Father & Son Arrested For Illegal Hunting In Northern Michigan

[DougGuy]

PRESQUE ISLE COUNTY, Mich. (WPBN/WGTU) --

A father and son from Rogers City are being charged for poaching elk and other animals.

The arrest of Val Vogelheim, 56 and Josh Vogelheim, 26, follows an ongoing investigation according to conservation officers with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

The father and son turned themselves in to the Presque Isle County Prosecutor's Office, where they were arrested and arraigned on several charges.

According to investigators the poaching took place at multiple hunting camps across northern Michigan.

Val Vogelheim is charged with nine counts including:

Aiding and abetting
taking elk without a license
Possession of illegally taken game
Taking deer without a license
Loaning a deer license to another
Unlawful methods of taking turkey
Possession of protected raptors

Josh Vogelheim is charged with two counts:

Taking turkey without a license
Taking deer without a license

Conservation officers received an anonymous tip in September, 2019 regarding illegal activities at a camp located in southern Presque Isle County.

After a lengthy investigation, Conservation Officer Sidney Collins obtained a search warrant.

According to the DNR, during the investigation officers located several Michigan elk, white-tailed deer and wild turkey that were suspected to be illegally taken.

In addition, a snowy owl, a sharp-shinned hawk, a barred owl and other frozen game were found.

Officers also reported finding evidence pointing to the unlawful feeding of wildlife and a second camp that involved similar illegal activities.

In October, officers searched the second camp, also located in southern Presque Isle County, where they said they found additional evidence, suspects and criminal activity linking back several years.

“A lot of people have been directly involved with these camps,” Collins said.

DNA evidence confirmed that all of the game was taken in Michigan, according to the DNR.

Collins and Conservation Officer Paul Fox have conducted numerous investigations with other suspects located throughout the state and anticipate additional arrests.

"It takes time, often years, to investigate illegal activity that takes place at hunting camps,” said Chief Gary Hagler, DNR Law Enforcement Division. “We’re pleased to see how quickly Officer Collins was able to put together the evidence and coordinate a thorough, investigative effort at multiple locations throughout the state.”

https://upnorthlive.com/news/local/father-and-son-arrested-for-illegally-hunting-in-northern-michigan?fbclid=IwAR2EQvNF_aEYAAeFHSvoo9atwHlvrxR6 n7W307POGiRcYENJlmqwWJQdgkE

[Plate plinker]

Dirt bags.

[osteodoc08]

Hope the game laws are tough up there.

[Plate plinker]

Hope the game laws are tough up there.

They are. Those guys are in for a rough ride. In the state of Michigan they can take any and all equipment including vehicles which were used in the crime. Plus fines and so on.

[Petrol & Powder]

Looks like Michigan DNR put a lot of effort and resources into that investigation. My guess is that was a long term problem and the state finally had enough from those idiots and made them a project.

[Plate plinker]

MI has many problems with poachers and trespassing. The MDNR has wide ranging powers and it is serious business for a state that prides itself in the outdoor activities.

[oldred]

They are. Those guys are in for a rough ride. In the state of Michigan they can take any and all equipment including vehicles which were used in the crime. Plus fines and so on.

Are they not looking at any jail time?

About 10 years should be enough -for each offense!

[country gent]

I believe in Michigan they can confiscate and sell any thing used in taking processing or storing game taken illegally. SO firearms, cars trucks, houses land any and everything.

[bedbugbilly]

My father-in-law was a DNR Forester - worked out of the Baraga office for years. My wife's God-parents were the L.E. Conservation Officer and his wife who worked out of the same office - a fine gentleman who I enjoyed visiting with whenever I saw him. For a number of years, my wife and I wold go up and I would go out deer hunting with my F in L. Those days were nearly 50 years ago now. Whenever we were up at her parent's, I would often go to work with my F in L in the woods where he checked on the loggers cutting on state land, kept in touch with the local sawmills, etc. - and during those years -I met so many fine people in the logging industry. People don't realize the hard life of the loggers until you see it and my F in L always had their best interests at heart. I remember that in those days, it was not uncommon for a "native" (resident) to take a deer out of season once in a while and a blind eye was often turned as the DNR knew it was the difference of them being able to feed their families or going hungry when times when times were tough. But - the outright "poaching for profit" was pursued with diligence. One time, there was a large scale poaching ring operating in the western half of the UP - taking primarily deer but not limited to that - and the processed meat was being hauled to Wisconsin where it was sold; They worked on it for a very long time and finally were able to round most of them up and put and end to it. Even during deer season though, poaching and taking more than the limit was an issue and I can remember running across the L.E. Officer out in the middle of nowhere and my F in L and I being asked to go with him as "back up" as he busted one or two individuals for exceeding their limit. My F in L was deputized already due to his position, even though it was in the Forestry department and my wife's God-father would just look at me and say . . . "consider yourself deputized".

Through the years, I have heard many smart off about the "fish cops" but I have a lot of respect for the men and women who work the L.E. Division of the DNR. Their job is a tough one. Oftentimes they are pretty much alone with very little available "back up" that can get there in a hurry. Like many LEOs, they have no idea of what the situation is that they may be walking in to. They have coe a long way in their investigative capabilities with the use of DNA, etc..

Kudos to them for busting this father/son poaching team and I hope that they throw the book at them. They deserve to loose their guns and equipment used during the commission of their crimes and let it be a message to others who wish to do the same.

In the end, it's no different than what is going on in the streets of some of the cities with the burning, looting and destruction of property. If a Federal building is damaged or destroyed, it is the destruction of property belonging to the citizens and taxpayers of our country. These two clowns who poached are no different - they are destroying animals that, in reality, belong to the us who are citizens and taxpayers in the state of Michigan. There are two kinds of people in this life . . . 'givers" and "takers". These two idiots are true "takers"d and I hope they throw the book at therm.

[45workhorse]

Throw the book at them, after they are under the corner of the jail, before the jack is pulled out.
Just my opinion, my opinion and two bucks might get you a cup of coffee, someplace.

[Geezer in NH]

Ya throw the book at them. Not like they protested, pillaged, looted and burned business eh? Get to real time. There are much more important things IMHO

[Winger Ed.]

Games violation penalties need to be harsh.

Compared to what's going on, catching a poacher or game thief is sort of rare.
With so few Game Wardens, the crimes look easy to commit and get away with.
Game violations need to be discouraged as much and harshly as possible.

[Petrol & Powder]

Most game law violations are NOT serious crimes.

The fact that Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources expended so much effort on the case highlighted in this thread makes me think one of the following situations prompted the investigation:
1. The defendants in this case were well known to law enforcement and they finally just had enough. Sort of like that annoying fly that's buzzing around your head and you stop what you are doing and get the fly swatter.
2. Law enforcement received a large number of complaints about those individuals and dedicated some resources to fix the problem.
3. The game violations are part of a larger investigation, portions of which have not yet been revealed to the public.
4. The game warden in this case was simply extremely zealous.

As for the fate of the defendants, no one is going to prison for hunting without a license or taking game out of season. Most of the charges listed are likely to result in fines, the possible forfeiture of vehicles and weapons, the loss of license privileges and perhaps some form of probation.
The possession of raptors may be a serious offense but I don't know the circumstances.

A nearly year long investigation culminating in the execution of a search warrant sounds like the defendants had been a thorn in the side of law enforcement and the police just made a project out of them.

[porthos]

golly; i hope that none of the local honest hunters don't try to inflict some sort of revenge.

[osteodoc08]

In GA it’s usually fines, loss of game privileges and confiscation of property. Sometimes jail time but typically short.

Keep us updated with the outcome.

[Plate plinker]

Most game law violations are NOT serious crimes.

The fact that Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources expended so much effort on the case highlighted in this thread makes me think one of the following situations prompted the investigation:
1. The defendants in this case were well known to law enforcement and they finally just had enough. Sort of like that annoying fly that's buzzing around your head and you stop what you are doing and get the fly swatter.
2. Law enforcement received a large number of complaints about those individuals and dedicated some resources to fix the problem.
3. The game violations are part of a larger investigation, portions of which have not yet been revealed to the public.
4. The game warden in this case was simply extremely zealous.

As for the fate of the defendants, no one is going to prison for hunting without a license or taking game out of season. Most of the charges listed are likely to result in fines, the possible forfeiture of vehicles and weapons, the loss of license privileges and perhaps some form of probation.
The possession of raptors may be a serious offense but I don't know the circumstances.

A nearly year long investigation culminating in the execution of a search warrant sounds like the defendants had been a thorn in the side of law enforcement and the police just made a project out of them.

The CO’s in MI are highly trained and work diligently to protect state/public property. Taking a elk from the small herd will not be lightly dealt with. When I was a youngster resident there it was a dream to get a tag. These guys will get sympathy from no body.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not questioning the training and diligence of the game wardens; they did a fine job.
It is simply a matter of the punishment available. No one is going to prison for hunting without a license or taking an animal out of season.

[Plate plinker]

https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79136_79772_80265-149754--,00.html

Found another article that states mandatory 5-90 days jail and a $5000 fine. Plus extra dollars per point on a bull. Hit em where it hurts.

[35isit]

Those illegally taken animals were stolen from all of us, especially the residents of MI. What they done impacted every sportsman in that area. Case in point. A guy in our area bragged how he killed every deer he saw. Whether on his place or someone else's. He used landowner, state wide, his wife's and his children's tags. Who knows how many if any he didn't check? On the adjoining properties to him deer populations dropped to near zero. The local game warden was advised to his braggadocio. After an investigation by the warden the deer eventually came back. Actually a few wall hangers have been harvested.

[Petrol & Powder]

https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79136_79772_80265-149754--,00.html

Found another article that states mandatory 5-90 days jail and a $5000 fine. Plus extra dollars per point on a bull. Hit em where it hurts.

I don't see a $5000 fine listed in any of those punishments and most of those listed violations use the words, "OR" and "Up To" when describing the potential jail time.

So an offender would likely get a fine and a few days in jail and the judge could SUSPEND the jail time, so that would be only a fine.

[farmbif]

they should be strung up by their trigger fingers

[Petrol & Powder]

From the link: https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79136_79772_80265-149754--,00.html

Violation of permits, season, bag limits, shooting hours and methods of taking game - Potential punishment - $50 to $500 fine and/or up to 90 days in jail. That means a person convicted could receive a $50 fine and no jail time.

Illegal taking/possession of deer, bear or wild turkey, Potential punishment- $200 to $1,000 fine and 5 to 90 days in jail, restitution of $1,500 for bear, $1,000 for deer/turkey, plus revocation of hunting licenses for remainder of year convicted, plus next three consecutive years. That means the convicted could receive a $200 fine, 5 days in jail with all 5 days suspended, be ordered to pay restitution and lose his hunting license for 3 years. (a savvy defense attorney would continue the case beyond the remainder of the first hunting season so that the maximum suspension of license would only be 3 years.)


Illegal use of artificial light with bow and arrow, crossbow or firearm. Potential Punishment - $100 to $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail, plus revocation of hunting licenses for remainder of year convicted, plus next consecutive year. This means the convicted could receive a $100 fine and lose his hunting license for 1 year.

Carrying a firearm while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Potential Punishment - $500 fine and/or up to 93 days in jail. That could be a $500 fine and no jail time.

Multiple offender: three convictions within preceding five years. Potential punishment -$500 to $2,000 fine and 10 to 180 days in jail. This could be a $500 fine, 10 days in jail with all of the jail time suspended.


Judges always have the discretion to suspend part or all of a punishment unless the law specifically limits that discretion.

[RogerDat]

Poachers and sign shooters make some view all hunting and gun owners in a more negative light. I often hear stories that show that those who ignore game and hunting laws like all thieves get greedy. The chance of getting caught on a single violation is pretty small. However when greed leads to multiple violations the cumulative risk of getting caught one of those times becomes much higher.

It is the squirrel rule I made up on the back deck. Squirrel has to beat the dog to the tree or the fence every time, dog only has to win that race once for the squirrel to lose big.

Poaching elk is to steal a limited resource from those who play by the rules as well as puts the overall health and availability of the elk herd at risk.

I was particularly dismayed at the illegal feeding operation. Bait feeders are a prime way that some devastating deer diseases are spread. The deer are essentially eating grain that other deer have slobbered on and breathed all over. Unnaturally high amount of that type of contact compared to grazing behavior.

[blackthorn]

golly; i hope that none of the local honest hunters don't try to inflict some sort of revenge.

I found the wording in this post a bit confusing, but after careful study, I agree 100%!!!

[megasupermagnum]

I'm one of the rare ones who does not support the extreme penalties we are seeing today for poaching. The big time repeat offenders are one thing. I remember a guy not too long ago who was caught with something like 100 bluegill over the limit. Then later caught doing the same exact thing. Yeah, that guy is a problem.

For so many cases, the punishment is so far exceeded I can't believe people agree with some of this stuff. I can't find the article now, but there was a group of guys, I think 3 of them, fishing on Lake of the Woods. They were caught on their way back with 4 walleye over the limit. Those guys lost everything, the truck, the boat, suspended licenses, you name it. And the fines were crazy, something like $10,000 per fish. Did they break the law? Yeah. Is it reasonable to destroy 3 peoples lives over a small number of fish? Absolutely not.

This father and son definitely broke the law, but it sure doesn't seem worthy of all but hanging them like I read here. Bedbugbilly says shooting an elk, deer, and turkey without a license are no different than the rioting this is burning buildings and killing people. Really?:killingpc

Someone once asked me, "have you ever met a game warden who was nice to you". I thought, and thought, and after a while I said yes. There has been a couple times, but overall experiences have been very poor. What a miserable job, with a bunch of miserable people. Until they are brought in check, I have no respect for them. That's the crux of the problem. There are so few game wardens, and the general solution has been to completely let them loose, they are more free of the law than any police officer. All this leads to is poor results. Fines are not the solution either. They can already take dang near every thing you own. If that doesn't stop someone, why would taking even more help?

It's kind of like gun control. Why would you continue to punish the law abiding, when the criminals are going to do it no matter what?

[Petrol & Powder]

I've been listening to exaggerated tales about horribly disproportionate consequences for minor offenses most of my life.
Here's how they go, "I heard about these guys that got caught double parking and they were thrown in prison for 40 years........"

Those stories have lots of origins; some are created by defense attorneys to generate sympathy for their poor little client that was picked on by the evil, all powerful, government (and then regurgitated by the gullible press). Some are created by the criminals themselves (No I wasn't the get-away driver for that bank robbery. I was just double parked and I got 10 years :( ) A lot are just stories that get added to over time to make them more entertaining.

Whenever you hear some story that sounds like there was some horribly disproportionate outcome, ask yourself, who would benefit from creating that story"?

And if you need convincing that people distort the truth to further an agenda, watch the next riot and listen to the supporters as they label it a "peaceful protest".

[megasupermagnum]

I've been listening to exaggerated tales about horribly disproportionate consequences for minor offenses most of my life.
Here's how they go, "I heard about these guys that got caught double parking and they were thrown in prison for 40 years........"

Those stories have lots of origins; some are created by defense attorneys to generate sympathy for their poor little client that was picked on by the evil, all powerful, government (and then regurgitated by the gullible press). Some are created by the criminals themselves (No I wasn't the get-away driver for that bank robbery. I was just double parked and I got 10 years :( ) A lot are just stories that get added to over time to make them more entertaining.

Whenever you hear some story that sounds like there was some horribly disproportionate outcome, ask yourself, who would benefit from creating that story"?

And if you need convincing that people distort the truth to further an agenda, watch the next riot and listen to the supporters as they label it a "peaceful protest".

I've got plenty of 1st hand stories of game wardens.

One of the earliest I can remember was my brother and I, ice fishing with dad. I doubt I was more than 5 years old. As kids do, we ran out the door to play. Waiting at the door was the game warden, who quickly walked in the door and gave dad a ticket for multiple fishing lines (only allowed 2).

There was the time not long after that the game warden showed up unannounced one day and started rummaging through out things. Mom went outside to find out who it was (these sneaky guys park down the street and wear all brown). I do not know what happened after that, but after being satisfied we did not have an over limit of game, he left.

When I was just beginning to really hunt, the local game warden out in Douglas county was a real dingus. He would hide up in a treestand, on private land, and watch us. Lo and behold, I saw a few technicalities he got us on. One of the less impressive ones was back when the definition of tagging animals was not so clear. My uncle had drug a deer to the truck before tagging it. Back then you couldn't even roll an animal over without a tag on it.

It was likely only my 2nd time out in the deer stand with dad, and the warden decided to wander up, prime time for deer, all brown clothes, not a spec of orange on him. He starts complaining to dad how he was not wearing enough orange. At the time, the law said that only the torso needed orange, and dad had an entire orange overall suit on, but a natural fur hat. Since no law was broken, he went on his way, except for ruining my day.

Fishing has not been as bad, and these are the only times I've had good experiences. I was one of the earlier converts to "quick-strike" rigs for live bait for northerns and musky. I was experimenting with my own before it was a common thing to see in a store. At the time, the law said that only a single hook may be used, no treble hooks. The catch was that the definition of a "lure" included up to 3 hooks, including treble hooks, however it needed to either mimic a minnow or have a spinner blade close to the first hook. This law was clearly intended for the Lindy rigs, but I built my quick strikes to meet this criteria. As a result, I started hooking more fish, and nearly eliminated gut hooking. All was good until stopped by a game warden, who just about lost it on me. I kept trying to recite the definition, which I'm sure came off as a smart ***. Eventually he found I was right, and it was not long after MN eliminated the definition, and started to allow quick strike rigs.

Ever need clarification on something? Don't ever bother to ask the MNDNR. I could not even guess how many questions I have asked. Many over emails, many over phone. Always the same either I'll direct your call, or direct your email to someone. And you will never hear from them again.

I have never been fined or ticketed myself. It terrifies me to no end though, that one small mistake is the the difference between now and loosing everything I have. One fish over the limit because I failed to see a special regulation on a lake, or one duck because I either miscounted or shot two with one shot, anything can happen, and they can take everything I own. It isn't right.

[Petrol & Powder]

................

I have never been fined or ticketed myself. It terrifies me to no end though, that one small mistake is the the difference between now and loosing everything I have. One fish over the limit because I failed to see a special regulation on a lake, or one duck because I either miscounted or shot two with one shot, anything can happen, and they can take everything I own. It isn't right.

Really ???

Why are you "terrified"?

How could you "lose everything you have"?

What laws are you violating that would result in the state, "taking everything you own"?

You watched some family members receive a few summons for violations that you admit were actual violations and that instills a lifelong fear??????

Maybe you should get some counseling for those unfounded fears.

[megasupermagnum]

Really ???

Why are you "terrified"?

How could you "lose everything you have"?

What laws are you violating that would result in the state, "taking everything you own"?

You watched some family members receive a few summons for violations that you admit were actual violations and that instills a lifelong fear??????

Maybe you should get some counseling for those unfounded fears.

One mistake, that's all it takes. We all make mistakes, we all break laws unintentionally, don't kid yourself. A good example is all the AIS laws we now have. Ever fish with leeches? Ever change the water in their container when you leave? Me either, and I don't know anyone that has. If caught, that is a $500 fine in Minnesota. I duck hunt a lot. All it could take is to accidentally shoot a "mallard" that turns out to be that 4th wood duck. Run into the wrong game warden and I could loose my shotguns, boat, truck, everything I had that day.

[Petrol & Powder]

I guess I'll just to go through life kidding myself because I don't live in constant fear of receiving a Summons for a minor Misdemeanor offense.
Even if I inadvertently violate some minor misdemeanor law, the punishment for it will not be: death, imprisonment, flogging or "Losing Everything I Have".

[Divedigger]

Here in Tn yrs ago game warden told of taking trucks used to transport illeagel deer by taking blood sample from tailgate and matching it to carcass

[Petrol & Powder]

Well, I'll be sure not to commit any GROSS misdemeanors that may result in jail time but usually just result in fines.

[toallmy]

I have seen the feds in action & ain't pretty

[Petrol & Powder]

And I've seen people perpetuate stories of harsh outcomes for minor game violations that were not true.

[white eagle]

from where I sit I do not see any hunting involved with these slobbering poachers
it's to bad the father taught his son the ways of the scum bag

[Omega]

And I've seen people perpetuate stories of harsh outcomes for minor game violations that were not true.
I mostly support the wildlife guys, but I lost my favorite rifle and one year of hunting to some BS. Learned that the particular guy had a bad rep for doing things like that, and judge took all of 5 minutes to rule against me. It was more expensive to fight it, but I was not guilty so wasn't about to plead guilty. I have had tickets issued in the past, and while I thought it was BS, I was guilty of it so paid my fine. One was for not having registered a 2 man raft with a trolling motor, and the other was for being about 10 yards into another county, pre GPS and no markings, where centerfire rifles were not allowed.

Another thing I don't support, what-so-ever, is them being able to search vehicles without probable cause, and able to place cameras on private property without a warrant. I get being able to check private properties during hunting seasons, as most hunting happens out in the woods, but leaving cameras out on private property, no, not without a warrant.

[Petrol & Powder]

Omega - I hear you and there is a lot to be learned in what you wrote:

The first is while you did suffer the consequences of your actions, those consequences were proportionate to the violation. They didn't involve incarceration or "the loss of EVERYTHING you owned". So once again, while minor game law violations have some consequences, we're not talking about capital punishment, prison or some other 8th amendment "cruel and unusual" type punishment.

As for forfeiture of vehicles and weapons used in connection with some game law violations, that's NOT the game warden inflicting that loss; that's the legislature. Ultimately, it wasn't the game warden that seized your rifle, it was the court acting in accordance with the law enacted by the legislature. So while you may not like it, it wasn't the officer's choice.

As for the long standing myth that game wardens have the ability to search vehicles without probable cause, that's not completely accurate.
Game wardens, like any other police officer, have the authority to search a vehicle, without a warrant; when they have probable cause to support that search. This exception to the 4th amendment search warrant requirement is established in the case Carroll v. U.S. (1925) You can read it here and it is STILL controlling case law:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/267/132.html

Because the authority of a game warden to act as a police officer has been challenged, many states have passed specific laws to address a game warden's authority to search a vehicle without a warrant for game law violations. If game wardens had the authority to just randomly search any vehicle, police officers in urban areas would simply bring a game warden with them and ask the game warden to search every car the police officer wanted to search. It doesn't work that way.

So while game wardens do have the authority to SOMETIMES search vehicles without a warrant when they have probable cause of a game law violation, they DO NOT have the absolute authority to just search any vehicle on a whim. This lie has been repeated for so many years people cite it as fact.

As for placing cameras on private property without a warrant, that is also well established in case law for many decades. Privately owned land is not necessarily the same thing as the inside of your home. Open field searches do not require search warrants. Your right to privacy in your home is very well protected but your right to privacy on land you own is not the same thing. The courts have been very clear on this issue. Outside of the curtilage of your home (the area immediately around your house where you have an expectation of privacy) the police DO NOT need a search warrant.
Law enforcement can go upon the land of another person, even posted land of another person, to fulfill some law enforcement need.
There is FAR less 4th amendment protection to land than there is to persons, dwellings, records, etc.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/open_field_doctrine

SO, you may not LIKE the fact that the police can go upon the lands of another and even leave a camera there, but it is not a 4th amendment violation.

[toallmy]

I noticed you mentioned the court system Petrol and Powder - so I will start there
The state marine resource officers are a group of fine people doing the best they can do to enforce the law and protect the state's natural resources . The fines generally start at around a hundred bucks + court cost for the first violation , so if you make a simple mistake it's quite reasonable . The fines go up the next offense - so the more hard headed you are the more you pay for the lessons . That's the state
I can say the game wardens in my little piece of the world are just as reasonable , I have hunted here for 40 years and have never had a warden stop my hunt to check my license , on top of that with a simple phone call they are happy to help with information , or actually come in person to be of assistance . I sat in a courtroom in the 80s while the judge issued me a fine for around a thousand and seized my rifle , I had it coming and deserved it - the judge could have taken my truck as well . This is all fine and done out in the open in a court room .
Now I'll get to the problem with the feds for you Petrol & Powder
Abuse of the Lacey Act
Excessive Civil Penalties
It's a real thing and it really happens

[Petrol & Powder]

toallmy, I appreciate your honesty and I think you have a good grasp on the situation.

We have laws which means someone has to enforce those laws. The people enforcing those laws are never the people that enacted those laws.


We have both state and federal criminal justice systems in the U.S.A. and while federal game laws can potentially carry harsher penalties than some state laws, I can only remember two cases when the feds got involved in the prosecution of a felony game violation. Both of those cases were larger conspiracies that involved significant federal crimes with lots of players. One was the systematic killing of birds of prey for money and the other was a large criminal organization killing bears for Asian customers.

On the state side of things, very few game laws even carry a jail sentence and when they do, active jail time is almost never ordered by the court.

For the most part, game laws are like parking laws and vehicle inspection laws. We want people to comply with the law therefore we must enforce the law, but nobody is going to prison over this stuff.

As a fellow Virginian, you may be familiar with our classification of misdemeanors. A class 3 or 4 misdemeanor doesn't even carry a possibility of a jail sentence. Most Virginia game laws are class 3 or 4 misdemeanors and the few that are not (like taking deer with a spotlight, a class 2) seldom result in jail time.

Even on the federal side of the fence, most game violations are handled in Federal Magistrate Court (the federal equivalent of General District court were most misdemeanors are tried).

[megasupermagnum]

Speak for yourself. I would trade having my hunting rights revoked for years for 90 days in jail.

I will say not all states are the same. South Dakota is phenomenal. The one and only warden I talked to, I went looking for. He was very courteous, and even told me where I could find swans, which is what I was hunting. Emails to SDGFD are returned within a day or three, and answer any questions I have.

That isn't Minnesota.I've never had either an email or phone question answered, and I don't know anyone who has. One time I even called the warden for my area directly, his number being listed multiple times online. His response "how did you get this number?" Eventually I asked my question, and was stuck with the same old MN DNR answer "ill have to call you back" Of course that never happens.

They don't answer questions about their muddy laws, and they follow you like you are a criminal the rest of the time. They ruin hunts just to bully you.

Back to the father and son, a reasonable fine would suffice. The way people talk, they could spend a year in jail, fined $20,000, loose their vehicles, guns, and who knows what else, and people would still cry they got off easy.

[toallmy]

Speak for yourself. I would trade having my hunting rights revoked for years for 90 days in jail.

I will say not all states are the same. South Dakota is phenomenal. The one and only warden I talked to, I went looking for. He was very courteous, and even told me where I could find swans, which is what I was hunting. Emails to SDGFD are returned within a day or three, and answer any questions I have.

That isn't Minnesota.I've never had either an email or phone question answered, and I don't know anyone who has. One time I even called the warden for my area directly, his number being listed multiple times online. His response "how did you get this number?" Eventually I asked my question, and was stuck with the same old MN DNR answer "ill have to call you back" Of course that never happens.

They don't answer questions about their muddy laws, and they follow you like you are a criminal the rest of the time. They ruin hunts just to bully you.

Back to the father and son, a reasonable fine would suffice. The way people talk, they could spend a year in jail, fined $20,000, loose their vehicles, guns, and who knows what else, and people would still cry they got off easy.

I watched a few of those shows on Northern Law , where the wardens up north seem generally reasonable . But honestly I have no experience with out of state hunting .
I have bumped into law enforcement officers that have ( the attitude ) throughout my life , but they seem to quickly move along . Sort of like the small town cop that wrote to many locals up for rolling stop signs on the way to work at 4-5 am , with enough complaints they generally don't stay around very long .
Written complaints go a long way . Most of the want to be Robocop type G Men don't stay around very long .

[Texas by God]

Game Wardens are human. I've met great ones and ones that needed a beating. I have no problem with them enforcing law but speaking to courteous hunters like gangsters signals personal problems to me. One spoke very disrespectfully to my wife over a forgotten tag signature and made her cry. Monday morning I was in his superiors office who made the jerk videotape a complete apology on my phone to show my wife. I then showed it to every LGS and farm store in the county. Months later he was replaced by the county's first woman game warden who was polite, professional and feared by poachers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bakerjw]

Back when I lived in Illinois, we had a very over aggressive game warden. He was over the top. There is a small town called Browning that has a lot of duck hunters. The powers that be were concerned that this warden would stir up the locals and that they'd find him floating in a drainage ditch. He was reassigned to a different area of the state.

[Petrol & Powder]

So there's a: Game Warden, Police Officer, WalMart Manager, UPS driver, whatever.....
Someone doesn't like that person and then one day that person relocates. And the automatic assumption is the person was moved against their will as some type of punitive transfer.

The transfer couldn't possibly be voluntary, the result of a promotion or the organization just needed to fill the remote position.

[Shawlerbrook]

We should substitute “poaching” for “illegal hunting” in the title. What they did was not hunting.

[megasupermagnum]

Game Wardens are human. I've met great ones and ones that needed a beating. I have no problem with them enforcing law but speaking to courteous hunters like gangsters signals personal problems to me. One spoke very disrespectfully to my wife over a forgotten tag signature and made her cry. Monday morning I was in his superiors office who made the jerk videotape a complete apology on my phone to show my wife. I then showed it to every LGS and farm store in the county. Months later he was replaced by the county's first woman game warden who was polite, professional and feared by poachers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The two nicest MN game wardens I have met were women. I wish women were more involved with the DNR, it would make it better.

[chuckbuster]

"Hunting" needs to be taken out of the headline. There is no such thing as "Illegal Hunting"

[ourflat]

Hunger is a powerful force; driving a desperate family to do desperate things to put a meal on a table. More and more families are finding themselves in this situation with little to no outside assistance because of the lack of operational food pantries. Our supply chains are lacking and the price of food has shot through the roof! Super inflation is not expected to yield until the Feds decide to increase interests rates that will have unintended consequences for everyone living in the USA. Yes gloom and doom, but reality!

I have no problem with a family harvesting wildlife for survival period!

[chuckbuster]

No such thing as “Illegal Hunting”. It is Poaching. No similarity to hunting

[RogerDat]

One does not have a freezer full of game and multiple trophy's and claim sustenance hunting, at least not if they don't want to judge to chuckle as he drops the hammer at your sentencing.

I have known people who do hunt to supplement their food, they dislike poachers and trespassers as much or more than most. Too often poachers will overhunt or employ methods that in effect would be taking food off their table as trophies.

We had a poacher that was busted with a dozen deer hanging in his garage. Between shining and bait piles he was wiping out a herd or two in an area. Other hunters reported him when he started getting people prime cuts from his hanging carcasses using a chainsaw.

I think the DNR seldom take cars and houses which I am somewhat skeptical of as putting people out on the street or taking their means of making a living or getting around is a bit extreme. I do think things such as equipment and quad runners should definitely be confiscated. Even hunting property or cabins might be on the block for egregious poaching without bother myself.

[Bmi48219]

We lived in rural SE Michigan for 15 years. In the late 80’s the DNR tried transplanting Szechuan Pheasants in the area we purchased our home. The following winter I pulled into our driveway after working a midnight shift. A DNR truck pulled in behind me. The two men got out and said their info indicated several Szechuan pheasants were at the back of my property and asked permission to look for them. After I agreed they each put on what looked like a directional tv antenna and headset and plodded through the snow to the swamp behind our pond.
An hour later they were loading up and said they had found some birds that had entered mink & weasel holes and died when they couldn’t back out. A couple more had frozen to death in snow.
We had seen these pheasants on our driveway several times in the fall. Never imagined they were wearing transmitters. I would think the DNR makes similar efforts to keep track of elk, moose, bobcats, cougars etc. the first turkeys they transplanted were wearing wires.
I’ve been told Florida’s FWC has transmitters on the 90 or so remaining Florida Panthers in the state.
Poachers beware.

[tankgunner59]

I don't get to hunt any more due to lack of a place to legally hunt, I would still love to if I could find a landowner who would give permission. When I was hunting it wasn't about the law it was the honor system, if I didn't have permission I was honorable and didn't hunt. Besides I have friends who are willing to help me out with game if they have what they need.

[trails4u]

"I duck hunt a lot. All it could take is to accidentally shoot a "mallard" that turns out to be that 4th wood duck. Run into the wrong game warden and I could loose my shotguns, boat, truck, everything I had that day."

I can't fathom mistaking a mallard for a wood duck... The body shape and flight patterns couldn't be any more distinguishable. As a duck hunter....if you shoot a mallard thinking it's a wood duck....well....

[Gator 45/70]

Lived in Bridgeport, Mi. A guy around the corner poached on our 10 acres at night with night vision scope. DNR never caught him. Found his hunting stand in our property about 10 yards in. He was always pulling down the property markers & signs. He was the older brother of an a$$hole I went to school with. The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Down here the stand would be mine! Caught a couple of stands on my lease property one complete with feeders, Got pictures of the trespasser's on the camera, Sent the pictures down to the local Dairy Queen, 15 Minutes later I had names
Being a nice guy I sent the local Deputy to inform them remove the hunting equipment or it's mine.
It was pulled out of there.
Added note the people at Dairy Queen know everyone...lol

[downzero]

I believe in Michigan they can confiscate and sell any thing used in taking processing or storing game taken illegally. SO firearms, cars trucks, houses land any and everything.

The Supreme Court of the United States declared such shenanigans unconstitutional last year, so you won't be seeing that sort of forfeiture ever again.

[fiberoptik]

His stand was an actual ice fishing hut dragged in with a cut trail for his quad. Too lazy to walk 500 yards! I thought about boobytrapping it.
Could hear him shooting late at night.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Our warden said they spend little time on deer hunters. Hunters are hard pressed to control herds I guess. With fishing on the other hand there is very vigorous enforcement.

[fiberoptik]

They didn’t seem to care much. Bet if he accidentally got shot they might have cared. Residential area, not 30 yards from the nearest house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gator 45/70]

They didn’t seem to care much. Bet if he accidentally got shot they might have cared. Residential area, not 30 yards from the nearest house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I swear I don't know who put that target of a big ol buck on the side of you're icehouse/fishing/night-time hunting stand?

Poormans Napalm is good stuff btw

[ih772]

Hunger is a powerful force; driving a desperate family to do desperate things to put a meal on a table. More and more families are finding themselves in this situation with little to no outside assistance because of the lack of operational food pantries. Our supply chains are lacking and the price of food has shot through the roof! Super inflation is not expected to yield until the Feds decide to increase interests rates that will have unintended consequences for everyone living in the USA. Yes gloom and doom, but reality!

I have no problem with a family harvesting wildlife for survival period!

There isn't anyone starving in the USA. There's plenty of free food and free money to pay for the food. Having to hunt to keep from starving to death is a myth in this day and age.

[ih772]

One mistake, that's all it takes. We all make mistakes, we all break laws unintentionally, don't kid yourself. A good example is all the AIS laws we now have. Ever fish with leeches? Ever change the water in their container when you leave? Me either, and I don't know anyone that has. If caught, that is a $500 fine in Minnesota. I duck hunt a lot. All it could take is to accidentally shoot a "mallard" that turns out to be that 4th wood duck. Run into the wrong game warden and I could loose my shotguns, boat, truck, everything I had that day.Then stop sky busting! If you can't tell the difference between a wood duck and a mallard then you have no business duck hunting.

[ourflat]

There isn't anyone starving in the USA. There's plenty of free food and free money to pay for the food. Having to hunt to keep from starving to death is a myth in this day and age.

Let’s agree to disagree!

[Pressman]

We can agree that this discussion has turned to personal insults, so it is closed.