinch could be a conversation starter.

[gpidaho]

It's not just the S&Ws in light 357s that will beat you up. S.I.L and I took my daughters Ruger LCR carry gun to the range with some full tilt 357 ammo. 10gr. Blue Dot under 158gr. SWC Didn't take long to get tired of that. LOL Gp

[5Shot]

I'd never buy one new...you can get a great deal on used ones that have only had a cylinder full of 357 Mag through them.

[DHDeal]

I'd never buy one new...you can get a great deal on used ones that have only had a cylinder full of 357 Mag through them.

Kinda like a Freedom Arms 83 in 454. Great idea at the time, but turn it loose and....

[Texas by God]

When Taurus brought out the first snub .357, a friend bought one. I shot 5 158gr Remington .357s through it. He asked me what I thought, and I told the truth. My opinion then and now is that you need additional power for self defense, get a 4” full size revolver rather than a marketing ploy. IMO, .38 Special, 9mm, .32 Magnum and ilk are THE effective snub nose rounds because they are shootable for good hits.

[gpidaho]

When Taurus brought out the first snub .357, a friend bought one. I shot 5 158gr Remington .357s through it. He asked me what I thought, and I told the truth. My opinion then and now is that you need additional power for self defense, get a 4” full size revolver rather than a marketing ploy. IMO, .38 Special, 9mm, .32 Magnum and ilk are THE effective snub nose rounds because they are shootable for good hits. I agree. For a carry gun don't over do it. In a defensive situation you aren't likely coming up against a brown bear or bull moose at least not in the city limits. Bad guys are pretty thin skinned as critters go. I don't feel under gunned with my 32 H&R snubbie or my 380 LCP and either carries so comfortably that they are almost forgotten. Gp

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have a 3" model 60 pro series. 125 gr. hp loads are not punishing with it but I only shot 5 rds. of that. It gets hbwc or lswc over a reasonable load of bullseye. Why beat up a small snubbie with magnum loads? I had a 3" SP 101 that could handle magnum loads all day. Buying a new revolver these days is a crap shoot. I have recently purchased 3 revolvers and the newest one was born in 1987, the oldest in 1956. That model 60 is the only one newer than 30 years old. It's got a great action and shoots good. Hope it lasts.

[LinotypeIngot]

I'd never buy one new...you can get a great deal on used ones that have only had a cylinder full of 357 Mag through them.

This is exactly how I got my M&P340...it also came with a couple of partially full boxes of ammo.

[vonfilm]

I have a Scandium/ Titanium 340 SC. This is a good reminder never to use .357 ammo in it. Currently mine is loaded with the "FBI Load".38 Special +P 158 grain SWCHP.

I also a a L frame 386 Mountain Lite Scandium /Titanium. It has done well for me with .357 ammunition. Snappy, but not punishing recoil with the Pachymyer Sorbothane grips. I think I will greatly limit full power .357 magnum use in this revolver in the future.At 18 ounces unloaded, it is great to carry. I don't want to wear it out.

[Gray Fox]

My sweet wife once bought me one of the fancy briefcase hardcase 3"396s for my birthday. I have shot two full cylinders of a friend's .50 S&W mag loaded with factory 420 grain lead flatnose boolits and it was very manageable compared to the 396 shooting factory Gold Dot HPs. A year or so later I quietly got rid of it in a trade and it's one that I'll never miss. I'm working up some moderately loaded .44 Special full wadcutters for my to Charter Arms .44s and I'll call it good. Oh, I do have one of the Pro Series 640s with front and rear night sites and a Crimson Trace laser (traded for it that way). I've shot full power .357s in it, but carry Rem .38 110 grain +P HPs in it. It's pretty handy with the moon clips and much more comfortable. I may work up some of the full wadcutter .357 loads that have been discussed here lately that are loaded moderately. GF

[Ramjet-SS]

The hardest recoiling gun I have ever shot just freaking brutal with full house 357 magnum rounds

[warboar_21]

I shot a cylinder full of 125gr full power magnum. My pinky and ring finger went numb for weeks and took even longer for my full grip strength to come back.

I will agree with all the above posters that say he will not shoot many before he decides to stick with low power 38 spl loads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fatelk]

I sat there and watched him shoot half a box of full magnum loads through it, with a big grin on his face. He offered it to me to try, and I politely declined. I’m still “on the sunny side of fifty” but I’m way past the time in my life when I enjoyed such pain.

It’s funny; I’m a fan of the .44 Magnum, and a few years back I looked down my nose at downloading it, like a lot of you guys do. If I’m going to shoot a magnum, I wanted to shoot a magnum! Kind of like driving a high-performance sports car on a leisurely drive in the country. I want to go fast!

Now I’m getting to the point where I understand it. A couple cylinders of full house .44 mags and I’m pretty much done. It’s just not fun anymore. Downloaded to about 80%, and I’m good for a box or two.

[ebner glocken]

This is exactly how I got my M&P340...it also came with a couple of partially full boxes of ammo.

This is exactly how I ended up owning a 329 and a 360J. Great to carry, I do believe recoil is subjective. Shooting the 329 reminds me of shooting a full house 454 casull as far as impulse. The 357 really digs into the web of the hand mostly due to the narrow footprint of the grip and gripframe and thus seems more painful to me than the .44. I own a number of revolvers that outclass the .44 mag by a fair margin so my datum may be a bit different. The wood grips are on mine as rubber tends to drag on clothing.

Neither of them were purchased by me for anywhere near full price and also before the gun buying madness going on currently. The titanium cylinder on the 329 wasn't even stained yet. I figure 6 rounds and the original owner had enough. They're not for everyone but there's worse things to touch off.

Ebner

[Baltimoreed]

268813
I bought a set of these Ergo grips for my scandium j-frame and would never go back to the boot grip style. They look weird but work great. They make the gun much easier to shoot. I also had my revolver cut for moon clips, another great revolver mod.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I like the idea of the alloy j frames. Makes it so much easier to be armed. But I would not subject one to a lot of full bore rounds.

[samari46]

I've seen some pics on the S&W forums about the scandium frames and cylinders. Looks like someone took a cutting torch to the fave of the cylinder. If I remember right the 110 and 125 grain bullets are the ones to stay away from. Something about high speed bullets and hot powders being very hard on the cylinder faces. Frank

[Three44s]

268813
I bought a set of these Ergo grips for my scandium j-frame and would never go back to the boot grip style. They look weird but work great. They make the gun much easier to shoot. I also had my revolver cut for moon clips, another great revolver mod.

I never thought of that but it makes good sense!

The radical grip angle of that grip gives your wrist more degrees of rotation before it runs out. Also more of the recoil impulse is absorbed into your arm before the wrist has rotated very far.

Three44s

[Three44s]

My take on .357 in a small framed snub Gun is to get a Ruger SP101 and don’t look back.

Three44s

[Cosmic_Charlie]

My take on .357 in a small framed snub Gun is to get a Ruger SP101 and don’t look back.

Three44s

I like those too, have a .38 police trade in. But the scandium framed Smith's can ride nicely in a coat pocket because they are light. Or in an ankle holster for deep cover.

[Rodfac]

A tongue in cheek response would be, "the gun'll last longer than his wrist will, firing that featherweight cannon with full house magnums!"

In my case, I routinely carry a S&W M60, all SS, .357 with a Hogue monogrip installed. It's manageable, but still a handful for 2nd, & 3rd follow on shots. Mine is a 3" full lugged barrel too. I've been a competitive handgun shooter for over 50 years now, and still have a powerful grip but still find this rather heavy M60 a challenge. It is not comfortable for a full morning's range session with moderate to heavy loads.

YMMv Rod BTW, my carry load is the Gold Dot 135 gr .38 Special +P...not only for its superb performance and lighter recoil, but also as the shorter .38 Special case ejects and speed loads more uniformly from any J-frame Smith....a point to consider.

[Lloyd Smale]

i had a 396. Shot it alot. The forcing cone started to erode about the same time my hand was starting to erode from shooting it. That gun made me bleed about everytime i shot it with any real load and id rather shoot full power 500 linebaugh loads out of a 4 inch bisley then that gun. Traded it on a 696 and it was the best trade i ever made. The scandium guns are great to carry alot and shoot seldom. only exception might be a 329 shooting loads at the level i was in the 44 spec. Go steel youll never regret it.

[Three44s]

I shot a 329 with nearly full house magnum loads and was very impressed. As I already have the all stainless Mountain Gun I am sticking with it though.

Three44s

[Sc0]

Early serial number 340PD, CJD. Some cylinder erosion on the front face in which I haven't sent it in for yet, also had a weld bead on the hammer which caused a horrendous trigger pull and scarred the inside of the frame until it was discovered and removed. Shot about 50rds of 158gr lead .357 magnum, actually jammed up the cylinder a few times due to recoil pulling the bullets loose, only shoot .38spl out of it now and to keep things lightweight I prefer the CCI Aluminum cased 158gr +p. For carrying heavier .357 158gr loads I prefer my 3" model 60, or a larger K or N frame.