358 velocity, soft composition

[versa-06]

250 Grain Boolit, Velocity & soft composition is not coming easily, 2" at 80yds SR-4759. Do I need to W-Quench 50/50 +2 to get 2000 fps. Tried many powders. Had a load 26 gr SR-4759 RCBS 35-200 Sellier & Bellot primers shot lights out accuracy, Then 30 GR 1.5" went through that Lot#
of primers & nothing has been easy since. I have gently tried W-748, IMR-4064, IMR-4350, W-760, AA-2015, WC-846, IMR-3031, & faster powders, I Need to pick a powder for this heavy bullet & stick to it til accuracy happens, would like to hear of your experience in comparison to load & rifle. I'm using BLR 358 & Ruger African 358 20" barrel. Hoping some input can lessen the usage of hard to come by loading material.

[versa-06]

Oh by the way 1:12 Twist & 20" barrel on both. sorry for late entry.

[beltfed]

My 358 Win hunting load for years for my Savage 110CL,rebarrelled with Douglas 14 twist #3 wt:
WLR primers/cases from WW 308 brass.
43 gr 3031/ Lyman 358318 ,250 gr case of 9+1 COWW/LINO , 15 bhn
Bullet is Paper Patched. Seated out to 2.71" OAL.
Velocity across the Oehler 33 is about 2340fps.
Always, one shot one kill for larger Northern WI deer.
Caution must be taken working up to this load.
Has been safe in my rifle/chamber,etc, but NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHERS APPROACHING SUCH LOAD.
beltfed/arnie

[quilbilly]

Just below this thread is another thread about a good size black bear killed with a 45 Colt completely with damage pictures. Unless you are hunting large dangerous game or shooting at long range, is it really necessary to have that soft lead boolit going that fast? Soft lead large "pills" are wonderfully lethal at moderate velocities well under an MV of 1700 fps.

[white eagle]

try 20-22 gr's. 2400 with filler or not
I use that in my 358 win model 70
get excellent accuracy
slow it down a bit with cast
no need to max out the velocity
big heavy boolits works wonders on game

[Harter66]

That 1-12 is probably going to stall you right around 1900 fps , unless you go to harder alloy . I shot a 75/25 WW/1-20 RCBS 35-250 with a full case minus 10% from the neck base of IMR 4350 and it ran immediately to 2100 fps and had I not tossed the gas check 5 into .900" . I had a Santa Barbara 98 with a 23" A&B barrel 1-14" twist .

For whatever it's worth that's right in the middle of jacketed speeds peaking out at almost 50 kpsi with a Barnes Accu???? and H322 . I also tried H322 with dismal results .

[Three44s]

Sometimes it works that way!

You get a combination that just works great and bamb, change a lot number and you are wandering in the wilderness. I had that happen with a 22-250 and j words once. I never got my .420” with 5 shots back to save my soul. I had to settle for .6” and gained velocity with a different powder until the barrel shot out.

I would guess you need to look beyond bullet alloy and components and revisit filament to your rifle. Even firelapping if necessary.

And also slow things back down in the meantime.

Three44s

[strebort]

I'm shooting the RCBS 200 powder coated with a about a 16 bhn. And getting 2354 fps with just under 2" groups at 100 yards. Rifle is Savage 99 22" barrel with a 1 in 12 twist using S&B primers and 42 grains of TAC. I can only attribute this to the powder coated boolits.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[waksupi]

Using both 1-12, and 1-14, I get a group averaging 1.25" or less. Pretty much any weight bullet has seemed to work well. I use WC 852 (F) I got from Bartlett Reloading. I water drop the wheel weight bullets. My 290 gr. average 2170 fps.

[WinchesterM1]

If you looked 2 threads up you would have seen this, I can tell you the pictures were nasty!!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

[444ttd]

try 20-22 gr's. 2400 with filler or not
I use that in my 358 win model 70
get excellent accuracy
slow it down a bit with cast
no need to max out the velocity
big heavy boolits works wonders on game

i was going to go with a bigger boolit, but a 200gr fn gc with 2400/dacron that goes 1726fps with my 35/30-30 is accurate. i have only killed one doe with it, but the boolit performance was impressive(behind the shoulder, thru both lungs, cracked a rib or two and went out). she was at about 20-25 yards and she ran after the shot about 20+/- yards more.

sighting it in
https://i.imgur.com/nBFtFB6.jpg


i also use 2400 powder/dacron for my 444 marlin and 300gr fn gc that goes 1624fps. i killed 3 or 4 deer with it and i can't complain about my "low" velocity rounds.

[versa-06]

Waksupi;- That load sounds like pure penetration at it's finest. Also to everyone that has posted on this subject, Thanks! everything that's been said is adding to the reality that is. I've taken several deer with a 50/50 w-quenched 35-200 & the results have been excellant, guess I need to return to the water drop in order to keep some velocity. I'd like to keep a little boolit speed because I'd hate to pass on a 140 yd shot due to bad grouping or boolit drop. I don't want the fur to carry away the meat. Ya Know What I Mean?

[white eagle]

try 20-22 gr's. 2400 with filler or not
I use that in my 358 win model 70
get excellent accuracy
slow it down a bit with cast
no need to max out the velocity
big heavy boolits works wonders on game

I use this with a 260 gr Mountain Molds boolit
pc'd 16-1 alloy or 25-1 either will work

[Norske]

My 358W BLR insists on IMR3031 powder for accuracy. I did shoot a 3-shot group with a 200gr cast bullet powder from Missouri Bullet Co. over 29gr 3031 that made a .17" center-to-center group at our indoor 100yards range. I won't live long enough to do that again.

[Hank Ryan]

"I won't live long enough to do that again."
Now, now. Age is no objection when doing amazing feats, you can definitely do it again.

[versa-06]

Hank Ryan; I like PMA Positive Mental Attitude! When all else fails, The Boolits must Fly, Fly, Again!.

[Norske]

I was 70 when I made that tight group. I won't live to be 100.

[Tripplebeards]

I know it’s not the same load and rifle but maybe some of my info might help. I’m using 50/50 ac COWW and pure lead flooring. I added 2% pewter to the total. Shooting out of my marlin 336 chambered in 35 Rem. My BH 10.4. Barrel slugs at .357” and I size at .3595” with lee push through size die I honed out. I tumble coat PC and GC my boolits. I also use a lee collet factory crimp die which imo is why my groups are tight. I shot two groups in a row at 100 yards that were .250” at 2100 FPS with 40 grains of varget.

https://i.imgur.com/uVbAZ73.jpg

Here’s my first try at 200 yards with the load. It dropped 9” sighted in 1” high at 100 yards. It measured 2 3/4”

https://i.imgur.com/kwAcv9k.jpg

Here’s the runner up load and powder...

https://i.imgur.com/yby2coi.jpg

I also tested a 16:1 mix of pewter and lead flooring. The best group I had was with 40 grains of varget at 100 yards. It measured 2”. I also had a trigger pull of 5.5 pounds at the time. My varget load above shot and inch group before I lightened my trigger so I’m guessing my 16.:1 with a Bh of 7.8 will now shoot tighter.

I’m using a lighter boolit than you are. It’s out group buy 200 grain HP.


https://i.imgur.com/twfMJCG.jpg

5.5 Pound trigger before I adjusted it down to 2 1/4 pounds vvvv...

https://i.imgur.com/uv6NGaO.jpg

Here’s a couple of loads I tried with the 5.5 pound trigger before lightened it to 2 1/4 pounds. The top load now shoots all in the same hole with reducing trigger pull.

The bottom load was with a lee 200 grain boolit mixed with the same 50/50 10.4 Bh alloy. I never retested the lee load after the reduced trigger pull weight.

All my boolits are separated into 1 grain increments for load testing.

What kind of crimp style are you using and what are you sizing your boolits to?

I had a 2.5 x 10 Tasco and see throughs on it for testing. I switched over to 2x7 leupold the other day and a DNZ mount.

https://i.imgur.com/2CgjAOK.jpg

[versa-06]

Tripplebeards; I'm using a Lee factory crimp. I've been kicking the idea around of trying powder coating, what is a good powder brand, and there is a lot of talk about color, does the color matter? I read a lot of I'm gonna try this or that color.

[versa-06]

Late entry again; Nice Marlin!! Microgroove?

[Tripplebeards]

I get my powder from Smoke who is a member here. I use the clear for my long range hunting loads. It goes on easiest and coats the smoothest imo. The above purple & black mix was just for fun. My gun is a 1970 centennial microgroove rifle. Even when my boolits get dinged up from tumbling the clear fills in all the dings. They are glass smooth with smokes clear PC. It’s normally $20 a pound shipped and $2 for some air soft BBS from him. I use Betty Crocker dollar store containers to tumble in. I pick them up with a needle nose pliers and drop them into a second Tupperware container to bounce off the excess and then stand them up to bake. I back for 20 min at 455 degrees...my oven temp is off. I believe 20 min at 400 degrees is the standard. I seated this with a pusher I sanded flat. I used the factory conical pusher now so the nose stays more tapered.

https://i.imgur.com/l4lDjsy.jpg

Even with all my cast boolit variables in order my heavy 5.5 pound plus trigger pull hindered my groups as you can see....till I lightened it. And BTW I have shot up to 2650 FPS in other calibers with zero leading using smoke’s PC to date.

[versa-06]

OK I'm in, Just shot a PM to smoke hoping he'll get me started. All advice & input appreciated.

[GLynn41]

I had luck with the Saeco 245 and H322. I took a doe with
Also the Lee 208 gr as cast did well I do not have the data in front of me also with H322
the 245 were in the 2100.. 2200 fps
the lees were in the 2300s just now coming back to work with them.
And got some GT 220 gr loaded with heavy loads of h322. I looking to see what range I can get as well as accuracy. Because I would rather use my .358 as a all around rifle--- I can with Hornady 200Flex tips but trying to see what can get with 220s-- H 322 has been good for me

[versa-06]

GLynn41; Are you powder coating? & what is your alloy?

[GLynn41]

have not pcd-- I have used mule snot lube-- and carnauba red from Le Stuff and sometimes I water drop
alloy is recovered bullets ww and a bit of type metal added and shoot as cast --my gt bullets' are 359/ will start PC next week after I shoot what I have loaded now

[cwlongshot]

Im not a fan of any fillers in a bottle neck case at all. Just try / use different powders.

I am traveling this road too. Kinda wanted to be at my destination, but other calibers took Precedence for me. I just received a Saeco 352 and being a 35 cal nut this would be only one possible caliber in a field of 5-6 others to use it in.

I bought a NOE 360-232 expressly for the Ruger Grice 358. Its proving a good shooter, but a mediocre feeder. (WFP design RD reminiscent but wider meplat) I target 1800+ but not wanting over 21/22. 3031 4895 and RE7 have worked for me.

I also have the use of a MP 359-220 shown above in purple. REAL NICE BULLET!! I have yet to fire in the 358 or Whelen. But its shooting NICE in the Maxi and Legend!!!

Alloys I pretty much just shoot COWW +tin for these velocity hunting bullet and everything is powder coated. I have tested and recovered my bullets at this velocity and they work well.

[jwhite]

I use the 230gr Ranch Dog design in my Grices 358 winchester, and while it shoots very well I also found it to be a poor feeding boolit. I contacted Ruger and they sent me two of the 450 bushmaster magazines, they are a single stack so extend a bit below the stock but feed the big flat nose cast bullets very well.

[versa-06]

Using Powder Coat; Is an Allox residue in the barrel of a rifle going to make a difference, or should it be stripped of all residue & then start with powder coat.

[cwlongshot]

Using Powder Coat; Is an Allox residue in the barrel of a rifle going to make a difference, or should it be stripped of all residue & then start with powder coat.. Intresting question... Im gonna say YES it will have some effect simply because it will not be a constant. Meaning the more ta shoot the less residue from the lube will remain.

Glynn, I like many of those GT bullets. Last time I bought they was just offering harder allys. Mine where about 10:1 ish 12 bhn. They shot quite well from
My Maxi at 13/1400. Never tried in bigger 45's. My buddy bought and I powdercoated and kept just a few ta try.
But I do but a 50g 25 cal and a 220 .40 cal for my 25/20 & 10mm. That lil 25 is an EXPLOSION ON lil critters!! (Both HP bullets) I have a load worked up thats just shy of 1150 in my 6" KKM 10mm and it expands and balls up into nearly a 1" ball!! Using Blue Dot.

Beter economics for me to buy occasionally AS CAST from them. As 250 lasts me over a year in these specialized bullets. (Yes I cast and actually cast more then most doing so a couple times a week.)

CW

Will it actually HARM? Doubtful. At least in my mind. Reality trumps and mine is just a guess.

[white eagle]

Clean barrel would show you if you are getting leading
clean it and have some fun

[Goofy]

I'm new here and don't know much about casting bullets, but it seems I walked a different path and found decent results. A Win 94 Trapper .30-30 shooting Lyman 311041's alloyed with 50/50 lead/WW and enough tin to make is sort of a 30:1 ratio. They weighed about 175 gr and with H335 were shooting 1.5" groups at 50 yards with a receiver sight. Velocity in the 2,000-2,100 fps range, no leading whatsoever.

[versa-06]

Accuracy, with velocity being a plus haven't heard any use (or shooting) of powder coat along with lubed boolits, (maybe PC'd & lubed)? Hey Goofy!; Was yore loads loobed, powder coated, both, or do you have a little secret that you might want to share?????

[versa-06]

Oh by the way my Rotti pup (9-mos. old) is named Goofy, She's gonna be the Wonder Dog! ( I Hope)

[Goofy]

Versa, sized .309, a shank dip in thinned ALOX and dusted with a blend of motor mica and graphite after it dries.

I hope your Goofy isn’t as clumsy as me.

[versa-06]

Hmmm! Sounds slick! I've found in my 30 cal. experience (However Limited) that .310 &.311 has tightened up my groups well. Your mileage may vary. Keep at it my friend, you have not completed the course (what ever it may be) until the last shot is fired! And what will that be At????? Versa-06 Jim

[versa-06]

Her original name was Izzie, but her nickname is Well Deserved! Next, Wonder Dog! (Again I Hope!)

[Tripplebeards]

OK I'm in, Just shot a PM to smoke hoping he'll get me started. All advice & input appreciated.

Did you try any tumble coating PC yet?

[farmbif]

this might be stupid question but will powder coated allow faster velocity with softer alloy. all ive ever shot out rifle were clip on wheel weight cast or clip ons mixed with some Lino and fastest ive ever got cast bullet going with good accuracy is about 2100fps, that's my ideal 35 rem load. but I'm soon headed into uncharted teritory with 2520 powder in 35 whelen, load data ive got the starting load is about 2400fps, I need to cast some more 35-220's from old mp group buy, but have plenty 35-200's cast checked and lubed

[versa-06]

Haven't tried the tumble powder coat yet, I wanted to find out why so many are trying different colors. It seems that a few comments lean toward clear for a little more velocity & maintaining accuracy. Just about done with helping the grandson move into their new house (Boy have they accumulated a lot of stuff) so I plan on getting the ball rolling Monday or Tues. I've decided to try 1lb. clear & 1lb Bacon Grease Yellow.

[Tripplebeards]

this might be stupid question but will powder coated allow faster velocity with softer alloy. all ive ever shot out rifle were clip on wheel weight cast or clip ons mixed with some Lino and fastest ive ever got cast bullet going with good accuracy is about 2100fps, that's my ideal 35 rem load. but I'm soon headed into uncharted teritory with 2520 powder in 35 whelen, load data ive got the starting load is about 2400fps, I need to cast some more 35-220's from old mp group buy, but have plenty 35-200's cast checked and lubed

Yes, I've shot 2200 FPS with soft 7.8 bh alloy out of my 35 rem with zero leading and decent accuracy. Was going to try the same 50/50 10.4 BH hp boolit out of my Whelen at max jacketed velocities but it won’t feed cast.

[cwlongshot]

this might be stupid question but will powder coated allow faster velocity with softer alloy. all ive ever shot out rifle were clip on wheel weight cast or clip ons mixed with some Lino and fastest ive ever got cast bullet going with good accuracy is about 2100fps, that's my ideal 35 rem load. but I'm soon headed into uncharted teritory with 2520 powder in 35 whelen, load data ive got the starting load is about 2400fps, I need to cast some more 35-220's from old mp group buy, but have plenty 35-200's cast checked and lubed


NOT AT ALL STUPID!! Ya dont know till ya learn! Never stupid ta ask. Anyone who pupus questions shows THERE OWN SHORT COMINGS!

Answer; YES ABSOLUTELY!!!

Think of it as a actual jacket, cause IT IS! But still use cast data. Your still dealing with a cast projo here.

I have pushed 10-12 bhn past 2000 with a PLAIN BASE ZERO bullet fouling found! NOT just ine ahot either!!

CW

[versa-06]

Never Hesitate to ask a question on this forum, The Good Guys Far Out Weigh The Sarcasm.