Need a harder alloy?

[Kyle M.]

So here's the deal. I just bought a very clean 90% plus 1884 Trapdoor Springfield. I slugged the bore and got .457"-.458". My 405gr bullets are sized at .459" and cast from the Lee hollow base flat nose mold. I'm using Lyman #2 alloy that I bought from Missouri Bullet Company a few years ago. The bullet lube I'm using to pan lube my bullets is 50/50 beeswax and crisco, that works fine in my .45 colt and .44 special revolvers with both smokeless and BP. In the trapdoor I got minor leading the last 4-5" of barrel after 10 rounds. Minor enough that it came right out with a bronze brush and some solvent. I was using 27grs of IMR4198.

Today I thought I'd load up some BP cartridges for the Trapdoor, I've previously done this for both a rolling block and marlin 1895. But back then I was using commercial cast bullets. My grandfather recently gave me 100+ lbs of pure lead that he has had for years, he and my uncle were really into muzzleloaders about 20 years ago. So I had this bright idea to cast some bullets out of pure lead. Well the issue arose when I went to seat said bullets, even using a powder compression die I'm still deforming the bullet nose when seating the bullet. The mold I was using was a Lee .459" 500gr pointed round nose. I'm also using a standard set of RCBS .45-70 dies.

I have about 100lbs of pure lead and maybe 20lbs of Lyman #2 left. My questions are #1 should I learn how to alloy my pure lead and just make the bullets harder? Is there another seating stem or something available so I don't deform my soft bullets? Or should I just stick with smokeless and try a new lube recipe? I'm not really sure how to approach this issue.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[dtknowles]

You should use a harder alloy than pure lead. You could get some tin or just use some of your #2 make a harder alloy. You should probably use powder compression die instead of using the bullet. You might could use your bullet seating die with minor mods. You can change the seating stem to match the bullet. You could use less compression. Do you use a drop tube?

Tim

[Kyle M.]

You should use a harder alloy than pure lead. You could get some tin or just use some of your #2. You should probably use powder compression die instead of using the bullet. You might could use your bullet seating die with minor mods. You can change the seating stem to match the bullet. You could use less compression. Do you use a drop tube?

Tim

I have a homemade 24" drop tube, as for the powder compression die I'm only compressing the powder about 1/16" using 55grs of Goex FFG. I probably should get a powder compression die though. In the past my bullets have been hard enough that I could do 1/16" of compression without any issues. I have no issues with using a harder alloy, I just don't know exactly what ratio of pure lead to #2 I should be using. I can always get some more #2 or some tin. I'm not loading these for any kind of stellar accuracy my local range is slightly less than 100 yards and I normally shoot at 50. I'm not much for shooting groups either.

[Ozark mike]

The seating stem needs to match bullet profile
Id try 20:1 alloy with what ya got
Try a little harder lube mix by adding more wax

[Kyle M.]

The seating stem needs to match bullet profile
Id try 20:1 alloy with what ya got
Try a little harder lube mix by adding more wax

Thanks I’ll see what I can do about finding another searing stem mine seems to be more for a flat nose bullet. I’ll also try your suggestion on the lead and lube. I feel like this die set originally came with two searing stems and I somehow lost one but maybe not.

[Ozark mike]

There are many threads here about all those topics by people that know more than i do i imagine they will have all kinds of advice for ya. But just a little searching can net a whole weeks worth of reading material

[Kyle M.]

There are many threads here about all those topics by people that know more than i do i imagine they will have all kinds of advice for ya. But just a little searching can net a whole weeks worth of reading material

Thanks. It seems any time I'm about to start a new project regarding bullet casting or loading a new cartridge there is a ton of info that I can read and there's always conflicting information. Also on a second check I didn't have nearly 20lbs of Lyman #2 left more like 12 at the most. But I have a good 100lbs of pure lead. Looks like I'm gonna have to buy some tin, and it looks like tin ingots are about $20/lb! I may be better off price wise just buying some more #2 lead and mixing that with the pure lead.

[RickinTN]

If you mix your Lyman #2 half and half with pure you'll have an alloy of 2.5% Sb, 2.5% Sn, and 95% lead. This should be a pretty good all around alloy for your 45-70. Your leading may have come from too hard an alloy. I'm playing with a couple of new Marlin 45-70's and the alloy I'm using is about what I've mentioned above cut in half again with pure or about 1.25%Sb, 1.25% Sn, and 97.5% Pb.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Larry Gibson]

Kyle M

First of all, a TD with a groove diameter of .457- .458 is under spec. Should be .460 +. The 3 groove barrel slugs must be measured with a V anvil mic or by using the shim method. Did you use either of those methods? The "minor leading" you mention getting is from the bullets being to small, or not a correct "fit" to the correct groove diameter. Your home made lube should work fine [I use beeswax and virgin olive oil at 5 parts to 4 parts by volume].

Second, You can soften the the #2 alloy by adding an equal amount of the pure lead for a 50/50 mix. That ternary alloy (lead, antimony and tin) will make excellent cast bullets for the TD when using smokeless powder. However, when using BP you do not want any antimony in the alloy which is why most BP cartridge bullets are cast of a binary alloy of just lead and tin. Many use a 20-1 Lead to tin alloy but the the arsenal settled on a 16-1 alloy for the 45-70 cartridge using both the 405 and 500 gr bullets. I prefer the 16-1 alloy for my own BP TD loads.

You can back off the standard RCBS FL die to just NS the cases. However, the standard die sizes the case neck area for .457 bullets and the expander expands the inside of the sized neck for that diameter bullet. That is too much for softer cast bullets. A larger expander made for .460 + sized softer cast bullets is really best to use. With BP the charge should be compressed to the seating depth of the bullet so the bullet just sets on top the compressed BP when seated. The bullet should not be deformed and if it is the compression depth is not right or there is too much neck tension caused by over sizing the neck and under expanding it.

You might find my posts in this thread informative for loadinng for your TD. TDs are a lot of fun to shoot and not really that difficult to load for. They just have their own quirks like many other guns do.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

[Conditor22]

I modify my seating stems for the boolit profile I am using.
1) clean stem well
2) lightly lube tip of boolit
3) fill end of clean seating stem with hot melt glue
4) press nose of boolit into glue
5) when cool/cured carve/sand off all excess hot glue.

Seeing the glue is softer than metal it will also give you more tolerances for different profiles


****Some people use 2 part epoxy instead of glue*****

[Kyle M.]

Thanks for all of the info everyone. I’ll try a few of the things mentioned here and let you know how it goes. A couple of things I can point out is 1. Whether it’s right or not I’ve used Lyman #2 in other black powder cartridges without any issues including zero leading. I was totally unaware that using an alloy containing antimony was an issue. 2. I’ve found plenty of people who use .459” bullets just fine in trapdoors. 3. My RCBS expander will expand cases far enough that a .459” 500gr bullet will drop in past the final seating depth if I adjust it all the way down.

I had just assumed early BP cartridges used pure lead like a lot of muzzleloader shooters.

[slk]

I do want to hijack this post but have a question along the original post. What ratio of pure lead and tin should you mix to get something close to Lyman #2 ??

[Kyle M.]

I do want to hijack this post but have a question along the original post. What ratio of pure lead and tin should you mix to get something close to Lyman #2 ??

I believe it's 90% lead, 5% tin, 5% antimony. Missouri bullet companies is 92% lead, 6% tin, 2% antimony.

[Mal Paso]

Rotometals at the top of this page has SuperHard 30% Antimony Lead and Tin if you want to harden some of your pure lead.

[slk]

Well what about if ya don't have antimony. What can you do with pure lead and tin. Any ratios for that? I have hundreds of lbs of pure lead, and lots of pewter...

[dtknowles]

... when using BP you do not want any antimony in the alloy which is why most BP cartridge bullets are cast of a binary alloy of just lead and tin....

I searched a bit but could not find out why no antimony with black powder. Does this apply to BP subs too?

Tim

[slk]

Ok this is what I think I know. Pewter is about 95% tin, and 5% antimony. So if I am just thinking out loud maybe 20 lbs of pure lead to 1 lb of Pewter should make something close to #2 lyman. I was never good at math. If someone else has the answer let me know.

Steve

[centershot]

Lyman # 2 alloy is 90-5-5, 90% lead, 5% antimony and 5% tin. It has a BHN of 15, excessively hard for muzzleloaders or BP cartridge arms.

I'm not saying people can't get good results with it in those application, but, for optimum accuracy you want a softer alloy that will easily obturate.

Pure lead has been the standard for muzzleloaders since forever and remains so today. BP cartridge arms are pretty happy with something like 16:1 or 30:1 lead/tin alloys, no antimony. Why no antimony? Because it makes the alloy harder which inhibits the obturation that is desirable at BP pressures.

Larry Gibson pointed out that the 16:1 alloy was selected by the Army for the 45/70 cartridge. Follow his advice.

[Outpost75]

+1 on Larry's advice. As to not wanting antimony in an alloy for black powder bullets, the reason is that in ternary Pb-Sn-Sb the tin and antimony form an intermetallic compound Sb-Sn which is much harder and less ductile than Pb-Sn used alone. While the additional strength and hardness is beneficial with higher-pressure smokeless loads above 30,000 psi, it is unnecessary and detrimental with black powder because it impairs the ability of the bullet to upset and create a positive gas-seal upon initial shot-start (aka obturation). With hollowbased bullets excessive hardness may cause brittle failure of the base cavity if the bullet upsets at all.

I have never slugged an original Trapdoor .45-70 having a groove diameter under .460". The average of the dozen or so I have fooled with over the years was .462, but I have seen one 1884 rifle which was .468"! With black powder the 1 to 20 tin-lead or 1 to 16 works well at standard velocity. It also works well in suitable smokeless loads which approximate serv ice velocity. Powders of choice for such loads are 4198, RL7 and 3031.

With very mild, subsonic smokeless loads firing 380-410 grain bullets a softer alloy of 1 to 30 or even 1 to 40 works well with faster-burning pistol or shotgun powders. While such loads can be very accurate even to 200 yards, you must exercise extreme caution to avoid double-charging!!! I can tell you from personal experience that a double charge totalling 22 grains of 700-X with #457193 cast 1:20 will not "blow up" a sound Trapdoor, but WILL bulge the chamber, rendering a treasured family heirloom into an inert wall hanger.

[slk]

My intent was loading 45 colt with unique powder. I am currently using wheel weights, but that supply will run out one day. I have hundreds of lbs of pure lead and lots of Pewter.

Steve

[DHDeal]

Kyle, I believe Larry Gibson nailed the issue you're having with the seating stem leaving deep marks on your bullets. For single shot rifles there's no need for much neck tension. Those soft bullets will not tolerate heavy seating force and will show just about any sharp edge thats on your seating stem. I believe you're seeing the effects of over sizing your brass for this application. You mentioned a compression die (and I have one per caliber I load BP in) and that's not a bad idea for a case full of BP, but you probably need a custom expander too. My loaded rounds with GG bullets have no more than .001" neck tension and will not spin in the cases, but they are extremely easy to seat. I can spin my PP bullets in the cases, but they won't fall out. No marks on the bullets will be found from seating pressure.

I never use straight lead for my BPCR bullets, but you can try them if you choose. For GG bullets I'll use 20/1 mostly and for PP I'll go 16/1. Over the years I've tried 30/1 and 25/1 but 20/1 just shot better at distance plain and simple. 16/1 could possibly do better, but I'd have to be "on" that day to tell.

The very few times I've seen slivers of lead come out of my barrels were due to it being smoking hot outside and me being lazy with a blow tube. I now wipe between shots and haven't seen lead since I started wiping.

Don't shy away from BP in your TD, but fouling control becomes an important detail as does lube and bullet hardness (bullet not being hard I mean). Personally I would not alloy that pure lead with an alloy that contains antimony if you are wanting to use it with BP and the Trapdoor.

I have very little experience with a TD, but I know they can shoot very well. Without me trying to spend your money (too much that is), try your mold but don't rule out an original type bullet profile that holds plenty of lube. I pan lube too for my BPCR GG bullets and use DGL or SPG as I don't need to reinvent the wheel for lubes and they are formulated for what I'm shooting.

[Ozark mike]

Thanks. It seems any time I'm about to start a new project regarding bullet casting or loading a new cartridge there is a ton of info that I can read and there's always conflicting information. Also on a second check I didn't have nearly 20lbs of Lyman #2 left more like 12 at the most. But I have a good 100lbs of pure lead. Looks like I'm gonna have to buy some tin, and it looks like tin ingots are about $20/lb! I may be better off price wise just buying some more #2 lead and mixing that with the pure lead.

I didn't mean to mix it with the lyman l was talking about 20 parts lead to 1 part tin sorry for the confusion

[Kyle M.]

Ok so here is what I tried today and so far I'm happy with it. I mixed 4lbs of pure lead with 4 lbs of Lyman #2, and cast a handful of bullets from my Lee 500gr .459" mold, this mold has 3 grease grooves and holds a fair bit of lube. I then ran them through the .459" sizing die, pan lubed them with 50/50 Beeswax/Crisco. I used my homemade drop tube and was able to get right around 60 grs of 2F Goex in a Starline case leaving enough room to seat the bullet minus about .100". I then adjusted my RCBS expander plug accordingly, cranked all the way down I can expand the case to where I can lose a bullet in the case. So I backed it off until I could just barely hand seat at the depth I need. I then sanded down a wood dowel in the drill press to just fit in the case. I used this dowel in the drill press to compress the powder to where a seated bullet would just sit on top. I then hand seated the bullets and applied just enough crimp that they won't be going anywhere from there own weight.

I went out and fired 10 rounds at 50 yards. This load shot about 4-5" high and all 10 rounds were touching. By the way I'm not that good of a shot so I'm very happy with that. Clean up was with the barreled action (breech block removed) in a bucket of warm soapy water. No traces of leading after a normal cleaning. So I think in the future this load will work. I'll eventually invest in a proper powder compression die and expanding stem. I see that Track of the Wolf has both. I'll probably also purchase some tin to alloy with my pure lead when the little bit of Lyman #2 I have left is gone. I should probably make myself a blowtube as well it wouldn't cost but a couple of dollars. But I can't see ever really shooting this thing more than maybe 20 or so rounds at a time, and I can always swab the bore every few shots.

Again thanks for all the info here getting me going down the right path.

[dtknowles]

+1 on Larry's advice. As to not wanting antimony in an alloy for black powder bullets, the reason is that in ternary Pb-Sn-Sb the tin and antimony form an intermetallic compound Sb-Sn which is much harder and less ductile than Pb-Sn used alone.....

If this is the reason for no antimony it does not seem right. 16 to 1 lead tin alloy has a BHN of around 11 and I have an alloy that is half pure and half wheel weights that has antimony and very little tin but the BHN is around 9. So the alloy with antimony is softer more like 30 to 1 lead tin. I was expecting there is more to it than just hardness or else why not just say keep the hardness below BHN 11. If softer is better why not 30 to 1 instead of 16 to 1.

What I would understand is if experience has show that alloys with antimony are not as accurate as lead tin alloys in the 16 to 1 or 20 to 1 range with out an explanation. I believe test results and explanations are often just speculation. It seems that softer ternary alloys shoot fine, the no antimony call is maybe just tradition. 16 to 1 is an expensive alloy almost no matter how you make it. If you try to save some money and use pewter instead of pure tin you will end up with antimony in the alloy but not much. Is that OK in the no antimony world. Range scrap, pewter, wheel weights and softer lead from the scrap yard in different combinations will get you an alloy with the same hardness as 16 to 1 but they will have antimony. Maybe an alloy with antimony needs to be softer than lead tin alloys. Say BHN of 9. It could be that a ternary allow with the same hardness as a lead tin alloy is stronger. Has greater compressive strength.

Does the no antimony advice apply to black powder cartridge pistols as well as rifles. Is the no antimony advice only applicable to applications with high accuracy expectation?

I have never cast any Lead Tin alloys. Until recently I did not have much pure lead only some stick-on wheel weights, little pipe and some sheet. I used that to soften my range scrap to cast balls for my muzzle loaders and cap and ball revolvers. I have one BPC revolver and two BPC rifles and I have use range scrap for bullets for those but I don't have high accuracy expectations for them. They are a S&W New Frontier top break DA Revolver in 44-40, a Swedish Rolling Block I load with 50-70 brass and a Belgian made double rifle in 450 BPE. The two rifles have express sights. My alloys have antimony so I hope I am not hurting my guns or poisoning myself.

Tim

[Outpost75]

Tim,

It is not a matter of just BHN hardness. It is a matter of alloy structure and chemistry. The mechanical properties of a binary Pb-Sn alloy are entirely different from a ternary Pb-Sb-Sn alloy of similar hardness. Apples and potatoes.

[dtknowles]

Tim,

It is not a matter of just BHN hardness. It is a matter of alloy structure and chemistry. The mechanical properties of a binary Pb-Sn alloy are entirely different from a ternary Pb-Sb-Sn alloy of similar hardness. Apples and potatoes.

I think that is one of the things I mentioned, not all the mechanical properties are entirely different they can have the same hardness, they can have the same ultimate tensile strength and they can have the same yield strength. They just won't have them all be the same at the same time. That is why I mentioned that maybe a ternary alloy with a lower BHN might work as well as 16 to 1 because they might have the same compressive strength. I really think the no antimony thing is because 16 to 1 was the best 150 years ago and is still the best that anyone has come up with.

I was wondering about the chemistry thing that is why I was asking about hurting my guns or poisoning myself. Is there some chemical reaction with antimony and black powder or fouling that make the antimony dangerous. You know like mercury primers hurting brass or poison fumes from melting down lead acid batteries.

In an earlier thread I asked about antimony and Black Powder substitutes. Is it still a no antimony situation or is it more like with smokeless powder where it seems antimony is consider ok.

Tim

[Hanzy4200]

One thing I have learned over the years. Lead hardness is far less important than proper sizing and lubing. In this situation, i think adding a little hardness likely will help.

[DHDeal]

Tim,
I cannot explain the alloys as well as Outpost75 or Larry Gibson can by a long shot. I have used an alloy I mixed using a small amount of antimony (more or less 4 lbs of COWW and 20 lbs of 20/1) for PP bullets in my 40/65 using a Brooks 400 grain elliptical. Can't tell a difference on target @ 300 yards compared to 16/1. That said, it is simpler for me to just stay with a binary alloy for those types of bullets in case I mine my berm. There are a few individuals who do use a ternary alloy for BPCR competition and they do very well, but by and large a binary alloy is used. Is it for ease of use or because it is a more accurate alloy for this application I can't say with a 100% certainty. Yet consider that those same individuals have tons of money wrapped up in their whole BPCR set up and can afford to buy what they want. They use a binary alloy by a very large margin (probably by a huge margin).

Bump up of the bullets when fired in a BP cartridge is a very important aspect of accuracy here and just a tiny amount of antimony makes for a harder than necessary bullet and that can lead to other problems. If you are firing 20 shots every so often, that's one thing, but if you are firing 80+ shots per match in hot summer weather, you don't want to fight leading because you are using a hard alloy. BP fouling can be hard enough to control in the situation I described under the clock.

No you won't poison yourself using a ternary alloy any more than if you use a binary alloy AFAIK. Just don't lick the bullets no matter how good they look. The guns could care less what alloy you use, but the target may well care.

Kyle,
BP fouling is quite easy to remove without a using a bucket of soapy water. Not knocking you as it works, but look at Buffalo Arms for a flexible cleaning rod. Many who shoot BPCR's wipe using a mix of water and a soluble oil and only use a bronze brush when necessary. Your rifle doesn't have the straight shot that most of the other newer style BPCR actions do, but with your breech block flipped up, a flexible rod works well wiping. After you're done shooting then do a complete wipe down and oil your barrel. It's just that easy.

If you haven't looked at Buffalo Arms before, they will have the other accouterments (just wanted to use that word) you could wish for to handload BP cartridges. The expanders and compression dies are just a few of the specialty items they carry.

I don't know your knowledge level so if you already know the above, my post isn't intended to be a soapbox preaching session. I've spent some serious money with Buffalo Arms.

[Larry Gibson]

This is one of those topics that always has an "exception" or two to the "rule". The 'rule" [to use lead/tin or pure lead with BP loads] is not hard and fast but is justified often enough that to use a ternary alloy many times results in leading and/or very poor performance, especially at longer ranges. Very soft ternary alloys such as the last Kyle M used many times will obturate with a stiff enough BP load and not give any leading for a few shots such as 10 shots at 50 yards. Over the long haul as DHDeal mentions they may not. With smokeless powders such as the 4198 Kyle M used in his OP leading is often readily apparent with just a few rounds especially with undersized bullets. The pressure curves of BP and smokeless powders are considerable different.

Getting the proper dies from Track of The Wolf will certain be advantages. Also the 50/50 #2 alloy/lead alloy is a very good one to use with smokeless powders if the bullet is sized correctly. It may even work okay with your .459 sized bullet if the bore/groove is close to minimal spec. That spec, as per the manuals of the day, calls for a .45 bore with .005" deep grooves. That means a .460 groove diameter is minimal. I also have slugged and measured the groove diameters of many original TD barrels over the years and found all but one were larger with only one at .460. There is a manufacturing reason for that which is why there are "tolerances" in manufacturing specs, especially back then.

BTW; Kyle, how did you measure the diameter of the barrel slug? For best accuracy with BP or smokeless in TDs, as there isn't much of a "throat, the bullets should be sized at or just over true groove diameter. The groove diameter of my Target TD is .461 and I size the bullets at .4615. I have tested larger sized and they shoot as well out to 200 yards but not as well at longer ranges. In Spence Wolf's very fine, and much to be recommended book, He used .459 sized 20-1 alloy bullets and depended the bullet "bumping up" to groove diameter with BP loads. Spence Wolf's goal was to replicate the original 1873 and 1882 loads used. Following his instructions and techniques will allow the same, replication of the original loads. However, you will also be replicating the original accuracy expectations. Using modern cast bullet techniques, such as sizing to the actual groove diameter+ will, or should, give better accuracy potential. If you are just shooting at 50 yards with only 10 +/- rounds then what you're doing may well be good enough for your purposes.

Perhaps Outpost75s use of the word "chemistry" was misleading, at least to dtknowles it apparently was. Yes, perhaps "metelurgy" probably would have been a better word to use but as I recall in all my "chemistry" classes in Jr High School, High School and College there was always a poster of the "Periodic Tables of Elements" on the wall and in most of the text books. All the metals, including lead, tin and antimony were listed.....in "chemistry" classes.......

[Kyle M.]

This thread seems like it is getting way more in depth than what I really need or care about as far as lead alloys go. What I care about is having a load that I can shoot 15-20 times between cleanings at 50 yards, maybe 100 on rare occasions. I seem to have found that load. I really don't care if I have to take some cleaning supplies to the range with me. As far as lead goes I plan to alloy what Lyman #2 I have left with pure lead to soften the #2. After that I will look into getting some tin so I can mix up some 16:1. I do know that my expander die works just fine for this bullet, using 55grs of Goex FFG dropped through a 24" drop tube I can get about 1/8" compression and seat my bullets by hand. They are tight enough they won't fall out or move, but not so tight that I can't seat them without deforming them.

Larry to answer your question about how I measured the bore I just slugged it as normal using a pure lead .54 caliber round ball. And measured it with a 0-1" micrometer. I know there is a lot of conflicting information online about measuring uneven groove numbers this way but it has always worked for me in the past and seems to have worked now. I'm not trying to turn this old trapdoor into a target rifle I simply want to be able to shoot it on occasion, and this test load I cobbled together seems to work just fine for that.

[Larry Gibson]

Kyle M

Seems you've found a load that suits your needs to your satisfaction. So, as I usually say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it..... Just keep on shooting your TD as they are a lot of fun.

Just one note though; you may think measuring the slug with calipers is giving you a correct measurement but it is not. Many, myself included, have tried that and thought the measurement was correct but it really wasn't. The widths of the 3 lands and grooves makes it impossible to measure the diameter correctly. The shim method is simple to do and gives a very close, accurate measurement. If you are interested (?) I will certainly post the directions for you.

[WRideout]

Thanks I’ll see what I can do about finding another searing stem mine seems to be more for a flat nose bullet. I’ll also try your suggestion on the lead and lube. I feel like this die set originally came with two searing stems and I somehow lost one but maybe not.

A temporary fix that has worked for me was to put some hot melt glue in the seating die, then seat the bullet while it is still soft. The stem with the glue will take on the shape of the boolit nose.

Wayne

[Kyle M.]

A temporary fix that has worked for me was to put some hot melt glue in the seating die, then seat the bullet while it is still soft. The stem with the glue will take on the shape of the boolit nose.

Wayne

I don’t think that would work with my RCBS stem as it has a very shallow cavity in it with a flat bottom for flat nose bullets. I have found however that I can expand the case mouth enough that I can hand seat my bullets.

If I still worked in a machine shop and had access to a lathe this would be a simple fix. I find myself in need of a lathe or mill quite often now that I don’t have access to either.

[Kyle M.]

Kyle M

Seems you've found a load that suits your needs to your satisfaction. So, as I usually say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it..... Just keep on shooting your TD as they are a lot of fun.

Just one note though; you may think measuring the slug with calipers is giving you a correct measurement but it is not. Many, myself included, have tried that and thought the measurement was correct but it really wasn't. The widths of the 3 lands and grooves makes it impossible to measure the diameter correctly. The shim method is simple to do and gives a very close, accurate measurement. If you are interested (?) I will certainly post the directions for you.

The problem with the shim method for me is supposing the bore diameter is .460”-.462” I don’t have a mold that large and right now I can’t afford a $100+ special order mold. If I could even justify it. So either way I’m technically stuck with sub par bullets. But that doesn’t seem to be creating any issue for what I’m doing. Shouldn’t a bullet as soft as 16:1 obdurate enough in the bore? Especially my 405gr hollow base bullets?

I have found several BPCR shooters on other sites using pure lead in their guns with great results and they are shooting much longer ranges than I ever will. Now that I know I can expand case mouths enough to hand seat the bullets I believe this may work for me as well.

[Conditor22]

You can convert flat stems with Hot melt glue to round nose.

IF your boolits are too small you can always powder coat them to make them larger.

IF you insist on lube, you can lube powdercoated boolits.

[Kyle M.]

You can convert flat stems with Hot melt glue to round nose.

IF your boolits are too small you can always powder coat them to make them larger.

IF you insist on lube, you can lube powdercoated boolits.

I always thought powder coating seemed like a good idea but I've personally not had any luck with it, thanks for the further info on the seating stems. I think I am going to stick with my hand seated bullets. Eventually I'll likely buy a proper mold from Accurate molds, It's just not feasible at this time.

[Conditor22]

You could Leement/polish the mold bigger. I've successfully enlarged molds .003-.005

cast at a lower temperature will help you get a little bigger boolit

not all powders work for ASBBDT

[Kyle M.]

You could Leement/polish the mold bigger. I've successfully enlarged molds .003-.005

cast at a lower temperature will help you get a little bigger boolit

not all powders work for ASBBDT

Interesting. I’d like to know more about enlarging the mold. My powder coat problem was exactly that. The powder I ordered either didn’t stick at all or clumped terribly and I just didn’t feel like messing with it anymore. I may revisit it if I ever decide to mess with smokeless in the trapdoor. I have BP and smokeless loads for my .44 special and .45 Colt that work just fine. Those and a few muzzleloaders are the only two other guns I currently cast for.

[Kyle M.]

I just found something useful out last night. If I keep my lead right around 700 degrees both of my Lee .459” molds will drop a bullet of .462” diameter using 16:1 alloy. Even though my .459” bullets seem to shoot fine for what I’m doing this could be a further advantage.

[Larry Gibson]

I just found something useful out last night. If I keep my lead right around 700 degrees both of my Lee .459” molds will drop a bullet of .462” diameter using 16:1 alloy. Even though my .459” bullets seem to shoot fine for what I’m doing this could be a further advantage.

That is much more like what they should be dropping those at. I cast at 710 -725 degrees. I also use a Lyman dipper with the spout hole drilled out larger to get the 400+ gr of alloy into the cavity as quick as possible. Suggest you might try those bullets "as cast"

[Kyle M.]

That is much more like what they should be dropping those at. I cast at 710 -725 degrees. I also use a Lyman dipper with the spout hole drilled out larger to get the 400+ gr of alloy into the cavity as quick as possible. Suggest you might try those bullets "as cast"

I'll definitely be giving them a try, I've always cast from my Lee 10lb pot directly. I've never tried ladle casting mainly because what I'm doing has always worked for me.

[Kyle M.]

I shot a few rounds with the 405gr .461”- .462” bullets today. Performance seemed about the same as with the .459” bullets. But the .462” bullets save me the extra step of sizing so I’ll just stick with them.

[Green Lizzard]

Besides all that your neck tension is too much, for a flop top you can seat them with your thumb

Bill

[Kyle M.]

Besides all that your neck tension is too much, for a flop top you can seat them with your thumb

Bill

My RCBS expander die is adjustable to where I can seat the .462" bullets with my thumb.

[Kyle M.]

After some more testing I seem to be getting the exact same results with the 405 gr hollow base bullet sized at .459” over 60 grs of Goex FFG as I get with the same bullet sized at .462”. Both cast from 16:1. So I’m guessing that 16:1 is soft enough to obdurate. I have yet to do any shooting with the 500 gr semi pointed round nose sized at .462”. That’s next on the list.