paper patching round ball

[bigk]

Hello all.Big k from Ireland.Have been reading through a lot of posts on this forum for a few months.Really interesting.I would like to know how to paper patch round ball and if this would be suitable to bring up to size say a .600 ball that could then be fired through a half choke gun?.Would you think that the extra paper would cause less concern as regards the ball being too tight?.:drinks:

[missionary5155]

Greetings and WELCOME bigK !
As you have been reading the idea is to have a snug fit (about .003-.005) as the ball passes through the tightest part of the choke. As shotguns tend to have THIN walls you do not want to overstress your barrel. Some barrels are thick walled... but I would recommend you also measure the thickness of your barrel steel at the choke. I have seen a couple English "Bird Guns" I would NEVER shoot round balls through as the barrels are very thin compared to a Mossberg barrel wall thickness.
Are you shooting a 12 or 16 bore ?

[longbow]

I have paper patched a ball but not with much success accuracy wise. I decided to try 0.690" RB's paper patched since I was getting sheared petals with the wads I was using. I figured a paper tube wrapped to take up the slop would work better than a plastic wad when petals shear.

I just rolled a tube with the number of wraps to fill between the ball and bore then folded it underneath. Accuracy wasn't very good and I am thinking that unless the tube is supported the ball and tube may roll a little as they make the jump from hull to forcing cone then not be well aligned. If the tube leaves the muzzle at an angle it may not release the ball evenly or may cause it to spin.

Possibly if the tube was wrapped around a ball and 1/2" card wad together it would all stay aligned better. Haven't tried it.

As for fit through a choke, I think paper would be less forgiving than plastic wads. My feeling is that if you plan to proceed then you should not patch any larger than the tightest choke constriction.

If you could make or use a soft cardboard tube that was easily compressed then you might be okay.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[bigk]

Missionary and Longbow you two guys are a wealth of information and thank you for your replies.I would be shooting these balls through a Greener GP 12 guage which you may know is built like a tank.Maybe it would be wiser to use a wad specifically for steel shot and even use a piece of wrapping to make up the size?
I have not shot any round ball as yet but was considering reloading some as opposed to slugs,because over here slugs are hard to find.I would be shooting fox with these.
[smilie=f:[smilie=f:

[ihunts2much]

For shooting fox with a 12 ga I would consider loading up some shot shells anything from #4(US) bird shot to #4 buck would be my choice before a solid ball. A fox is a pretty small target and if you are within range to hit it with a ball, you can probably kill it cleanly with shot. Just my unprofessional opinion,do as you wish.

[Jim]

I think the difference between shooting a fox with #4 or #4B depends on whether or not you want to kill it because it's a varmint or because you see it as game.

[turbo1889]

I hate to be argumentative, but I have to strongly disagree with those suggesting that a fox is too small of a target for a single ball load.

I have personally shot small game with shotguns slugs -- to be specific, skunks. You see if you hit a slug in the head with a shotgun slug it dies without spraying. It's head and forward section of it's body completely vaporize with a well placed hit and it's "spray muscles" never get off a single squeeze. That's how you kill a slug with a fire-arm without stinking up the place. Granted I was doing it with the Lyman wad-slugs out of a scoped rifled bore at ranges between 25-50 yards but it can be done and done well (you don't want to miss with those targets).

Granted a fox moves a lot quicker then a skunk and a round ball out of a smooth bore isn't as accurate as a well loaded Lyman wad-slug out of a rifled bore. But I think it could be done.

As far as paper patching goes I'm not sure about that, but it could be worth a try.

[missionary5155]

Good morning ... I used to hunt fox with 12 gauge in Michigan. We exterminated 30+for 3 winter seasons in the Riverside Mich. area. I used a Iver Johnson Trap model with a 32 inch full choke barrel. Used the smaller buck shot and BB . Out to 40 rards it was DEAD fox. At 50 yards somewhat less but always had enough time to close after the first shot to 40 yards or less and finish the fox.
So whould I trade BB or Buck for a single ball to shoot fox ? NO I would not. Fox do not SPRAY so I rule out that need. Under 30 yards I think I COULD hit a fox with my RB load... but BB or small buckshot is a DEAD fox. Over 30 yards RB is iffy for me especially if the fox is moving. Again BB or Buck out to 40 yards is a DEAD fox. At 50 yards I can still hurt 50% real bad and the other 50% is hurt enough I can close and finish with buck. At 50 yards RB for me is just to iffy... I would pop a deer but fox are just to small.
I still carry 1 RB load with me whenever I leave home with my 12 bore. You just never know what is out there waiting to snarl and snap. And if a fox presented the opportunity I would poke a fine round hole through his thin red hide.

[ihunts2much]

"Under 30 yards I think I COULD hit a fox with my RB load... but BB or small buckshot is a DEAD fox. Over 30 yards RB is iffy for me especially if the fox is moving. Again BB or Buck out to 40 yards is a DEAD fox. At 50 yards I can still hurt 50% real bad and the other 50% is hurt enough I can close and finish with buck. At 50 yards RB for me is just to iffy..."

My point exactly Missionary!

[Jim]

Good point about the skunk, Turbo. I would never have thought of that. Do you think 00B in 12 gauge 3.5" magnum would do the same thing at 30 to 40 yds.?

[longbow]

bigk:

Another thought comes to mind here if you are still planning on using round ball. You might consider wrapping the ball in aluminum foil. Yes, I know it sounds odd and no I have never done it but I have read that in the N-SSA only allows use of bare lead balls or lead balls wrapped with aluminum foil. I douldn't find the original article but here is an excerpt from the rules:

"17.1.1 SMOOTHBORE PROJECTILES
Projectiles for smoothbore matches shall be round ball only. In a smoothbore firearm, the ball may be wrapped with aluminum foil, with or without grease; but the use of patches, paper or cloth, or over-powder wads or plastic wads is prohibited"

If the ball is under choke size with some clearance then a couple of wraps of crinkly foil may keep it centered in the bore but allow the "squish" though the choke.

Since smoothbore musket shooters claim accuracy of 3" at 75 yards with tight patched round ball, a modern cartridge shotgun "should" be able to do the same if fed right.

Yet another option is to attach a base wad to the ball AQ style. I have been experimenting with some success and some baffling failures but factory AQ's have given me excellent accuracy so I am trying to duplicate them with readily available components.

Keep is posted whatever you try.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

Good point about the skunk, Turbo. I would never have thought of that. Do you think 00B in 12 gauge 3.5" magnum would do the same thing at 30 to 40 yds.?

Too much risk of puncturing the "stink bladder"or not an instant kill -- you can do it with a medium to large size rifle cartridge (7x57, 308, 30-06, etc.) or a large bore pistol cartridge (44-mag, 45-Colt, etc.) but you must be a good shot and vaporize the head with your first shot -- or it's major stink time. Call it over kill if you wish but a 22-lr or even a 22-mag is not big enough to cut off the brain function utterly and completely in time to prevent a "reflex spray" reaction.

Now, I didn't say a large shot load wouldn't be a better idea for fox -- I would probably go with a load of shot somewhere between BB and #4 buck. But I do think it could be done with a single ball with a little work getting the load right and a little practice at the range if one was so inclined. However, if I was going to go the single ball route myself personally I would be using 0.412" ball cast from 30:1 and loaded to about 1,700-fps out of my Saiga-410 smooth bore no-choke gun with the right dot sight. Now that would kill fox !!!

[Three44s]

For Coyotes ..... two legged and four legged .... it's FOUR BUCK! .......... hands down!!!

For a Fox .... I would try four buck and even say T buck .........

For skunks ..... off topic ..... but we getting there .............:

Just plain old bird shot ....... even 7 1/2 works great.

My wife ... when we were dating ..... blasted two skunks with 7 1/2 shot (1 oz.) lead 12 ga. ........ NO SPRAY ......... ONE SHOT .......... Dead right there!!!!

She had never killed so much as a mouse until then ........

Three 44s

[10 ga]

As a long time fur hunter having good pelts in VERY important to me. I can say with authority that plated lead #4 to #2 shot in a regular tight choke gun will kill fox out to 40yds. If you want more range you need to trick out the gun with custom choke, let out forcing cone, chrome bore, etc... and the new heavier then lead shot in #2 to #4 size will give you 55yds of kill power. #4 buck or the new dead coyote T shot loads are better for coyote/bobcat size critters out to 60 yards with the proper gun. You can certainly kill them with slugs but aint no use to pick them up. 10 ga.

[JW6108]

As a long time fur hunter having good pelts in VERY important to me. I can say with authority that plated lead #4 to #2 shot in a regular tight choke gun will kill fox out to 40yds. If you want more range you need to trick out the gun with custom choke, let out forcing cone, chrome bore, etc... and the new heavier then lead shot in #2 to #4 size will give you 55yds of kill power. #4 buck or the new dead coyote T shot loads are better for coyote/bobcat size critters out to 60 yards with the proper gun. You can certainly kill them with slugs but aint no use to pick them up. 10 ga.

The recommendation for smaller shot agrees with my experience. A fox is really a small animal, at least down here in the South; one that would go 15 lbs. would be a very large one. I can't answer for them elsewhere. As such, we are much better served by dense patterns of smaller shot than with thin patterns of the larger shot sizes. I've killed them cleanly with #2, but have also done so with #6 as long as the range was not too great. Good luck.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

So... Your looking for something soft that ill firmly hold a lead ball in suspension while sealing all the expanding gases.


Preferably something Bio-Degradable, Inexpensive and would be just ducky if it actually vaporized upon leaving the barrel so as not to impact the accuacy of the bullet flight.




Well..... Why not use a common MARSHMELLOW!


Just push whatever size bullet you wished to shoot into the mashmellow and load it into your shotgun shell.




http://www.wildlife.pro/raccoon/images/marshmellow_bait.jpg

[Bullshop]

I dont know if this will have merrit with choked guns but I use this method of paper patching RB in non choke guns. Ever heard of the chase patch?
It was used in the early days for patching target boolits in ML rifles. The way I do it is to cut my patch paper in strips that are about the diameter of the ball wide and about 2 1/2 times as long. When loading the ball arange the paper strips on the muzzle in an x patern of sorts, depending on how many strips are needed to bring the ball up to desired diameter. Generally not more than three strips if the ball is close to the correct diameter for the bore in question. Then center the ball on the stripps and start it
This has worked out very well for me in fact I used this method to win our last ML postal match here at CB last winter. It brought me top honors in both the 50 yard off hand and 100 yard BR match. That match was fired with a 32 cal rifled bore but I have used it in large bore also. I have a very nice Italian made smooth 12 bore that I have use the chase patch in but I think there is little to no choke in it's barrel because I done feel much change in the fit once the ball is pushed past the muzzle.
If loading for a choked bore I would use a short starter, then fold the tails over top of the ball before I pushed it down to the powder. That may help it stay in place on its way to the choke and it's passage through. May be something to play with anyway.
Blessings!
BIC/BS

[Slowpoke]

Once upon a time I financed a pair of Zeiss binoculars with $20 coyotes.

All but two were killed with 1 1/4 # 6, one was killed with 1 1/4 of #4 and one was killed with # 4 buck.

I have killed one grey fox with 5/8 oz #6 out of a .410 35 yrds.

Using Bullshops chase patch with a RB, I bet it would have merit loading it into a breech loader using a brass shell.

good luck

[Greg5278]

You ncan use Teflon sheet for a sleeve around the ball. Ebay has it for a reasonable price. I don't know what gauge gun you are using, so I can't tell you what thickness to use. You could also try the old way of punching 2 heavy wool felts, and put the ball between them. I seem to recall and old artcle about that in Handloader Magazine. You need heavy felt, and can lube it and cut it with an arc punch. I think you could also drill halfway through some of the waxed .500 pressed cards from BPI and do the same thing.

You might have an easier time with shot. The sizes BB, T, and F are plenty for a Fox out to 40 yards. You will get a denser pattern with the smaller sizes. #4 buck works, but you need alot to fill out the pattern. I seem to recall aound 45-50 pellet of BB per ounce.

Greg