The age old question

[Rizzo]

So, God put us on this earth......why?

Yes, the age old question "Why are we here?"

His creations of earth and all of it's beauty and other creatures are mind blowing.
Yet, here we are having to run the gauntlet of life.

Greed, fame, desire, human emotion, etc., are things that can trip us up into committing sin, despite our belief and love of God.
We are not perfect, but God seems to want that from us or else we are punished for our sins.
Grr-rrr!
In a way it seems sadistic of God to put us here and have us struggle through life.
I know that sounds terrible but in my frustration I have those thoughts.
I do try,...but then I fail.

I want to be back home with God but my road has been a bumpy road where I have stumbled and fallen and then get upset with myself because I did so.
More sin and a bit farther from God on each episode of my failures.

I am accountable for all of my sins and understand the nulling out of my bad and good Karma with Him.
Sorry, I do not believe I get a free pass (salvation) because one believes in Jesus.

Perhaps God will read my heart and despite my sins I can go back home with Him, hopefully.
Otherwise, (in my belief system) I have to come back and do it all over again.

So, God put us on this earth......why?
If He wanted company in His vast Oneness for some reason, why not just put us in heavan with Him to start with.

Or,....maybe He did and we are the fallen angels that wanted to experience this Physical Life?
Big mistake!

[00buck]

Our purpose in life and why we were created is to glorify God.

I fail miserably but I’m a work in progress

[Hogtamer]

pretty sure your "belief system" needs an update.

[elmacgyver0]

The why really doesn't matter.
Just be the best we can is what does matter.
In my opinion anyway.

[1hole]

Sorry, I do not believe I get a free pass (salvation) because one believes in Jesus.

Sorry, but that's because you really don't understand what Biblical "belief" actually entails; it's MUCH more than a mouthed belief. A real belief is much more demanding than that, a real belief WILL produce positive changes in life.

Is there no change in the lost sinner? Then there's no new life!

Try thinking of Biblical believing as including "following", "clinging to", "depending on", "emulating", "loving" the one whom we "believe in" because all of that IS included in the kind of belief that produces salvation.

Unlike the casual "I believe in Jesus, therefore I am a Christian and therefore I'm going to heaven" ideas AND the group-think of earned salvations is foolish. Meaning new creatures in true believing and faithful living requires a lot more from us than simply doing an occasional good deed or checking things off a mindless "do/don't do" sin list. Thus, while salvation through Jesus is indeed the only way to heaven it's by no means a silly free pass; it demands a changed way of looking at life. (2 Cor 5:17)

Simply believing Jesus is God is a "depart from me, I never knew you" belief. Head acceptance must come but it's just a start, it's by no means the end of a "born again" faith and life. (Mat 7:21-23)

[JimB..]

I expect that the OP comes from a non-christian religion. I hope that he’ll share more.

[dtknowles]

God put us here to test us. To find our who is worthy and who is not. To give us practice, to learn what we need to learn so we can serve God better in the next life.

Tim

[Der Gebirgsjager]

We are here to learn.

[smithnframe]

I don't think we're gonna get the answer in the cast boolit forum!

[1hole]

I don't think we're gonna get the answer in the cast boolit forum!

Well, to be fair even to us ... this IS the "Deep Theology" forum and cast bullets aren't our focus. :) ???

[Rizzo]

pretty sure your "belief system" needs an update.
Update to what?....to your belief system?
Which would be....what?
A Heavan or Hell scenario?

Here's an update to you:
No one goes to Hell for eternity.

[Rizzo]

I expect that the OP comes from a non-christian religion. I hope that he’ll share more.

You expect wrongly.
Raised Catholic, went to Catholic School, did the altar boy thing where we said prayers in Latin.
If you meant you'd like me to share more of my beliefs, then do a search.
My views/beliefs have been stated many times in this forum.

Since you are participating in this thread, why not share your views on "Why are we here"?
Hmmm?

[.429&H110]

Good question for a Sunday morning!
I believe.
Each of us has a relationship with God.
Three times Bible says religion is ritual
Then in James He says, "Religion is..."
We are God's children.
You have a relationship with your Father.
Why? Why do you have kids, anyway?
A test:
When you were a kid did you say
"I am in trouble, don't tell father."
or
"I am in trouble, tell father."

Betcha your Dad found out anyway.

Peter the fisherman wrote in 1 Peter 1:8
...Exult in joy unspeakable...

Where's your joy?
In a church? A religion?
Word of God. It's all spelled out.
For me, I'm off to church.

[Rizzo]

Our purpose in life and why we were created is to glorify God.

I fail miserably but I’m a work in progress


God put us here to test us. To find our who is worthy and who is not. To give us practice, to learn what we need to learn so we can serve God better in the next life.

Tim


We are here to learn.
Thank you for your replies.

To learn, to be tested, to glorify God and also I remember in my youth that we are here to serve God.
As most know, I believe in reincarnation so that is another reason for being here NOW, but the initial "being here" is puzzling to me.

Is God so insecure that He needs to be glorified and served for some reason?
It just doesn't "feel" right thinking that is true, yet I do not know the real reason.
I know it has been pondered for ages and what we come up with is speculative.

In my mind I keep coming back to my thinking of why not "create" us and put us in heavan with Him, rather than on this earth?
To prove ourselves worthy of Him, to test us?
Ahhh-hh! Frustration. Round and round I go in my head.
Why does it matter?
Because I am that kind of person who ponders on these things and tries to figure them out.

It's interesting to read other's take on the issue and gives food for thought.
Thanks.

[1hole]

.......Here's an update to you:
No one goes to Hell for eternity.

Rizzo, you state your belief as if it's an undeniable point of fact but I say it's only your opinion, itself probably firmly based on nothing but your opinion! But, to be fair to you, I'll ask by what data - or logic - did you arrive at that "update"?


* As an aside, I'm an old man and have known a lot of people, both inside and outside the family of God. There is no statistical data I know of to confirm it but my experience has been that those who were raised within Roman Catholicism and then grow up to reject God are, as a group, the most determined to deny God; wonder why that is?

[JimB..]

You expect wrongly.
Raised Catholic, went to Catholic School, did the altar boy thing where we said prayers in Latin.
If you meant you'd like me to share more of my beliefs, then do a search.
My views/beliefs have been stated many times in this forum.

Since you are participating in this thread, why not share your views on "Why are we here"?
Hmmm?
Apologies, the concept of reincarnation isn’t an element of Catholicism and so I made the assumption that I did. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and was an altar boy...I’m quite certain that while it made my family happy it doesn’t mean squat in terms of salvation. My Sicilian grandmother wanted me to be a priest, she figured my mother had 5 sons so one needed to be given to God’s service, but it wasn’t my path.

To answer your question, I don’t know why we are here, but we are and I feel pretty good about knowing what things I should be doing while we’re here. I often fail to do them, and do other things that I shouldn’t, but I’ve accepted salvation and the rest matters little.

I am curious about your belief in reincarnation. Personally I don’t see the point in it, but I can’t say that we aren’t cycling through physical forms until the rapture and then we all go to judgement together. If that’s what’s going on, and nobody knows it and you never remember it, then why not be happy to go along for the ride? You don’t know that it’s happening, and you can’t change it if it is.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, you state your belief as if it's an undeniable point of fact but I say it's only your opinion, itself probably firmly based on nothing but your opinion! But, to be fair to you, I'll ask by what data - or logic - did you arrive at that "update"?
Well 1Hole, we have been through this before....remember?
That is what I believe.
You state your beliefs with somewhat the same conviction as myself.
Are those your opinions?
I realize that you base your beliefs on what is in the Bible and feel strongly about them.
I do admire that.

Yet you do come on rather strong sometimes in an insulting fashion to those that have THEIR own different beliefs.

Reincarnation is a belief that goes back thousands of years.
It is hardly "firmly based on nothing but my opinion" as you stated.
You know better than that.
You are trolling there.

For everyone else:
Basically stated, the belief says that we are accountable for our actions/sins.
The Law of Cause and Effect (Karma) states that when we die we may proceed to a higher spiritual realm towards being back home with God if our good and bad karma null each other out. Certainly what is in our hearts come into play with regard to the repentance we have done.
Also, material desires can be an anchor that would be a determing factor if we stay or come back (reincarnate).
You really want that new shotgun, or Corvette, or being president of the company you work at....stuff like that.
When you die, those are unfulfilled desires that can be one of the reasons you would have to reincarnate to resolve those desires or ultimately realize that they aren't that important.
So, that is why no one goes to Hell for eternity.
One reincarnates until things square up.
Final destination: Back home with God from where we came, for everyone.



* As an aside, I'm an old man and have known a lot of people, both inside and outside the family of God. There is no statistical data I know of to confirm it but my experience has been that those who were raised within Roman Catholicism and then grow up to reject God are, as a group, the most determined to deny God; wonder why that is?
I wouldn't know why that is. Why is that?

So, in your sly way, you are once again saying that I reject God.
You called me a denier before and I called you out on it.
"Thou shall not bear false witness.."
Practice what you preach 1Hole and knock off the insinuations.

[Rizzo]

Apologies, the concept of reincarnation isn’t an element of Catholicism and so I made the assumption that I did. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and was an altar boy...I’m quite certain that while it made my family happy it doesn’t mean squat in terms of salvation. My Sicilian grandmother wanted me to be a priest, she figured my mother had 5 sons so one needed to be given to God’s service, but it wasn’t my path.

To answer your question, I don’t know why we are here, but we are and I feel pretty good about knowing what things I should be doing while we’re here. I often fail to do them, and do other things that I shouldn’t, but I’ve accepted salvation and the rest matters little.

I am curious about your belief in reincarnation. Personally I don’t see the point in it, but I can’t say that we aren’t cycling through physical forms until the rapture and then we all go to judgement together. If that’s what’s going on, and nobody knows it and you never remember it, then why not be happy to go along for the ride? You don’t know that it’s happening, and you can’t change it if it is.

Correct, the Catholics do not teach about reincarnation.
It is pretty much a foreign topic in this forum since most do not believe in it.......because it is not in the Bible.
BTW, in my view, I do not see how it can conflict in the messages that Jesus taught us in the Bible.
I have called myself a "Hybrid Christian" for that reason.

Regarding your curiosity about my belief in reincarnation, I just wrote out the basics in my previous reply to 1Hole.
Hopefully that answers your questions.

Thanks for your input.

[JimB..]

Correct, the Catholics do not teach about reincarnation.
It is pretty much a foreign topic in this forum since most do not believe in it.......because it is not in the Bible.
BTW, in my view, I do not see how it can conflict in the messages that Jesus taught us in the Bible.
I have called myself a "Hybrid Christian" for that reason.

Regarding your curiosity about my belief in reincarnation, I just wrote out the basics in my previous reply to 1Hole.
Hopefully that answers your questions.

Thanks for your input.

Thanks, I think that I understand your beliefs at a high level. I'm not convinced that the bible is complete in all respects and I'm sure that our understanding is not complete. That said, I'm still curious why you've grafted a bit of Hinduism onto your Christian foundation. I'm sure that I can't help you in any way, so there may be no reason to answer the question, but when and why were you exposed to Hinduism and how did you work it into your personal beliefs?

[dtknowles]

R......my experience has been that those who were raised within Roman Catholicism and then grow up to reject God are, as a group, the most determined to deny God; wonder why that is?

Not reject God but reject religion. God is. Religion is made up. Happens more with Catholics because the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of Industrial Religion for profit, church first, people second, God third.

Tim

[1hole]

Rizzo, believe me, I make no insinuations. I state my beliefs, reasons and questions as clearly and briefly as I can and without guile. My questions may be penetrating, especially when I see illogical contradictions in other people's statements, but they shouldn't be taken as insults to anyone.

I asked my questions in attempt to better understand WHY & HOW you came to believe as you do; I still don't know.

Your recounting of how long reincarnation has been taught doesn't matter and is NOT what I asked. Point of fact, I probably understand why the foolishness of karma and reincarnation came to be more clearly than you but that isn't the question; why YOU believe it to be true and what foundation you choose to stand on is! Nor do I yet have a clue how you came to emphatically state - as a presumed fact - that there is no eternal hell. ??

If you find any of that insulting I'm sorry because it's not my purpose in asking.

[.429&H110]

Psalm 107:23 KJV They that go down to the sea in ships...
Why are we here?
To haul geezers to doctors, labs, haircuts, dentists.
You should too. Who is going to drive you in your turn?
We sit waiting in our masks. I have KJV on my ebook, turned to Psalms. Read Psalms. Aloud. Into your mask. Your blood pressure goes down. Worry goes away. It stops hurting. Time goes away. The waiting room leans in to hear. Nobody, nobody at all has complained, not in a waiting room. This is why David wrote prayers to sing. David was serving God. For our ease.
I would like to know why reading Psalms aloud eases pain, certainly lowers blood pressure, been doing a discrete survey, before and after, seems the distraction, concentration takes us away from pain.
Or is it the indwelling?
I am sorry if you reject this joy.
It's your choice.

[Rizzo]

Apologies, the concept of reincarnation isn’t an element of Catholicism and so I made the assumption that I did. I was also raised catholic, went to catholic school and was an altar boy...I’m quite certain that while it made my family happy it doesn’t mean squat in terms of salvation. My Sicilian grandmother wanted me to be a priest, she figured my mother had 5 sons so one needed to be given to God’s service, but it wasn’t my path.

To answer your question, I don’t know why we are here, but we are and I feel pretty good about knowing what things I should be doing while we’re here. I often fail to do them, and do other things that I shouldn’t, but I’ve accepted salvation and the rest matters little.

I am curious about your belief in reincarnation. Personally I don’t see the point in it, but I can’t say that we aren’t cycling through physical forms until the rapture and then we all go to judgement together. If that’s what’s going on, and nobody knows it and you never remember it, then why not be happy to go along for the ride? You don’t know that it’s happening, and you can’t change it if it is.

Good questions and I am happy to answer them.

The condensed version is that when I was in my early twenties I wasn't sure what I believed.
The Catholic/Christian faith was a good foundation but I just did not "feel" my connection with God, so I strayed away.
I was listening to a talk show from San Francisco called Mind Space, with Jeff Mischlov (sp?) and he had a guest Dr. Ralph Monroe who had just wrote a book titled Journeys Out of the Body, in which he described the experiences he was having.
This fascinated me and I read the book and wanted to experience that very thing.
This led to more books on the subject, with similar fascinating stories and I was discussing them with a friend at work and the next day he brought in a book of his girlfriend's. He said, "You should check this out, it's right up your alley."
(God works in mysterious ways)
The book was Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda.

Now, I had read about the Yogis of India and some of their "abilities" from practicing deep meditation techniques. Some could levitate, go out their bodies, materialize things, healings, etc.
So, I read the book and my whole life changed.

Out of body experiences, levitating, etc....which I wanted to do, got thrown by the wayside.
It was all about one's Spirituality, so it became a spiritual quest.
I learned that one could achieve Self Realization and KNOW God by meditation.
Self Realization meaning is to know that your True Self is Spirit/Soul and NOT this physical body.
To actually experience your Spiritual Self and Oneness with God, through meditation.
It also explained Karma and Reincarnation and how they worked.

Reincarnation made sense to me.
On a side note, there are many, many documented cases of people (mostly children) having recollections of a past lives.
Some Christians would say "It's the work of the Devil!!!.
I think not. There is something going on there.

We all get back home with God....eventually. We can take the oxcart to get there, or by deep meditation, one could take the jet plane back home instead.

I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
It's an amazing feeling.

So, since then, God has been more in my life.
I still get a feeling in my heart area that is sometimes overwhelming and puts tears to my eyes.
It is the Love of God and Him calling me back home is how I would describe it.

While there are Hinduism overtones in my beliefs because of my belief in reincarnation, that is about as far as it goes with me. The teachings of Jesus play a big role in my life today as well.

There you have it.
I hope that answered your questions.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, believe me, I make no insinuations. I state my beliefs, reasons and questions as clearly and briefly as I can and without guile. My questions may be penetrating, especially when I see illogical contradictions in other people's statements, but they shouldn't be taken as insults to anyone.

I asked my questions in attempt to better understand WHY & HOW you came to believe as you do; I still don't know.

Your recounting of how long reincarnation has been taught doesn't matter and is NOT what I asked. Point of fact, I probably understand why the foolishness of karma and reincarnation came to be more clearly than you but that isn't the question; why YOU believe it to be true and what foundation you choose to stand on is! Nor do I yet have a clue how you came to emphatically state - as a presumed fact - that there is no eternal hell. ??

If you find any of that insulting I'm sorry because it's not my purpose in asking.

Well, I will get to your questions in a bit but lets start off with why you have said that I deny God.
Why do you say that?

[Rizzo]

Psalm 107:23 KJV They that go down to the sea in ships...
Why are we here?
To haul geezers to doctors, labs, haircuts, dentists.
You should too. Who is going to drive you in your turn?
We sit waiting in our masks. I have KJV on my ebook, turned to Psalms. Read Psalms. Aloud. Into your mask. Your blood pressure goes down. Worry goes away. It stops hurting. Time goes away. The waiting room leans in to hear. Nobody, nobody at all has complained, not in a waiting room. This is why David wrote prayers to sing. David was serving God. For our ease.
I would like to know why reading Psalms aloud eases pain, certainly lowers blood pressure, been doing a discrete survey, before and after, seems the distraction, concentration takes us away from pain.
Or is it the indwelling?
I am sorry if you reject this joy.
It's your choice.

Reject your Joy?
No, I do not reject your joy.

Can't argue with your success!

But, to be honest, I might find it annoying while sitting patiently waiting for my appt. to have to listen someone reading the Bible aloud in that room.
Kinda rude, really.
Why does it have to be "Aloud"?
Read to yourself is more of a polite way, wouldn't you say?

[JimB..]

Good questions and I am happy to answer them.

The condensed version is that when I was in my early twenties I wasn't sure what I believed.
The Catholic/Christian faith was a good foundation but I just did not "feel" my connection with God, so I strayed away.
I was listening to a talk show from San Francisco called Mind Space, with Jeff Mischlov (sp?) and he had a guest Dr. Ralph Monroe who had just wrote a book titled Journeys Out of the Body, in which he described the experiences he was having.
This fascinated me and I read the book and wanted to experience that very thing.
This led to more books on the subject, with similar fascinating stories and I was discussing them with a friend at work and the next day he brought in a book of his girlfriend's. He said, "You should check this out, it's right up your alley."
(God works in mysterious ways)
The book was Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda.

Now, I had read about the Yogis of India and some of their "abilities" from practicing deep meditation techniques. Some could levitate, go out their bodies, materialize things, healings, etc.
So, I read the book and my whole life changed.

Out of body experiences, levitating, etc....which I wanted to do, got thrown by the wayside.
It was all about one's Spirituality, so it became a spiritual quest.
I learned that one could achieve Self Realization and KNOW God by meditation.
Self Realization meaning is to know that your True Self is Spirit/Soul and NOT this physical body.
To actually experience your Spiritual Self and Oneness with God, through meditation.
It also explained Karma and Reincarnation and how they worked.

Reincarnation made sense to me.
On a side note, there are many, many documented cases of people (mostly children) having recollections of a past lives.
Some Christians would say "It's the work of the Devil!!!.
I think not. There is something going on there.

We all get back home with God....eventually. We can take the oxcart to get there, or by deep meditation, one could take the jet plane back home instead.

I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
It's an amazing feeling.

So, since then, God has been more in my life.
I still get a feeling in my heart area that is sometimes overwhelming and puts tears to my eyes.
It is the Love of God and Him calling me back home is how I would describe it.

While there are Hinduism overtones in my beliefs because of my belief in reincarnation, that is about as far as it goes with me. The teachings of Jesus play a big role in my life today as well.

There you have it.
I hope that answered your questions.

Thank you.

Many people see God in the weather, in a baby, in a forest, a flower, a hummingbird or a bumble bee. I believe it is the nature of God to be in all things, and that you find him in yourself is a blessing not enjoyed by most.

You seem to be struggling with an apparent conflict between your understanding of what God is saying to you and something you believe. Have you considered that God is indeed saying that he wants you to be with him, but your fear of reincarnation is standing in the way of his message about how to come home? I can’t imagine the fear you’re facing, the difficult path you’ve walked over many decades, the hard won insight, and in a moment you may come back as a newborn knowing nothing of it and only hoping to do better next time.

What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?

You didn’t come to your beliefs carelessly, but undertake this investigation with the same prayerful rigor and inquisitive mind and I’m sure that it will further enlighten you.

This conversation is terribly uncomfortable for me, I am often not on the right path and I generally doubt that I can be of much assistance to anyone in finding their salvation. I am nonetheless confident in my salvation and I live the life I live not in hopes of earning salvation, but to celebrate that it has been given to me. I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.

[dtknowles]

.... I am nonetheless confident in my salvation ....

What makes you so confident?

Tim

[.429&H110]

Rizzo
You might be annoyed hearing my wife and me swapping Psalms? We aren't noisy loud. Quieter than a deaf geezer on a cellphone. I am amazed nobody has complained, usually the crowd wants more. These are broken lonely old people. My wife and I did 71 trips to the Tucson Orthopedic Institute in two years, finally got her hips installed after we fixed her feet. Busy nursies keep taking her blood pressure, that's how I discovered Psalms are better than pills.
Psalm 6 KJV is a perennial favorite at TOI:

Don't Rebuke Me in Your Anger

1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

2Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

3My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?

4Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

6I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.

7Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.

8Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

9The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.

10Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

One old lady recited the 23rd as we were leaving.
That's a good one for a surgery waiting room.

Are there people who do not want me to be a Christian? Ayuh.
As Rhett Butler said "The dogs bark, and the caravan passes on."
Repent
Revive
Redeem
and maybe we might save America. It's what we are here for.

[.429&H110]

wow sorry. that was way too evangelical
I am ticked off that the State can close a church.
Isolate all these old people. Starve them.
try this out:
I would not shoot your reloads
and you would not shoot mine.
A load for my Ruger SBH might be hot
300 gr & compressed H110? No!
What works for me
might not work for you.
That's why God gave us
Reloads For Your Soul Vol 1&2
Ignore it at your own risk.
"Did God really say...?"
Only lie the deceiver has, and it still works.

[JimB..]

What makes you so confident?

Tim

My faith.

[frydaddy96]

Why are we here?

To experience life.

Nothing more, nothing less. The world would be pretty boring if we were all good and only did those things necessary to live.

[Rizzo]

Thank you.

Many people see God in the weather, in a baby, in a forest, a flower, a hummingbird or a bumble bee. I believe it is the nature of God to be in all things, and that you find him in yourself is a blessing not enjoyed by most.

You seem to be struggling with an apparent conflict between your understanding of what God is saying to you and something you believe. Have you considered that God is indeed saying that he wants you to be with him, but your fear of reincarnation is standing in the way of his message about how to come home? I can’t imagine the fear you’re facing, the difficult path you’ve walked over many decades, the hard won insight, and in a moment you may come back as a newborn knowing nothing of it and only hoping to do better next time.

What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?

You didn’t come to your beliefs carelessly, but undertake this investigation with the same prayerful rigor and inquisitive mind and I’m sure that it will further enlighten you.

This conversation is terribly uncomfortable for me, I am often not on the right path and I generally doubt that I can be of much assistance to anyone in finding their salvation. I am nonetheless confident in my salvation and I live the life I live not in hopes of earning salvation, but to celebrate that it has been given to me. I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.
I do not understand how you drew those conclusions from what I posted.

Struggles?
No, no struggles. I do not see what I said that would suggest that.
Fear of reincarnation?
The fear I am facing?
Please explain where you see that in my post.
They are hardly the case.

The new found spirituality I described in my youth is very much here now with me today.
It is wonderful.
I am fully comfortable with my beliefs.


What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?

Ahh-h! Now the "whitnessing" begins.
You are asking me to put aside my beliefs and come to yours.
You see my beliefs as wrong, I assume.
You are doing your Christian duty to be "a fisher of men".
Uh-huh.

Trappings of the Catholic Church?
....and those would be?
The Bible is indeed the core of what Catholics believe.
Do you believe Catholics are Christian?

Do your beliefs feel threatened when you read things like what I posted?
Reincarnation seems to be an issue that most Christians raise their eyebrows at and get upset about.
Does it conflict with your beliefs? If so, how?


I wish you the best on your journey and I hope that you find peace.

Well, thank you for that. I have found peace and spirituality in my beliefs.
I hope you have too.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo
...You might be annoyed hearing my wife and me swapping Psalms?
No, I did not say that.
Please re-read my reply to you.
What I said was:
"But, to be honest, I might find it annoying while sitting patiently waiting for my appt. to have to listen someone reading the Bible aloud in that room."

[1hole]

Well, I will get to your questions in a bit but lets start off with why you have said that I deny God.
Why do you say that?

I said it based on what you've said.

But, I speak as a Christian who finds deep spiritual rest with the God of the Holy Bible. It's He whom you deny; all others are smooth Satanic deceptions, i.e., antichrists.

[JimB..]

I do not understand how you drew those conclusions from what I posted.

Struggles?
No, no struggles. I do not see what I said that would suggest that.
Fear of reincarnation?
The fear I am facing?
Please explain where you see that in my post.
They are hardly the case.

The new found spirituality I described in my youth is very much here now with me today.
It is wonderful.
I am fully comfortable with my beliefs.



Ahh-h! Now the "whitnessing" begins.
You are asking me to put aside my beliefs and come to yours.
You see my beliefs as wrong, I assume.
You are doing your Christian duty to be "a fisher of men".
Uh-huh.

Trappings of the Catholic Church?
....and those would be?
The Bible is indeed the core of what Catholics believe.
Do you believe Catholics are Christian?

Do your beliefs feel threatened when you read things like what I posted?
Reincarnation seems to be an issue that most Christians raise their eyebrows at and get upset about.
Does it conflict with your beliefs? If so, how?



Well, thank you for that. I have found peace and spirituality in my beliefs.
I hope you have too.

LOL, like I said, I’m the last one to witness, and it’s not my job to convince you to abandon your beliefs and adopt mine. As for your struggle, if you don’t see it then I’m not sure you understand yourself as well as you think you do.

I do sincerely wish you the best.

[GhostHawk]

I won't tell anyone what to believe or not to believe.

I wasted 40 years being the goat that would not be led, did not want a shepherd, good or otherwise.

Did not want green pastures, prefered the rocky steeps. Did not much care for still water, liked water that moved, trickled and flowed.

But eventually I began to see looking back all the places where my Lord carried me, protected me, sheltered me.
And eventually he called in a way that I heard.

For the last 6 years I have been his, been working at being more loving, forgiving. Less angry, yelling.
Still not perfect, doubt I ever will be. But I am making progress.

And once in a while I am able to help someone. Or tell a story of my past that may help someone though a rough patch.

I think the Lord works his mysterious ways mostly through people. And if I can lend a hand now and then. Well, that is good enough for me.

[dtknowles]

I won't tell anyone what to believe or not to believe.

I wasted 40 years being the goat that would not be led, did not want a shepherd, good or otherwise.

Did not want green pastures, prefered the rocky steeps. Did not much care for still water, liked water that moved, trickled and flowed.

But eventually I began to see looking back all the places where my Lord carried me, protected me, sheltered me.
And eventually he called in a way that I heard.

For the last 6 years I have been his, been working at being more loving, forgiving. Less angry, yelling.
Still not perfect, doubt I ever will be. But I am making progress.

And once in a while I am able to help someone. Or tell a story of my past that may help someone though a rough patch.

I think the Lord works his mysterious ways mostly through people. And if I can lend a hand now and then. Well, that is good enough for me.

This is good and right. I have always been happier and had a better life when I was helping others. I think God's mysterious ways are not so mysterious. It seems if you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you will be a happier soul.

Tim

[dtknowles]

My faith.

What gave you that faith, where did it come from? I know that everything comes from God but how did God instill you with faith in the Bible?

Tim

[JimB..]

What gave you that faith, where did it come from? I know that everything comes from God but how did God instill you with faith in the Bible?

Tim

It’s a hard question, and while I’ve been drafting responses for over an hour I can’t find the words to form a coherent reply. It’s the sort of thing that I think requires a conversation, not an internet post.

[dtknowles]

It’s a hard question, and while I’ve been drafting responses for over an hour I can’t find the words to form a coherent reply. It’s the sort of thing that I think requires a conversation, not an internet post.

I am fine with you giving it a rest. We have been having a conversation here but the written word is so concrete and the spoken word can be nebulous. It is clear God gave you faith in the bible, maybe even through the intercession of the Holy Spirit. God maybe saw that you needed that. Of course you thank God, I am sure. Do you know how lucky you are to have faith to not have doubts?

Tim

[Thundarstick]

It’s a hard question, and while I’ve been drafting responses for over an hour I can’t find the words to form a coherent reply. It’s the sort of thing that I think requires a conversation, not an internet post.

Jim we are told in the scriptures how we are sure.

2Pe 1:3-11

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

When we cultivate these attributes we know our faith is well placed. Note that these attributes don't run contrary to any other religion.

From the message Galatians 5, 22-23

But what happens when we live God’s way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely.

[Rizzo]

I said it based on what you've said.

Such as what?
It's easy to say "what you've said", but back it up with some facts.


But, I speak as a Christian who finds deep spiritual rest with the God of the Holy Bible. It's He whom you deny;

Oh, the God of the Holy Bible. The Creator of all things.
That God?
There is only one God and you know it and it is that God that is discussed here.
Yet, you are calling me an atheist again.
Back it up 1Hole.
You can't, because you are spreading false statements about me and others and have no facts to support your accusation.

That gives you a Credibility score of: ZERO
Why should we believe anything you say when you can't support the statements you make?
Hmmm?

[Rizzo]

LOL, like I said, I’m the last one to witness, and it’s not my job to convince you to abandon your beliefs and adopt mine.

Yet, isn't that what you were doing when you said:
"What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?


As for your struggle, if you don’t see it then I’m not sure you understand yourself as well as you think you do.
I am asking you to explain it to me.

Also, I spent a bit of time replying to your questions about how I ended up with my beliefs and also asked some (several) questions to you about issues, yet you ignore them.

Still waiting.

[JimB..]

Jim we are told in the scriptures how we are sure.

2Pe 1:3-11

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

When we cultivate these attributes we know our faith is well placed. Note that these attributes don't run contrary to any other religion.

From the message Galatians 5, 22-23

But what happens when we live God’s way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely.

Thank you, not needing to force our way in life is an accurate description in my experience.


I am fine with you giving it a rest. We have been having a conversation here but the written word is so concrete and the spoken word can be nebulous. It is clear God gave you faith in the bible, maybe even through the intercession of the Holy Spirit. God maybe saw that you needed that. Of course you thank God, I am sure. Do you know how lucky you are to have faith to not have doubts?

Tim

I suppose that I’m lucky. I went through a long period with a lot of questions and doubts, it’s good to be past that.


Yet, isn't that what you were doing when you said:
"What if you were to set that aside for a moment and return to your roots? Strip off all the trappings of the catholic church and go right to the core of the gospel?


I am asking you to explain it to me.

Also, I spent a bit of time replying to your questions about how I ended up with my beliefs and also asked some (several) questions to you about issues, yet you ignore them.

Still waiting.

Not at all, I was saying that you might find additional peace if you go back a few steps and explore going forward again. I certainly didn’t say that you need to end up believing what I believe.

As for your apparent, to me anyway, fear of reincarnation, you seem to be lamenting the fact that God is calling you home, but that you probably aren’t going to be able to be with Him even though that’s what you want. Instead you expect to be reincarnated repeatedly until you get “it” right. Maybe I misunderstood. As I tried to say earlier, there is nothing about reincarnation that offends my beliefs, but the idea that we can somehow become good enough to earn salvation through repeated reincarnation doesn’t make any sense to me. In billions of real experiences has anyone ever walked a perfect path?

I did appreciate your earlier response, but I didn’t see any questions in it, just a timeline of how you developed your beliefs. As I said earlier, it is a blessing that you see God in you, but the way you describe yourself it seems that you’re missing a connection and you know it. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I certainly have no desire to debate it with you, it’s either real or it’s not and only you can know.

Apologies if I appear to be evangelizing, not my intention and I promise that I neither need nor deserve any credit for “saving” you or anyone else...not my job.

[Rizzo]

Not at all, I was saying that you might find additional peace if you go back a few steps and explore going forward again. I certainly didn’t say that you need to end up believing what I believe.

Well, I appreciate your concern.
I am going forwards, no need to go backwards.
If I am already trying to follow Jesus' teachings as part of my Spiritual journey, what would I be going back to?
Dropping the Karma/Reincarnation belief? Is that what you mean?


As for your apparent, to me anyway, fear of reincarnation, you seem to be lamenting the fact that God is calling you home

I think you misunderstand (perhaps I did not elaborate enough on that) what I experience when I get that feeling.
It really is a personal thing but it is not lamenting.
I get that feeling sometimes for no reason. Sometimes if I get lazy and do not meditate, I get it.
"Calling me back home" is how I describe it.
He is "saying" "Don't give up! Keep at it! You are on the right path! Come to Me!"
Hopefully that makes more sense.

You see, with meditation, you have a....let's call it a tool, that you can use to advance Spiritually and know your Oneness with God and all of His creations NOW, rather than having to wait until death to see what happens.
We came from God and ultimately we will all be "back home" with Him.



.... but that you probably aren’t going to be able to be with Him even though that’s what you want.

What a terrible thing to say to someone.


I did appreciate your earlier response, but I didn’t see any questions in it, just a timeline of how you developed your beliefs.

Yes, but we had some exchanges since then.
See Post #32.
Lot's of question marks (to you) in there.


As I said earlier, it is a blessing that you see God in you, but the way you describe yourself it seems that you’re missing a connection and you know it. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I certainly have no desire to debate it with you, it’s either real or it’s not and only you can know.

<sigh>
I am missing a connection and I know it.
Yes, perhaps you did misunderstand.


Apologies if I appear to be evangelizing, not my intention and I promise that I neither need nor deserve any credit for “saving” you or anyone else...not my job.

Apology accepted. Yes, it appeared to me that you were, but I believe you.
We're good JimB.

Regarding the "saving" part.
I would say that I was "saved" back in my twenties when I found my new Spirituality.
It was a wonderful thing.

[dtknowles]

Jim we are told in the scriptures how we are sure.....

If you have to be told how you are sure then you are not sure you are just parroting back scripture. I am fine with him not being able to explain it in writing. I believe he is sure in his faith.

Tim

[.429&H110]

So, God put us on this earth......why?

That was the question.

For me, that's easy, for you
seems to be a hard question.
Theo (God) Logos (Word).

To answer a question with a question:
There are 64 topics in this forum
one is prayers asked and answered
another is you are foolish to pray.
If you think prayer is foolish
why are you here?
Haven't you seen prayer answered?
I have.

Chronicles of Riddick:
Cleanser:"...doubts...".
Vaaco:" If you have come to try my faith, you only try my patience".
Cleanser:"Oh, no, never that".

Do you think you can convert me to a pagan faith? Been there, done that, pagan don't work. Yoga made me limber. Kendo taught me control. Fitters taught me to measure. LaoTse taught me to cut. Scuba taught me to plan. All vanity. Where's the joy?
Deep Theological Discussion with no joy? Wednesday night, down the street, you can find it. If you choose. Or don't. Your loss.

Motion to adjourn. nunc demittis.

[Rizzo]

So, God put us on this earth......why?

That was the question.

For me, that's easy, for you
seems to be a hard question.
Theo (God) Logos (Word).

I'm not sure who you are referring to.
Your replies tend to be a bit confusing.

I'll Assume you are referring to me.
A hard question? It's a question that I put forth to solicit input and discussion on the subject.
I stated my views and you have stated that for you it is easy, yet I did not see where you answered it.



To answer a question with a question:
There are 64 topics in this forum
one is prayers asked and answered
another is you are foolish to pray.
If you think prayer is foolish
why are you here?
Haven't you seen prayer answered?
I have.

Prayer is not the subject of this thread.
Where did I say prayer is foolish?


Do you think you can convert me to a pagan faith? Been there, done that, pagan don't work. Yoga made me limber. Kendo taught me control. Fitters taught me to measure. LaoTse taught me to cut. Scuba taught me to plan. All vanity. Where's the joy?
Deep Theological Discussion with no joy? Wednesday night, down the street, you can find it. If you choose. Or don't. Your loss.

More cryptic babble.
Sorry you have no joy.
For me there is a lot of joy.


Motion to adjourn. nunc demittis.

Motion denied.

[1hole]

Such as what?
It's easy to say "what you've said", but back it up with some facts.

Oh, the God of the Holy Bible. The Creator of all things.
That God?

There is only one God and you know it and it is that God that is discussed here.

Yet, you are calling me an atheist again.

Back it up 1Hole.
You can't, because you are spreading false statements about me and others and have no facts to support your accusation.

Weeell ... it's a bit more than that isn't it?

I'll stipulate that I speak of my understandings. I may misunderstand something that's been posted but I never make "accusations"; if you think that then you misunderstand me.


That gives you a Credibility score of: ZERO
Why should we believe anything you say when you can't support the statements you make? Hmmm?

IF we could only say things we have published documentation for (and that everyone accepts) then this would be a lonely place. The way this really works is: One guy says what he believes to be true and others say what they believe to be true; that seems to be fair enough to me. Therefore we shouldn't need to play "king of the mountain" games and beat on each other in childish attempts to win on points.

And, yeah, I did mean "that God", i.e., Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the one in the Bible! So far as I know he is the only one (save the antichrist Allah) who presents himself as God. THAT God's words (scripture) are what theology and this forum is about, all other religions are nothing but humanist philosophies.

You'll have to "prove" what you say about what I have supposedly "spread" about you and unnamed "others" because I have no clue what you're talking about; do you want to support your allegations about that?

My last thought for your consideration; say whatever you wish, any way you wish, any time you wish and that's fine with me but being deliberately snarky in personal attacks doesn't add anything to your own credibility. :)

[Lloyd Smale]

God put us here because he wanted to. He doesnt owe and explanation.

[Lloyd Smale]

Not reject God but reject religion. God is. Religion is made up. Happens more with Catholics because the Roman Catholic Church is the epitome of Industrial Religion for profit, church first, people second, God third.

Tim

sorry tim but the catholic church just happens to have the most people in it. Industrial religion? Just look at the tv evangelists that give a sermon and then ask little old ladys staying up late to donate money while they drive home with there 500 dollar suits in there benz. Look at the new protestant faiths that pop up daily by someone that is smooth talking enough to make a living off a church full of people. Betcha your pastor makes more money then my priest does. just typical catholic bashing from someone that doesnt have a clue and has probably never been in a catholic church. I think for the most part the animosity comes from the fact that every catholic church believes the same thing and you cant find two protestant churches that agree on a single passage in the bible.

[.429&H110]

Yes I do babble really well!
Glad you caught the difference!
Theology without Scripture is babble.
I answered this once.
We are here to serve God.
My joy is He lets me.

Matthew 12:29-31
And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is, Hear, O, Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: This is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Amen

I wanted to marry a Catholic girl, so I went to catechism. My parents convinced me otherwise. So did the Nuns.

That's where I learned that Simeon said when he held the Baby, "nunc demittis servum tuum Domine secundum verbum tuum in pace."
Luke wrote in Greek,
"nyn apolygeis ton doulon sou, despota, kata to rhema sou en eirene."
"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Luke 2:29-30
Amen
nunc demittis

[1hole]

.... I think for the most part the animosity comes from the fact that every catholic church believes the same thing and you cant find two protestant churches that agree on a single passage in the bible.

"Facts?" I don't know if you have been taught that stuff or just made it up yourself but you're wrong, neither of those "facts" are even close to being true.

You are aware that there are quite a few splinter RC groups and then there are the various RC orders that strongly disagree on specific points of doctrine. And nothing in anyone's religious history book comes close to matching the massive division between Rome and Constantinople and it's different Popes happily excommunicating each other.

Your (so-called) "protestant" denominations agree on at least 90% of their doctrines, it's the near trivial that we disagree on and no one of us ever has or now wants to burn anyone at the stake over it. But we're not at all sure what the RC leadership would still do if they still could.

[Lloyd Smale]

"Facts?" I don't know if you have been taught that stuff or just made it up yourself but you're wrong, neither of those "facts" are even close to being true.

You are aware that there are quite a few splinter RC groups and then there are the various RC orders that strongly disagree on specific points of doctrine. And nothing in anyone's religious history book comes close to matching the massive division between Rome and Constantinople and it's different Popes happily excommunicating each other.

Your (so-called) "protestant" denominations agree on at least 90% of their doctrines, it's the near trivial that we disagree on and no one of us ever has or now wants to burn anyone at the stake over it. But we're not at all sure what the RC leadership would still do if they still could.

Most protestants cant even agree on what a scripture is referring to. Its why one church has become more then a 100 and new ones start every day. Matter of fact in most cases even in the same parish you argue about it at bible study. Catholic church just seems to intimidate people. I dont know why. We dont control you or effect your day to day life. The pope has no control over you. No more then the queen of england.

Yup the catholic church has wealth. So what. Even cardinals and bishops get little more then minimum wage and the pope works for free. How much does your pastor make. How much did someone like Billy graham make in his life? How much did jim and tammy baker steal from there gullible followers. Keep in mind too that the catholic church is the biggest charitable organization in the world.

Also the most powerful force fighting against abortion in this country. A church that you will NEVER see a homosexual women standing up front as a pastor. Catholic church still wants to burn people at the stake!! That is absolutely ridiculous and proves my point about blind prejudices. How many people were killed in the name of the protestant faith!! Lets talk about England, Ireland, the salem witch trials? Now the puritans, that was a real sane bunch:roll: Suppose they believe 90 percent of what you believe?? Mormans? Jws? yup there protestant too! Do they believe the same 90 percent as you. That would explain alot[smilie=1:

Fact is if you want to use that 90 percent crap martin luther's beliefs are alot closer to todays catholic beliefs then they are to about 90 percent of the protestant churches today. He is no doubt rolling over in his grave seeing what has become of his reform. The protestant faith in again 90 percent of the churches that have popped up and turned into tv show entertainment and Jim Jones cult like (yup he was protestant too) churches are so far from his original believes that the word protestant doesnt even apply anymore. But some of you just go ahead and keep hating. If you hate catholics maybe youll not bother hating someone else. Maybe someday all the churches will be run by liberal homosexuals and abortions will be routine things your family doctor does for a 50 dollar appointment. Whats next? You going to claim priest molest kids and protestant ministers dont:roll:

[Guardian]

No doubt, there are more people "in" church than "of the church." The number of followers is not what gives something credibility, it merely gives it the appearance of credibility; an illusion. Let us not forget the difference between "church" in Holy reference and "church" as a place to go. Most of us are not clear which one we mean. The two are very different. You may go to the church and not be part of the Church. I don't care which denomination within the Christian faith we want to discuss, that fact applies.

You cannot profess to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and at the same time deny "...no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (John 14:6) That was one of his chief teachings. None of us are good enough to get there on our own. The Law was given to us as a measuring stick so that we can clearly see we fail miserably and that there IS only one way. There is no such thing as a "good" person, only people that aren't as bad as others. Look at politics within our country to see how "I'm not as bad as he/she is" plays out.

The purpose of human life is to be in communion with God! Epic fail. Did God set us up for that? I don't know and I don't expect to get an answer. Maybe it was all part of a plan to separate the seed from the chaff. Maybe life is the Great Winnowing. Look around and its easy to see what happens when humans have it easy, we find new ways to sin, new things to focus on besides God (which he calls idols). The story of the Garden of Eden is one of selfishness and jealousy, in addition to rebellion.

How do I know God is real? Occam's Razor says the simplest solution is almost always the best. It is far easier to believe that the things I've experienced in life are for a purpose and part of a grander plan than it is to believe luck and fate (two common idols) or mere coincidence. I come from a broken home. Much of my life I've wondered why God would cause me such pain and anguish. Well, it took more than 30 years for it to be revealed to me. It turns out I needed to experience that pain and anguish so that I could empathize with my nieces who currently live with me. They don't need someone who can sympathize, they need someone who knows what they are going through, understands the frustrations and self loathing. I didn't bring them into my home with the knowledge that I was trained for the job, or the expectation that I could connect. That was revealed to me after the fact. I was nearly in tears from the overwhelming realization that there was a specific reason for me to endure what I had. (For clarity, I'm not saying I had it particularly bad).

That's one example of hundreds I could present. I've been so close to death so many times it isn't even funny; and there is no other reason besides God's Grace that I'm not and really haven't been severely injured in any of it. Even a gunshot wound that could have gone anywhere hit me in the most inconsequential spot it could have. No person had control of the firearm, my friend dropped it; so it could have landed anywhere. I thank God it has a 410 shell in it instead of a 45 Colt. I know, "if God were really taking care of you, you wouldn't have gotten shot at all." Well, we don't know that. Who knows what I might have gotten into if I'd not been laid up on the couch. Or my friend may have killed someone had he not sworn off guns after that incident.

But why is it so hard for us to believe that God gave us a manual? Is it just because men hate reading instruction manuals that they reject the Bible, or is it a distaste for the what the Bible directs that men commonly will not read or follow instructions?

I completely agree with another poster who pointed out that acceptance of Salvation through Christ comes with change. I'm not suggesting we're immediately perfect, or that we ever will be prior to our arrival in Heaven, but the change can't help but happen as your flaws are revealed to you. But an odd thing also happens. Things that you might believe are flaws may be revealed to you to be part of your individual uniqueness. Satan likes for us to believe that what makes us unique is a flaw, because it is something we cannot separate from ourselves.....it is unalienable. Sin is alienable....though I will be the first to tell you I have not conquered it. I don't have to. Jesus did it for me! I praise Him for it.

There was a time when I did not want to hear this Truth. I fought to avoid The Church for a long time. I do believe that most religions put far too many "good ideas" into the "rule" or "Law" category. Christ summarized the Law with Love, but people mistake Love for the feeling they get when they want something. Love is defined in 1 Corinthians 13.

If we cannot agree that the Bible is fact and without error, then we have nothing to discuss. The Bible is very clear that not all who have eyes can see, and not all who have ears can hear. (Acts 28:26-27, Mark 8:18, Mark 4:12, Matthew 13:14-15, Jeremiah 5:21)

Bottom line (pun not intended) - Too many people are trying to be good enough and it will never happen. If you wonder if you are Saved, you are not. When you are, there will be no doubt.

[1hole]

Catholic church just seems to intimidate people. I dont know why. We dont control you or effect your day to day life. The pope has no control over you. No more then the queen of england.

You may think the RCC "intimidates" others but it really doesn't even figure in our thoughts.


Yup the catholic church has wealth. So what. Even cardinals and bishops get little more then minimum wage and the pope works for free. How much does your pastor make.

Your leaders "make" little but they live like kings. My pastor is a volunteer and he doesn't live like a king.

How much did someone like Billy graham make in his life? How much did jim and tammy baker steal from there gullible followers.

Billy Graham is an evangalist, not a pastor with the daily demands of a local minister; he lives on the income from his many books.

The Bakers were thieves and when they were caught they paid the legal penalties. And they were by no means "protestants" to anyone but people like you. (We, you and I, went through all this years ago but you persist in factual error of who and what the Protestant churches are.)

You should know Protestants were and remain those few denominations that came directly out of Roman Catholism in the Reformation of the 1500s; i.e., Lutherens, Church of England/Episcopal, Presbyterian. Meaning every denomination that isn't RCC is not by that fact Protestant.


Keep in mind too that the catholic church is the biggest charitable organization in the world.

As a religious organization with masses of employees that's probably true but, as a charitable organization, the RCC is a minor player on the world stage.


Also the most powerful force fighting against abortion in this country. A church that you will NEVER see a homosexual women standing up front as a pastor.

Is all of that any part of this topic? But, what you say seems to be true as you state it, meaning the RC leadership's homosexual activity and child molestation activity is (usually) well hidden.


Catholic church still wants to burn people at the stake!!

That's not what I said is it? My thinking is about what would the RCC still be doing IF they still had that kind of political power. And remember this Lloyd; it wasn't a deep change of kindly hearts that finally brought an end to the RC's burning of "dissenters", it was their (enraged) loss of political control over kings of the world.


How many people were killed in the name of the protestant faith!! Lets talk about England, Ireland, ...

Okay, let's talk about England and Ireland.

The Protestant English invasion of Catholic Ireland was in the northeast corner of the island. That caused some hard feelings (which continues today) but the fighting was and remains about which group has political dominance in Ulster, not about religion, as such.

England was ruled by Henry VIII and it was he that decreed his kingdom to be free from the RCC. I know of no murder of Catholics over religion at that time but when the crown passed down to she who is still called "Bloody Mary" in English history, she began a campaign to kill all who would not submit to Rome. As you should realize, that caused some ill will and then the Protestants killed any violent Catholic they could find but, again, it was a fight for political dominance, not religion.


...the salem witch trials? Now the puritans, that was a real sane bunch:roll: Suppose they believe 90 percent of what you believe??

First, you misunderstand history; the Salem witch trials were about witches, not religion.


Mormans? Jws? yup there protestant too! Do they believe the same 90 percent as you. That would explain alot[smilie=1:

No Lloyd, they are not Protestant. In fact they aren't Christian at because they live in an entirely different spiritual world. (Ditto Jim Jones, et al.)


...Whats next? You going to claim priest molest kids and protestant ministers dont:roll:

No, I won't claim perfection in ministers. But I will claim that I know of no denomination except your's that has a "defective priest protection program" in place.


That's enough.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Gentlemen-- this thread continues to be closely watched. It seems as though you are about to reignite the Thirty Years War. Soon comments about other's religions will bring a close to the thread. Warning.

[Hogtamer]

Thank you guardian for your spiritual insight and well reasoned defense of the faith.

[Guardian]

Hogtamer,

Praise God you were able to get something out of it. Thank you for the encouragement.

[Lloyd Smale]

No doubt, there are more people "in" church than "of the church." The number of followers is not what gives something credibility, it merely gives it the appearance of credibility; an illusion. Let us not forget the difference between "church" in Holy reference and "church" as a place to go. Most of us are not clear which one we mean. The two are very different. You may go to the church and not be part of the Church. I don't care which denomination within the Christian faith we want to discuss, that fact applies.

you said it all right there. Why someone worrys about what church i go to or has to justify his own by putting down other faiths kind of precludes them from calling themselves Christians in the first place. God is great and we all should praise him. I doubt he cares what building you walk into to do it. Probably not a catholic, protestant or jewish line at the pearly gates. No doubt what country you live in what race you are or what state you live in or if whether or not your cross has Jesus on it matters one bit. One thing God isnt going to forgive is your hate and you wanting to make the rift in chistianity even larger. Today ESPECIALLY we should be comming together with a common goal and fighting the liberals that want us gone. There the enemy not the church down the street with a different sign on it thats praying and praising God just like you are.

The liberals count on the us vs them fights between christians. They know that thats the only way they will make christianity something thats just in history books. Just look at our supreme court right now today. The liberals claiming they dont want a catholic to be appointed basicaly because she has to many morals and isnt willing to budge on killing babies. Saying that Catholics are just to strong in there beliefs. But like you said just going to church doesnt make you a catholic or a baptist ect.

Pelosi and Biden were born into catholic familys and claim the title but dont walk the walk. The remind me of a Buddhist walking around with a barrett 50 cal. My guess is the same thing applys here. The ones that do the most catholic bashings are the ones that dont even attend there local church. A kkk meeting would make them feel much more at home. Same ones that think the civil war is still happening today and the ones that claim there super patriots but never felt they owed it to this country to serve in the military.

[1hole]

.... our wonderful Catholic neighbors have certainly modelled the Christian faith for us without a lot of fanfare when we needed it the most.

I know my wife and I will never pass a Catholic church again without offering a prayer of thanksgiving to the Lord.

Good observation; some of my oldest and dearest friends are good Roman Catholics. BUT, I've never observed any significant moral difference between them and good Baptists, Methodists, etc, or even good JWs, Mormons or atheists. I mean good people are good people and no religious belief has has a lock on good people.

I have no personal problem with others religious beliefs, I know religious errors don't disqualify anyone from the family of man. My differences are with religions doctrines, not personal, so we simply accept each other as people and respectfully go from there. In fact, and in spite of some folk's wild eyed accusations otherwise,
I've never seen people being snotty to others because of a different belief system. But, respectfully correcting hyperbolic accusations shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.

However, I have heard plenty of verbal snottyness between some snotty people but they are what they are and religion, as such, had little to do with it. Seems frictions follow contentious people everywhere they go! That should not be.

[exile]

Why are we here?

"By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it." 1 Peter 5:12 (E.S.V.)

Again, why are we here? I guess there are as many different answers to that question as there are people on this earth.

This verse has been coming to mind often over the last several months, and so, for me personally, that is my answer to the question of "why are we here?"

To stand firm in the grace of God.

As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

exile

[Muser]

I'm new here so I apologize if I post information that has already been well covered.

I'm old enough for welfare and S.S., so I've been around long enough to have accumulated many life experiences and have studied religious topics of various subjects enough that I may have some thoughts worth contemplating.

The Op asked why are we here? That age old question of "What is life all about"?

My answer is a basic, simple one.

Looking at the Ten Commandments in Exodus, chapter 20 we can readily see a focus that exists.
In fact all of the Old Testament Law that continues through the next several Old Testament books continue with the same focus.
This focus is about personal relationships and interactions between a person and God; and a person and their relationships with other people.
What this focus reflects is that God cares about relationships.
I've summed this up for years with this statement- God is a God of personal relationships.
In fact as we continue reading in the New Testament, we see this focus is continued to be reflected all the way through Revelation 22- the final end of the Bible. When Jesus condensed the Old Testament law in Matt.28:38-40, he also maintained this focus.

So, the purpose to life as understood from the Holy Bible is to live in such a way that we enjoy the life we've been given as much as possible in good relationship with God, and everyone around us.
As we do this we automatically cause a result of honoring and a glory to God because it shows His plan to have been worthy and perfect.
had mankind not fallen into sin this would have continued to be the way life would be for everyone.
But since it has happened, we, and all creation are on a path that ends with God's perfect creation and plan being restored.
In the meantime we, if we respond correctly in life, get to learn how to live well as responsible free agents, with free will, and without constantly messing up; preparing us for an eternity of peaceful life in God's New Kingdom. (Rev. 21 & 22)
In this aspect I refer to this life as being "boot camp" for eternity for each of us.

Having related this, there is a wrinkle.
No matter how well we live according to God's plan for us, wretched hardship and disaster can at any time occur in our lives, and those we love; and it can be brought by other humans.
Responding well, correctly in these times is how we learn the hard lessons of controlling ourselves as free moral agents.
Learning to live keeping the "Big Picture" in mind is a process and takes time. Early in life I learned to keep in mind this Big Picture in this way- using the idea that we will be alive somewhere 10,000 years from now, how important is what's happening in the moment going to be at that time?
Combining this with trying to maintain a concern for others around us, I've found that it can often put "things" into a correct perspective for me.

[Rizzo]

......
I'm old enough for welfare and S.S., so I've been around long enough to have accumulated many life experiences and have studied religious topics of various subjects enough that I may have some thoughts worth contemplating.

Hello Muser,
Welcome to the Forum.
Yes, ...with age comes wisdom, doesn't it.



The Op asked why are we here? That age old question of "What is life all about"?

My answer is a basic, simple one.

Looking at the Ten Commandments in Exodus, chapter 20 we can readily see a focus that exists.
In fact all of the Old Testament Law that continues through the next several Old Testament books continue with the same focus.
This focus is about personal relationships and interactions between a person and God; and a person and their relationships with other people.

Well, that sounds good but the "interaction" part suggests that there is communication, of some sort, between the person and God.
While I have "felt" God's presence in me there is no definitive statement made to me. Prayer is a one way street also.
I am currently re-reading the Bible again and I am in Genesis at this point.
Lots of interaction between God and people back then. Even "appearances" of God to some back then.
Since Jesus, there's not much going on these days.



So, the purpose to life as understood from the Holy Bible is to live in such a way that we enjoy the life we've been given as much as possible in good relationship with God, and everyone around us.
As we do this we automatically cause a result of honoring and a glory to God because it shows His plan to have been worthy and perfect.

I know this sounds terrible but I do not think His plan is so perfect.
Too many instances where people are suffering because of health, money issues, etc.
Man's inhumanity to man, stuff like that are things that would make it hard to "enjoy the life we've been given".


In the meantime we, if we respond correctly in life, get to learn how to live well as responsible free agents, with free will, and without constantly messing up; preparing us for an eternity of peaceful life in God's New Kingdom. (Rev. 21 & 22)
In this aspect I refer to this life as being "boot camp" for eternity for each of us.

Yep, if only we wouldn't mess up. A constant battle trying to avoid the pitfalls of life. <sigh>
"Be ye perfect" seems to be an impossible feat.



Having related this, there is a wrinkle.
No matter how well we live according to God's plan for us, wretched hardship and disaster can at any time occur in our lives, and those we love; and it can be brought by other humans.
Responding well, correctly in these times is how we learn the hard lessons of controlling ourselves as free moral agents.
Learning to live keeping the "Big Picture" in mind is a process and takes time. Early in life I learned to keep in mind this Big Picture in this way- using the idea that we will be alive somewhere 10,000 years from now, how important is what's happening in the moment going to be at that time?
Combining this with trying to maintain a concern for others around us, I've found that it can often put "things" into a correct perspective for me.

Yes, the "Big Picture".
Thanks for your input Muser.

[.429&H110]

So, God put us on this earth......why?

God put us on this earth to serve Him.
One way or another we all do serve Him.
One way or another we all have a relationship with God.
Peter denied Him, so you can.
Thomas doubted, so you can.
There were no Christians at the Last Supper.
They were redeemed, so you can be too.
As Paul said we are without excuse.

This is not going to be settled on the internet.
Here we set on our deer stands yelling across the field scaring away the deer.

On a Wednesday night around the corner from you is a place where you can read the Word of God for yourself in fellowship and hear the truth studied. It's an education. Who is going to teach the kids if we don't? Sunday you can sing praise and hear a sermon teaching from scripture what God wants you to do.

March 31st only the prayers of my prayer group saved me from two blood clots plugging up my lungs the big one was 20 mm, felt like I had been kicked by a horse again. Doctors practiced on me, picked them out. I should have died my heart should have exploded was a bad 24 hours. (J&J shot on the 20th? just co-incidence...) Saved for Easter, I am back to my mile a day with my wife, thank you Lord.

My point is I was spared for the 4th time for the age old question.
I know I am here to evangelize and apologize.
To serve God with all my soul, all my strength, all my mind.
Alas, this may be beyond the scope of this forum.
I believe the load data you are looking for is in the book of John.

I would ask you to stop berating religion made by man
because all fall short, come join us in revival, sola scriptura,
and renew your relationship with your Redeemer.
Simple as that. Leave your demons and idols at the door.
Repent
Redeem
Renew
5th Great Revival in this decade!
or we can have 70 years of bondage: 2100AD- next chance.
nunc demittis

[Muser]

Rizzo, thanks for your welcome.
Yes, I agree about gaining wisdom. I wish that our children's generation could see it and ask our advice more about things in their lives.

Yes, I did mean personal interaction with God, as well as our relationships with others.
Your right of course that God's method of interacting with mankind has changed since the OT days. That happened at the time of the Holy Spirit of God being sent to aid us. The Holy Spirit's ministry goes beyond ministering to us to draw us to repentance and salvation.
I remember that powerful inner working of the Holy Spirit within my mind/heart/soul as He reached into me in such a way that I didn't want to refuse Him at the time of my salvation. It changed me forever.

But that is just the first work in a person's life by Him.
The Holy Spirit's ministry is two-fold. Multiple New Testament verses describe His assisting us. Here's one, John 14:26- “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
This ministry didn't end with the death of the last Disciple, but has continued on to this day as the Holy Spirit ministers to the currently living Body of Christ.

I try to remember to begin with praying and inviting Him to join me, and fill me, guide and teach me as I study.
I've found that when I am taking the time and effort to seriously and honestly spend some time with God praying and/or reading and studying His Word; that God (the Holy Spirit) is there with me bringing deeper understanding to my mind and assisting me in understanding different applications of what I'm reading in both my, and others lives.

"Prayer is a one-way street." In the sense you mean, yes at times it could seem like it, but... consider that had you begun your prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to fill you and join you; helping you to pray- would it have still been a one-way street, or at least felt that way?

I submit to you that prayer is never actually just a one-way street, that the Holy Spirit is truly with all believer's as they pray.
But that believer (true Christian, not in name only) can indeed totally miss the blessing of the Holy Spirit's having been involved with them if they aren't seeking, expecting His presence during that time.

"I know this sounds terrible but I do not think His plan is so perfect. Too many instances where people are suffering because of health, money issues, etc.
Man's inhumanity to man, stuff like that are things that would make it hard to "enjoy the life we've been given".

Rizzo, of course your above observation is so true, on the surface of it. The burden for me of thinking about the evil of people toward their fellow humans weighs down my soul terribly. This doesn't even take into account the wrong and evil perpetrated on animals.
You must however keep in mind that God's plan has had an attempt at sabotaging it. (This is not to excuse the fault of sin being brought into existence by humankind.)
God's plan hasn't ended yet though.
In fact it will continue beyond the end of Revelation chapter 22. That's only just how far He has chosen to reveal His plans to us for now.

And does the horrific pain and suffering in the Earth happen with no effect on God's heart?
Think about it, God is the source of all love. Evil of every sort and atrociousness hurts God's heart more than it can ever hurt ours.
We can't begin to fathom the depths of pain He endures!
If there had been a way to avoid all of this, you know deep down that He would have.
You only have existing automatons if they have no free will and the ability to exercise it.
There will be a recourse, with full accountability.
Consider, can a God of Love not also be a God of Justice? He is a just God. The First Judgment is all about God's justice for every wrong and evil done to man and beast. This includes what we do to ourselves and how we hurt ourselves.

So by His perfect plan I meant that God gets what He wanted, no sabotage will prevent it.
A race of "agents of free will" was created, and many will be perfected with the ability to live eternally unfettered in the exercise of their free will.
As I said, to the honor and glory of our All-Loving God.

[Muser]

Rizzo, I read that you are "on a spiritual journey" in a sense that seems parallel to those of us here who are Christians.
At my age I've lived as a close friend with a fellow workmate as a friend who was an atheist when we met forty-some years ago.
Over the years he would come to me with question after question, sometimes irate and angry. We weren't friends yet and he was trying to punch holes in my beliefs, thinking I was brain-washed. He had read books of eastern religions, yogis, and masters searching for truth.

Today he is a Christian, not because of me but because he was willing to accept Truth as it was shown to him. Letting go of small "truths" was key to his seeing what is actual reality.

I'll be happy to share what I know about reincarnation with you, but realize that if your heart isn't truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you.

We all come to the search from somewhere. Do you know yet that the Holy Bible is the most accurate book of history known to have been written?
So purely from a secular position you are doing well to read it. But to get out of it what it contains in-depth you must be a Christian with the Holy Spirit assisting you. (as I stated above)

[Muser]

Rizzo, to get to the Truth that you are saying you are after; you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity, and whichever one you profess that includes reincarnation.
All religions contain some "truths and correct principles". But those universal to them that men can think of isn't what you are needing to be seeking.
Reincarnation has a basic flaw that makes it incomparable to the Truth of the Bible. I'll get into that for you if you'd like.
In fact you'll find that the Bible directly stands in opposition to the religions that are reincarnation-based.
Yes, I know of what you've previously briefly brought up about children and memories.

Hebrews 9:27- "Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.…"
For now you need to set this aside so you can in an honest way approach your search.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
Are you such a man?

[GhostHawk]

My opinion, the earth is a sorting bin. People are free to choose their path. Making it quite easy to seperate the sheep from the goats. The Wheat from the Chaff.

We are given a life, what we do with it is up to us. Our choices are going to define who we will be in the end.

[Char-Gar]

We are but sojourners on this earth, which is just a way station on the way to eternity. This way station is where we exercise our power to choose and hopefully make choices that fit us for eternity. Eternity is for people who chose God and learn to make Godly choices and engage in Godly activities. It is both a learning time and a testing time.

While we are one this sojourn, Jesus is Savior (one who made atonement for our sins), Teacher and example. The great message of the New Testament is not Jesus is like God, but God is like Jesus.

This is not a great mystery. It is clear to one who reads the entire Bible with an eye to the entire sweep of thought. It is very consistent. Folks tend to get bogged down in "proof texting", trying to pit one verse against another. Looking for a verse or verses that undergird their own religious dogma. Various church dogma are a bigger enemy of the Kingdom that Satan. Satan loves to pit dogma against dogma, as that take peoples eye on the ball. Get the churches bogged down in fights over dogma and the Gospel become neutered. They would rather fight with other Christians over jots and tittles than tell the world about Jesus.

[Rizzo]

Muser,
I appreciate all that you have addressed to me.
We both believe in God but have some differences in our Spiritual beliefs.

I am quite comfortable with what I believe, which includes the teachings of Jesus and also the belief of reincarnation.
You have apparently read some of my other posts on other issues so you have some idea where I am coming from.


...consider that had you begun your prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to fill you and join you; helping you to pray- would it have still been a one-way street, or at least felt that way?

Well, in my experience, yes.


"I submit to you that prayer is never actually just a one-way street, that the Holy Spirit is truly with all believer's as they pray.
But that believer (true Christian, not in name only) can indeed totally miss the blessing of the Holy Spirit's having been involved with them if they aren't seeking, expecting His presence during that time."

I have felt what I believe to be the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was overwhelming in a good way.
However, that does not equate to prayers being answered.
I guess you could say that there is some interaction there because of the Presence, but it isn't necesssarily an answer to a prayer, hence the "one way street" issue still remains.



"I'll be happy to share what I know about reincarnation with you, but realize that if your heart isn't truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you."

Like some others have stated before, here we are again with advice to me to give up what I believe and believe what you believe. Then I will find Truth.
<sigh>
Thank you for your concern, but as stated before, I am quite comfortable with what I believe.


"....you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity"

I do not understand this.
"...two entire beliefs systems of Christianity"
Please explain.


"Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
Are you such a man?"

So,....I've been "knockin' on heaven's door" trying to get answers to my prayers but no one answered the door.
Yes I am such a man.......still waiting.

[Char-Gar]

Rizzo....I don't know what you believe about God and or Jesus and really am not asking you to tell me. We all get to live and die with our beliefs which is our God given choice. I do not believe in reincarnation, but it is not a heaven vs. hell issue, so it doesn't bother me if you do.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo....I don't know what you believe about God and or Jesus and really am not asking you to tell me.
Why mention that if you are not asking?
So to answer your non-question.....

God is the Creator of all things.
Side note:
I am baffled by Atheist's thinking.
How can one look around at this beautiful earth with all of it's complexities and not see Intelligent design? (rhetorical)

What is His plan, why are we here, why can't we have one on one communication with Him, since He is our Father?
I do not know those answers.
Yet, I can feel His love, despite all of these things.

We have an Owner's Manual of sorts with religious texts (Bible for instance) that gives advice and direction for good living. Yet, in those texts we (I) find confusion and things that do not seem to be true.

Regarding Jesus,...He is the Son of God. He is considered God despite His actions in the Bible where He refers to God as His father, and acts separate from being God in some of His dialog. Yet, Father, Son, Holy Spirit are considered as the one God.


...... I do not believe in reincarnation, but it is not a heaven vs. hell issue, so it doesn't bother me if you do.

Actually it is, sort of.
Reincarnation pretty much does away with eternal damnation in hell.
Like I've said before:
No one goes to Hell for eternity.

I know this bothers folks when I say this because it goes against their beliefs.
But it happens to be what I believe, so it doesn't bother me if you do not.

[Muser]

Rizzo,

I'm always interested in non-emotional mature, rational discussion of any topic. My goal in this is not to "win", but simply to offer somethings you may want to give time considering, and at the same time to hear your thoughts.


I have felt what I believe to be the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was overwhelming in a good way.
- This concerns me because my entire life experience has been that God is not one to overwhelm a person. Even at a time as a teenager when God in answer to my heartbroken prayer gave me a gift of healing for my younger brother, it was a calm, inwardly quiet experience in my soul as I received it from the Holy Spirit.


Like some others have stated before, here we are again with advice to me to give up what I believe and believe what you believe. Then I will find Truth.
- Rizzo, you need to slow up your reading and be certain you are accurate. This is not what I wrote. Go back and you will see, if you want. This is what I wrote- ["truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you." ] I'm referring to your(anyone's) heart's attitude here, desiring to know what is real Truth. Not that we must already have given up our belief before we can understand something new, never that.
The Chinese have a saying about the need to be willing to empty one's cup if one desires to learn anew.


"....you will need to look at and compare the two entire belief systems of Christianity"
I do not understand this.
"...two entire beliefs systems of Christianity"
Please explain.
- Sure, Understand that sentence as one whole thought. (...of Christianity and whatever "overall belief system" you have that includes reincarnation.) My comma may have thrown you.

BTW Rizzo, I don't think I've read your posts other than in this thread.
Do you consider yourself a Christian, or someone who believes in a "Supreme God" ?
- Your words please.

I don't want to further de-rail this thread, maybe I'll start a new one- Can Reincarnation Exist Within Christian Theology?. We, and others can pick this up there.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo,

I'm always interested in non-emotional mature, rational discussion of any topic. My goal in this is not to "win", but simply to offer somethings you may want to give time considering, and at the same time to hear your thoughts.
Sounds good to me.
I enjoy reading other's views on things.
They can give food for thought and discussion.


- This concerns me because my entire life experience has been that God is not one to overwhelm a person. Even at a time as a teenager when God in answer to my heartbroken prayer gave me a gift of healing for my younger brother, it was a calm, inwardly quiet experience in my soul as I received it from the Holy Spirit.
You are replying to my statement about being overwhelmed here. Rather than rewriting it I will quote what I wrote in Post #23:
"I was overwhelmed. I now had a better focus on God and a belief that made sense to me. I was so changed that I felt it in every atom of my body. It is a sensation that I"ll never forget and really can't describe.
I wanted to stop everyone I saw and shake them and say "You've got to hear this!!".
I did not do that though. People would probably think I was crazy.

I suspect that feeling I had was similar to what other people have described when they were "Saved" and had their coming to Jesus moment.
It's an amazing feeling."



- Rizzo, you need to slow up your reading and be certain you are accurate. This is not what I wrote. Go back and you will see, if you want. This is what I wrote- ["truly desiring to know Truth regardless of the cost (meaning being willing to give up what you understand now) you can easily find reasons to dismiss anything anyone tells you." ] I'm referring to your(anyone's) heart's attitude here, desiring to know what is real Truth. Not that we must already have given up our belief before we can understand something new, never that.
The Chinese have a saying about the need to be willing to empty one's cup if one desires to learn anew.


Fair enough Muser.
I guess I am a little "touchy" on members here advising me to give up my beliefs (that they do not agree with) and go with what they believe. It has happened here before.

Real Truth?,..............who's Truth?
Yours, mine, the Jews, The Hindus, the Muslims, the Christians...................?
Each believes in a Creator and below that all sorts of dialog on how to interact with Him, live right, etc.

Depending on which "culture" you are raised in will probably determine what your Spiritual beliefs are.
Those with "Other" belief systems (other than Christian) feel that they have some sort of relationship with their Creator.
No?
Then to approach them with a different belief system and state that it is the real Truth because it comes from....say the Bible,.....well, you get the idea.


Do you consider yourself a Christian, or someone who believes in a "Supreme God" ?
- Your words please.

I have already stated that I believe in God.
I consider myself a "Hybrid Christian".
One who tries to live according to the teachings of Jesus and who also believes in reincarnation.


I don't want to further de-rail this thread, maybe I'll start a new one- Can Reincarnation Exist Within Christian Theology?. We, and others can pick this up there.

Sounds like a good topic for discussion.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=Rizzo;5175659]Why mention that if you are not asking?
So to answer your non-question....."

I mentioned it because I really don't care what you believe. I meant what I said in a very literal sense. I am not into indirect speech of any kind. I grew very tired of random theological discussions with random people about 1975. A very wise man, once told me, "Always remember, theology is not God, it is just people talking about God.".

[Bigslug]

Why would the perfect being make such an imperfect thing as mankind?

Why would a creature of infinite power, wisdom, and ability to deliver by miracle make puny, stupid men to work his will, not tell them what that will is, and generally let them make the exact same mistakes cyclically for generations?

Why would this being create us with the primal survival drives that can make us seem like monsters, then give us a code that tells us to set them aside?

Why have faith that the next world is so great when the first one is such a train wreck?

What kind of "plan" is it when we aren't plainly told and can't reach any consensus over what it is?

I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods, but if I'm wrong on that, I feel pretty certain they/he isn't the benevolent nice guy that many are so wishful for. Thus, as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I've never had much use for one."

[Rizzo]

Why would the perfect being make such an imperfect thing as mankind?

Why would a creature of infinite power, wisdom, and ability to deliver by miracle make puny, stupid men to work his will, not tell them what that will is, and generally let them make the exact same mistakes cyclically for generations?

Why would this being create us with the primal survival drives that can make us seem like monsters, then give us a code that tells us to set them aside?

Why have faith that the next world is so great when the first one is such a train wreck?

What kind of "plan" is it when we aren't plainly told and can't reach any consensus over what it is?
Good questions.
I ponder those same questions, along with "Why are we here?".
We seem to be left in the dark for answers regarding those questions.


I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods, but if I'm wrong on that, I feel pretty certain they/he isn't the benevolent nice guy that many are so wishful for. Thus, as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I've never had much use for one."

You say gods (plural).
I do believe in the only God (God The Creator), but those valid questions do not change my belief in Him.
It is more of trying to have an understanding of why He put us in this situation that is so confusing when we ponder those questions.
It bugs me that we are left in the dark about these matters.

You can look in the Bible for those answers and won't find them.
God loves you and we are to live a good life by following His commandments and to serve Him is what you'll find regarding those questions.
God knows what is best for you, so just have FAITH ( a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.)
Uh-huh, uh-huh...., <sigh> So here we are in this beautiful creation of His without a clue as to....why are we here, etc..

[Muser]

Bigslug, you asked "Why".
God wanted, for His own reasons to have in existence within His creation a race that not only had the ability of free will, but also the right to exercise it.
The angels already existed and had the ability of free will; but from what we know, apparently did not have the right to exercise it freely.

You seem to have missed the meaning of the first part of the book of Genesis.
God created mankind absolutely perfect in every way, sinless.
On our own we chose to accept the temptation to sin against God, and ourselves.
God in His love for His creation of humankind put into effect His perfect plan of redeeming (saving from sin) mankind, who is unable to save ourselves.

- Enter the law of Moses -

How about the Law that God gave the Israelite's to live by?
Not just the Ten Commandments but also the Books of Law: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
They contain a lot of solid health, and life guidance that is excellent. But its nigh on impossible to live one's life without ever breaking some of them. Its impossible to live life and never break one of the Ten Commandments, let alone ALL of the Law.
Its an impossible mandate.

And then in James 2:10 it says: "For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all."

Is the Hebrew God sadistic and evil?
May it never be!

So what's the point? Ultimately it will be for sinless people to live for all eternity here on a newly created earth with fellow Christians, God, and Jesus Christ, other peoples and kings, and who knows what all! (read in the last book of the Bible- Revelation, the last two chapters in it, chapters 21 and 22. It will be utterly amazing!!

Back to the purpose of the Law- First, it has its obvious values for guidance in life. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly the Law shows humankind that we need help to live righteously, sinless. Which is the only way to at some point be able to live and be around God who is perfectly, purely Holy.
The overall purpose God gave man the Law is to show us our absolute need for a savior.
*** Its a perfect example of how it is impossible for us to earn our way to Heaven in our own efforts. ***
- And therein shows the need for, and points to the coming promised Messiah.


Rizzo, this is ultimately the reason that reincarnation simply cannot coexist as a held belief within Christianity.

Its a thought out system for people to get beyond their sin. But its in actuality an impossibility to accomplish this on our own.
Which is why God had to step in, put into place His plan of salvation, which He had from before creating humanity.

Reincarnation was developed by people who had no idea of God's plan for redemption of humankind. It was the best that could be thought of, maybe. But simply just not good enough.
Its not possible for it to work.
If it could work, there would have been no need for God to take on human flesh and suffer the horrendous torture of crucifixion as a sinless, perfectly pure sacrifice to pay for our debt to Justice for our sins and unrighteousness.

God is a God of Justice. Its impossible for it to be otherwise. Because God is pure Holy Love, that love demands justice.
Hence the Judgment Day that absolutely will happen.

There simply is no "Yea but..."; it is God's plan for mankind as revealed in His Holy Word to us, we get to accept it for the beauty and love found reflected in it or we don't accept it and suffer the consequences of that choice.

But remember that God having created mankind with the ability to recognize the need for a Creator, had the absolute incumbent responsibility to reveal Himself to man.
Compare if you will, all other belief systems about God that exists. They will contain some truths.

See if there be any that matches or excels the revealed explanation of reality, the plan for mankind as we live our lives, and the wondrous future that is described in Revelation 21 and 22.

No other belief system encompasses as well as what we understand of reality through the Old and New Testament.

By way of example- No other belief system has power over evil that matches the Creator of all that exists - Jesus Christ (as the Word before he took on humanity at his birth) read John 1:1- 3~ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Shamans have to summon a more powerful demon spirit to control the one already troubling someone.
But then there now is that bigger problem that must be kept appeased. The situation is not ultimately made better, but worse.

[1hole]

So, God put us on this earth......why?

God put us on this earth to serve Him.
One way or another we all do serve Him.
One way or another we all have a relationship with God.
Peter denied Him, so you can.
Thomas doubted, so you can.

Thought provoking observations.

There IS a spirit power at work in the earthly affairs of individuals and kingdoms (countries). There are only two spiritual powers at work here and all men WILL decide to serve one or the other. Those who loudly proclaim they have not and will not make such a decision have indeed made a conscious decision to follow the wrong leader.

Jesus was perfect in every way; we aren't perfect in any way. Jesus paid the penalty for our failures and offers us a "free" ticket to heaven IF we want it but He won't jam it down resisting throats.

God has done his part; trust whom you will, we each choose who will be Lord of our lives, now and forever. Choose well, in our world the eternal ends of both choices are well known and certain. (John 3:17-18)

[1hole]

Reincarnation was developed by people who had no idea of God's plan for redemption of humankind.

There are a few recurring things about reincarnation that I find a bit amusing. One of the biggest chuckles is that those who profess to have memories of a past life were always bigtime players! I've heard of no one who was a simple hard working clod just trying to stay alive as best he could. Seems only big shots get reincarnated ... or it's all B.S.!

I do believe some demon possessed people have memories that come from a prior life but I don't for a moment think it's a human memory, as such. Instead, I believe reincarnation memories are demonic spirit recollections of previously indwelt humans; that's sad for the poor lost souls.

[Muser]

Well said 1hole.

That's what our situation boils down to, for a bottom line.
The different thoughts that a number of us are sharing all fit together.

GhostHawk -
My opinion, the earth is a sorting bin. People are free to choose their path. Making it quite easy to seperate the sheep from the goats. The Wheat from the Chaff.

We are given a life, what we do with it is up to us. Our choices are going to define who we will be in the end.

GhostHawk, I also use the example that this life is very much like boot camp training. In this life we are being trained and prepared for our life and service in our future - Revelation 21-22.

[.429&H110]

As a study in comparative religion, my family hosted several Hindu grad students, found them an apartment, taught them to shop and cook, and drive on the right.
We agreed they wouldn't be evangelical Baptists (yet)
and I would make a very poor Hindu.
They enjoyed Christmas in my church, candlelit,
and I was baffled in their Temple.
A Hindu wedding is amazing.

Hindu is a cycle and they want to escape it.
Christianity is linear: God started Creation, and He will surely end it.
(Scientism teaches Big Bang Big Crunch and denies God)

If by reincarnation you mean I will have a glorified body one day
with God's name on my headband, by the River, hasten the Day!
If you mean I have to come back as a dog until I get it right,
escape my karma, that's just not in the KJV.

The stumbling block is when the Holy Spirit changes you, you are changed.
Many today will not repent and let that happen.
And so we sign up for 70 years of bondage starting 2030.
God loves us, and yet hates sin.
The first sin that causes the others is covetousness:
we want what we can't have;
I would be happy if only I had...

Where's your joy?

[1hole]

People go to hell because they reject Jesus as Lord, not because they aren't good enough; none of us are that good.

I don't consider the coming resurrection of ALL human dead is any kind of reincarnation. Reincarnation is coming back in a new body - man or beast - that never existed before and is devoid of any memory of the previous life. In reincarnation there can be no learning of why we exist or what we did wrong previously!

Resurrection is of our own body and with very significant memories of our past life. Without our memories we would be just another animated pile of dirt and dust. We wouldn't know our loved ones or even who that nice "Jesus guy" we keep seeing around heaven is; THAT level of ignorance in heaven just ain't going to happen!

Christians rightly make a big issue of a perfect physical resurrection and a perfect restoration for saved bodies, followed by an eternal existence on a physical new earth/heaven where we will live with the blessings of God forever. We wrongly tend to overlook that dead non-believers will also be eternally resurrected but they will live a putrified eternal existence in the still unpopulated lake of fire hell that will be totally devoid of the good things of God.

That does NOT mean everyone in hell will be punished the same; God is just and that would not be just! And such ungodly mindless punishment of everyone would NOT be in accordance with punishments according to the harmful works lost people do in this life. But ... the best seats in hell will still be in hell so no lost person can rightly hope to get a cool seat with ice water close by because he thinks he's really not so bad.

[Bigslug]

Rizzo,

I don't think anything ever rang more true to me than this:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus (dead over 200 years B.C.)

You asked why I used the plural "gods". Two reasons:

1. The Greek/Roman model of multiple gods at odds with each other using mankind as their pawns and playthings goes a long way to explain the world before us.

2. Sometimes I just look around and say "yeah. . .this is one of those messes that was designed by committee"

As I try to wrap my brain around the Christian constructs, I gather it goes something like this:

* All-powerful, perfect being creates an imperfect race (which implies this being ISN'T all-powerful OR perfect).

*Imperfect race is given the ability to make its own decisions and come to its own conclusions (Which will, by definition, be imperfect ones).

*All powerful, perfect being sends any members of the imperfect race to be used as Satan's candle wicks if the conclusions reached aren't the right ones (Hmmmm. . . so the all-powerful, perfect being needed to make an industrial-sized paper shredder for disposing of all the mistakes he made).

*All-powerful perfect being that supposedly wants members of the imperfect race to be happy allows them to keep reproducing a never-ending supply of new souls that - lacking direct guidance - will continue making the same wrong choices. This leads to ever more of the imperfect ending up as Satan's candle wicks.

*All-powerful, perfect being then says "It's all good! All you have to do is acknowledge how right and awesome I am (after I dropped you into this goat rodeo), and you'll get to ride around on sun-bathed clouds after your handful of decades of suffering without knowing why".

So, my inclination is then to put about as much trust in this being as I would the engineer that gave us the Ford Pinto, or maybe even the Yugo.

Think of the attributes of a good business or military leader. They encourage talent and put it where it can best be used; they get the various talents to work together; they lay out an overall objective to strive toward; they ideally can do a lot of the lesser jobs themselves and will step in to do them when the situation requires; and, most of all, they are SEEN doing these things, thus inspiring confidence in the (clearly stated) mission.

In contrast, the classic monotheistic gods seem to be the negligent boss out on permanent vacation leaving the various less-capable department heads to quarrel with each other and allow the company to decline into obsolescence and bankruptcy.

None of which provides any clear answer to your question of "Why are we here?", but it does narrow the focus to fewer relevant talking points:

* The boss is clearly out to lunch and we're going to have to fend for ourselves. In the fending for ourselves, do we. . .

*. . .advance ourselves individually, or. . .

*. . .advance ourselves collectively?

Ghengis Khan got pretty far with Option A - to the point that something like 10% of all modern people of Asian descent are carrying his DNA. If God put us here for Darwin to do the sorting, then old Ghengis surely made God happy. Not so good if the plan is deeper than just spreading your seed around as proof that you're God's ultimate construct.

Option B gives you teamwork, agriculture, and advancing civilizations. This seems like a good idea until you realize that your whole society has grown to keep it's slow, dumb, and weak members from being eaten by leopards and crocodiles, the result being that the slow, dumb, and weak live long enough to start breeding, and your society becomes slower, dumber, and weaker as a result - - made worse by the fact that your more Ghengis-like forebears took out all the leopards and crocs.

So, we aren't likely to get any consensus even there (Hell, I can't agree with myself). Thus, I follow Epicurus until the boss actually decides to show up for work and demonstrate some competence.

[Rizzo]

Bigslug,
You make some good thoughtful points.
Your interpretation of the Christian constructs are logical and thought provoking.


So, my inclination is then to put about as much trust in this being as I would the engineer that gave us the Ford Pinto, or maybe even the Yugo.


Thus, I follow Epicurus until the boss actually decides to show up for work and demonstrate some competence.
...and from a different post:

I have grave doubts over the very existence of gods

You seem to be frustrated and on the fence about your belief in a God.
With what you have written, I can understand that.

However, for whatever reason why God is the way He is...all of this creation around us came from somewhere, so here we are in the middle of this "goat rodeo" (LOL! I got a belly laugh from that) trying to understand it all.

I have pondered questions like yours myself to a point that I was always thinking about it and trying to figure it out with my logic. I have concluded that I can't figure out the "whys" and now just try to live a good life via the "Golden Rule".

[Blackwater]

Big Slug, you don't believe because you don't WANT to. It's really just that simple. Whatever motivates you to choose so blithely is beyond me, and not for me to say.

But to the original question, "Why are we here?", my take on it is that we may not be capable of knowing, and we have no real need to know this. Look at the Bible. Would we really want it to be expanded several times over? We struggle enough with it as it is already! Maybe God just felt what to him may feel like lonliness, and wanted whole throngs of people to share His love with Him. I don't know, and don't need to. All I know is that we ARE here, and we have a crucial decision to make regarding God. Will we accept and try to follow Him, or will we reject and poke fun at Him and His devotees? Each of us must make that decision separately and with finality. All He really wants is our acceptance and to see us try, as best we know how, to follow His teachings, directions and advice.

Is there one denier who can point to another entity who has never lied to them or led them astray? God has never, and WILL never lie to us nor lead us astray. Everything outside of God will. It's clear, to all who really care, that God is God for a reason, and it's to provide us a benchmark to strive for. We are so richly blessed to have a God who loves us, and does all He can to steer us to the righteous path. Praise God from whom all our blessings flow!

[Bigslug]

No B.W., I don't believe in your system because it has never passed my smell test, as I've made abundantly clear in the past, and you fail to accept. I suspect Rizzo may be on nearly the same wavelength - else why would he launch the thread?

I do wonder why you say I "blithely" choose this view of the hard reality which risks telling your presumed Master of the Universe to pound sand, while you're the one latched on to what be could easily be lumped in with Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy by one who hadn't been long-steeped in the dogma tub.

Now, you're responding to the O.P.'s question of "Why?" with "You don't need to know". Opiate of the Masses, indeed. If we're going to get heaved about and shelled on this Higgins Boat known as Life, you shouldn't be so shocked to find that some of us want to know the purpose of the guy that ordered us aboard. "Moves in mysterious ways" may stop all your lines of questioning, but for many, it really doesn't cut it.

Apologies Rizzo - Blackwater and I arrive at this point frequently. His engine doesn't run on reason and my injectors clog when you try to run mine on faith, so our world views tend to collide. An unfortunate case of "it is what it is"

[Rizzo]

No B.W., I don't believe in your system because it has never passed my smell test, as I've made abundantly clear in the past, and you fail to accept. I suspect Rizzo may be on nearly the same wavelength - else why would he launch the thread?
I apply critical thinking to matters like "religion"......let's call it "Spirituality" beliefs instead.
By your statements it seems that you do also and have come to your conclusions.
You are sincere in your beliefs and so are others here.
Although this can promote disagreement, it also promotes civil discussion,....an exchange of views that sometimes make one (including myself) go "Hmmm.....I think I'll check that out".
I launched this thread with that in mind.


Apologies Rizzo - Blackwater and I arrive at this point frequently. His engine doesn't run on reason and my injectors clog when you try to run mine on faith, so our world views tend to collide. An unfortunate case of "it is what it is"
Thank you Bigslug, but none needed.
I certainly have had interactions with others because of my beliefs within a thread topic but overall they stem from the original topic and why we believe what we do.
It's all good.
I have to say that you add a bit of humorous overtones to some of your statements that emphasize your beliefs.
Thanks for your input.

[.429&H110]

I flinch when I see the nature of God slandered.
We are breaking the covenant God made with America.
God will scatter us, just as He scattered the children of Israel.
Most died, the rest were enslaved.
Do you think that can't happen here?
Do you think a tool that makes holes in things will help?

I believe God made man perfect, in God's own image.
"Fearfully and wonderfully made..." sings the Psalm.
I believe I was born a babe to Adam's fallen race.
I certainly took up a life of sin that should have killed me.

I repented, was redeemed, I am certainly a different person.
May I say "born again"? Re-born, if you like...
I know now why I am here...but...
I would like to know what God saved me for
what He would have me do.

Beware saying "Why does God..."
when you mean "If I were God I wouldn't do that".
There is a God.
You aren't Him.

Romans 8 concludes:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Amen

[Blackwater]

Big Slug, I came back here to see how you'd respond, and it's just as I suspected. Just regurgitating the same old, tired mantra you live by. So be it, but one day, you will rue it all. And when you meet the Lord face to face, it will be too late to acknowledge Him or backtrack. I just pray that something will open your eyes and heart before it's too late for you.

[Bigslug]

Big Slug, I came back here to see how you'd respond, and it's just as I suspected. Just regurgitating the same old, tired mantra you live by. So be it, but one day, you will rue it all. And when you meet the Lord face to face, it will be too late to acknowledge Him or backtrack. I just pray that something will open your eyes and heart before it's too late for you.

Pot, meet Kettle. I'm pretty sure your mantra is older and more fatigued than mine, by a few thousand years. Rizzo seems to have seen some holes worn in it, which is, after all, why we're here chatting.

Look, I'm going to continue share my views, and you're going to find the fact that I consider yours much more unlikely to be real than many others disturbing. You can constructively disagree, but if all you're going to do is wring your hands over my doomed soul (A.) you're wasting your breath on me, and (B.) I doubt very much that anybody else wants to hear it. If it ultimately turns out that I'm wrong, I'll stand by my position, crack a few brews, and compare notes with Satan about asking pointed questions of unfathomable bosses.

[Bigslug]

I flinch when I see the nature of God slandered.

This is a good post (#90) that gets to the heart of the questioning. The nature of God and his motives is indeed one of the big questions that doubters of any religious system are going to ask.

This being a gun forum, let me phrase this from a common form of reference. If God wants us to be one thing - say, an Anschutz Olympic match rifle - why does he build us as something else - a Ruger 10/22? You can (and guys do) swap out every single part on a Ruger 10/22 to one that was not made by Ruger, including the receiver, in a quest to improve its accuracy, yet you will not see a single Ruger 10/22 taking home medals in International Smallbore because at their core, International Smallbore is not what 10/22's are intended for - - so much so that nobody even brings one.

So if God is the ultimate engineer, with the ultimate factory with an unlimited production budget, why does he continue to churn out billions of 10/22's if International Smallbore is the game he wants to play?

If all he can make is 10/22's and he's trying to sort out how to make the best 10/22 possible so he can take a destined-to-fail stab at the International Smallbore game, that may be an admirable goal, but he is probably not worthy of that title of "Ultimate Engineer", which brings us back to the "Why call him God?" quote from Epicurus I put up a few posts back.

Another big question on the nature of God is that if he supposedly wants us to follow a certain line so we can all be "saved" and if he weeps when we step off it, then why is he apparently MUCH more comfortable with allowing us to kill each other arguing over what that line is than he is with the idea of lighting up the path in a way that everyone can say "Oh yeah. There it is"?

All of that is to throw out for consideration the possibility that God may not be what you think he is. It would certainly be within the pattern of the ancient Greek gods to send us to the Olympics demanding a gold medal in Smallbore (aka "salvation"). . . while giving us only a 10/22 to win it with. What we would then have is a sport that requires the skill of the real Olympics, gets played with the abilities of the Special Olympics, and has the high stakes of The Hunger Games.

The PARTICIPANTS in NASCAR have the great sense of urgency to improve their cars and driving ability to win cash, fame, and glory. The VIEWERS of NASCAR that actually fund the sport are mostly just there to watch them crash. Humans crash a lot, keep racing, and don't seem to get much better at it. Since the sport continues, one has to wonder what really puts the smile on the audience's face.

[.429&H110]

OK - firearm forum analogy.
Uncle Sam pulled my number in 1971 and forgot to draft me.
The recruiter said I would be fine stuffing my size 15 feet into their boots.
No, thank you.
When I was a twenty-something, I was a gun that would not shoot straight.
I had a little Colt that I could not hit a barn with, standing in the barn.
If you had met me in the dark, you would have cheerfully shot me.
The R-rated version of me seeing the Light will not be on the interweb.
Now-a-days I am on the 100yd gong straight with my .44.
No more addiction, no idols, a new life. Joy.
At the end of a week I was an evangelical baptized in the river Pentecostal, saved by Grace and only Grace, wondering what had happened. The Light is a very bright Light. One day we all will see it.
You do not at all need a religion. "...all your mind...", He said. Jesus came to free us, not enslave us.
Re-lig = re-chain. I admire Pentecostals, but now I am a washed in the Blood independent Baptist. Sola Scriptura. I don't thump my Bible, I turn the pages very carefully.
What you have, we have, we all have is a relationship with God. The relationship is yours to deny or accept, a choice. Some religion is not worth supporting. No-one can tell you what your relationship to God is.
I will witness how my life was saved.
Make no mistake, He is real.
Prayers are answered.
Faith is a fact of life.
I am sorrowed to watch America come apart one soul at a time.
"Freedom" once meant to be free to serve God as you choose.
No King, no Pope, no far away Council of Churches. Free.
Read "The Coming Fury" by Catton, we are at 1860 all over again.
Only revival will save America.
A million people are praying that prayer,
so make a note on your calendar for 2030.