.45 ACP. 200gr SWC vs heavier HP?

[PNW_Steve]

Hey Everyone,

I don't want to sound like a fruitloop but I am very concerned and uncertain about what is going on in our country these days. I am feeling the need to be prepared for thing that I never would have thought could occur here.

I hope that I am wasting my time but I am setting in supplies for a SHTF situation.

One item on my list is .45ACP ammo. Ideally I would load up a bunch of 230gr HP's. Unfortunately I don't have them on hand and don't have a mold.

I do have 3000+ 200 gr SWC's. Does anyone have any data on the effectiveness of a cast 200 gr SWC as a defensive round?

I know that it is not ideal. I wonder if it would be adequate? Or would it be not worth the trouble?

I am hoping to avoid sourcing and spending $$ on molds and lead to cast HP's when I have 3000 SWCs on the shelf. I would rather spend that money on powder.

What do you all think?

[scattershot]

Never shot anything with them, but I can’t see a 200 Grain .45 caliber bullet at 900-1000 fps not doing the job. Remember, a .45 starts out at what other calibers aspire to.

[yovinny]

JMB's original 1905 model 45 bullet weight was 200gr at 900fps,,, The Ordnance Dept wanted it heavier and upped it to 230gr at 850fps for increased penetration in the 1911 model.
It's been said, that call was based on experience of needing to shoot through horses.
I cant imagine it would really make a lot of difference with a good placement hit on a fragile human body...

[skeettx]

200 Semi's are just fine and hope you never need to use them for social stuff.
Mike

[tazman]

I can't imagine a situation where a 45 caliber 200 grain SWC boolit would not be adequate at the very least for defensive purposes.
Most listed starting loads give 850fps or more. Full power loads are in excess of 900fps. You would have a minimum of a 45 caliber hole clear through a person with all the associated tissue damage from that meplat.
I consider them more than adequate.
The only thing a heavier boolit would do is give more penetration on heavier targets.

[TNsailorman]

A .45 bullet in 200grain SWC going at 850 to 900 fps will most likely pass completely through a human body. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to 230 grain weight at the same velocity. Now that would be a pounder.

[fredj338]

IMO, a shtf scenario, type of bullet wont matter. What will matter is do you have a gun & ammo for it & more importantly, do you have the training & skill to deploy it effectively? Mere possession of gun & ammo means little IMO. Its just part of surviving a self defense situation.

[mvozz]

A few years ago before I started casting, I was talking to the folks at Montana Gold Bullets about their 124gr HP. Knowing that they sell mostly target rounds for competition, I asked if they thought this would make a good defensive round. With a chuckle in his voice the salesman said, "Sir, at the right velocity everything is a good defensive round". Apply that thought to your 45 and you will be just fine.:D

[WinchesterM1]

Back when I used a pistol hunt a whole bunch are used to use the Lee 200 grain semi wadcutter that I used to cast it soft and push it pretty hard around 1100 ft./s I killed a lot of deer with that load and only had them run 20-30 yards.

I shot one deer right through the vitals with it at about 15 feet away after I gut the deer I was hanging it in a tree and I remember seeing light through the exit and entrance hole where it looked like someone took a sharpened pipe and ran it right through the deer, it cut a perfect hole through both sides of the deer, this was out of a Glock 21

[Petrol & Powder]

To address the first issue of a 200gr SWC bullet for 45 ACP, I believe that flat point bullet cast from relatively soft alloy would be more than adequate as a fight stopper.

Now, let's talk about the concern for the current situation.
We, as a nation, have been through this mess before. There are many historical examples to draw from but the key is to keep your wits about you. Fear is powerful and a poison.

The civil rights movement of the early 1960's
The Vietnam War protests of pretty much the entire 1960's
The large scale civil unrest of the 1960's and 1970's
A couple of oil shortages
Natural disasters
Economic Recessions and depressions. Inflation and unemployment
The dust bowl
The Spanish Flu
Wars
Terrorist attacks

WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH TOUGH TIMES BEFORE AND THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST TOUGH TIME.

Take a moment, get away from the rhetoric, the hype, and mostly the fear.
Are you, your family and friends safe?
Are there REASONABLE steps that can be taken to improve your situation? That may be financial. That may be planning for reduced income. That may be as simple as a contact list for your family members.

Make rational decisions based logic do not react based on fear.

[onelight]

The main difference today and in the past is we have a major political party as part of this rioting , murder and property destruction done by a bunch of Marxist . They have the bulk of the educational system the bulk of the media and the Democratic Party .
The silent majority better speak up.

[oldsalt444]

Your 200 SWC boolits will do just fine for defense. That big flat meplat will transfer energy into the target in a big way. Anywhere in the 800-900 fps range will easily change the attitude of any 2 legged predator.

[Petrol & Powder]

The main difference today and in the past is we have a major political party as part of this rioting , murder and property destruction done by a bunch of Marxist . They have the bulk of the educational system the bulk of the media and the Democratic Party .
The silent majority better speak up.

Regardless of what forces may or may not be in the background, political and class strife is nothing new.

[Gunslinger1911]

I cast and carry a MiHec 230g HP - picture a heavier Speer flying ashtray;
for decades I cast and carried a H&G 68 (200g SWC). Didn't feel under gunned at all.

[gwpercle]

Remember ...the boolit is already .45" ...it doesn't have to be a hollow point .
SWC's hit hard , 200 grain 45 cal SWC at 900 fps will do the job quite nicely .

I cast the 200 Gr. SWC , Lyman #452460 , and load it over a maximum charge of 7.5 grains of Unique for 980 fps , according to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition this is a max. load Note... might want to start at 7.0 grains and work up .

I worked up this 7.5 gr. Unique load years ago when it wasn't a maximum load (Speer Manual #8 1967 ) ... This was my "serious business" load and very accurate from my 1911 AMT Hardballer .

Load up those 200 grain SWC's to 900 - 950 fps and fear no evil !
Don't let them not being a hollow point or not being jacketed bother you ...they don't need either .
Gary

[onelight]

Regardless of what forces may or may not be in the background, political and class strife is nothing new.
For sure it's , been around as long as man.

[Martin Luber]

Use factory! Seriously....

[PNW_Steve]

Use factory! Seriously....

Sorry, I didn't win the lottery. Seriously!

[alamogunr]

I haven't actually loaded these yet but I think I would rather trust this bullet than a SWC similar to a H&G 68.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?380582-CLOSED-Arsenal-New-Design-45-230-wfn-45-acp-45-colt&highlight=arsenal+mold

[PNW_Steve]

Thank you all for your input. I am convinced �� The SWCs it is.

I have loaded a ton of them in the past but for target not defensive. I push them at around 800fps. I am going to load some up based on the recommendations above and give them a try.

Thanks again.

[PNW_Steve]

To address the first issue of a 200gr SWC bullet for 45 ACP, I believe that flat point bullet cast from relatively soft alloy would be more than adequate as a fight stopper.

Now, let's talk about the concern for the current situation.
We, as a nation, have been through this mess before. There are many historical examples to draw from but the key is to keep your wits about you. Fear is powerful and a poison.

The civil rights movement of the early 1960's
The Vietnam War protests of pretty much the entire 1960's
The large scale civil unrest of the 1960's and 1970's
A couple of oil shortages
Natural disasters
Economic Recessions and depressions. Inflation and unemployment
The dust bowl
The Spanish Flu
Wars
Terrorist attacks

WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH TOUGH TIMES BEFORE AND THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST TOUGH TIME.

Take a moment, get away from the rhetoric, the hype, and mostly the fear.
Are you, your family and friends safe?
Are there REASONABLE steps that can be taken to improve your situation? That may be financial. That may be planning for reduced income. That may be as simple as a contact list for your family members.

Make rational decisions based logic do not react based on fear.

Don't worry. I am not headed out to the wood to build a compound :)

I am in a rural area and we dealt with a number of shortages as far as food and household items through the Covid shutdown. If something similar or worse happens I don't want to get caught as unprepared as I was for Covid.

I also want to be prepared for extended shortages of ammo.

[Petrol & Powder]

You'll be fine.

When this current madness settles down (and it will) slowly build up what you think you will need to weather the next storm.

The time to outfit the lifeboats is when you're in port, not in the middle of the storm.

I strongly suspect when the election is over, most of this madness will evaporate. If the conservatives win the left will have a giant fit for a little while but that will burn itself out like a 5 year old kid on a sugar high.

America has been through hard times before and this will not be the last time.

[Texas by God]

5grains of Bullseye, seat your bullet correctly for feeding reliability, and load a bunch. As Winchester M1 stated; they will perform. I killed a bad attitude 700 lb Brangus cow with one shot to the fore head a few years back with that load. She had already injured two cowboys and a blue healer before I lost my temper.

[MT Gianni]

The idea behind most hp's is that they can expand to 45 caliber. Go dance with the one you brought to the dance.

[USSR]

While I agree that a 200gr SWC will serve just fine, a slightly heavier SWCHP such as the 225gr HP on the left does an awesome job.

Don

267216

[Gunslinger1911]

Use factory! Seriously....

Ummmm...... Why ?

[GhostHawk]

I admit my main bullet for .45acp is the Lee .230 gr truncated cone.

Shoots well, feeds well, has enough meplat to do serious damage. Why would you need anything else?

The majority of mine are a little warm, but they are for feeding the Hipoint carbine. The SA 1911 can handle them all right, but it takes a little bigger dose of intestinal fortitude.

Best of all they are available in a lee 6 cavity, so boolits "Rain" out of the mold.

[PNW_Steve]

5grains of Bullseye, seat your bullet correctly for feeding reliability, and load a bunch. As Winchester M1 stated; they will perform. I killed a bad attitude 700 lb Brangus cow with one shot to the fore head a few years back with that load. She had already injured two cowboys and a blue healer before I lost my temper.

Pretty close. I have found that 5.2gr is the sweet spot for me punching holes in paper.

I may tinker with a little hotter load to see how it plays.

[mdi]

I have 2, "Just In Case" loads for my 45 ACP guns. One is a 230 FMJ over a "classic" load of Bullseye and this load functions perfectly in my 3, 45 ACP guns. I keep roughly 800-900 rounds handy. I also have a JIC load for my 1911 which is a 200 gr. SWC loaded to just under 900 fps. (my Ruger P90 chokes on this load 2 out of 8 or 9 rounds). I have never relied on hand gun bullets "expanding" on target but rather bullet design for effectiveness. I am convinced that a 45 ACP, 200 gr. SWC traveling at 850-875 fps will be a quick fight ender. I like my high capacity 9mm pistols (which I also keep a bunch of JIC ammo for), but I am comfortable, and feel very "protected" by my 1911, which has never failed to work properly...

[Outpost75]

Hollow-points may fail to give adequate penetration. I would stick with solids having the largest meplat that feeds reliably. Comparisons of .45 ACP hardball, JHP and SWC loads based upon the MacPhearson WTI model. Hardball actually looks pretty good!

267382267383267384

[USSR]

Ed,

It's rare that I disagree with you, but in this case, the only bullet that you show a chart for that passes the FBI Penetration Criteria is the 230gr mushroomed bullet.


To meet the FBI penetration standard, a handgun bullet must consistently penetrate on average a minimum of 12 inches and a maximum or 18 inches into ballistics gelatin.

230gr Hardball shows 26" of penetration. Can't imagine what I would personally be up against where I would need that level of penetration. However, I will say, always use a heavy for caliber hollowpoint to ensure adequate penetration. I would never rely on a 185gr or 200gr .45 hollowpoint bullet to provide sufficient penetration.

Don

[charlie b]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

For reference. Note the number of HP loads that don't expand.

The SWC is probably the most effective non-expanding bullet design ever made, IMHO. Cuts a clean hole and penetrates well. The only drawback is they do not feed well in some pistols.

[jaysouth]

A few years ago before I started casting, I was talking to the folks at Montana Gold Bullets about their 124gr HP. Knowing that they sell mostly target rounds for competition, I asked if they thought this would make a good defensive round. With a chuckle in his voice the salesman said, "Sir, at the right velocity everything is a good defensive round". Apply that thought to your 45 and you will be just fine.:D

I have 124 XTPs going 2,000 fps in a .357 MAX. would that work?

[jaysouth]

This is a Saeco 315. 215 gr. 45 swc. Lots of people use it for bowling pin matches. It feeds flawlessly. Look a the size of that meplat.

https://3l6fctfonm15nkjz4bz3j1eg-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/DSC2959-2-45Colt-SAECO-215GR.-SWC-BB.jpg

It feeds in all my 1911s. In normal times it is shipped immediately by Montana bullet works and Magnus. There is an 8 week wait for both.

[brewer12345]

I load the Lee copy of the HG68 in two flavors. Over 4.5 grains of bullseye it is a mild target load and very accurate. Over 7 grains of Unique it is a pretty much full power load and very accurate. I shoot some of the Unique load at paper, but I also use it as a woods carry load when I am not packing my Security Six with bear loads. What you get with 45 solids is penetration out the wazoo (possibly literally). Considering that I am planning to hunt cow elk (500 pound animals) next weekend with a 54 muzzleloader stoked with 230 grain round balls, I think a 200 grain 45 SWC will put a serious hole in a 200 pound 2 legged varmint if necessary.

[megasupermagnum]

I load the Lee copy of the HG68 in two flavors. Over 4.5 grains of bullseye it is a mild target load and very accurate. Over 7 grains of Unique it is a pretty much full power load and very accurate. I shoot some of the Unique load at paper, but I also use it as a woods carry load when I am not packing my Security Six with bear loads. What you get with 45 solids is penetration out the wazoo (possibly literally). Considering that I am planning to hunt cow elk (500 pound animals) next weekend with a 54 muzzleloader stoked with 230 grain round balls, I think a 200 grain 45 SWC will put a serious hole in a 200 pound 2 legged varmint if necessary.

A 54 caliber rifle with a round ball is an extraordinary killer. A 45 acp anything isn't even in the ballpark, but it does still work.

[Outpost75]

Ed,

It's rare that I disagree with you, but in this case, the only bullet that you show a chart for that passes the FBI Penetration Criteria is the 230gr mushroomed bullet. 230gr Hardball shows 26" of penetration. Can't imagine what I would personally be up against where I would need that level of penetration. However, I will say, always use a heavy for caliber hollowpoint to ensure adequate penetration. I would never rely on a 185gr or 200gr .45 hollowpoint bullet to provide sufficient penetration. Don

If primary concern is shooting people in an urban environment, I would agree.

I don't consider penetration over 18 inches to be a defect for carry in a rural area where you may need to shoot a large animal.

267529

[AndyC]

As long as they fed reliably, I'd have no issue using a 200gr SWC in a defensive engagement.

[USSR]

If primary concern is shooting people in an urban environment, I would agree.

I don't consider penetration over 18 inches to be a defect for carry in a rural area where you may need to shoot a large animal.

True, Ed.

Don

[Outpost75]

USSR, Thx.

If you research the old Reports of the Chief Of Ordnance in the National Archives, which I have done, and read Walker's reports from the Mexican War, as well as later accounts from Texas in fighting the Comanches, the requirement for a cavalry revolver was clearly established that it should be able to shoot through a galloping horse to kill an enemy hanging onto the off-side of the horse, firing over its back at you...

The .36 Colt Paterson proved thoroughly inadequate, so Walker recommended a revolver of larger caliber, 50 round balls to the pound, having an 8-inch barrel, using 40 grains of black powder... and the rest is history.

[Chad5005]

i just load a run of 185gr hollow points and 185 rnfp and would not be scare of either not performing,im thinking any bullet weight thats made in .452 will stop a man

[PhatForrest]

Just make sure they run in your gun ok. They function fine in my 1911, but not so hot in a Sig 220.

230gr TC runs great in everything.